On 1-Dec-2005, "Rick Donnelly" wrote:

I have paddled in full storm 50+ mph winds, waves chopped off from those
winds, w/o a rudder. That said, I had a boat that performed reasonably well
w/o a rudder.

Under those conditions, a rudder can work poorly. If you are on short
wavelength waves, the rudder can spend a lot of time out of the water.
I've watched ruddered kayaks zigzag under those conditions while I
tracked straight in a non-ruddered kayak.

I will never buy an automatic transmisson again - not from any manufacturer.
At best, they make driving dull. At worst, they dictate when shifting should
occur (even when it is unsafe), are slow to respond to demands for power,
and they waste fuel.

I'd almost agree, but CVTs, now available on hybrids and some other vehicles
(like the Freestar) can be a significant improvement over conventional automatics
and provide better fuel economy. I'll give up my standard for a good CVT...
someday.

Mike

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 12/1/05 5:08 PM:


On 1-Dec-2005, "Rick Donnelly" wrote:

I have paddled in full storm 50+ mph winds, waves chopped off from those
winds, w/o a rudder. That said, I had a boat that performed reasonably well
w/o a rudder.

Under those conditions, a rudder can work poorly. If you are on short
wavelength waves, the rudder can spend a lot of time out of the water.
I've watched ruddered kayaks zigzag under those conditions while I
tracked straight in a non-ruddered kayak.

Quite right...

I will never buy an automatic transmisson again - not from any manufacturer.
At best, they make driving dull. At worst, they dictate when shifting should
occur (even when it is unsafe), are slow to respond to demands for power,
and they waste fuel.

I'd almost agree, but CVTs, now available on hybrids and some other vehicles
(like the Freestar) can be a significant improvement over conventional
automatics
and provide better fuel economy. I'll give up my standard for a good CVT...
someday.

Mike

Put whatever transmission you want in a Freestar and it's still a piece of
**** (aka a Dirtstar, as those in the biz like to call them).

I'm with Rick, standard all the way. And no frickin' rudder either.

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:21:52 -0500, KMAN wrote:

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 12/1/05 5:08 PM:


On 1-Dec-2005, "Rick Donnelly" wrote:

I have paddled in full storm 50+ mph winds, waves chopped off from those
winds, w/o a rudder. That said, I had a boat that performed reasonably well
w/o a rudder.

Under those conditions, a rudder can work poorly. If you are on short
wavelength waves, the rudder can spend a lot of time out of the water.
I've watched ruddered kayaks zigzag under those conditions while I
tracked straight in a non-ruddered kayak.

Quite right...

I will never buy an automatic transmisson again - not from any manufacturer.
At best, they make driving dull. At worst, they dictate when shifting should
occur (even when it is unsafe), are slow to respond to demands for power,
and they waste fuel.

I'd almost agree, but CVTs, now available on hybrids and some other vehicles
(like the Freestar) can be a significant improvement over conventional
automatics
and provide better fuel economy. I'll give up my standard for a good CVT...
someday.

Mike

Put whatever transmission you want in a Freestar and it's still a piece of
**** (aka a Dirtstar, as those in the biz like to call them).

I'm with Rick, standard all the way. And no frickin' rudder either.

Hi Kman, I was glad to see your post, and had missed your presence in
these parts recently, and I hoped that we had not hurt your feelings,
and that you were still well. I figure you have maybe been busy with
your friend Keenan selling the tickets to some shindig up there in
OTT, that is coming up soon. Sounds like a lot of fun! Is it a New
Years celebration, or just a fund raiser for his charity work? Seems
he has done this program in previous years. Is this your first year?

Anyway to the subject of this post, I will endorse what your friend
Keenan says about his rudder time. At least as far as it appears from
his website stories about paddling trips. All of the pictures show, to
the best I can determine, that the rudders are there, but up. If you
paddle together very much, I assume you probably follow suite.

Of course you would not be able to use a rudder in some of the
shallower streams, or risk having it torn off. Especially in the
swifts and hell holes that you explored, and swam in! That was what a
class III or IV?

You would not want to do a wet exit and then have to self-rescue with
a rudder in the way, as any of the WW specialist here would attest to.
None of their play boats have rudders that I know of just for that
reason. Using a seakayak in the narrows must be tricky to steer in
fast water though, since I am sure they do not turn on a dime, as they
say! Though you apparently have mastered the art having survived to
write numerous stories.

I also realize that some of the pictures are in big flat water, but
again do not show a deployed rudder, so you must be accomplishing your
turns with something other than a rudder! Unless of course you use
them only during storms and rough weather when you are too busy for
picture taking. Most all the pictures were taken on very placid water,
beautiful, smooth, where you would not need a rudder to control a
barge, and certainly not any tsunami conditions, or breaking surf, or
storm surge. Do they have tsunami in OTT?

As for myself, having started kayaking in a WW kayak on flat water,
and found how frustrating that it is to go anywhere, though I did get
a lot of bracing practice, I will continue to use my rudder on my
bagboats. My Folbot and Klepper, are maybe more like the barge I
mentioned. I figure I can always lean and brace to accomplish a turn,
a rudder just makes it easier. Then it also allows me to hoist a sail,
and sail along, taking a few paddle strokes now and then! A nice quiet
form of motor sailing.

