Whereas, I'd vote AGAINST the XL series if the OP is expecting to
continue as a serious whitewater paddler. The XL series is obsolete
and it would be a matter of a short length of time before he would want
to sell it for something more current. Buying a used, and slightly
obsolete boat is probably a good idea until he knows exactly what he
wants, but buying something as primitive as an XL is probably a false
economy.

The Probe 14 is a much better suggestion, but if you (OP) check
Mohawk's website (I'm too lazy to do it for you) I'll bet you will find
that your weight is within the range of some of the Probe 12 series. A
great long whitewater boat (with a rabid cult following) is the
Bluehole Sunburst, but there will be a bidding war if one comes on the
market, since Bluehole is again out of production. Another good
big-guy boat that has been around long enough to show up on the
used-boat market is the Outrage X. Two years ago I would have killed
for a used Rival; then I got my Prodigy X!

But if you spring for the price of a new Bell Prodigy X you will want
to kiss me when we meet on the river one day; the expensive Prodigy X
is one schweeeeeeet whitewater canoe!

Generally speaking, you should consider what kind of whitewater you
like best: if you like big water you could get one of the longer boats
suggested here, but if you like (as I do) tight, technical streams then
you should go for a shorter boat that is rated to carry your weight.
Something in the 12' to 13' (I think my Prodigy X is 12'4") range
should make a pretty good all-rounder for someone of your size (and
mine -- 200 and a variable bit) that will be able to handle technical
streams.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
.. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
.. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================



Grip wrote:
I mainly paddle WW kayaks, but also have an XL-13 Mohawk I got cheap. Very
stable, pretty dry on class III, not super fast, but the stability and
handling is good. It was a good choice when deciding to try a new craft on
WW. I vote the XL series as well
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...
You would probably like the Mohawk XL14 or even XL15. Wide, forgiving,
should be pretty cheap used. A step up would be the Probe 14.

Steve

Richard Ferguson wrote:
I am planning to buy a whitewater canoe, preferably used. I looked a
little on the web, but found little on how to choose a whitewater canoe.

I have been running whitewater in my Old Town Camper canoe, not exactly
the right canoe for the job, but I have successfully run class III. I
got carried away and added a removable saddle and thigh straps, sort of
like putting racing stripes on a VW bus. The people I paddle with have
been bugging me to get a real whitewater boat, they say that I have the
skills, I just need a better boat.

Given that I have been paddling a 36 inch wide and 16 foot long canoe, I
don't want too radical a change, although any whitewater canoe would be
a big change. One of the local people had a boat for sale, but he said
that it was probably more extreme than was appropriate for me. I weigh
200 pounds, so I need a larger boat, especially if I add camping gear.
Are there any common models that I might find used that I should look
for? Are there any relatively inexpensive new models worth considering?
I suppose I am looking for a whitewater canoe appropriate for larger
intermediate whitewater paddlers.

Since I have no experience to speak of in whitewater canoes, I am
inclined to think that a paddle test is of limited use for me. When I
have paddled whitewater canoes on flat water they feel very strange and
unstable. I guess if I sat in one and flipped it in flat water that
might be a reason not to buy it. ;-) Rather than depend on my own
uneducated taste, I would rather get an appropriate whitewater boat and
gradually become accustomed to it.

Comments? Suggestions?

Richard



--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

The Sunburst-II is now sold by Evergreen Canoes in Ontario.
They use the Blue-Hole molds.

Sylvain

Thanks to all for their comments. Obviously if I buy used I am going to
learn in it, and then I will know better what I really want.

What I most want to avoid is a boat that is designed for use by experts,
and would be difficult for me to learn to use. My paddling instructor
advised against the Ocoee, for example, even though he had one he wanted
to sell.

I will say that my personal inclination is probably to bigger water in
bigger streams, rather than difficult technical small streams. I am
more oriented to tripping than class IV, in terms of my paddling goals.
I may think that I need to paddle some class IV to improve my skills,
so that class III wilderness rivers will not seem so tough. The short
playboats, that look like kayak playboats, seem bizarre to me, but maybe
that is an aesthetic consideration.

I am probably learning bad habits paddling my big boat. The boat has so
much volume it tends to cruise through larger waves, and so stable that
I don't depend as much on bracing for stability. A lot of what I hear
about whitewater paddling doesn't even seem to apply to me in my big
boat. I am expecting to have to climb a learning cliff with almost any
whitewater boat.

