tak wrote:
Thinking of the Battle of Tours (~mid-700's) Ending the Moorish thrust into
France by way of Spain?


Possibly. That was well before the Crusades, by more years than there
are between Presidents George Washington & George Bush!

But I guess, what's a couple hundred years or so, it's ancient history
anyway


Also significant was the Battle of Lopinto(?)--Sea battle won by an Italian
lead Fleet vs. the Turks (mid-1600's?)


Yes, and that was probably more significant than the siege of Vienna
IMHO (not to take away from Sobieski's victory), because it showed that
the Turks were not the equal of European states in industry &
technology, plus this battle determined who would control the wealthiest
trade routes of the time.

And of course, The Defeat of the Turks at the Gates of Vienna. Departure
points for further reseach on the current thread-All three Battles
considered turning points in a long, long war between Christian West and
Moslem East.


A war that some people on both sides would like to reignite, for no
better reason than their imaginary friend's urging. Some even pretend
this war has been going on all the time.

Scary... but those who are ignorant can be more easily persuaded. Which
IMHO is one reason why the Bush Administration and it's followers are
determined to dismantle the U.S. education system.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
...
tak wrote:
Thinking of the Battle of Tours (~mid-700's) Ending the Moorish thrust
into
France by way of Spain?


Possibly. That was well before the Crusades, by more years than there
are between Presidents George Washington & George Bush!

But I guess, what's a couple hundred years or so, it's ancient history
anyway


Also significant was the Battle of Lopinto(?)--Sea battle won by an
Italian
lead Fleet vs. the Turks (mid-1600's?)


Yes, and that was probably more significant than the siege of Vienna
IMHO (not to take away from Sobieski's victory), because it showed that
the Turks were not the equal of European states in industry &
technology, plus this battle determined who would control the wealthiest
trade routes of the time.

And of course, The Defeat of the Turks at the Gates of Vienna. Departure
points for further reseach on the current thread-All three Battles
considered turning points in a long, long war between Christian West and
Moslem East.


A war that some people on both sides would like to reignite, for no

better reason than their imaginary friend's urging. Some even pretend
this war has been going on all the time.

Scary... but those who are ignorant can be more easily persuaded. Which
IMHO is one reason why the Bush Administration and it's followers are
determined to dismantle the U.S. education system.

DSK

Somewhat the same line of reasoning on the subject of manipulation or
spinning, albeit an even darker world view held by the speaker:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the
country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag
the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials