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What Makes a Political Liberal
John even though I disagree with the premise of your cut 'n paste, I do have to
applaud it's accuracy in one or two areas. If a handful of liberals set out to identify the distinguishing characteristics of contemporary conservatism, it wouldn't be surprising that they would identify abstract factors such as: * Fear and aggression * Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity * Uncertainty avoidance * Need for cognitive closure * Terror management According to the author of this cut'n paste, the best analysis of liberalism that can be reached by the finest conservative minds is: * They're f'ing morons Just about forced to agree that such a comparison is an accurate reflection of abstract thinking demonstrated by liberals vs. consevatives. Furthermore, the author of the cut n' paste recommends that conservatives go out and "whump" liberals with sticks. Also an accurate reflection of the difference between problem solving approaches and intellectual debating abilities. Thanks for another deadly accurate insight into the conservative mind set. Anybody eavesdropping on your self congratulatory fantasy radio stations already knew that most conservatives think this way, so it is good to see that you take special pride in the fact that it is indeed so. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:33:30 +0000, JohnH wrote:
Well, I think my study was pretty thorough on what makes a liberal,... Huh? You never made it past your own borders. You don't even have "liberals" and 'conservatives" in the US - you have "democrats" and "republicans". For liberals and conservatives, come to Canada. (and in England they're called "tories" and "whigs") Now crawl back under your rock and count the insects there, assuming that's All the Insects in All the World. Lloyd |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Lloyd Sumpter wrote: On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:33:30 +0000, JohnH wrote: Well, I think my study was pretty thorough on what makes a liberal,... Huh? You never made it past your own borders. You don't even have "liberals" and 'conservatives" in the US - you have "democrats" and "republicans". For liberals and conservatives, come to Canada. (and in England they're called "tories" and "whigs") Now crawl back under your rock and count the insects there, assuming that's All the Insects in All the World. Lloyd It's worse than that. Most of the so-called conservatives who post here are poorly educated twits, totally lacking in the intellectual underpinnings and morality of the political conservatives that predated Ronald Reagan's election as POTUS. Modern "conservatism" is based upon greed, and is the embodiment of the "I've got mine, so screw you" philosophy. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. Man, you are one wacked out person to make a statement like that. Your assertion flies in the face of the fact that the richest member in Congress are Democrats. Come to think of it, so is Bill Gates as are most of the tinsel town millionaires. ;-) |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Your assertion flies in the face of the fact that the richest member in
Congress are Democrats. Come to think of it, so is Bill Gates as are most of the tinsel town millionaires. ;-) Maybe there are so many rich D's in congress because the D's have to self-finance the early stages of their political careers. Big biz doesn't like to make huge contributions to Democrats. Dumb D's might go off and vote on some issue based on priniciple! Can't have that now, can we? I always find it amusing that huge firms like Enron donate at least "something" to both sides. They may give the R's a few million and the D's maybe 10-percent of that......but they give the D's enough to get noticed and hopefully call in some "favors" in case the D candidate upsets the R. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Jim wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Lloyd Sumpter wrote: On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:33:30 +0000, JohnH wrote: Well, I think my study was pretty thorough on what makes a liberal,... Huh? You never made it past your own borders. You don't even have "liberals" and 'conservatives" in the US - you have "democrats" and "republicans". For liberals and conservatives, come to Canada. (and in England they're called "tories" and "whigs") Now crawl back under your rock and count the insects there, assuming that's All the Insects in All the World. Lloyd It's worse than that. Most of the so-called conservatives who post here are poorly educated twits, totally lacking in the intellectual underpinnings and morality of the political conservatives that predated Ronald Reagan's election as POTUS. Modern "conservatism" is based upon greed, and is the embodiment of the "I've got mine, so screw you" philosophy. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. Man, you are one wacked out person to make a statement like that. Your assertion flies in the face of the fact that the richest member in Congress are Democrats. Come to think of it, so is Bill Gates as are most of the tinsel town millionaires. ;-) You're kinda like your superhero, Bush. Simple-minded and incapable of abstract thinking, and a big fan of sound bites. Feh. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Jim" wrote in message
et... "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Lloyd Sumpter wrote: On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:33:30 +0000, JohnH wrote: Well, I think my study was pretty thorough on what makes a liberal,... Huh? You never made it past your own borders. You don't even have "liberals" and 'conservatives" in the US - you have "democrats" and "republicans". For liberals and conservatives, come to Canada. (and in England they're called "tories" and "whigs") Now crawl back under your rock and count the insects there, assuming that's All the Insects in All the World. Lloyd It's worse than that. Most of the so-called conservatives who post here are poorly educated twits, totally lacking in the intellectual underpinnings and morality of the political conservatives that predated Ronald Reagan's election as POTUS. Modern "conservatism" is based upon greed, and is the embodiment of the "I've got mine, so screw you" philosophy. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. Man, you are one wacked out person to make a statement like that. Your assertion flies in the face of the fact that the richest member in Congress are Democrats. Come to think of it, so is Bill Gates as are most of the tinsel town millionaires. ;-) But you have to understand that the foundation for modern liberalism in the US today is a belief that liberals believe they are morally and intellectually superior to all others...they have their own set of rules and are better equipped to make the decisions for the rest of us unwashed conservative heathens. They have to keep the poor poor because if they were self sufficient they would vote Repub... |
What Makes a Political Liberal
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What Makes a Political Liberal
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What Makes a Political Liberal
"DSK" wrote in message ... wrote: You talk of right wing whackos as if the left has none. Not at all I am embarrassed by the right wing wackos and would certainly prefer if they would disappear quietly. The difference though, is that the left is defined by the wackos. Again, not at all. This is a method of discrediting anything you disagree with as being propagated by "whackos" before even starting. And you want to claim a halo for being of so reasonable and logical..... NOT I don't discredit it because I disagree with it, I discredit it because more and more, the left is defined by special interest groups and extremists. Take a look at the 2004 candidates - all but Lieberman are trying to "out-left" each other, thinking that this is the only way to stand apart from the crowd, and hoping to get the vote. In my opinion, any program that takes my money and rewards someone for doing nothing, or misuses it, is repulsive. Both parties are guilty of misuse of funds, but the majority comes from social programs and entitlement programs designed by the Dems. Look at CA, they extend these programs to people who are breaking the law (illegal immigrants) while denying them to to citizens. If they had any brains at all, they would allow the illegals to work there (doing the jobs we're too proud to do anyway) and tax the income...maybe whittle down a little of that $38 billion debt. Don't even get me started on the 9th Circus Court...how about San Fransisco paying for sex change operations for city workers...just a few examples of the policies coming from the left. Maybe Michael Moore should run in '04, he'd beat 'em all... I think it boils down to this...call someone a leftist, and they deny it and act insulted...call be a right wing conservative and I proudly, openly acknowledge it. I will openly discuss my goals and motives, while the left claims impartiality and swears they are not biased. If you were capable of having a conversation on the basis of fact, not namecalling, I would gladly engage you. I guess you have not followed this NG very long. I'd much prefer to talk boats, and the few times I get into political discussions it's either serious (as in the economics thread above) or for humor, as when clubbing NOBBY and some of the other right-wing whackos here (who all try to position themselves as "conservatives"). The only one with a lick of sense seems to be JohnH, and he gets dragged over the edge all too often. I've been following the NG since 1997, after purchasing my Grand Banks 46 Let's start with the left's idea that it's the government's responsibility to find you a job...just yesterday one of the dwarves spole to the AFL-CIO and question after question was "What are you going to do to find me this or get me that?" Get up off your ass and do it yourself! That would appear to be more than just "the left." Anybody who is worried about his financial future is not automatically a leftist, so sorry. No, but anyone who is a member of a union automatically IS a leftist. Unions may have had a place in society at one time, but they are not counterproductive. All they do is breed nepotism and interfere with free competition. How is it that someone who moves boxes around on a dock can make as much as I make with two degrees and state licensure as a Forensic Engineer? Granted, cost of living has some factor, but explain to me how the two jobs are of equal worth. Unskilled labor vs. technical and legal analysis. Where I live, you can't do random drug testing at the fire dept. because the union won't allow it. Some stoned jackass is going to kill somebody one of these days as a direct result of union policy. Why do unions cry every time someone wants to put a job out for competitive bid? Because they can't compete. They are a burden to society, and anyone who is in a union is supporting the ideals, making them leftist by association. As for getting up and doing yourself, that's an admirable concept IMHO. It used to be the American way, before everyone decided that someone else is to blame for all their problems ...I'm sure you'll dismiss me as an ignorant right wing wacko...so be it... Actually, you seem to be somewhat well informed, but badly biased and quiveringly eager to dismiss anything you disagree with as whacko-ism. So yes, I dismiss you. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. DSK |
What Makes a Political Liberal
I don't discredit it because I disagree with it, I discredit it because more
and more, the left is defined by special interest groups and extremists. I understand the left has an exclusive franchise on extremists and special interests. :-) Besides, jealousy will get you nowhere. Take a look at the 2004 candidates - all but Lieberman are trying to "out-left" each other, thinking that this is the only way to stand apart from the crowd, and hoping to get the vote. In my opinion, any program that takes my money and rewards someone for doing nothing, or misuses it, is repulsive. ??????? Care to be more specific? Exactly what programs have the 2004 hopefuls proposed that would take your money and use it to reward people for "doing nothing"? Both parties are guilty of misuse of funds, but the majority comes from social programs and entitlement programs designed by the Dems. The POTUS has the ultimate authority on spending. It's called the veto. The current POTUS has not vetoed one single spending bill during his enitre term. Last I looked, he wasn't a Democrat. Don't even get me started on the 9th Circus Court...how about San Fransisco paying for sex change operations for city workers...just a few examples of the policies coming from the left. Does the City of San Francisco pay for sex change operations, or is it a benefit included in the health insurance policies that City Workers (likely) fund with deductions from their pay checks? I think it boils down to this...call someone a leftist, and they deny it and act insulted.. Horsefeathers. Just because you might intend it as an insult doesn't make it one. A lot of left leaners, self included, are proud of our principles and our priorities. call be a right wing conservative and I proudly, openly acknowledge it. I will openly discuss my goals and motives, while the left claims impartiality and swears they are not biased. Not only are you an expert on what you stand for, you claim to be expert on what everybody else stands for (based on label) too. Why would you seek discussion if you are confident you have all the anwers? No, but anyone who is a member of a union automatically IS a leftist. No more than anybody who is a registered Republican automatically IS a fascist. Our forefathers framed a government based upon separation of powers. Will Congress Defend the Constitution of the United States? http://larouchein2004.net/pages/othe...09dodreorg.htm |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Unions may have had a place in society at one time, but they are not
counterproductive. All they do is breed nepotism and interfere with free competition. How is it that someone who moves boxes around on a dock can make as much as I make with two degrees and state licensure as a Forensic Engineer? Granted, cost of living has some factor, but explain to me how the two jobs are of equal worth. Unskilled labor vs. technical and legal analysis. Huh? What happened to free competition. ? If the box movers can convince society that their services are worth more than Forensic Engineers, more power to them. Naturally, jealous Forensic Engineers will disagree. By the way, some of those guys "moving boxes" (longshore work is far more technical and dangerous than that, btw) probably have more education than many engineers. Some of them used to have white collar jobs, before "free competition" prevailed and the guys working for $2/hour US in Russia or India won the engineering and accounting jobs. Where I live, you can't do random drug testing at the fire dept. because the union won't allow it. Some stoned jackass is going to kill somebody one of these days as a direct result of union policy. When that happens, the jackass and his two immediate supervisors should be fired- or maybe jailed. You can't sit around the firehouse and get stoned without somebody knowing about it. You might find it surprising, but pee tests are almost TOTALLY defeatable. There's an OTC product called "Clean Pee" that works almost 100 percent of the time. (It's probably even sold in drug stores that require their new hires to take a pee test). For $10 bucks, a clean and sober buddy will pee in the cup for you, or pee into a test tube you cap and take into the restroom. Why would this be news to a guy working in forensics? Why do unions cry every time someone wants to put a job out for competitive bid? Because they can't compete. They are a burden to society, and anyone who is in a union is supporting the ideals, making them leftist by association. Who hires Forensic Engineers? Sounds like a civil service job to me. If so, good thing *you* are required to submit a competitive bid every time an opportunity to ply your trade arises. That should keep your income suitably suppressed. We wouldn't want some government agency to guarantee you a certain annual income and benefits (all at taxpayers expense) along with some measure of protection against unjust or politically motivated firing... those things might discourage free competition for *your* job, and make you a leftist by association. Seen on a bumper sticker: "Unions, The people who brought you the weekend." |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Unions may have had a place in society at one time, but they are not counterproductive. All they do is breed nepotism and interfere with free competition. How is it that someone who moves boxes around on a dock can make as much as I make with two degrees and state licensure as a Forensic Engineer? Granted, cost of living has some factor, but explain to me how the two jobs are of equal worth. Unskilled labor vs. technical and legal analysis. Huh? What happened to free competition. ? If the box movers can convince society that their services are worth more than Forensic Engineers, more power to them. Naturally, jealous Forensic Engineers will disagree. By the way, some of those guys "moving boxes" (longshore work is far more technical and dangerous than that, btw) probably have more education than many engineers. Some of them used to have white collar jobs, before "free competition" prevailed and the guys working for $2/hour US in Russia or India won the engineering and accounting jobs. Where I live, you can't do random drug testing at the fire dept. because the union won't allow it. Some stoned jackass is going to kill somebody one of these days as a direct result of union policy. When that happens, the jackass and his two immediate supervisors should be fired- or maybe jailed. You can't sit around the firehouse and get stoned without somebody knowing about it. You might find it surprising, but pee tests are almost TOTALLY defeatable. There's an OTC product called "Clean Pee" that works almost 100 percent of the time. (It's probably even sold in drug stores that require their new hires to take a pee test). For $10 bucks, a clean and sober buddy will pee in the cup for you, or pee into a test tube you cap and take into the restroom. Why would this be news to a guy working in forensics? Why do unions cry every time someone wants to put a job out for competitive bid? Because they can't compete. They are a burden to society, and anyone who is in a union is supporting the ideals, making them leftist by association. Who hires Forensic Engineers? Sounds like a civil service job to me. If so, good thing *you* are required to submit a competitive bid every time an opportunity to ply your trade arises. That should keep your income suitably suppressed. We wouldn't want some government agency to guarantee you a certain annual income and benefits (all at taxpayers expense) along with some measure of protection against unjust or politically motivated firing... those things might discourage free competition for *your* job, and make you a leftist by association. Seen on a bumper sticker: "Unions, The people who brought you the weekend." I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence? So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence?
So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation. Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far more than an individual worker could ever influence the management. And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th, and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living, etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't "held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide. Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together, negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be free of the union influence.) :-) Management has done the same thing for decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies, shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is that "leftism", or just "good business"? Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as little as companies with more progressive management? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers. Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies for anti-labor laws. Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense. Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) |
What Makes a Political Liberal
On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence? So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation. Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far more than an individual worker could ever influence the management. And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th, and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living, etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't "held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide. Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together, negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be free of the union influence.) :-) Management has done the same thing for decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies, shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is that "leftism", or just "good business"? Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as little as companies with more progressive management? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers. Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies for anti-labor laws. Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense. Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) When you're good, you're damned good. :o) My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took a temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a long time since I went home that tired. Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue. Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine" is heard from coast to coast. I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't. It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one. It would upset their lifestyle. The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or you want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he can help, but he's not cheap. noah Courtesy of Lee Yeaton, See the boats of rec.boats www.TheBayGuide.com/rec.boats |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"noah" wrote in message ... On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence? So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation. Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far more than an individual worker could ever influence the management. And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th, and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living, etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't "held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide. Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together, negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be free of the union influence.) :-) Management has done the same thing for decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies, shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is that "leftism", or just "good business"? Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as little as companies with more progressive management? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers. Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies for anti-labor laws. Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense. Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) When you're good, you're damned good. :o) My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took a temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a long time since I went home that tired. Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue. Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine" is heard from coast to coast. I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't. What the heck does being able to do a hard days work have to do with unions? I worked as a garbage collector for 2 summers and as a factory worker for 3 summers in high school and college. Hard work. Long days. No union. Imagine that. But I can tell you countless stories of auto workers (union) sleeping on the job. But we won't get into that, OK? It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one. It would upset their lifestyle. Exactly where did anyone begrudge the lifestyles of union workers? The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or you want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he can help, but he's not cheap. Actually I will call a non union plumber, mechanic or GC. I will get good work at a fair price. Are you a union worker Noah? Did I strike a nerve? |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence? So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation. Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far more than an individual worker could ever influence the management. I guess you don't have too much faith in your abilities or you are just a poor performer. I have never had a problem negotiating pay increases based on my contributions. Most hard workers who contribute to the bottom line do not have problems either. They negotiate one on one based on their skills and contributions. Unions lead to mediocrity. Why work hard or perform over and beyond? You will get the same pay increase no matter what. And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. So how have they improved the lives of the workers in the 21st century? And Chuck, don't tell anyone but it is actually 2.5 years old. Let's look at the 20th, and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living, etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't "held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide. Continue living in the past Chuck. Not me though. But if you want to, provide some facts on how the unions have improved the lives of workers in the late 20th century, say from 1985 on. Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together, negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be free of the union influence.) :-) And the collective bargaining leads to lower productivity and mediocrity. If you need it, fine. Most people with skills and talent don't need a group to bargain for them. Management has done the same thing for decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies, shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is that "leftism", or just "good business"? Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as little as companies with more progressive management? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers. Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies for anti-labor laws. Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense. You forgot the part about padding their pockets. That is where most of the money goes. Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) Perhaps if you took your time you could have provided some better answers. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Jim wrote: "noah" wrote in message ... On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence? So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation. Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far more than an individual worker could ever influence the management. And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th, and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living, etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't "held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide. Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together, negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be free of the union influence.) :-) Management has done the same thing for decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies, shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is that "leftism", or just "good business"? Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as little as companies with more progressive management? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers. Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies for anti-labor laws. Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense. Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) When you're good, you're damned good. :o) My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took a temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a long time since I went home that tired. Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue. Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine" is heard from coast to coast. I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't. What the heck does being able to do a hard days work have to do with unions? I worked as a garbage collector for 2 summers and as a factory worker for 3 summers in high school and college. Hard work. Long days. No union. Imagine that. But I can tell you countless stories of auto workers (union) sleeping on the job. But we won't get into that, OK? It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one. It would upset their lifestyle. Exactly where did anyone begrudge the lifestyles of union workers? The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or you want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he can help, but he's not cheap. Actually I will call a non union plumber, mechanic or GC. I will get good work at a fair price. Are you a union worker Noah? Did I strike a nerve? I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's card in one of the skilled construction trades. For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert services to unions. I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university in the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my degrees were from trade schools within those universities. I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat. I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues. Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky. Smoke that. Why should I care what you do or have done? |
What Makes a Political Liberal
I guess you don't have too much faith in your abilities or you are just a
poor performer. Wouldn't know. For 90% of my career to date I have been either self employed or in management. I haven't worked for wages since 1973. My income has always been from partnership and corporate income, royalties, sales commissions, rents, etc. How well do I do? Let's just say I routinely make subtantially more than those folks who "move boxes around." Very few people can do what I have done, and can do, to earn a living. I personally don't need a union, but others might. WE should all be aware of what needs may be present in society beyond our own personal sphere. Look at your next two paragraphs and consider how they unintentionally contradict one another: I have never had a problem negotiating pay increases based on my contributions. Most hard workers who contribute to the bottom line do not have problems either. They negotiate one on one based on their skills and contributions. Unions lead to mediocrity. Why work hard or perform over and beyond? You will get the same pay increase no matter what. In one paragraph you detail how you take pride in doing a good job and making a contribution. In the next, you surmise that union workers are incapable of being motivated by the same factors. And the collective bargaining leads to lower productivity and mediocrity. If you need it, fine. Most people with skills and talent don't need a group to bargain for them. Slave wages lead to low productivity, too. You forgot the part about padding their pockets. That is where most of the money goes. Got a specific example, or just a quick sound byte? Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) Perhaps if you took your time you could have provided some better answers. And if Jesus, Buddha, and Vishnu all knocked on your front door and told you that unions have some useful purposes these days, you'd still remain unconvinced and take up atheism. :-) |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Jim wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Jim wrote: "noah" wrote in message ... On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence? So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation. Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far more than an individual worker could ever influence the management. And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th, and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living, etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't "held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide. Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together, negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be free of the union influence.) :-) Management has done the same thing for decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies, shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is that "leftism", or just "good business"? Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as little as companies with more progressive management? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers. Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies for anti-labor laws. Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense. Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) When you're good, you're damned good. :o) My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took a temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a long time since I went home that tired. Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue. Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine" is heard from coast to coast. I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't. What the heck does being able to do a hard days work have to do with unions? I worked as a garbage collector for 2 summers and as a factory worker for 3 summers in high school and college. Hard work. Long days. No union. Imagine that. But I can tell you countless stories of auto workers (union) sleeping on the job. But we won't get into that, OK? It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one. It would upset their lifestyle. Exactly where did anyone begrudge the lifestyles of union workers? The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or you want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he can help, but he's not cheap. Actually I will call a non union plumber, mechanic or GC. I will get good work at a fair price. Are you a union worker Noah? Did I strike a nerve? I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's card in one of the skilled construction trades. For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert services to unions. I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university in the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my degrees were from trade schools within those universities. I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat. I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues. Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky. Smoke that. Why should I care what you do or have done? Obviously, unions and union members "strike a nerve" with you. Well, I am a union member personified, fella. I pay my dues with a smile, because I know that my union is the only organization in my life that is watching out for me and my interests. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Jim wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Jim wrote: "noah" wrote in message ... On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence? So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation. Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far more than an individual worker could ever influence the management. And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th, and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living, etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't "held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide. Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together, negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be free of the union influence.) :-) Management has done the same thing for decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies, shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is that "leftism", or just "good business"? Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as little as companies with more progressive management? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers. Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies for anti-labor laws. Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense. Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) When you're good, you're damned good. :o) My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took a temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a long time since I went home that tired. Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue. Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine" is heard from coast to coast. I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't. What the heck does being able to do a hard days work have to do with unions? I worked as a garbage collector for 2 summers and as a factory worker for 3 summers in high school and college. Hard work. Long days. No union. Imagine that. But I can tell you countless stories of auto workers (union) sleeping on the job. But we won't get into that, OK? It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one. It would upset their lifestyle. Exactly where did anyone begrudge the lifestyles of union workers? The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or you want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he can help, but he's not cheap. Actually I will call a non union plumber, mechanic or GC. I will get good work at a fair price. Are you a union worker Noah? Did I strike a nerve? I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's card in one of the skilled construction trades. For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert services to unions. I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university in the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my degrees were from trade schools within those universities. I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat. I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues. Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky. Smoke that. Why should I care what you do or have done? Obviously, unions and union members "strike a nerve" with you. Well, I am a union member personified, fella. I pay my dues with a smile, because I know that my union is the only organization in my life that is watching out for me and my interests. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. Yawn. As I said *fella*, I could give a rats ass what you do or did. Unions do not strike a nerve with me. Based on your venomous replies, as well as those of Noah, I did strike a nerve with you *fellas*. OK *fella*? |
What Makes a Political Liberal
You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to?
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Jim wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Jim wrote: "noah" wrote in message ... On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence? So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are a lib? Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation. Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far more than an individual worker could ever influence the management. And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st century? Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th, and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living, etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't "held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide. Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their contributions to the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters? It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together, negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be free of the union influence.) :-) Management has done the same thing for decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies, shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is that "leftism", or just "good business"? Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as little as companies with more progressive management? What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every week? Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers. Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies for anti-labor laws. Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense. Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) When you're good, you're damned good. :o) My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took a temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a long time since I went home that tired. Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue. Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine" is heard from coast to coast. I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't. What the heck does being able to do a hard days work have to do with unions? I worked as a garbage collector for 2 summers and as a factory worker for 3 summers in high school and college. Hard work. Long days. No union. Imagine that. But I can tell you countless stories of auto workers (union) sleeping on the job. But we won't get into that, OK? It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one. It would upset their lifestyle. Exactly where did anyone begrudge the lifestyles of union workers? The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or you want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he can help, but he's not cheap. Actually I will call a non union plumber, mechanic or GC. I will get good work at a fair price. Are you a union worker Noah? Did I strike a nerve? I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's card in one of the skilled construction trades. For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert services to unions. I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university in the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my degrees were from trade schools within those universities. I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat. I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues. Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky. Smoke that. Why should I care what you do or have done? Obviously, unions and union members "strike a nerve" with you. Well, I am a union member personified, fella. I pay my dues with a smile, because I know that my union is the only organization in my life that is watching out for me and my interests. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Why do you think anyone in here cares about your resume or credentials? If
they are true, who cares? If they are not, who cares? "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's card in one of the skilled construction trades. For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert services to unions. I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university in the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my degrees were from trade schools within those universities. I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat. I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues. Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky. Smoke that. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Apologies in advance for responding to Gould in Jim's response - Gould is
already filtered but I can't let some of his uninformed responses go unanswered... "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Unions may have had a place in society at one time, but they are not counterproductive. All they do is breed nepotism and interfere with free competition. How is it that someone who moves boxes around on a dock can make as much as I make with two degrees and state licensure as a Forensic Engineer? Granted, cost of living has some factor, but explain to me how the two jobs are of equal worth. Unskilled labor vs. technical and legal analysis. Huh? What happened to free competition. ? If the box movers can convince society that their services are worth more than Forensic Engineers, more power to them. Naturally, jealous Forensic Engineers will disagree. By the way, some of those guys "moving boxes" (longshore work is far more technical and dangerous than that, btw) probably have more education than many engineers. Some of them used to have white collar jobs, before "free competition" prevailed and the guys working for $2/hour US in Russia or India won the engineering and accounting jobs. No. my problem was the fact that the longshoremen making 90K a year were fighting the implementation of the technology used by UPS and FedEx every day - a lot of their practices are yesterday's technology. In addition, I don't think it was a coincidenct that the timing of the work stoppage coincided with election time... Where I live, you can't do random drug testing at the fire dept. because the union won't allow it. Some stoned jackass is going to kill somebody one of these days as a direct result of union policy. When that happens, the jackass and his two immediate supervisors should be fired- or maybe jailed. You can't sit around the firehouse and get stoned without somebody knowing about it. You might find it surprising, but pee tests are almost TOTALLY defeatable. There's an OTC product called "Clean Pee" that works almost 100 percent of the time. (It's probably even sold in drug stores that require their new hires to take a pee test). For $10 bucks, a clean and sober buddy will pee in the cup for you, or pee into a test tube you cap and take into the restroom. Why would this be news to a guy working in forensics? Exactly the reason that I don't even acknowlege urine tests - I use blood evidence. The fact that you talk about them as if they would be used in a forensic investigation shows that you are the one who does not know procedures. Blood evidence is required, and immediately after the incident or at random if applicable. And BTW, one of the firemen has a patch growing in his yard, and everyone at the firehouse knows about it, but no one will do anything about it... Why do unions cry every time someone wants to put a job out for competitive bid? Because they can't compete. They are a burden to society, and anyone who is in a union is supporting the ideals, making them leftist by association. Who hires Forensic Engineers? Sounds like a civil service job to me. If so, good thing *you* are required to submit a competitive bid every time an opportunity to ply your trade arises. That should keep your income suitably suppressed. We wouldn't want some government agency to guarantee you a certain annual income and benefits (all at taxpayers expense) along with some measure of protection against unjust or politically motivated firing... those things might discourage free competition for *your* job, and make you a leftist by association. Attorneys, insurance companies, and large corporations are my primary clients, although I will occasionally work for an individual if they want to foot the bill. And yes, I also do work for many government agencies and municipalities. I am in the private sector, and woek 60 to 80 hours per week, thank you. And once again, you are showing your ignorance to the engineering practice. It is illegal for an entity to retain my services on the basis of price. Engineers are required to submit a statement of qualifications, and are chosen on that basis. Once the firm has been selected, then we negotiate a fee for services. Granted, I can't charge twice what my competitor does, but I will say that my firm is the most expensive in our region, and we still manage to hold an 80% market share. Furthermore, unions are not necessary for protection from unjust firings...there is federal legislation in place for that already, and our so-effective court system if you wish to pursue it in civil court... and for the record, yes I am a white collar worker now, with a salary and a bonus dependent on the company's profitability. I do not get raises or bonuses on the basis of a predetermined schedule (unions) and if I quit producing, I'm out on my can, as it should be...when others around me quit producing, I toss them out so they don't sponge my profits... however, I put myself through college, working 45 hours a week on average, doing things like roughnecking, road construction, concrete formwork, framing, and carpentry, so don't tell me I don't know what it's like to work for a living...what I do know is that it's the best motivation to get a white collar career... |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Apologies in advance for responding to Gould in Jim's response - Gould is
already filtered but I can't let some of his uninformed responses go unanswered... Well there's a good trick. "I'm going to call BS on everything you say, but don't even bother to offer any counterpoints because your butt is big time filtered." :-) No. my problem was the fact that the longshoremen making 90K a year were fighting the implementation of the technology used by UPS and FedEx every day - a lot of their practices are yesterday's technology. In addition, I don't think it was a coincidenct that the timing of the work stoppage coincided with election time... What? No wonder this guy's got me on filter. We don't speak the same language. There has been nothing in this thread to this point referring to a specific work stoppage. Where I live, you can't do random drug testing at the fire dept. because the union won't allow it. Some stoned jackass is going to kill somebody one of these days as a direct result of union policy. When that happens, the jackass and his two immediate supervisors should be fired- or maybe jailed. You can't sit around the firehouse and get stoned without somebody knowing about it. You might find it surprising, but pee tests are almost TOTALLY defeatable. There's an OTC product called "Clean Pee" that works almost 100 percent of the time. (It's probably even sold in drug stores that require their new hires to take a pee test). For $10 bucks, a clean and sober buddy will pee in the cup for you, or pee into a test tube you cap and take into the restroom. Why would this be news to a guy working in forensics? Exactly the reason that I don't even acknowlege urine tests - I use blood evidence. The fact that you talk about them as if they would be used in a forensic investigation shows that you are the one who does not know procedures. Once again, a complete disconnect. I said that urine tests were hogwash and that shouldn't be news to a forensic engineer....and filterman comes back with Blood evidence is required, and immediately after the incident or at random if applicable. And BTW, one of the firemen has a patch growing in his yard, and everyone at the firehouse knows about it, but no one will do anything about it... Why do unions cry every time someone wants to put a job out for competitive bid? Because they can't compete. They are a burden to society, and anyone who is in a union is supporting the ideals, making them leftist by association. Who hires Forensic Engineers? Sounds like a civil service job to me. If so, good thing *you* are required to submit a competitive bid every time an opportunity to ply your trade arises. That should keep your income suitably suppressed. We wouldn't want some government agency to guarantee you a certain annual income and benefits (all at taxpayers expense) along with some measure of protection against unjust or politically motivated firing... those things might discourage free competition for *your* job, and make you a leftist by association. Attorneys, insurance companies, and large corporations are my primary clients, although I will occasionally work for an individual if they want to foot the bill. And yes, I also do work for many government agencies and municipalities. I am in the private sector, and woek 60 to 80 hours per week, thank you. And once again, you are showing your ignorance to the engineering practice. It is illegal for an entity to retain my services on the basis of price. Engineers are required to submit a statement of qualifications, and are chosen on that basis. Once the firm has been selected, then we negotiate a fee for services. Granted, I can't charge twice what my competitor does, but I will say that my firm is the most expensive in our region, and we still manage to hold an 80% market share. Furthermore, unions are not necessary for protection from unjust firings...there is federal legislation in place for that already, and our so-effective court system if you wish to pursue it in civil court... and for the record, yes I am a white collar worker now, with a salary and a bonus dependent on the company's profitability. I do not get raises or bonuses on the basis of a predetermined schedule (unions) and if I quit producing, I'm out on my can, as it should be...when others around me quit producing, I toss them out so they don't sponge my profits... however, I put myself through college, working 45 hours a week on average, doing things like roughnecking, road construction, concrete formwork, framing, and carpentry, so don't tell me I don't know what it's like to work for a living...what I do know is that it's the best motivation to get a white collar career... Our forefathers framed a government based upon separation of powers. Will Congress Defend the Constitution of the United States? http://larouchein2004.net/pages/othe...09dodreorg.htm |
What Makes a Political Liberal
wrote:
however, I put myself through college, working 45 hours a week on average, doing things like roughnecking, road construction, concrete formwork, framing, and carpentry, so don't tell me I don't know what it's like to work for a living...what I do know is that it's the best motivation to get a white collar career... Working for a living is the best motivation for getting a white color job? Hope you have a secretary with a high school diploma writing your reports. If not, lawyers must have a field day with your lack of grammar, spelling and logic skills with the written word. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
NOYB wrote:
You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to? My writing has appeared in the publications of at least two dozen labor unions, and at least that many commercial magazines. You sure ask a lot of personal questions for a fella who is afraid to post with his real name. As I stated, I am a dues-paying member of more than one labor union. Oh, and I'm also a card-carrying member of the American Civil Liberties Union. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Harry Krause wrote:
wrote: however, I put myself through college, working 45 hours a week on average, doing things like roughnecking, road construction, concrete formwork, framing, and carpentry, so don't tell me I don't know what it's like to work for a living...what I do know is that it's the best motivation to get a white collar career... Working for a living is the best motivation for getting a white color job? Hope you have a secretary with a high school diploma writing your reports. If not, lawyers must have a field day with your lack of grammar, spelling and logic skills with the written word. Or even a white collar job. Heheh. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
damn, harry.
the only thing you lack to make your anti-american resume complete is a canadian passport and a rainbow sticker on your car. chris Subject: What Makes a Political Liberal From: Harry Krause Date: 8/8/03 2:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: NOYB wrote: You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to? My writing has appeared in the publications of at least two dozen labor unions, and at least that many commercial magazines. You sure ask a lot of personal questions for a fella who is afraid to post with his real name. As I stated, I am a dues-paying member of more than one labor union. Oh, and I'm also a card-carrying member of the American Civil Liberties Union. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
gould,
there may be problems (much of them overhyped) with some unions in the modern economy. but, what our idealogical friends here fail to understand is that non-union blue collar labor needs the unions. for example, i live in houston and have friends that work as operators in the refineries. some are union, some are non-union......it depends on the refinery. "amazingly", total compensation is roughly the same between the two. i dont think this total compensation for non-union would stay constant or increase at the same rate/year if the union ceased to exist. of course, there is no way to really prove this, but it is a hunch i am inflicted with. im sure there are some in here that would beg to differ........and it is all theoretical. they would say the equal compensation is proof that unions are not required anymore. i disagree; i dont trust corporate management, and i think generally history is on my side. non-union wages would fall like a rock without the union setting the bar...... chris Subject: What Makes a Political Liberal From: (Gould 0738) Date: 8/7/03 7:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: I guess you don't have too much faith in your abilities or you are just a poor performer. Wouldn't know. For 90% of my career to date I have been either self employed or in management. I haven't worked for wages since 1973. My income has always been from partnership and corporate income, royalties, sales commissions, rents, etc. How well do I do? Let's just say I routinely make subtantially more than those folks who "move boxes around." Very few people can do what I have done, and can do, to earn a living. I personally don't need a union, but others might. WE should all be aware of what needs may be present in society beyond our own personal sphere. Look at your next two paragraphs and consider how they unintentionally contradict one another: I have never had a problem negotiating pay increases based on my contributions. Most hard workers who contribute to the bottom line do not have problems either. They negotiate one on one based on their skills and contributions. Unions lead to mediocrity. Why work hard or perform over and beyond? You will get the same pay increase no matter what. In one paragraph you detail how you take pride in doing a good job and making a contribution. In the next, you surmise that union workers are incapable of being motivated by the same factors. And the collective bargaining leads to lower productivity and mediocrity. If you need it, fine. Most people with skills and talent don't need a group to bargain for them. Slave wages lead to low productivity, too. You forgot the part about padding their pockets. That is where most of the money goes. Got a specific example, or just a quick sound byte? Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them. No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-) Perhaps if you took your time you could have provided some better answers. And if Jesus, Buddha, and Vishnu all knocked on your front door and told you that unions have some useful purposes these days, you'd still remain unconvinced and take up atheism. :-) |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Harry Krause" wrote in message Working for a living is the best motivation for getting a white color job? Damn Harry, you sound almost as much of a racist as that Skipper dude. ; ) |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to? My writing has appeared in the publications of at least two dozen labor unions, and at least that many commercial magazines. Is there a "writer's" union? You sure ask a lot of personal questions for a fella who is afraid to post with his real name. As I stated, I am a dues-paying member of more than one labor union. Why do you pay dues to unions that don't have anything to do with *your* job? |
What Makes a Political Liberal
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to? My writing has appeared in the publications of at least two dozen labor unions, and at least that many commercial magazines. You sure ask a lot of personal questions for a fella who is afraid to post with his real name. I've provided info about where I live, what kind of boat I have, where I got my undergrad degree, when I got that degree, what kind of degree, where I went to dental school, where I grew up boating, my age, my kid's age, etc. Unless you're looking for an excellent dentist in Naples, you really don't need my name, now do you! |
What Makes a Political Liberal
damn, harry.
the only thing you lack to make your anti-american resume complete is a canadian passport and a rainbow sticker on your car. Labor rights and civil liberties are "anti-American"? Do tell |
What Makes a Political Liberal
ROFL, it is funny that some people don't want competition in politics.
Competition is good for business and good for the country, even if you don't like one party or the other, they keep each other working harder and smarter to stay in power. The country definitely will suffer if we do not have a strong two party system. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... damn, harry. the only thing you lack to make your anti-american resume complete is a canadian passport and a rainbow sticker on your car. Labor rights and civil liberties are "anti-American"? Do tell |
What Makes a Political Liberal
i was being sacrcastic.....you know how it is unpatriotic nowadays to not be a
hypnotized "commander in chief" follower. chris Subject: What Makes a Political Liberal From: (Gould 0738) Date: 8/8/03 6:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: damn, harry. the only thing you lack to make your anti-american resume complete is a canadian passport and a rainbow sticker on your car. Labor rights and civil liberties are "anti-American"? Do tell |
What Makes a Political Liberal
One of the best ways to keep the union out of a shop is to pay the employees
competitively and treat them fairly. Every time the non-union refinery has to raise wages 50 cents an hour to keep its top workers from sliding across town to the union job, we can be pretty sure the management of the non-union plant gets up a new head of anti-union steam. You're probably right that wages in Texas refineries would be the same across the board without union representation. Probably somewhere around $5.75 an hour. right. that swoosh we just heard was this concept going over the head of the foxnews crowd in here. chris |
What Makes a Political Liberal
NOYB wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to? My writing has appeared in the publications of at least two dozen labor unions, and at least that many commercial magazines. Is there a "writer's" union? There are several, perhaps more than several. At different times, I have been a member of three different ones, and I am a member of one now and have been for many years. You sure ask a lot of personal questions for a fella who is afraid to post with his real name. As I stated, I am a dues-paying member of more than one labor union. Why do you pay dues to unions that don't have anything to do with *your* job? Well, the one in which my status is inactive (though I still pay modest dues) is a skilled-trade union, and not easy to get in via examination, as I did, versus a five-year apprenticeship, which I did not do. I had to take an "improver's" course and pass a hellacious multi-day test to prove my mettle with metal, as it were, to get a journeyman's card. It's not something I'd give up easily. And it is helpful to me in my dealings with other trade unionists, many of whom are wary of outsiders. I can go on a job site anywhere in the country, go places on that jobsite that are absolutely closed, and get the interviews I need. There are other reasons, too. Psychic rewards come to mind. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
Hmmmm. You learn something new everyday.
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to? My writing has appeared in the publications of at least two dozen labor unions, and at least that many commercial magazines. Is there a "writer's" union? There are several, perhaps more than several. At different times, I have been a member of three different ones, and I am a member of one now and have been for many years. You sure ask a lot of personal questions for a fella who is afraid to post with his real name. As I stated, I am a dues-paying member of more than one labor union. Why do you pay dues to unions that don't have anything to do with *your* job? Well, the one in which my status is inactive (though I still pay modest dues) is a skilled-trade union, and not easy to get in via examination, as I did, versus a five-year apprenticeship, which I did not do. I had to take an "improver's" course and pass a hellacious multi-day test to prove my mettle with metal, as it were, to get a journeyman's card. It's not something I'd give up easily. And it is helpful to me in my dealings with other trade unionists, many of whom are wary of outsiders. I can go on a job site anywhere in the country, go places on that jobsite that are absolutely closed, and get the interviews I need. There are other reasons, too. Psychic rewards come to mind. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
What Makes a Political Liberal
It's possible that Liberalism and Conservatism do not reflect accurately the
seperate political philosophies that exist. I havn't talked to a REAL Republican or Democrat, for that matter, in 30 years. It's more a case of, my side is somehow more enlightened and capable than your side in managing the affairs of our great nation. In reality, both sides continue to fail miserably at their self centered agenda whilst, blaming the other for it's woes........I gotta tell ya, it's a real joke and worth a couple of yuks to read some of this tripe. To think that ANY political philosphy should blindly be followed and defended in argument, escapes any sense of intelligence in my book. JMTCW....:) "Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message ... On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:33:30 +0000, JohnH wrote: Well, I think my study was pretty thorough on what makes a liberal,... Huh? You never made it past your own borders. You don't even have "liberals" and 'conservatives" in the US - you have "democrats" and "republicans". For liberals and conservatives, come to Canada. (and in England they're called "tories" and "whigs") Now crawl back under your rock and count the insects there, assuming that's All the Insects in All the World. Lloyd |
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