Thanks to all for their comments. Obviously if I buy used I am going to
learn in it, and then I will know better what I really want.

What I most want to avoid is a boat that is designed for use by experts,
and would be difficult for me to learn to use. My paddling instructor
advised against the Ocoee, for example, even though he had one he wanted
to sell.

I will say that my personal inclination is probably to bigger water in
bigger streams, rather than difficult technical small streams. I am
more oriented to tripping than class IV, in terms of my paddling goals.
I may think that I need to paddle some class IV to improve my skills,
so that class III wilderness rivers will not seem so tough. The short
playboats, that look like kayak playboats, seem bizarre to me, but maybe
that is an aesthetic consideration.

I am probably learning bad habits paddling my big boat. The boat has so
much volume it tends to cruise through larger waves, and so stable that
I don't depend as much on bracing for stability. A lot of what I hear
about whitewater paddling doesn't even seem to apply to me in my big
boat. I am expecting to have to climb a learning cliff with almost any
whitewater boat.

Richard



Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Whereas, I'd vote AGAINST the XL series if the OP is expecting to
continue as a serious whitewater paddler. The XL series is obsolete
and it would be a matter of a short length of time before he would want
to sell it for something more current. Buying a used, and slightly
obsolete boat is probably a good idea until he knows exactly what he
wants, but buying something as primitive as an XL is probably a false
economy.

The Probe 14 is a much better suggestion, but if you (OP) check
Mohawk's website (I'm too lazy to do it for you) I'll bet you will find
that your weight is within the range of some of the Probe 12 series. A
great long whitewater boat (with a rabid cult following) is the
Bluehole Sunburst, but there will be a bidding war if one comes on the
market, since Bluehole is again out of production. Another good
big-guy boat that has been around long enough to show up on the
used-boat market is the Outrage X. Two years ago I would have killed
for a used Rival; then I got my Prodigy X!

But if you spring for the price of a new Bell Prodigy X you will want
to kiss me when we meet on the river one day; the expensive Prodigy X
is one schweeeeeeet whitewater canoe!

Generally speaking, you should consider what kind of whitewater you
like best: if you like big water you could get one of the longer boats
suggested here, but if you like (as I do) tight, technical streams then
you should go for a shorter boat that is rated to carry your weight.
Something in the 12' to 13' (I think my Prodigy X is 12'4") range
should make a pretty good all-rounder for someone of your size (and
mine -- 200 and a variable bit) that will be able to handle technical
streams.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
...
I will say that my personal inclination is probably to bigger water in
bigger streams, rather than difficult technical small streams. I am
more oriented to tripping than class IV, in terms of my paddling goals.
I may think that I need to paddle some class IV to improve my skills,
so that class III wilderness rivers will not seem so tough. The short
playboats, that look like kayak playboats, seem bizarre to me, but maybe
that is an aesthetic consideration.
...

I've stayed out of this thread until now, 'cuz I don't know nothin' about
modern playboats (except that I swim a lot when I paddle them). The last
paragraph, though, makes me think you might look at boats more oriented to
tripping - Prospectors or boats in the MRExplorer class. There are a lot of
good ones. They'll be capable of Class 3 loaded and Class 4 if properly
outfitted and if you're accompanied by kayakers skilled in the art of
swif****er rescue. (You can usually assure your safety by volunteering to
carry the beer cooler. Be certain to lash it down securely so it doesn't
come free and distract them.)

I am probably learning bad habits paddling my big boat.

No such thing.

The boat has so
much volume...

which you need in a tripping boat if it's in the right places

it tends to cruise through larger waves,...

getting through big water dry is THE key tripping capability for the boat
and THE key skill for the pilot.

and so stable...

The tripping class boats do trade off some (primary) stability for
maneuverability and composure in disorganized water.

that
I don't depend as much on bracing for stability.

AFAIC, you shouldn't trip in Class 3 water without a couple of solid
braces - not just techniques - instinct. It's something I've been working
on a long time. I make progress only by time-in-the-boat in uncomfortably
large water. (See above about kayaks.) There's some argument that you'll
learn technique and instinct faster in a playboat (in which you really need
it - in a playboat, I get to work on my brace on fla****er) rather than in
your tripper. Maybe. I dunno.

A lot of what I hear
about whitewater paddling doesn't even seem to apply to me in my big
boat.

I know what you mean. When I get Paddler magazine, I read it as though it's
about some totally foreign activity like off-road racing. You're never
going to make its cover by backpaddling gracefully down some dry sneak route
five feet away from some horrible drang und zwang.

The ideas are connected. The hyperconsumerist a-boat-for-every-hole,
a-new-boat-every-six-months model makes it so both last spring's playboats
and less specialized canoes are undervalued in the market place.
Prospectors (or Prospecteurs) will never be obsolete.

I am expecting to have to climb a learning cliff with almost any
whitewater boat.

Finally, the playboats are lousy for poling.

Hth,
Fred Klingener

Richard,

The boat for you just might be the Vertige-X made by the Canadian
company Esquif. It's very close in design to the Dagger Caption but
with softer chines so the rapids don't catch the edges as easily. It
also has just a little less front to back rocker so it has greater
speed than the Caption. Esquif advertises it as a tandem boat but I
have mine set up as a solo canoe. It's not an ideal boat for tight
creeks but it's absolutely great for the rivers that you described.
I've had mine on the Upper Yough, Gauley and a bunch of other heavy
duty rivers where I found it to be very stable and maneuverable. Oh
ya, it's the same length as the Caption, 14 feet.

Jim Michaud


"Richard Ferguson" wrote in
message
...
| Thanks to all for their comments. Obviously if I buy used I am
going to
| learn in it, and then I will know better what I really want.
|
| What I most want to avoid is a boat that is designed for use by
experts,
| and would be difficult for me to learn to use. My paddling
instructor
| advised against the Ocoee, for example, even though he had one he
wanted
| to sell.
|
| I will say that my personal inclination is probably to bigger water
in
| bigger streams, rather than difficult technical small streams. I am
| more oriented to tripping than class IV, in terms of my paddling
goals.
| I may think that I need to paddle some class IV to improve my
skills,
| so that class III wilderness rivers will not seem so tough. The
short
| playboats, that look like kayak playboats, seem bizarre to me, but
maybe
| that is an aesthetic consideration.
|
| I am probably learning bad habits paddling my big boat. The boat
has so
| much volume it tends to cruise through larger waves, and so stable
that
| I don't depend as much on bracing for stability. A lot of what I
hear
| about whitewater paddling doesn't even seem to apply to me in my big
| boat. I am expecting to have to climb a learning cliff with almost
any
| whitewater boat.
|
| Richard
|
|
|
| Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
|
| Whereas, I'd vote AGAINST the XL series if the OP is expecting to
| continue as a serious whitewater paddler. The XL series is
obsolete
| and it would be a matter of a short length of time before he would
want
| to sell it for something more current. Buying a used, and
slightly
| obsolete boat is probably a good idea until he knows exactly what
he
| wants, but buying something as primitive as an XL is probably a
false
| economy.
|
| The Probe 14 is a much better suggestion, but if you (OP) check
| Mohawk's website (I'm too lazy to do it for you) I'll bet you will
find
| that your weight is within the range of some of the Probe 12
series. A
| great long whitewater boat (with a rabid cult following) is the
| Bluehole Sunburst, but there will be a bidding war if one comes on
the
| market, since Bluehole is again out of production. Another good
| big-guy boat that has been around long enough to show up on the
| used-boat market is the Outrage X. Two years ago I would have
killed
| for a used Rival; then I got my Prodigy X!
|
| But if you spring for the price of a new Bell Prodigy X you will
want
| to kiss me when we meet on the river one day; the expensive
Prodigy X
| is one schweeeeeeet whitewater canoe!
|
| Generally speaking, you should consider what kind of whitewater
you
| like best: if you like big water you could get one of the longer
boats
| suggested here, but if you like (as I do) tight, technical streams
then
| you should go for a shorter boat that is rated to carry your
weight.
| Something in the 12' to 13' (I think my Prodigy X is 12'4") range
| should make a pretty good all-rounder for someone of your size
(and
| mine -- 200 and a variable bit) that will be able to handle
technical
| streams.
|
| -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
| --

Where you at? I'll make you a heck of a deal on a Dagger Genesis.


-Dan


On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 05:06:47 GMT, Richard Ferguson
wrote:

Thanks to all for their comments. Obviously if I buy used I am going to
learn in it, and then I will know better what I really want.

What I most want to avoid is a boat that is designed for use by experts,
and would be difficult for me to learn to use. My paddling instructor
advised against the Ocoee, for example, even though he had one he wanted
to sell.

I live in Colorado. We expect to travel to Arizona and New Mexico in
the next few months, so I could potentially pick up a canoe in those
states without going greatly out of my way.

Richard



Dan Valleskey wrote:

Where you at? I'll make you a heck of a deal on a Dagger Genesis.


-Dan


On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 05:06:47 GMT, Richard Ferguson
wrote:


Thanks to all for their comments. Obviously if I buy used I am going to
learn in it, and then I will know better what I really want.

What I most want to avoid is a boat that is designed for use by experts,
and would be difficult for me to learn to use. My paddling instructor
advised against the Ocoee, for example, even though he had one he wanted
to sell.





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