Richard



Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Whereas, I'd vote AGAINST the XL series if the OP is expecting to
continue as a serious whitewater paddler. The XL series is obsolete
and it would be a matter of a short length of time before he would want
to sell it for something more current. Buying a used, and slightly
obsolete boat is probably a good idea until he knows exactly what he
wants, but buying something as primitive as an XL is probably a false
economy.

The Probe 14 is a much better suggestion, but if you (OP) check
Mohawk's website (I'm too lazy to do it for you) I'll bet you will find
that your weight is within the range of some of the Probe 12 series. A
great long whitewater boat (with a rabid cult following) is the
Bluehole Sunburst, but there will be a bidding war if one comes on the
market, since Bluehole is again out of production. Another good
big-guy boat that has been around long enough to show up on the
used-boat market is the Outrage X. Two years ago I would have killed
for a used Rival; then I got my Prodigy X!

But if you spring for the price of a new Bell Prodigy X you will want
to kiss me when we meet on the river one day; the expensive Prodigy X
is one schweeeeeeet whitewater canoe!

Generally speaking, you should consider what kind of whitewater you
like best: if you like big water you could get one of the longer boats
suggested here, but if you like (as I do) tight, technical streams then
you should go for a shorter boat that is rated to carry your weight.
Something in the 12' to 13' (I think my Prodigy X is 12'4") range
should make a pretty good all-rounder for someone of your size (and
mine -- 200 and a variable bit) that will be able to handle technical
streams.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
...
I will say that my personal inclination is probably to bigger water in
bigger streams, rather than difficult technical small streams. I am
more oriented to tripping than class IV, in terms of my paddling goals.
I may think that I need to paddle some class IV to improve my skills,
so that class III wilderness rivers will not seem so tough. The short
playboats, that look like kayak playboats, seem bizarre to me, but maybe
that is an aesthetic consideration.
...

I've stayed out of this thread until now, 'cuz I don't know nothin' about
modern playboats (except that I swim a lot when I paddle them). The last
paragraph, though, makes me think you might look at boats more oriented to
tripping - Prospectors or boats in the MRExplorer class. There are a lot of
good ones. They'll be capable of Class 3 loaded and Class 4 if properly
outfitted and if you're accompanied by kayakers skilled in the art of
swif****er rescue. (You can usually assure your safety by volunteering to
carry the beer cooler. Be certain to lash it down securely so it doesn't
come free and distract them.)

I am probably learning bad habits paddling my big boat.

No such thing.

The boat has so
much volume...

which you need in a tripping boat if it's in the right places

it tends to cruise through larger waves,...

getting through big water dry is THE key tripping capability for the boat
and THE key skill for the pilot.

and so stable...

The tripping class boats do trade off some (primary) stability for
maneuverability and composure in disorganized water.

that
I don't depend as much on bracing for stability.

AFAIC, you shouldn't trip in Class 3 water without a couple of solid
braces - not just techniques - instinct. It's something I've been working
on a long time. I make progress only by time-in-the-boat in uncomfortably
large water. (See above about kayaks.) There's some argument that you'll
learn technique and instinct faster in a playboat (in which you really need
it - in a playboat, I get to work on my brace on fla****er) rather than in
your tripper. Maybe. I dunno.

A lot of what I hear
about whitewater paddling doesn't even seem to apply to me in my big
boat.

I know what you mean. When I get Paddler magazine, I read it as though it's
about some totally foreign activity like off-road racing. You're never
going to make its cover by backpaddling gracefully down some dry sneak route
five feet away from some horrible drang und zwang.

The ideas are connected. The hyperconsumerist a-boat-for-every-hole,
a-new-boat-every-six-months model makes it so both last spring's playboats
and less specialized canoes are undervalued in the market place.
Prospectors (or Prospecteurs) will never be obsolete.

I am expecting to have to climb a learning cliff with almost any
whitewater boat.

Finally, the playboats are lousy for poling.

Hth,
Fred Klingener

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Generally speaking, you should consider what kind of whitewater you
like best: if you like big water you could get one of the longer boats
suggested here, but if you like (as I do) tight, technical streams then
you should go for a shorter boat that is rated to carry your weight.

Hey Oci-Wan, when you're on a trip with OC-2 boats having two paddlers,
are you able to keep up?

