GRP lifespan
 

How long should a modern GRP hull lasts as compared to one made 10 years
ago?

And how old is considered too old when taking a boat offshore into potential
rough conditions?

--
Adrian Smith

GRP lifespan
 

Adrian Smith wrote:

How long should a modern GRP hull lasts as compared to one made 10 years
ago?

And how old is considered too old when taking a boat offshore into
potential rough conditions?


Nic 32s were first made more than 40 years ago and are still making
trans-oceanic voyages. They were designed using scantlings scaled for
timber construction, and the assumption was that if it looked a bit skinny
it was better to beef it up a bit. Of course, a modern hull is very
different.

I would suggest the question should not be how it lasts, but how well it has
been designed and built.

I would be very happy to take some modern boats round the world (if I wanted
to, which I don't). Others I would be unhappy taking out of harbour if the
weather looked nasty.

GRP lifespan
 

"Adrian Smith" wrote in message
...
How long should a modern GRP hull lasts as compared to one made 10 years
ago?
And how old is considered too old when taking a boat offshore into
potential rough conditions?
Adrian Smith

There are so many variables, I would think it's virtually impossible to give
a definitive answer.
A well laid up GRP hull should last indefinately, provided it's looked
after. GRP lay-ups vary wildly from make to make and generally speaking,
older offshore boats have thicker hulls utilising low tech materials, many
of which I suspect will outlive more modern lighter build, high tech ones.
In fact, a good
10-20 year old Hallberg Rassey, Contest, Rival, Westerly, Moody etc. may
have a few blisters but will still be stronger than many brand new popular
EU production line boats are today. Having said that, they probably won't
sail as quickly but I know which one I would rather rely on in rough
conditions.
There is no "age" limit for an offshore boat, it depends more on the
build quality, suitability of design and whether the necessary maintenance
and replacement of fittings, rig, etc. has been carried out properly over
the years.
Graham.

GRP lifespan
 

Graham Frankland wrote:

a good 10-20 year old Hallberg Rassey, Contest, Rival, Westerly, Moody etc. may
have a few blisters but will still be stronger than many brand new popular
EU production line boats are today.

Oh no, here we go again :-)
Nobody mention the 'B' word...

GRP lifespan
 

Adrian Smith wrote:
How long should a modern GRP hull lasts as compared to one made 10 years
ago?


The material, design, type & execution of the lay-up will
matter a lot more than whether it popped out of the mold
last week or 10 years ago.

About the only maintenance issue is if it's cored, then the
skins must stay bonded to the core and no water should be
allowed in (ie deck fittings properly thru bolted & bedded).

If you're talking *only* about the structural integrity of a
fiberglass hull & deck, it should last forever within a
certain range of stress. The more strongly it's built, the
wider range of stress it can take. Once it is loaded /
stressed enough to break a few of the bonds within the
lamination, it is said to be "fatigued" just like metal that
gets bent back & forth. Fiberglass has some advantages over
metal in that it can bend further without fatigue, and can
accumulate a higher number of fatigue cycles, but that
number is not infinite. Another good thing about fiberglass
is that it's relatively easy to re-bond bulkheads & other
structural members inside.



And how old is considered too old when taking a boat offshore into potential
rough conditions?


The old-fogey brigade will insist that older is better, for
a number of reasons. Old fashioned hull & rigs can be more
seakindly (altho old running rigging & deck fittings can be
awful to cope with). Some will even claim that 'back in the
old days' the boat builders did not know how strong
fiberglass was, so they made it incredibly thick & strong.
The fact is that engineering data was available on
fiberglass from the early 1950s on, readily available to
those who cared to look... is ignorance a good excuse?
Another fact is that resin/fiber ratios in many older hulls
is poor.

It's more of an issue about the functioning of all
systems... rig, plumbing, electrical, electronic (if any)
than the age of the hull.

Hope this clears some things up.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

GRP lifespan
 

"peter" wrote in message
ups.com...
Graham Frankland wrote:

a good 10-20 year old Hallberg Rassey, Contest, Rival, Westerly, Moody
etc. may
have a few blisters but will still be stronger than many brand new
popular
EU production line boats are today.

Oh no, here we go again :-)
Nobody mention the 'B' word...


Are we saying that modern EU production line boats are not as strong as the
ones made in 'the good old days' when things was done proper:-)

I'm new here, but if the 'B' word is Beneteau. How strong and what is the
durability of their hulls?

