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Remember the definition of "good qulity": That is when you get exactly
what you expect. Good or bad. That's an unusual definition, are you saying that the quality of a product is defined by the expectations of the purchaser? Would that make a supermarket own brand cheap white loaf, quality bread ? Have you ever read "Zen and the art of motor cycle maintenance" ? |
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Thats the essense of quality according to the ISO9000 standard
(corresponding British Standards Institute BS 5750). If you promise the customer a piece of crap, fast and for low price, then it's bad quality to deliver late and for a higher price, even if the product in it self has better data. No, that I have not read the book about Zen. Is it relevant ? /Bjarke "Nigel" wrote in message ... Remember the definition of "good qulity": That is when you get exactly what you expect. Good or bad. That's an unusual definition, are you saying that the quality of a product is defined by the expectations of the purchaser? Would that make a supermarket own brand cheap white loaf, quality bread ? Have you ever read "Zen and the art of motor cycle maintenance" ? |
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Thats the essense of quality according to the ISO9000 standard
(corresponding British Standards Institute BS 5750). I beg to differ, the essence of quality through 9001:2000 is "Continual improvement", through setting objectives, improving your processes, and being driven by customer satisfaction and customer focus. |
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But it's the same thing.
Bavaria continue to improve (think of the early boats), their objective is to deliver "more boat for the money", they continue to improve the production process to make it cheaper, faster and more reliant. Customers are satisfied because they want space and can have a 42 footer for the cost of a 36 foot Rassy and they can have it equiped as they want. Fit's nicely into the ISO9000 definition of quality /Bjarke "MJ" wrote in message ... Thats the essense of quality according to the ISO9000 standard (corresponding British Standards Institute BS 5750). I beg to differ, the essence of quality through 9001:2000 is "Continual improvement", through setting objectives, improving your processes, and being driven by customer satisfaction and customer focus. |
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OK, so if Bavaria customers are satisfied why do they seem to have such a
poor reputation ?. "Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message . dk... But it's the same thing. Bavaria continue to improve (think of the early boats), their objective is to deliver "more boat for the money", they continue to improve the production process to make it cheaper, faster and more reliant. Customers are satisfied because they want space and can have a 42 footer for the cost of a 36 foot Rassy and they can have it equiped as they want. Fit's nicely into the ISO9000 definition of quality /Bjarke "MJ" wrote in message ... Thats the essense of quality according to the ISO9000 standard (corresponding British Standards Institute BS 5750). I beg to differ, the essence of quality through 9001:2000 is "Continual improvement", through setting objectives, improving your processes, and being driven by customer satisfaction and customer focus. |
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"MJ" wrote in message
... OK, so if Bavaria customers are satisfied why do they seem to have such a poor reputation ?. "Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message . dk... But it's the same thing. Bavaria continue to improve (think of the early boats), their objective is to deliver "more boat for the money", they continue to improve the production process to make it cheaper, faster and more reliant. Customers are satisfied because they want space and can have a 42 footer for the cost of a 36 foot Rassy and they can have it equiped as they want. Fit's nicely into the ISO9000 definition of quality /Bjarke "MJ" wrote in message ... Thats the essense of quality according to the ISO9000 standard (corresponding British Standards Institute BS 5750). I beg to differ, the essence of quality through 9001:2000 is "Continual improvement", through setting objectives, improving your processes, and being driven by customer satisfaction and customer focus. Actually, the ISO9000 standard is more about documenting what you do rather than the actual quality of the result. Here's a good, simple link... http://praxiom.com/iso-9001.htm -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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Actually, the ISO9000 standard is more about documenting what you do
rather than the actual quality of the result. Here's a good, simple link... http://praxiom.com/iso-9001 NO! ISO 9001:2000 is less documentation than previous standards eg. ISO9001:1994, BS5750. In fact you will often hear it quoted that 9001:2000 can be built around 6 procedures !.(If you read the standard you will only find it says "Shall have a documented procedure 6 times) in escence you have to define your processes(flow charts). With all the standards you will have to keep documented records (drawings, test results, training records..........) but even without the standards you would have these. 9001:2000 was designed to reduce the document burden on companies (although sometimes the auditors have the opposite effect, but this is not the fault of the standard) MJ |
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Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know
of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? (apart from 42 MATCH owners) /Bjarke non-Bavaria-sailor "MJ" wrote in message ... OK, so if Bavaria customers are satisfied why do they seem to have such a poor reputation ?. snip |
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Bjarke Christensen (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er
dansker) wrote: Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I don't know a Bavaria owner who dislikes the boat, in fact the owners all seem to love them. I _do_ know a Bavaria owner who is very unhappy with Opal, the UK importer. |
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"MJ" wrote in message
... Actually, the ISO9000 standard is more about documenting what you do rather than the actual quality of the result. Here's a good, simple link... http://praxiom.com/iso-9001 NO! ISO 9001:2000 is less documentation than previous standards eg. ISO9001:1994, BS5750. In fact you will often hear it quoted that 9001:2000 can be built around 6 procedures !.(If you read the standard you will only find it says "Shall have a documented procedure 6 times) in escence you have to define your processes(flow charts). With all the standards you will have to keep documented records (drawings, test results, training records..........) but even without the standards you would have these. 9001:2000 was designed to reduce the document burden on companies (although sometimes the auditors have the opposite effect, but this is not the fault of the standard) I'm willing to listen... please show me where there are defined standards for the actual quality of an item in 9000:2000. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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Exactly my point. They got what they want. A big cheap boat.
It seems like Opal is the company with bad quality. Probably they don't deliver according to the expectations. Bjarke wrote in message oups.com... Bjarke Christensen (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote: Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I don't know a Bavaria owner who dislikes the boat, in fact the owners all seem to love them. I _do_ know a Bavaria owner who is very unhappy with Opal, the UK importer. |
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But it's the whole idea. It is not defined. The idea is that companies
should decide for them self what to deliver to customers. Tell the customers and deliver as promissed. I don't know how to put it in correct english, but freely translated from my native language, ISO9K/quality is about "Say what you do and do what you say". Thats it. Bjarke "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "MJ" wrote in message snip I'm willing to listen... please show me where there are defined standards for the actual quality of an item in 9000:2000. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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Exactly. Quality is not defined by the standard. So, if they decide that
quality = 500 problems per 1000, that's ok as far as the ISO standard is concerned. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message . dk... But it's the whole idea. It is not defined. The idea is that companies should decide for them self what to deliver to customers. Tell the customers and deliver as promissed. I don't know how to put it in correct english, but freely translated from my native language, ISO9K/quality is about "Say what you do and do what you say". Thats it. Bjarke "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "MJ" wrote in message snip I'm willing to listen... please show me where there are defined standards for the actual quality of an item in 9000:2000. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message . dk... But it's the whole idea. It is not defined. The idea is that companies should decide for them self what to deliver to customers. Tell the customers and deliver as promissed. I don't know how to put it in correct english, but freely translated from my native language, ISO9K/quality is about "Say what you do and do what you say". Thats it. Bjarke "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "MJ" wrote in message snip I'm willing to listen... please show me where there are defined standards for the actual quality of an item in 9000:2000. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com All the ISO9xxx are aimed at running a better business. If your business is to sell cheap yachts that fall apart at sea you can still get ISO 9xxx certification. -- Adrian Smith www.YourStadium.com Superb aerial pictures of UK football stadiums. |
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"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message . dk... Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating in only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they slam a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality and fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned. Graham. |
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Graham Frankland wrote:
"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message . dk... Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes it and is seriously considering selling. What does he wish he'd bought instead? |
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Graham Frankland wrote: "Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message .dk... Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating in only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they slam a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality and fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned. Graham. I've got a B32 (10.3mtres loa), bought new 4 years ago for under 50K (sail away price with a few extras), and still worth roughly the same. I like it, but with reservations. Anyhow, the boat show was an oportunity to look at boats that one might prefer to own, so I climbed aboard a Maxi 1050 which I've always fancied. Nice enough boat, but £140K!!!! FFS, its hardly surprising that a Bavaria isn't quite up to the same standard as a similar sized boat costing well over twice as much. Looked at another way, can you really justify a price factor well in excess of x2 for a boat which is perhaps a bit better built, but which will probably never go further than the north Brittany coast, and then only in the summer with a forecast of f6 or less! |
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wrote in message
ups.com... Graham Frankland wrote: "Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message . dk... Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes it and is seriously considering selling. What does he wish he'd bought instead? He wanted a second hand Moody 31 but his wife insisted on a new boat because "all second hand boats smell" and the Bavaria was all he could afford at the time. We first met them in La Rochelle a couple of years ago and virtually the first thing he said was along the lines of - OK, it's a Bavaria so take the ****, everyone else does! Graham. |
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"Pete Styles" wrote in message
... Graham Frankland wrote: "Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message y.dk... Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating in only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they slam a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality and fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned. Graham. I've got a B32 (10.3mtres loa), bought new 4 years ago for under 50K (sail away price with a few extras), and still worth roughly the same. I like it, but with reservations. Anyhow, the boat show was an oportunity to look at boats that one might prefer to own, so I climbed aboard a Maxi 1050 which I've always fancied. Nice enough boat, but £140K!!!! FFS, its hardly surprising that a Bavaria isn't quite up to the same standard as a similar sized boat costing well over twice as much. Looked at another way, can you really justify a price factor well in excess of x2 for a boat which is perhaps a bit better built, but which will probably never go further than the north Brittany coast, and then only in the summer with a forecast of f6 or less! You make a good point and that's why they sell well, along with other French boats, particularly to those who don't want the hassle of working rather than sailing. Our 1988 well used Moody was actually more expensive than your brand new boat PLUS I spent around £10k on refit. Fortunately, I'm able to do 99% of the work myself and prefer the heavier build and sea keeping qualities as we cover quite a few miles each year around the Irish Sea and Biscay. Graham. |
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Graham Frankland wrote: "Pete Styles" wrote in message ... Graham Frankland wrote: "Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message ty.dk... Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating in only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they slam a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality and fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned. Graham. I've got a B32 (10.3mtres loa), bought new 4 years ago for under 50K (sail away price with a few extras), and still worth roughly the same. I like it, but with reservations. Anyhow, the boat show was an oportunity to look at boats that one might prefer to own, so I climbed aboard a Maxi 1050 which I've always fancied. Nice enough boat, but £140K!!!! FFS, its hardly surprising that a Bavaria isn't quite up to the same standard as a similar sized boat costing well over twice as much. Looked at another way, can you really justify a price factor well in excess of x2 for a boat which is perhaps a bit better built, but which will probably never go further than the north Brittany coast, and then only in the summer with a forecast of f6 or less! You make a good point and that's why they sell well, along with other French boats, particularly to those who don't want the hassle of working rather than sailing. Our 1988 well used Moody was actually more expensive than your brand new boat PLUS I spent around £10k on refit. Fortunately, I'm able to do 99% of the work myself and prefer the heavier build and sea keeping qualities as we cover quite a few miles each year around the Irish Sea and Biscay. Graham. For your sort of sailing, I suspect that I'd have spent my money the same way as you did. As ever, horses for courses. P. |
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Ohh I like Petes and Grahams posts.
They show exactly what I mean. People want different products. As as long as companies are producing these boats (heavt or light, cheap og expensive, blue or white), people know what they are bying and are satisfied with what they got I see no problem. I happens to be a Maxi freak (That is .... "Maxi Yacht freak" not Maxi ... well ... ) with 2 Maxi's so far looking for no 3. So I like Petes example. And I realise that I could get more boat for the money if a bought a Bavaria; but I choose not to because I like Maxi and all my Maxi friends What ****'es me off are sailors that are trying to make owners of certain makes low-life creatures because they bought a boat with characteristics they don't like for them self. These years it's Bavaria, ealier it was Oceanis Clipper and for motor-sailors it's Bayliner. We live in free countries (most os us) and we should accept peoples choices. Especially when they know what they are doing. Even when it comes to our lovely boats. Exchanging information about the boats and expeciences is quite different. That I like to share. Bjarke "Pete Styles" wrote in message ... Graham Frankland wrote: "Pete Styles" wrote in message ... Graham Frankland wrote: "Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message ity.dk... Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ? I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating in only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they slam a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality and fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned. Graham. I've got a B32 (10.3mtres loa), bought new 4 years ago for under 50K (sail away price with a few extras), and still worth roughly the same. I like it, but with reservations. Anyhow, the boat show was an oportunity to look at boats that one might prefer to own, so I climbed aboard a Maxi 1050 which I've always fancied. Nice enough boat, but £140K!!!! FFS, its hardly surprising that a Bavaria isn't quite up to the same standard as a similar sized boat costing well over twice as much. Looked at another way, can you really justify a price factor well in excess of x2 for a boat which is perhaps a bit better built, but which will probably never go further than the north Brittany coast, and then only in the summer with a forecast of f6 or less! You make a good point and that's why they sell well, along with other French boats, particularly to those who don't want the hassle of working rather than sailing. Our 1988 well used Moody was actually more expensive than your brand new boat PLUS I spent around £10k on refit. Fortunately, I'm able to do 99% of the work myself and prefer the heavier build and sea keeping qualities as we cover quite a few miles each year around the Irish Sea and Biscay. Graham. For your sort of sailing, I suspect that I'd have spent my money the same way as you did. As ever, horses for courses. P. |
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Bjarke Christensen wrote: Ohh I like Petes and Grahams posts. They show exactly what I mean. People want different products. As as long as companies are producing these boats (heavt or light, cheap og expensive, blue or white), people know what they are bying and are satisfied with what they got I see no problem. I happens to be a Maxi freak (That is .... "Maxi Yacht freak" not Maxi ... well ... ) with 2 Maxi's so far looking for no 3. So I like Petes example. And I realise that I could get more boat for the money if a bought a Bavaria; but I choose not to because I like Maxi and all my Maxi friends Oh dear, you're making me want one even more :-( |
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smile
"Pete Styles" wrote in message ... snip Oh dear, you're making me want one even more :-( |
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:11:29 UTC, "MJ" wrote:
: 9001:2000 was designed to reduce the document burden on companies (although : sometimes the auditors have the opposite effect, but this is not the fault : of the standard) A useful rule of thumb is never, ever to do serious business with any company which has wasted time on these useless standards which they could have used on making better stuff cheaper. Like fishtanks in reception, BS5750 and all its demon spawn are symptoms of a company in terminal decline. Don't trade with them, Sell their shares. Ian -- |
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"Pete Styles" wrote in message
... Bjarke Christensen wrote: Ohh I like Petes and Grahams posts. They show exactly what I mean. People want different products. As as long as companies are producing these boats (heavt or light, cheap og expensive, blue or white), people know what they are bying and are satisfied with what they got I see no problem. I happens to be a Maxi freak (That is .... "Maxi Yacht freak" not Maxi ... well ... ) with 2 Maxi's so far looking for no 3. So I like Petes example. And I realise that I could get more boat for the money if a bought a Bavaria; but I choose not to because I like Maxi and all my Maxi friends Oh dear, you're making me want one even more :-( Isn't the EU lottery up to 100 million or some such crazy figure at the moment? Win that and you can buy a fleet of Maxis - and a Crealock for me please. Graham. |
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"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) skrev i en meddelelse . dk... Sorry, if it's was a bit over-populistic. What I had in mind was just that 25% of the boats in the Challenge, Volvo Ocean race and so on are facing equipment problem. - and we don't judge these bad quality. Just "high tech". No doubt that Bavaria 42 Match has a problem. - and thereby Bavaria as such Sorry for the customers that spend money on these. I guess it will be hard to get a good price on a used 42 Match without extensive, and expensive, improvements to the hull. I'm not especially fund of Bavaria. I just think I should counterbalance the little group of sailors that seems to think that onle ineffective, non-computerised oldfashioned work is "good quality". Remember the definition of "good qulity": That is when you get exactly what you expect. Good or bad. Bjarke Hi Bjarke, In the late summer of 2003 we were looking at a larger - "new/second hand" - sailboat. We were talking to several different brokers and visiting many marinas, and what really surprised me was, that in three cases we saw different models of pretty new Bavarias on land with a big (big!) whole in the hull where the aftermost part of the keel is mounted to the hull ... Whether it has something to do with the people sailing the Bavarias or it has something to do with the construction of the same boats ... I don't know ... Anyway, we decided for another boat make, and that was fortunate enough, as we in 2005 did hit something very hard while sailing above 8 knots in fresh wind ..., but because of the construction of the hull and keel with a very strong frame inside the hull on which the keel is bolted with many bolts, the damage was not that bad (but bad enough ...), at least, we did not miss the keel, and the boat did not leak .... so we could continue the sailing ... but the floor in the cabin and the keel was in pretty bad shape - and we were shocked ... -- Flemming Torp 'kun en tåbe frygter ikke haven' |
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