Duncan Heenan wrote:

If he dies at sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85
what else has he to look forward to/

That's precisely what I thought for the first three paragraphs of
Faith's post. To be honest, it's something I've even thought of for
myself at that kind of age - somewhat morbid for a 24 year old!

That changed as soon as I read the next line. He's not just risking
himself, he's risking someone else. That's OK, just, if the someone else
knows exactly what they're letting themselves in for, but it sounds like
this lady does not. She has never sailed before, let alone undertaken
the kind of trip he's planning. She presumably loves and trusts him, and
believes him when he says he can sail her around the world. She may know
that what she's doing is dangerous; I very much doubt she knows *how*
dangerous.

I think any attempt to solve this problem has to revolve around her,
giving her a better understanding of what she's getting into. Sailing
lessons, as JG suggested, seem like a good idea, but for her, not him.
He'd almost certainly be insulted, and might well refuse to take part;
arranging for her to have a little experience before going just seems
like common sense to everybody involved - if Faith's paying, it seems
like a nice farewell present.

Work-up or shakedown trips before the final departure are another
sensible precaution, and another opportunity for the lady - and maybe
the father - to realise what's involved, and her for to either dissuade
him or change her mind about going.

At the end of the day, though, this kind of thing is all you can do. You
do not have the moral right to prevent either of them doing what they
want with their lives. The lady's lack of understanding is the only
problem here - if you fix that and she still wants to go, tough. Wish
them luck.

Pete

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about
25% of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe
is typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a
natural concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four
85 year olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease
too late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad
decision making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up. Is it the father's happiness the
daughter's worried about, or her inheritance going on a boat and a
girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

I guess Duncan hasn't had to care for someone with Alzheimers or senile
dimentia and of course we don't know if this guy does have it.

I used to have a registered care home and had to deal with it on
a daily basis and I am now having to watch my brother deteriorate with it.
Cases obviously vary somewhat and so does the speed of deterioration but
there are some common factors. In earlier stages there are bouts of
fear and panic, particularly when going somewhere and then realising they
don't know where they are, where they were going or, how to get home again.
Increasingly irrational behaviour, mood swings and some become very
aggressive. Not too far down the line, inability to find the
toilet/bedroom/kitchen etc in their own house, (this confusion dramatically
increases in unfamiliar surroundings) Need assistance with dressing, toilet
etc. Short term memory is the first to deteriorate and before long they
don't know when they've eaten maybe only 5 minutes afterwards. They forget
who close relatives and friends are and rational converation becomes
impossible. Further down the slippery slope may come the inability to even
sit down without assistance, incontinence, etc.

Personally, I would rather sail with a drunk - at least they're sober some
of the time!

Graham.

"Graham Frankland" gfranklandattiscalidotcodotuk wrote in message
...
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about
25% of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you
describe
is typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a
natural concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four
85 year olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to
make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then
take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I
think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease
too late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad
decision making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the
spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up. Is it the father's happiness the
daughter's worried about, or her inheritance going on a boat and a
girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

I guess Duncan hasn't had to care for someone with Alzheimers or senile
dimentia and of course we don't know if this guy does have it.

I used to have a registered care home and had to deal with it on
a daily basis and I am now having to watch my brother deteriorate with it.
Cases obviously vary somewhat and so does the speed of deterioration but
there are some common factors. In earlier stages there are bouts of
fear and panic, particularly when going somewhere and then realising they
don't know where they are, where they were going or, how to get home
again.
Increasingly irrational behaviour, mood swings and some become very
aggressive. Not too far down the line, inability to find the
toilet/bedroom/kitchen etc in their own house, (this confusion
dramatically increases in unfamiliar surroundings) Need assistance with
dressing, toilet etc. Short term memory is the first to deteriorate and
before long they don't know when they've eaten maybe only 5 minutes
afterwards. They forget who close relatives and friends are and rational
converation becomes impossible. Further down the slippery slope may come
the inability to even sit down without assistance, incontinence, etc.

Personally, I would rather sail with a drunk - at least they're sober some
of the time!

Graham.

As it happens I do have experience of watching and caring for someone slide
down the slope of dementia. My conclusion is that if it starts to happen to
me I'd rather drown happy before I get too far down that slope. I wouldn't
want to sail with someone in that condition, but I also wouldn't want
someone to make that decision for me.

In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about 25%
of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe is
typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a natural
concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four 85 year
olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease too
late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad decision
making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse?

It's certainly likely to shorten it and make its end rather more
stressful and/or uncomfortable.

--
Marshall Rice

(Put the bin out to email me)

"Marshall Rice" wrote in message
...
In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about
25%
of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe is
typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a natural
concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four 85 year
olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to
make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then
take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I
think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease
too
late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad
decision
making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse?

It's certainly likely to shorten it and make its end rather more stressful
and/or uncomfortable.

Less stressful?? Have you seen someone developing Alzheimer's?
There is more to life than comfort - ask any sailor!