Last weekend I ran the lower lower Tuolumne (class 1) to watch salmon
with a buncha open canoes. I was paddling my inflatable kayak of course.
We had four canoe flips. In one rescue I did, it was amazing how easily
the boat slipped thru the water, even though it was completely swamped!
Amazing underwater hull speed.

I had to paddle hard to keep up with the OC-2 flotilla, especially
in sections with slow-moving water.

Bill, I am almost never on trips with OC-2s, because almost nobody
paddles whitewater in OC-2s. When I am "social-boating" easy streams
it tends not to be an issue, because most of that crowd aren't
hard-strokers anyway.

Last weekend I went, for the first time in years, on a self-supported
canoe camper -- the Roanoke River below the Fall Line on the Coastl
Plain of Eastern NC. There were two guys soloing trippers (a 16'
Penobscot and a 17' Grumman), one guy in a 14' Bluehole Sunburst II,
one guy in a 12'xx" Mohawk Shaman, and me in my 12'4" Prodigy X. I
didn't see much of the guy in the Shaman, because he got on the water
as much as a half-hour ahead of the rest of us and we caught up with
him as we neared lunch stop, or the end of each day. I noticed that I
needed to take one stroke for each three of the Grumman paddler and for
each two of the Bluehole paddler, just to keep up. But keep up I did
-- I'm in training for my retirement trek (eight years from now),
remember? -- even though we were doing nearly 4 mph with almost no
current to assist us.

I was kinda sore by the end of day two; then I remembered that this was
just how I felt when I was a beginning paddler. At the time I thought
it was inexperience and un-conditioned muscles. Now I realize that,
when I was beginning, all the trips were led by old-schoolers in those
big long boats, whereas I have always paddled shorter whitewater boats.
So now I think those old guys weren't so much tougher than I after
all!

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. . . Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . . ..
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . . . . . . . . . .. cell: (301) 775-0471
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ..
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . . . . . . . . . . . office: (336) 713-5077
================================================== ====================


Bill Tuthill wrote:
Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Generally speaking, you should consider what kind of whitewater you
like best: if you like big water you could get one of the longer boats
suggested here, but if you like (as I do) tight, technical streams then
you should go for a shorter boat that is rated to carry your weight.

Hey Oci-Wan, when you're on a trip with OC-2 boats having two paddlers,
are you able to keep up?

Last weekend I ran the lower lower Tuolumne (class 1) to watch salmon
with a buncha open canoes. I was paddling my inflatable kayak of course.
We had four canoe flips. In one rescue I did, it was amazing how easily
the boat slipped thru the water, even though it was completely swamped!
Amazing underwater hull speed.

I had to paddle hard to keep up with the OC-2 flotilla, especially
in sections with slow-moving water.

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

There were two guys soloing trippers (a 16' Penobscot and a 17'
Grumman), one guy in a 14' Bluehole Sunburst II, one guy in a 12'xx"
Mohawk Shaman, and me in my 12'4" Prodigy X.... I noticed that I needed
to take one stroke for each three of the Grumman paddler and for each
two of the Bluehole paddler, just to keep up.

Do you by any chance have that ratio upside down? You were paddling
fewer strokes, "just to keep up?" How about the guy in the Penobscot,
which is usually considered a fast boat?

But keep up I did --
I'm in training for my retirement trek (eight years from now),
remember? -- even though we were doing nearly 4 mph with almost no
current to assist us.

Good on yah, mate.

Steve
--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

I was kinda sore by the end of day two; then I remembered that this was
just how I felt when I was a beginning paddler. At the time I thought
it was inexperience and un-conditioned muscles. Now I realize that,
when I was beginning, all the trips were led by old-schoolers in those
big long boats, whereas I have always paddled shorter whitewater boats.
So now I think those old guys weren't so much tougher than I after all!

Also it's possible your paddling is more efficient now, both in terms of
stroke selection and execution.

Something similar is often noted on on Grand Canyon trips: a novice
takes the oars, and gets really winded and tired just making lines.
Then an experienced rower takes over, and guides the raft effortlessly.