--
Adrian Smith

GRP lifespan
 

I'm new here, but if the 'B' word is Beneteau. How strong and what is the
durability of their hulls?

--

Perhaps once upon a time it referred to Beneteau, but there's a new bad boy
on the block..... :-)

GRP lifespan
 

Commodore Joe Redcloud© wrote:
The reason early fiberglass boats were built on the heavy side was not
because builders didn't know how strong it was. That may have been a
factor for a few, as not all boat builders are on the cutting edge of
technologhy at all times.

The real issue was that builders needed to convince non-technical boat
buyers and traditionalists that fiberglass was as good or better than
wood. If the material looked too skimpy, it made nervous buyers think
"cheap and flimsy". Even today, wood boat fans derisively refer to
fiberglass boats as "clorox bottles.

It is mostly a preception and marketing issue, not an engineering
issue.


Commodore Joe Redcloud©

I get that irrational fear that the boat is not as strong as it should
be every time I am rummaging around in the cockpit locker and see
daylight through the hull. Maybe builders of modern boats should
include a layer of opaque resin?

Nick

GRP lifespan
 

GRP lay-ups vary wildly from make to make and generally speaking,
older offshore boats have thicker hulls utilising low tech materials, many
of which I suspect will outlive more modern lighter build, high tech ones.

I was interested to see the wreck of a Joint Services Victoria 34 (Ensis) in
Cherbourg last year. I own one of the Halcyon 27s that were replaced by the
Victorias in 1990.

I was amazed how thick our Halcyon's hull is when I had to cut into it once.
The topsides are half an inch thick and it gets progressively thicker as you
go down; when I installed the log I was cutting through well over an inch of
dense GRP.

Ensis on the other hand had a sizeable hole and she wasn't half as think at
any point, the thickness also seemed to be uniform. Much more what I would
have expected actually.

David

GRP lifespan
 

"peter" wrote in message
oups.com...
Adrian Smith wrote:

Are we saying that modern EU production line boats are not as strong as
the
ones made in 'the good old days' when things was done proper:-)

Yes, and no. Some say that a heavily laid-up boat must be intrinsically
stronger and more seaworthy than a lightweight boat. Others argue that
if a lightweight boat has adequate strength in the necessary areas then
materials saving in areas where strength is not required is not a
problem.

I'm new here, but if the 'B' word is Beneteau

No, another B.


What manufacturer is the 'B' then.

What manufacturers should one avoid if any?

--
Adrian Smith

GRP lifespan
 

Adrian Smith wrote:
"peter" wrote in message
oups.com...
Adrian Smith wrote:

Are we saying that modern EU production line boats are not as strong as
the
ones made in 'the good old days' when things was done proper:-)

Yes, and no. Some say that a heavily laid-up boat must be intrinsically
stronger and more seaworthy than a lightweight boat. Others argue that
if a lightweight boat has adequate strength in the necessary areas then
materials saving in areas where strength is not required is not a
problem.

I'm new here, but if the 'B' word is Beneteau

No, another B.


What manufacturer is the 'B' then.

What manufacturers should one avoid if any?

I think maybe Bavaria.

Speaking for myself I've never had problems on the three Bavaria's I've
sailed but I have a friend who had terrible problems with Opal the
British importer.

GRP lifespan
 

"Adrian Smith" wrote in message
...
"peter" wrote in message
ups.com...
Graham Frankland wrote:
a good 10-20 year old Hallberg Rassey, Contest, Rival, Westerly, Moody
etc. may have a few blisters but will still be stronger than many brand
new popular EU production line boats are today.

Oh no, here we go again :-)
Nobody mention the 'B' word...

Are we saying that modern EU production line boats are not as strong as
the ones made in 'the good old days' when things was done proper:-)
I'm new here, but if the 'B' word is Beneteau. How strong and what is the
durability of their hulls?
Adrian Smith

Yes and No. What's "done proper" as you put it, depends on the viewpoint
and proposed use. Not everyone (me included) can afford whatever our
lottery dream boat is, be it a HR, Rival Bowman, Pacific Seacraft or
whatever but, for some reason, we always seem to use them as a benchmark
when comparing "affordable" boats costing 75% less.

Under the EC Rules, boats are categorised for a purpose but, don't imagine
that because a boat may meet the stability/righting criteria for "A" Ocean
use, it's build quality is suitable for repeated heavy weather sailing or,
its design is suitable for extended offshore passages.

OTOH for the vast majority on a limited budget who mainly day or weekend
sail in coastal waters and have a two week summer holiday on board with the
kids, they're fine.

Graham.

GRP lifespan
 

Don't know about the hull but to me Bavaria feels more well build than
Beneteau....

/Bjarke

wrote in message
ups.com...
Adrian Smith wrote:
"peter" wrote in message
oups.com...
Adrian Smith wrote:

Are we saying that modern EU production line boats are not as strong
as
the
ones made in 'the good old days' when things was done proper:-)

Yes, and no. Some say that a heavily laid-up boat must be intrinsically
stronger and more seaworthy than a lightweight boat. Others argue that
if a lightweight boat has adequate strength in the necessary areas then
materials saving in areas where strength is not required is not a
problem.

I'm new here, but if the 'B' word is Beneteau

No, another B.


What manufacturer is the 'B' then.

What manufacturers should one avoid if any?

I think maybe Bavaria.

Speaking for myself I've never had problems on the three Bavaria's I've
sailed but I have a friend who had terrible problems with Opal the
British importer.

GRP lifespan
 

I fly glassfibre aircraft, sailplanes actually - structure lifespan is
a topic of interest when you are at 20 000' above ground level flying
at 200 kph plus and the outside air temperature is below -15 degrees
Celcius.

The technical body that co-ordinates the efforts of a lot of research
and development around sailplanes ( OSTIV ) recently published a rather
reassuring article giving an estimated service lifespan of a glassfibre
sailplane of around half a million flying hours. and that was with a
safety factor of at least 1 order of magnitude.

Although yacht hulls are stressed by rigging and water loads I suspect
that the stresses involved ( in a normal cruising boat ) are somewhat
less than experienced by an aircraft structure. The wings on my 25m
span Nimbus regularly deflect by a metre or so in normal flight. Even
using the same figure of half a million hours one gets 47 odd years of
'use', not just sitting in a berth.

I would say that for all intents and purposes the useable lifespan of a
'well built' glassfibre hull is probably in the order of several
hundred years with only minimal attention to care.

Of course if you insist on building a hull only millimetres thick out
of Nomex, Kevlar, Carbon and other exotics, sail it in across Biscay in
a gale with only one hull of three in the water and driving through 5m
high swells then 'all bets are off' and you may well run into
mechanical limits of the structure.

Ian

GRP lifespan
 

Bjarke Christensen wrote:
Don't know about the hull but to me Bavaria feels more well build than
Beneteau....

Would you mind telling us what's your opinion based at? I've never sailed a
Bavaria, but I've been to them in boat shows. It seemed to me that at least
deck-equipment were much better in Beneteau First -line than in Bavarias.
According to this wast experience I have - I'd have Beneteau First over
Bavaria anyday ;)


--
Markus

GRP lifespan
 

Just the feel when touching the interior, the lockers, the wood and so on.
One thing I've noticed is that the floor of the Bavaria is more firm/stable
than the one of Beneteau. But I agree that it's totally subjective.

I'm in no doubt that the deck fitting of First is superior, but you have to
compare apples to apples, which in this case is Bavaria Cruiser to Beneteau
Oceanis.

Bjarke

"Markus Rautanen" wrote in message
...
Bjarke Christensen wrote:
Don't know about the hull but to me Bavaria feels more well build than
Beneteau....

Would you mind telling us what's your opinion based at? I've never sailed
a Bavaria, but I've been to them in boat shows. It seemed to me that at
least deck-equipment were much better in Beneteau First -line than in
Bavarias. According to this wast experience I have - I'd have Beneteau
First over Bavaria anyday ;)


--
Markus

GRP lifespan
 

You should compare modern GRP to boats made in
the 1960's through the early 1970's. Those hulls will
last 100 years or longer. They will certainly outlive you.

There is not enough data on newer hulls. However,
as long as you patch the cracks they should last just
as long--assuming you make it back to a travel lift
in time.

Although an argument could be made that flexing absorbs
energy, however, I find the concept disquieting.

Still, in either case, failures will occur due to repetitive
stresses. A solid hull in general will last longer than one
that will oil can. BTW, the SCRIMP boats seem
particularly strong.

I hope you are not thinking of taking that day sailor
offshore! Before you do that you should hitch a ride
a few trips to 1) see if you like it, 2) see if you can
handle the puking.

Finally, you need to stop cross posting if you want
answers in here.

"Adrian Smith" wrote
How long should a modern GRP hull lasts as compared to one made 10 years
ago?

And how old is considered too old when taking a boat offshore into
potential rough conditions?

GRP lifespan
 

It depends whether the Bavaria was made for Europe or the US.

I found the build quality in European Bavarias to be low grade.

For example. Life-line terminations. Good swages in the
US, cheap loops and clamps on a Bavaria I sailed in Barecelona.

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,
Don't know about the hull but to me Bavaria feels more well build than
Beneteau....

wrote in message

Adrian Smith wrote:
"peter" wrote
Adrian Smith wrote:
What manufacturers should one avoid if any?

I think maybe Bavaria.

Speaking for myself I've never had problems on the three Bavaria's I've
sailed but I have a friend who had terrible problems with Opal the
British importer.

GRP lifespan
 

I tought they were all build on the same factory in Germany ??

Bjarke


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
It depends whether the Bavaria was made for Europe or the US.

I found the build quality in European Bavarias to be low grade.

For example. Life-line terminations. Good swages in the
US, cheap loops and clamps on a Bavaria I sailed in Barecelona.

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,
Don't know about the hull but to me Bavaria feels more well build than
Beneteau....

wrote in message

Adrian Smith wrote:
"peter" wrote
Adrian Smith wrote:
What manufacturers should one avoid if any?

I think maybe Bavaria.

Speaking for myself I've never had problems on the three Bavaria's I've
sailed but I have a friend who had terrible problems with Opal the
British importer.

GRP lifespan
 

Thats because your a fool.

What other brain dead retard would sign a newgroup like you do?

Get with it Gert you
dedumb****enfartenzootensnowinplowinbackwoddsdumbf uckinswedishloserwithoutaounceofbrintofartennoogen slackermofodipr****longwindenmother****er.

RB
35s5
NY

GRP lifespan
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Thats because your a fool.
That's because you're a fool.

GRP lifespan
 

Markus Rautanen wrote:
Bjarke Christensen wrote:

Don't know about the hull but to me Bavaria feels more well build than
Beneteau....

Would you mind telling us what's your opinion based at? I've never sailed a
Bavaria, but I've been to them in boat shows. It seemed to me that at least
deck-equipment were much better in Beneteau First -line than in Bavarias.
According to this wast experience I have - I'd have Beneteau First over
Bavaria anyday ;)

http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.

GRP lifespan
 

But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security, quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue water
sailing.

I'm talking Bavaria Cruiser vs B Oceanis Clipper.

No doubt that B. First is one of the better performance cruisers.

Bjarke


"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Markus Rautanen wrote:
Bjarke Christensen wrote:

Don't know about the hull but to me Bavaria feels more well build than
Beneteau....

Would you mind telling us what's your opinion based at? I've never sailed
a Bavaria, but I've been to them in boat shows. It seemed to me that at
least deck-equipment were much better in Beneteau First -line than in
Bavarias. According to this wast experience I have - I'd have Beneteau
First over Bavaria anyday ;)

http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.

GRP lifespan
 

Commodore Joe Redcloud© writes:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:15:35 -0500, DSK wrote:

Some will even claim that 'back in the
old days' the boat builders did not know how strong
fiberglass was, so they made it incredibly thick & strong.
The fact is that engineering data was available on
fiberglass from the early 1950s on, readily available to
those who cared to look... is ignorance a good excuse?

The reason early fiberglass boats were built on the heavy side was not
because builders didn't know how strong it was. That may have been a
factor for a few, as not all boat builders are on the cutting edge of
technologhy at all times.

Most boat builders aren't even aware of where the cutting edge is.

--
================================================== ======================
Martin Schöön

"Problems worthy of attack
prove their worth by hitting back"
Piet Hein
================================================== ======================

GRP lifespan
 

GRP lifespan
 

Bjarke Christensen wrote:
I'm in no doubt that the deck fitting of First is superior, but you
have to compare apples to apples, which in this case is Bavaria
Cruiser to Beneteau Oceanis.

I almoast wrote earlier that if you mean Beneteau Oceanis, that's a
different case. I agree with you - at least when considering older
Oceanis-models (311, 331, ...). I hear the new ones are better performing,
which wouldn't be a great accomplishment though considering the performance
of Oceanis 331... ;)


--
Markus

GRP lifespan
 

Bjarke Christensen wrote:
But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security, quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue water
sailing.

I'm talking Bavaria Cruiser vs B Oceanis Clipper.

No doubt that B. First is one of the better performance cruisers.

Bjarke

It's certainly not designed very well for performance and isn't
performing very well in these photos. I think, generally, it has to
stay together to perform.

Did the keel fall off or did the boat hit something?

Gaz

GRP lifespan
 

Gary wrote:

Did the keel fall off or did the boat hit something?

Gaz
Sorry, stupid question. I just read the pidgeon english report.

Amazing.

Gaz

GRP lifespan
 

Gary wrote:

Did the keel fall off or did the boat hit something?

Story he http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

GRP lifespan
 

I assume all Bavaria's are made in Germany.

This boat I sailed was a 34 or 35' boat. I can't recall the
exact model. It might have been a little bigger. It seemed
to be a fairly new boat that was immediately put in charter.
There were no scratches on the hull and the interior looked
showroom new.

I can offer no explanation other than I found poor lifelines
terminations in this European Bavaria I sailed. It was quite
shocking to see the wire bent in a loop and clamped with
such cheap clamps.

Given the German reputation for so many other products I
would think they could do better. Every lifeline was this way
so I assume it was not a repair but the construction standard.

There were nice swaged lifeline fittings on the US Bavaria I saw.
This was a bigger boat and my impression was that it was nice
but not what I would purchase.

Perhaps this difference was a function of the year the boat was
built, or the model, or perhaps the US brokers upgraded them
because any customer seeing poorly terminated lifelines would
have laughed and walked away thinking the rest of the boat was
built so cheaply. It gave me a very bad impression.

This Bavaria I sailed in Barcelona was paid for by my girlfriends
company, as was the whole trip. I asked the hired Captain about
the boat and he told me the reputation of the Bavaria yachts was
very poor and that it was below that of all the other major builders.
It was after this that I noticed the lifelines, and pointed them out
and he shrugged and said, "it is as I said."

It may be that a few things, easy to correct, can be found on
the boat and the overall quality might be better than supposed.

I would like to hear other examples of such poor construction
on these boats--not just general impressions.

The boat sailed ok. It was a light air day and I found the helm
somewhat neutral to steer. I would have preferred a bit more
weather helm for a better feel. To give a proper evaluation I'd
need to sail it in windier conditions. I thought the winches were
rather small, but this is typical of all production boats in this class.

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,
I tought they were all build on the same factory in Germany ??

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
It depends whether the Bavaria was made for Europe or the US.

I found the build quality in European Bavarias to be low grade.

For example. Life-line terminations. Good swages in the
US, cheap loops and clamps on a Bavaria I sailed in Barecelona.

GRP lifespan
 

You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,
But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security, quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue water
sailing.

"BrianH" wrote
http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.

GRP lifespan
 

Bart Senior wrote:
You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

I agree, it was such a silly comment I thought it better not
to respond. "It happens every day on performance boats" !!!

One of the bizarre outcomes of this incident was the
response of Bavaria Yachts who tried to initially claim the
yacht had hit a rock - since disproved - a panic damage
limitation exercise. All over the world, this model is being
modified to strengthen the keel mountings. But the
disquieting thing is of a company that lets such apparent
design and quality assurance failures out of the factory
door and its implication on the quality of other models,
perhaps unfairly. I hope so, judging by the vast masses of
charter boats out there from this company. Especially in the
Adriatic where this incident happened and where I also keep
my boat, which is what stimulated my interest as I see so
many there.

A damning preliminary survey report by the German marine
surveyors Zucker & Partners is here (in German):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...survey-new.pdf
And a rebuttal by Bavaria Yachts (in English) is he
http://www.sailing.hu/files/pressrelease42m_4.pdf
And the response to that from the charter company
responsible for the regatta is here (in English):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/news.php?news=16

A further preliminary survey by a Croatian consultancy (in
English) with some very revealing photographs is he
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...cro-survey.pdf

BrianH.



"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,

But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security, quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue water
sailing.


"BrianH" wrote

http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.

GRP lifespan
 

"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

I agree, it was such a silly comment I thought it better not
to respond. "It happens every day on performance boats" !!!

One of the bizarre outcomes of this incident was the
response of Bavaria Yachts who tried to initially claim the
yacht had hit a rock - since disproved - a panic damage
limitation exercise. All over the world, this model is being
modified to strengthen the keel mountings. But the
disquieting thing is of a company that lets such apparent
design and quality assurance failures out of the factory
door and its implication on the quality of other models,
perhaps unfairly. I hope so, judging by the vast masses of
charter boats out there from this company. Especially in the
Adriatic where this incident happened and where I also keep
my boat, which is what stimulated my interest as I see so
many there.

A damning preliminary survey report by the German marine
surveyors Zucker & Partners is here (in German):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...survey-new.pdf
And a rebuttal by Bavaria Yachts (in English) is he
http://www.sailing.hu/files/pressrelease42m_4.pdf
And the response to that from the charter company
responsible for the regatta is here (in English):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/news.php?news=16

A further preliminary survey by a Croatian consultancy (in
English) with some very revealing photographs is he
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...cro-survey.pdf

BrianH.



"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,

But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security,
quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at
the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue water
sailing.


"BrianH" wrote

http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.





What I can't get over is how few bolts the Bavaria keels are held on by,
especially given the size of boat/keel.

My little Foxcub has _10_ keel bolts!!!

I'd trust my little boat (17'6") over a big Bavaria any day, thanks.

Christine

GRP lifespan
 

I think "peter" was referring to blisters. Always a hot topic.
MMC
"Adrian Smith" wrote in message
...
"peter" wrote in message
ups.com...
Graham Frankland wrote:

a good 10-20 year old Hallberg Rassey, Contest, Rival, Westerly, Moody
etc. may
have a few blisters but will still be stronger than many brand new
popular
EU production line boats are today.

Oh no, here we go again :-)
Nobody mention the 'B' word...


Are we saying that modern EU production line boats are not as strong as
the
ones made in 'the good old days' when things was done proper:-)

I'm new here, but if the 'B' word is Beneteau. How strong and what is the
durability of their hulls?

--
Adrian Smith

GRP lifespan
 

David Balfour wrote:

I was interested to see the wreck of a Joint Services Victoria 34 (Ensis) in
Cherbourg last year.

I spotted that too. Full of shingle. Any idea what happened??? Did you
spot the steel boats nearby? Suffered massive impact but still bent but
sailable.

GRP lifespan
 

I was interested to see the wreck of a Joint Services Victoria 34 (Ensis)
in
Cherbourg last year.

I spotted that too. Full of shingle. Any idea what happened??? Did you
spot the steel boats nearby? Suffered massive impact but still bent but
sailable.


Yes I did see her - a similar thing happened once to my dad with his steel
boat. Somebody hit her hard whilst she was unattended on a mooring. Made a
right mess but because she only bent she didn't sink. He's pretty sure any
wood/GRP boat would have been lost. Never found out who did it either.

A story goes that Ensis was trying to get into Cherbourg in poor visibility
and missed, hitting the rocks on the shore. They didn't know what they'd hit
and abandoned ship to the liferaft but pretty quickly realised they could
stand up. I imagine somebody got her out quite sharpish, but there were a
lot of bits missing when I saw her in June.

There was a sleeping bag right by the hole - the guy in that must have had
quite a fright!

GRP lifespan
 

"Christine Sheffield" wrote in message
...

"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

I agree, it was such a silly comment I thought it better not
to respond. "It happens every day on performance boats" !!!

One of the bizarre outcomes of this incident was the
response of Bavaria Yachts who tried to initially claim the
yacht had hit a rock - since disproved - a panic damage
limitation exercise. All over the world, this model is being
modified to strengthen the keel mountings. But the
disquieting thing is of a company that lets such apparent
design and quality assurance failures out of the factory
door and its implication on the quality of other models,
perhaps unfairly. I hope so, judging by the vast masses of
charter boats out there from this company. Especially in the
Adriatic where this incident happened and where I also keep
my boat, which is what stimulated my interest as I see so
many there.

A damning preliminary survey report by the German marine
surveyors Zucker & Partners is here (in German):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...survey-new.pdf
And a rebuttal by Bavaria Yachts (in English) is he
http://www.sailing.hu/files/pressrelease42m_4.pdf
And the response to that from the charter company
responsible for the regatta is here (in English):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/news.php?news=16

A further preliminary survey by a Croatian consultancy (in
English) with some very revealing photographs is he
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...cro-survey.pdf

BrianH.



"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,

But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security,
quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at
the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue
water
sailing.


"BrianH" wrote

http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.





What I can't get over is how few bolts the Bavaria keels are held on by,
especially given the size of boat/keel.

My little Foxcub has _10_ keel bolts!!!

I'd trust my little boat (17'6") over a big Bavaria any day, thanks.

Christine


The bolts in the Bavaria are probably a fair bit thicker than the ones in
your Foxcub.

The bolting and backing plates look OK to me. It seems the problem is that
the hull was simply not thick enough to withstand the stresses involved.
There is a nice square hole where one of the backing plates was located so
the bolts didn't let go of the hull. The hull let go of the boat.

GRP lifespan
 

GRP lifespan
 

Sorry, if it's was a bit over-populistic. What I had in mind was just that
25% of the boats in the Challenge, Volvo Ocean race and so on are facing
equipment problem. - and we don't judge these bad quality. Just "high tech".

No doubt that Bavaria 42 Match has a problem. - and thereby Bavaria as such

Sorry for the customers that spend money on these. I guess it will be hard
to get a good price on a used 42 Match without extensive, and expensive,
improvements to the hull.

I'm not especially fund of Bavaria. I just think I should counterbalance the
little group of sailors that seems to think that onle ineffective,
non-computerised oldfashioned work is "good quality".

Remember the definition of "good qulity": That is when you get exactly what
you expect. Good or bad.

Bjarke

"Christine Sheffield" wrote in message
...

"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

I agree, it was such a silly comment I thought it better not
to respond. "It happens every day on performance boats" !!!

snip

GRP lifespan
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I fly glassfibre aircraft, sailplanes actually - structure
lifespan is
a topic of interest when you are at 20 000' above ground level
flying
at 200 kph plus and the outside air temperature is below -15
degrees
Celcius.

Hmm. And some airliners fly at 500kts at 40 000' in -40C

the test is how well an airplane survives going through a Cumulo
Nimbus Cloud -

and development around sailplanes ( OSTIV ) recently published
a rather
reassuring article giving an estimated service lifespan of a
glassfibre
sailplane of around half a million flying hours. and that was
with a
safety factor of at least 1 order of magnitude.

the requirement for a civil aircraft is not to cause more than 1
death in every 1,000,000 flying hours. And, on average, that's
achieved.

Although yacht hulls are stressed by rigging and water loads I
suspect
that the stresses involved ( in a normal cruising boat ) are
somewhat
less than experienced by an aircraft structure.

I disagree. In fact I'd suggest that since yachts experience
structural failure more often, they are more highly loaded. Also
they experience greater load transients . (AFAIK... it may be
that aircraft experience more structural failures that I don't
hear about).

Think about how your airplane would react if you picked it up &
dropped it 10 or 20 feet (3 ~ 6 meters) three times a minute, at
varying angles, for several days.

Yup. Just like flying through a Cu Nim. Only for an hour or so
though. Hundreds of feet. On lots of flights in its lifetime.

..... The wings on my 25m
span Nimbus regularly deflect by a metre or so in normal
flight. Even
using the same figure of half a million hours one gets 47 odd
years of
'use', not just sitting in a berth.

Watch the wings of your 747 next time you lift off. They flex
through nearly 4 metres! More in sever turbulence.

I'd be willing to bet that this is well within the range of
unrelieved strain (ie does not accumulate fatigue) and the wing
is designed for this much deflection. Sailboats have to be a
good bit more rigid... I'm guessing that parts of the plane are
too, like for example how much does the fuselage flex & deflect
when you put on some rudder?

Exactly. Airplanes are designed to absorb energy by being
incredibly flexible. Yachts are designed rigid. Bad news for
yachts, so they have to be overdesigned in strength to reduce
failures. But yacht failure isn't so critical anyway; yacht
manufacturers get away with the occasional lost keel . . . only
affects a few people.

Of course if you insist on building a hull only millimetres
thick out
of Nomex, Kevlar, Carbon and other exotics, sail it in across
Biscay in
a gale with only one hull of three in the water and driving
through 5m
high swells then 'all bets are off' and you may well run into
mechanical limits of the structure.

Some production yachts have failed in lighter circumstances - ask
Bavaria about Croatia . . .

Could happen in planes too. And parachutes are cheaper than
ocean rescues ;)

Doubt it, there's a big industry looking after flight safety . . .

JimB