We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

"-rick-" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
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The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

For precisely that reason my fundamentalist preacher brother-in-law has
always refused to allow a Christmas tree in his house.

-rick-



But if they called it a *Holiday* tree I guess that would be OK. Eh?

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:35:31 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:22:37 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas tree.



Ours will be decorated upon my wife's return from her out-a-towner. We
have a nice artificial tree, because our cats are just too fond of the
real deal. One of them, especially, likes to climb to the top of a real
tree and then sway back and forth until he knocks it over. But he and
the others have no interest in the artificial tree, other than stealing
the tinsel and stashing it away.

Harry, when are the liberals going to start waging their campaign to
remove the crosses and the stars of David from Arlington Memorial
Cemetery?

Surely, being a union guy and all, you've got the inside track with
what the ACLUnion is doing these days.
--
John H

"It's not a *baby* kicking, beautiful bride, it's just a fetus!"
[A Self-obsessed Hypocrite]

Why don't you turn off the radio and think for yourself?

The crosses, stars of David, and even the Moslem crescents in Arlington
National cemetary belong on the tombs. They are there to help identify
and commemorate the people who are buried there. Just like the name on
the tombstone, the religious symbols
(or lack of same), make a statement about the deceased.

Now, when you want to put a Christian Cross over the entrance and
require everybody to say Hail Mary or The Lord's Prayer when entering,
(or install the trappings of any other religion as an overall theme for
Arlington), you will indeed hear from liberals- as well as moderates,
conservatives, and lovers of the First Amendment from any political
camp.

Rationales don't cut it, Chuck. A religious symbol is on federal
property. Amen.
--
John H


No, a variety of religious symbols, all personally relevant to the
deceased persons, are on federal property. That's different than making
the entire cemetary a Christian shrine. And that was my point. No
liberals (that I know, and I know a lot) have any interest in
restricting the practice of individual religion. Most simply want it to
be a matter of individual choice, rather than a government edict. I
believe that all but the most hopelessly deluded righties probably, in
principle, agree.

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree, the tree blesses the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.

You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning. You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.





The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special top
ornament)?



As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact, two of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity, and you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God, doesn't
it?

The Virgin Birth story was added about 150-200 AD. Specifically to
allow Christianity to compete with the worship of Mithras. Funny thing,
at least to me, is that the most important story in the New Testament
has to be the Resurrection. (All four gospels mention that, right?). I
would think that the Easter story is diminished in importance if Jesus
were a supernatural being. IOW, "A supernatural being has the power to
rise from the dead." Now, put forth the theory that a loving divinity
makes it possible for common, garden-variety mortals to be saved,
through faith, from death and achieve some sort of "eternal life" and
you've actually got a bigger miracle to celebrate. Again, that's just
my opinion.


Is there a religious passage somewhere that says, "Go thou, chop down
a tree, bring it into your home, and make offereings unto it?" Nah,
probably not. In fact, I sort of recall that Jehovah was might upset
when some of his followers were venerating a golden calf.
It ain't that far from a calf to a tree.

Probably no passage saying same.

So what? There is no passage saying, "Buy thyself a boat and cruise
Puget Sound," You do it because you enjoy it. People put Christmas
trees in their homes because they enjoy them. For many, decorating the
tree is a family get-together time that is most enjoyable.


And I have no problem with people putting up a tree. When I go boating,
I don't pretend it's a religious observance. Neither should people
putting up a tree, unless they practice a religion that venerates
trees.





And, the tree provides a centerpiece for the electric train going
round and round its base.


Oh, and take a good close look at that holly and mistletoe while you're
at it. :-)

Holly provides a decorative touch on the fireplace mantel. Intermixed
with candles, lights, and other decorations it adds to the Christmas
cheer.

Can anybody who considers Christmas a Christian and religious holiday
offer a good explanation for the inculsion of a venerated tree? I'd be
fascinated to see it attempted.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

...and because we like them. They provide a nice gathering spot for
family and friends and for the opening of gifts on Christmas morning.

It's a shame you miss out on one of the great pleasures of life -
watching the grandchildren opening their presents by the Christmas
tree.
--
John H

"It's not a *baby* kicking, beautiful bride, it's just a fetus!"
[A Self-obsessed Hypocrite]

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

John H. wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 16:59:05 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:



Harry, celebrating the birth of these Jews should be done on the day
of their births. I have no problem with that.

Christmas celebrates the day of one particular Jew's birth, Jesus. You
may find that galling, but it's a fact.

--
John

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Nonsense. As far as I know, there isn't a single biblical scholar
willing to state any specific
day of the year as the birthday of Jesus. December 25 was chosen to
allow the Christ-mass to supplant Germanic solstice festivals. And
*that's* a fact.

Christmas was rarely celebrated as anything more than just another
minor feast day on the annual religious calendar until some time in the
early 19th century. When you read Acts, do you see examples of early
Christians celebrating Christmas and Easter? How about Paul's letters
to all the early churches, do you read any exhortations to be sure to
remember to celebrate Christmas on December 25, or Easter on the first
Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox? Funny
how so many people *insist* that Jesus was born on December 25,
exactly, but don't have a problem with Easter wandering all around the
calendar from year to year.

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

wrote in message
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John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas
tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree,

Do you? Not me?

...........the tree blesses the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.

I have never asked my Christmas tree to blee the gifts I offer to others.
My gifts are offered in appreciation of my family and friends.



You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning. You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.


Our offerings are for the needy, regardless of where they may live.


I will not make fun of your offerings Chuck as I know they are well
intentioned.






The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special top
ornament)?

We celebrate the day we put our Christmas tree up and decorate it. It has
been a family tradition since our children were born.

What is your problem with that?





As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact, two of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity, and you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God, doesn't
it?


Only in your world.



And I have no problem with people putting up a tree.


Sure you do Chuck. Your posts prove it.

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

John H. wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 17:58:26 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H. wrote:
How many of the 45 million
babies killed would have lived if they'd simply been born at the time
they were killed? More than a thousand? Ten percent? One percent?

--
John

And think of the poor sperm that oozes out...and the eggs wasted each month.

Hard question, huh? "It's just a fetus kicking, honey." Ring any
bells?

Here, I'll repeat one you seem to have missed.

Harry, all nations have their Holy Days. Our nation does too. If you
don't want to join in the celebration of Christ's birth, don't do it.


Our nation does not. "Congress shall make no law......" go back and
read the first amendment.

Are Jews un-American?
How about atheists and agnostics? Are they less American because they
don't pray to Jesus, or don't pray at all? They're a heck of a lot less
Christian, for sure. But most of the Christians in the world aren't
Americans. Christmas is not a "national holy day" . My ancestors began
arriving here in the early 1600's specifically to get away from
"official state holy days." Our founders set up a system where you are
free to practice your religion as you see fit, but it will never be the
"national" religion. Sorry.

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

" *JimH*" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...

John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas
tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree,

Do you? Not me?

...........the tree blesses the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.

I have never asked my Christmas tree to bless the gifts I offer to others.
My gifts are offered in appreciation of my family and friends.



You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning. You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.


Our offerings are for the needy, regardless of where they may live.


I will not make fun of your offerings Chuck as I know they are well
intentioned.






The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special top
ornament)?

We celebrate the day we put our Christmas tree up and decorate it. It has
been a family tradition since our children were born.

What is your problem with that?





As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact, two of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity, and you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God, doesn't
it?


Only in your world.



And I have no problem with people putting up a tree.


Sure you do Chuck. Your posts prove it.

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

On 3 Dec 2005 18:42:06 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree, the tree blesses the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.


No offerings are made to a tree. That was an assinine comment, one
that I wouldn't have expected from you.

You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning. You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.

And providing food and lodging for the poor, along with other works.


The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special top
ornament)?

I am very comfortable with putting a decoration on the top of the
tree. You may call it 'crowning', but it's not a term I've ever heard.

As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact, two of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity, and you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God, doesn't
it?

Do they disagree about the birth of Christ? I thought you said that
the Nativity wasn't mentioned. None of the good news in Iraq is
mentioned in the major media, but that doesn't mean it's not
happening.


The Virgin Birth story was added about 150-200 AD. Specifically to
allow Christianity to compete with the worship of Mithras. Funny thing,
at least to me, is that the most important story in the New Testament
has to be the Resurrection. (All four gospels mention that, right?). I
would think that the Easter story is diminished in importance if Jesus
were a supernatural being. IOW, "A supernatural being has the power to
rise from the dead." Now, put forth the theory that a loving divinity
makes it possible for common, garden-variety mortals to be saved,
through faith, from death and achieve some sort of "eternal life" and
you've actually got a bigger miracle to celebrate. Again, that's just
my opinion.


You're entitled to your opinion, and, as you say, that's just your
opinion.

Is there a religious passage somewhere that says, "Go thou, chop down
a tree, bring it into your home, and make offereings unto it?" Nah,
probably not. In fact, I sort of recall that Jehovah was might upset
when some of his followers were venerating a golden calf.
It ain't that far from a calf to a tree.

Probably no passage saying same.

So what? There is no passage saying, "Buy thyself a boat and cruise
Puget Sound," You do it because you enjoy it. People put Christmas
trees in their homes because they enjoy them. For many, decorating the
tree is a family get-together time that is most enjoyable.


And I have no problem with people putting up a tree. When I go boating,
I don't pretend it's a religious observance. Neither should people
putting up a tree, unless they practice a religion that venerates
trees.

Well gee! Thanks for not having a problem with my Christmas tree. The
putting up of the tree is *part* of our observance of Christmas. I'm
pretending nothing.

And, the tree provides a centerpiece for the electric train going
round and round its base.


I guess the above met with your approval? No derogatory comments?

Oh, and take a good close look at that holly and mistletoe while you're
at it. :-)

Holly provides a decorative touch on the fireplace mantel. Intermixed
with candles, lights, and other decorations it adds to the Christmas
cheer.

This was OK also?


Can anybody who considers Christmas a Christian and religious holiday
offer a good explanation for the inculsion of a venerated tree? I'd be
fascinated to see it attempted.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

...and because we like them. They provide a nice gathering spot for
family and friends and for the opening of gifts on Christmas morning.

Nothing wrong here either?


It's a shame you miss out on one of the great pleasures of life -
watching the grandchildren opening their presents by the Christmas
tree.

Have you ever watched your grandkids opening presents by the Christmas
tree, Chuck?

If not, you've missed out on a lot of joy.



--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

We purchased a Holdiay tree today......................
 

On 3 Dec 2005 18:16:40 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:35:31 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:22:37 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas tree.



Ours will be decorated upon my wife's return from her out-a-towner. We
have a nice artificial tree, because our cats are just too fond of the
real deal. One of them, especially, likes to climb to the top of a real
tree and then sway back and forth until he knocks it over. But he and
the others have no interest in the artificial tree, other than stealing
the tinsel and stashing it away.

Harry, when are the liberals going to start waging their campaign to
remove the crosses and the stars of David from Arlington Memorial
Cemetery?

Surely, being a union guy and all, you've got the inside track with
what the ACLUnion is doing these days.
--
John H

"It's not a *baby* kicking, beautiful bride, it's just a fetus!"
[A Self-obsessed Hypocrite]

Why don't you turn off the radio and think for yourself?

The crosses, stars of David, and even the Moslem crescents in Arlington
National cemetary belong on the tombs. They are there to help identify
and commemorate the people who are buried there. Just like the name on
the tombstone, the religious symbols
(or lack of same), make a statement about the deceased.

Now, when you want to put a Christian Cross over the entrance and
require everybody to say Hail Mary or The Lord's Prayer when entering,
(or install the trappings of any other religion as an overall theme for
Arlington), you will indeed hear from liberals- as well as moderates,
conservatives, and lovers of the First Amendment from any political
camp.

Rationales don't cut it, Chuck. A religious symbol is on federal
property. Amen.
--
John H


No, a variety of religious symbols, all personally relevant to the
deceased persons, are on federal property. That's different than making
the entire cemetary a Christian shrine. And that was my point. No
liberals (that I know, and I know a lot) have any interest in
restricting the practice of individual religion. Most simply want it to
be a matter of individual choice, rather than a government edict. I
believe that all but the most hopelessly deluded righties probably, in
principle, agree.

The whole cemetery becomes a shrine to three religions. Is that
different than putting differing symbols on the town square?

The dead are being used as part of your rationale, but have no bearing
on the displays. Their faith could be put on their headstones, as my
father's was (in a different national cemetery).

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.