Richard,

The boat for you just might be the Vertige-X made by the Canadian
company Esquif. It's very close in design to the Dagger Caption but
with softer chines so the rapids don't catch the edges as easily. It
also has just a little less front to back rocker so it has greater
speed than the Caption. Esquif advertises it as a tandem boat but I
have mine set up as a solo canoe. It's not an ideal boat for tight
creeks but it's absolutely great for the rivers that you described.
I've had mine on the Upper Yough, Gauley and a bunch of other heavy
duty rivers where I found it to be very stable and maneuverable. Oh
ya, it's the same length as the Caption, 14 feet.

Jim Michaud


"Richard Ferguson" wrote in
message
...
| Thanks to all for their comments. Obviously if I buy used I am
going to
| learn in it, and then I will know better what I really want.
|
| What I most want to avoid is a boat that is designed for use by
experts,
| and would be difficult for me to learn to use. My paddling
instructor
| advised against the Ocoee, for example, even though he had one he
wanted
| to sell.
|
| I will say that my personal inclination is probably to bigger water
in
| bigger streams, rather than difficult technical small streams. I am
| more oriented to tripping than class IV, in terms of my paddling
goals.
| I may think that I need to paddle some class IV to improve my
skills,
| so that class III wilderness rivers will not seem so tough. The
short
| playboats, that look like kayak playboats, seem bizarre to me, but
maybe
| that is an aesthetic consideration.
|
| I am probably learning bad habits paddling my big boat. The boat
has so
| much volume it tends to cruise through larger waves, and so stable
that
| I don't depend as much on bracing for stability. A lot of what I
hear
| about whitewater paddling doesn't even seem to apply to me in my big
| boat. I am expecting to have to climb a learning cliff with almost
any
| whitewater boat.
|
| Richard
|
|
|
| Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
|
| Whereas, I'd vote AGAINST the XL series if the OP is expecting to
| continue as a serious whitewater paddler. The XL series is
obsolete
| and it would be a matter of a short length of time before he would
want
| to sell it for something more current. Buying a used, and
slightly
| obsolete boat is probably a good idea until he knows exactly what
he
| wants, but buying something as primitive as an XL is probably a
false
| economy.
|
| The Probe 14 is a much better suggestion, but if you (OP) check
| Mohawk's website (I'm too lazy to do it for you) I'll bet you will
find
| that your weight is within the range of some of the Probe 12
series. A
| great long whitewater boat (with a rabid cult following) is the
| Bluehole Sunburst, but there will be a bidding war if one comes on
the
| market, since Bluehole is again out of production. Another good
| big-guy boat that has been around long enough to show up on the
| used-boat market is the Outrage X. Two years ago I would have
killed
| for a used Rival; then I got my Prodigy X!
|
| But if you spring for the price of a new Bell Prodigy X you will
want
| to kiss me when we meet on the river one day; the expensive
Prodigy X
| is one schweeeeeeet whitewater canoe!
|
| Generally speaking, you should consider what kind of whitewater
you
| like best: if you like big water you could get one of the longer
boats
| suggested here, but if you like (as I do) tight, technical streams
then
| you should go for a shorter boat that is rated to carry your
weight.
| Something in the 12' to 13' (I think my Prodigy X is 12'4") range
| should make a pretty good all-rounder for someone of your size
(and
| mine -- 200 and a variable bit) that will be able to handle
technical
| streams.
|
| -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
| --

Yuh, ratio is on its head. Three of mine for one in the Grumman. Two
of mine for one in the Bluehole. This was just a passing notion when I
happened to be close to these two boats; I didn't compare to the
Penobscot or the Shaman.

Coming yer way this weekend Steve. Lookin' for some Class II or II-III
water south of here, so I'm planning on Upper Hooch Friday, Section II
Saturday, and Little T Sunday.

-R



Steve Cramer wrote:
Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

There were two guys soloing trippers (a 16' Penobscot and a 17'
Grumman), one guy in a 14' Bluehole Sunburst II, one guy in a 12'xx"
Mohawk Shaman, and me in my 12'4" Prodigy X.... I noticed that I needed
to take one stroke for each three of the Grumman paddler and for each
two of the Bluehole paddler, just to keep up.

Do you by any chance have that ratio upside down? You were paddling
fewer strokes, "just to keep up?" How about the guy in the Penobscot,
which is usually considered a fast boat?

But keep up I did --
I'm in training for my retirement trek (eight years from now),
remember? -- even though we were doing nearly 4 mph with almost no
current to assist us.

Good on yah, mate.

Steve
--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA