well, as i said, it could happen. and as a physician, i have seen cases
of aspiration pneumonia where people die pretty quickly. however, as a
paddler, i have had water up my nose constantly, and i have never even
come close to this. I suspect in order for this to be a reality, it
would be necessary for water to go much further than your nose. the
original claim that water up the nose can be fatal, IMHO, is wrong.

You're the physician - see mine earlier - what IS the "vagus" nerve? And
does the source Huthison cites have any credibility? (Keatinge, W.R -
Survival in cold water - Blackwell Scientific Publishers (1969)


"Steven" wrote in message
ups.com...
well, as i said, it could happen. and as a physician, i have seen cases
of aspiration pneumonia where people die pretty quickly. however, as a
paddler, i have had water up my nose constantly, and i have never even
come close to this. I suspect in order for this to be a reality, it
would be necessary for water to go much further than your nose. the
original claim that water up the nose can be fatal, IMHO, is wrong.

i think he may be referring to the mammalian diving reflex, which is a
significant reduction of pulse and breathing rate when a person gets
immersed suddenly in cold water. you can try this yourself by filling
the sink with icewater, monitoring your pulse, then putting your face
in the water for 10 seconds or so. not sure i've heard of death
resulting from this, tho it could happen i suppose. more commonly,
this reflex can keep people alive for upwards of an hour underwater.
there have been cases of people recovered from icy ponds , who were
under water for extended periods of time, but had no residual bran
damage from it.

the vagus nerve is the 9th cranial nerve, that leaves the brain and
controls a whole range of activities. i'm not sure how getting water up
the nose per se would have much of an effect, but it is hard to imagine
getting water up the nose w/o getting one's face wet as well.

Rob wrote:
You're the physician - see mine earlier - what IS the "vagus" nerve? And
does the source Huthison cites have any credibility? (Keatinge, W.R -
Survival in cold water - Blackwell Scientific Publishers (1969)


"Steven" wrote in message
ups.com...
well, as i said, it could happen. and as a physician, i have seen cases
of aspiration pneumonia where people die pretty quickly. however, as a
paddler, i have had water up my nose constantly, and i have never even
come close to this. I suspect in order for this to be a reality, it
would be necessary for water to go much further than your nose. the
original claim that water up the nose can be fatal, IMHO, is wrong.

Go kayak surfing and by his theory of water up your nose you should
drown!

In message . com,
Steven writes
well, as i said, it could happen. and as a physician, i have seen cases
of aspiration pneumonia where people die pretty quickly. however, as a
paddler, i have had water up my nose constantly, and i have never even
come close to this. I suspect in order for this to be a reality, it
would be necessary for water to go much further than your nose. the
original claim that water up the nose can be fatal, IMHO, is wrong.


--
Dave Manby

Well, you omitted the rest of the reference: " - - bear in mind that - -
in some cases sudden death has been caused by water being driven up the
nose. This has either slowed or arrested the heart through a reflex action
involving the vagus nerve". (I guess I could Google that if I wanted to.)

And he then cites the relevant source.

So it makes much more sense I guess to read it in it's entirety. Never heard
of it myself, but clearly there is a precedent.

As to his style, bear in mind that book was first published in 1976 (mine is
1997 - the ref is on p.36) and writign styles and attitudes have moved a bit
since the days of the "expert" who knows it all and to whom we ahve to
defer. Today, would it would be written in a more holistic and
self-exploratoty way, to encourage personal discovery?

Anyway, the man is something of a guru in his own way!




"Andy Baxter" wrote in message
...


In Derek Hutchinson’s book, “The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking”, on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states “…in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose”. Really? It makes it
sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

IMO the book is less than impressive, some interesting material, but a lot
of “look at me” stuff like he wants to score points to nail some kayaking
chicks.

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?

Rob wrote:

Well, you omitted the rest of the reference: " - - bear in mind that - -
in some cases sudden death has been caused by water being driven up the
nose. This has either slowed or arrested the heart through a reflex action
involving the vagus nerve". (I guess I could Google that if I wanted to.)
And he then cites the relevant source.

If you do Google Keatinge, the guy he references, you find that he has
been extensively used as a reference in a lot of articles on hypothermia

So it makes much more sense I guess to read it in it's entirety. Never heard
of it myself, but clearly there is a precedent.

At least once, I guess.

As to his style, bear in mind that book was first published in 1976 (mine is
1997 - the ref is on p.36) and writign styles and attitudes have moved a bit
since the days of the "expert" who knows it all and to whom we ahve to
defer. Today, would it would be written in a more holistic and
self-exploratoty way, to encourage personal discovery?

Not by Derek, it wouldn't. Although since his quad bypass and the death
of his wife, he does seem a bit subdued compared to 5-10 years ago.

Anyway, the man is something of a guru in his own way!

And if you have any doubt of that, you have only to ask him.

Steve




"Andy Baxter" wrote in message
...


In Derek Hutchinson’s book, “The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking”, on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states “…in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose”. Really? It makes it
sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

IMO the book is less than impressive, some interesting material, but a lot
of “look at me” stuff like he wants to score points to nail some kayaking
chicks.

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?





--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Hmmmm. The Vagus nerve connection is INTERESTING. I do know that
there are implantable Vagus Nerve stimulators which are used for some
neurologic conditions. The company that makes the implantable
stimulator was getting ready to apply to the FDA for medical device
usage for depression since it has a nice side effect as per mood.
However, during that time a guy in Frederick County, Maryland (where I
used to live) was stimulating his Vagus while driving and caused a
major car accident killing 5, and that skuttled all plans for the
depression indication with the FDA.

I have met one paddler who drowned, and was successfully recussitated
after 8 minutes. He described drowning as "euphoric" and said he
"would do it everyday" except the recovery in the hospital was painful
and quite unpleasant. Wonder if that could be the Vagus Nerve effect?

Hey, this thead is fun. Just like the rbp heyday!

Mothra

in article , Mothra at
wrote on 1/17/06 7:45 PM:

Hmmmm. The Vagus nerve connection is INTERESTING. I do know that
there are implantable Vagus Nerve stimulators which are used for some
neurologic conditions. The company that makes the implantable
stimulator was getting ready to apply to the FDA for medical device
usage for depression since it has a nice side effect as per mood.
However, during that time a guy in Frederick County, Maryland (where I
used to live) was stimulating his Vagus while driving and caused a
major car accident killing 5, and that skuttled all plans for the
depression indication with the FDA.

I have met one paddler who drowned, and was successfully recussitated
after 8 minutes. He described drowning as "euphoric" and said he
"would do it everyday" except the recovery in the hospital was painful
and quite unpleasant. Wonder if that could be the Vagus Nerve effect?

Hey, this thead is fun. Just like the rbp heyday!

Mothra

See, with just a little of my help, things got rolling!

Mothra wrote:
Hmmmm. The Vagus nerve connection is INTERESTING. I do know that
there are implantable Vagus Nerve stimulators which are used for some
neurologic conditions. The company that makes the implantable
stimulator was getting ready to apply to the FDA for medical device
usage for depression since it has a nice side effect as per mood.
However, during that time a guy in Frederick County, Maryland (where I
used to live) was stimulating his Vagus while driving and caused a
major car accident killing 5, and that skuttled all plans for the
depression indication with the FDA.

I have met one paddler who drowned, and was successfully recussitated
after 8 minutes. He described drowning as "euphoric" and said he
"would do it everyday" except the recovery in the hospital was painful
and quite unpleasant. Wonder if that could be the Vagus Nerve effect?

Hey, this thead is fun. Just like the rbp heyday!

Mothra

Hey Mothra!

Nice to see a familiar name show up. RBP was hot for a while, quite
frequently earning a column in some of the paddling rags And every
once in a while, some direct quotes from this group would show up in a
book.

And even though that was a long time ago, I gotta tell you, there are
many names counted on the list of friends met here that I would love to
connect with in real life.

Regards,

Blakley
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
r.b.p. clique member #86

"The best adventure is yet to come"

"Railtramp" wrote in message
ups.com...
Mothra wrote:
Hmmmm. The Vagus nerve connection is INTERESTING. I do know that
there are implantable Vagus Nerve stimulators which are used for some
neurologic conditions. The company that makes the implantable
stimulator was getting ready to apply to the FDA for medical device
usage for depression since it has a nice side effect as per mood.
However, during that time a guy in Frederick County, Maryland (where I
used to live) was stimulating his Vagus while driving and caused a
major car accident killing 5, and that skuttled all plans for the
depression indication with the FDA.

I have met one paddler who drowned, and was successfully recussitated
after 8 minutes. He described drowning as "euphoric" and said he
"would do it everyday" except the recovery in the hospital was painful
and quite unpleasant. Wonder if that could be the Vagus Nerve effect?

Hey, this thead is fun. Just like the rbp heyday!

Mothra

Hey Mothra!

Nice to see a familiar name show up. RBP was hot for a while, quite
frequently earning a column in some of the paddling rags And every
once in a while, some direct quotes from this group would show up in a
book.

And even though that was a long time ago, I gotta tell you, there are
many names counted on the list of friends met here that I would love to
connect with in real life.

Regards,

Blakley
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
r.b.p. clique member #86

"The best adventure is yet to come"