Concerning Auto trans, I often drive 100 miles per day in traffic, and
yeah it may use more gas, but then so does the AC unit, that I use to
keep cool in rush hour parking lots! I don't hear any of the macho
types saying they don't use their AC in summer! Or for that matter up
in the cold north country, where you come from, saying they just turn
off the auto heater, so as to toughen up against the cold!

Actually I did see one picture where the rudder was deployed, but that
was several years ago when the journal indicated you all had first
started kayaking. I won't count that against you though, since I can't
see that it is you in the bright yellow kayak. And besides since you
had just started, you were probably under the impression as a newbie,
that if you had a rudder, you were intended to use it. Especially
since you had probably not master all the paddle and bracing stokes
yet!

Now if I could just figure out how to put a motor on my kayak! Oh
yeah, I did try one this last summer, but that is another story!

RkyMtnHootOwl 0vQ

RkyMtnHootOwl???!!!

New moniker, eh Tink?

On 2 Dec 2005 14:49:06 -0800, BCITORGB wrote:

RkyMtnHootOwl???!!!

New moniker, eh Tink?

Hi Wilf, Yeah, I have been trying to come up with a name that I could
use here and other discussion groups, that had not been used already.
I originally wanted Hootowl, but there were already a bunch of them
posting, or had the email addresses subscribed too. Anyway I hope now
to establish RkyMtmHootOwl as a recognizable name where ever I wander!
I picked up the Hotmail.com, Yahoo.com, and my Qwest.com emails that
should last me awhile.

In addition to Tinker as a childhood friend, I had a Hootowl that was
a special pet, So I thought this was a tribute to "Hooty" who I could
always talk to, and he always listened!

Life is about each moment of breath,
Living, about each breathless moment!

Thanks, KnesisKnosis, aka Tinkerntom, aka TnT
and just for Wilf, "Tink"

and now a friendlier, "RkyMtnHootOwl" 0v0


2 WW kayaks,
'73 Folbot Super,
pre '60 Klepper AEII
77 Hobie Cat 16

To email, use only one "hoot", and I'll get the message!

in article , RkyMtnHootOwl at
wrote on 12/2/05 3:25 AM:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:21:52 -0500, KMAN wrote:

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 12/1/05 5:08 PM:


On 1-Dec-2005, "Rick Donnelly" wrote:

I have paddled in full storm 50+ mph winds, waves chopped off from those
winds, w/o a rudder. That said, I had a boat that performed reasonably well
w/o a rudder.

Under those conditions, a rudder can work poorly. If you are on short
wavelength waves, the rudder can spend a lot of time out of the water.
I've watched ruddered kayaks zigzag under those conditions while I
tracked straight in a non-ruddered kayak.

Quite right...

I will never buy an automatic transmisson again - not from any
manufacturer.
At best, they make driving dull. At worst, they dictate when shifting
should
occur (even when it is unsafe), are slow to respond to demands for power,
and they waste fuel.

I'd almost agree, but CVTs, now available on hybrids and some other vehicles
(like the Freestar) can be a significant improvement over conventional
automatics
and provide better fuel economy. I'll give up my standard for a good CVT...
someday.

Mike

Put whatever transmission you want in a Freestar and it's still a piece of
**** (aka a Dirtstar, as those in the biz like to call them).

I'm with Rick, standard all the way. And no frickin' rudder either.

Hi Kman, I was glad to see your post, and had missed your presence in
these parts recently, and I hoped that we had not hurt your feelings,
and that you were still well.

Who are you, and who is the "we" that would have hurt my feelings? (FYI, I
don't ascribe to the notion that my feelings are subject to injury. My
feelings are derived as a result of my own thinking).

I figure you have maybe been busy with
your friend Keenan selling the tickets to some shindig up there in
OTT, that is coming up soon. Sounds like a lot of fun! Is it a New
Years celebration, or just a fund raiser for his charity work? Seems
he has done this program in previous years. Is this your first year?

Holy christ, what sort of cyberstalker are you? I had no idea what you were
talking about and then realized that there is probably somewhere on the net
a single post where I mentioned what I was planning to do on NYE, and from
somewhere else you've found the first name of the guy who sells the tickets.
Why do you know this? You are scary! Not in the sense that I fear you, but
in the sense that you are a kook!

snip further weird blather filled with identity consusion

Concerning Auto trans, I often drive 100 miles per day in traffic, and
yeah it may use more gas, but then so does the AC unit, that I use to
keep cool in rush hour parking lots! I don't hear any of the macho
types saying they don't use their AC in summer! Or for that matter up
in the cold north country, where you come from, saying they just turn
off the auto heater, so as to toughen up against the cold!

What does this have to do with standard vs auto transmission?

snip further weird blather filled with identity confusion

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 02:05:30 -0500, KMAN wrote:

in article , RkyMtnHootOwl at
wrote on 12/2/05 3:25 AM:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:21:52 -0500, KMAN wrote:

snip

snip

Hi Kman, I was glad to see your post, and had missed your presence in
these parts recently, and I hoped that we had not hurt your feelings,
and that you were still well.

Who are you, and who is the "we" that would have hurt my feelings? (FYI, I
don't ascribe to the notion that my feelings are subject to injury. My
feelings are derived as a result of my own thinking).

That would certainly explain the apparent lack of any injuries! As to
the "we", that would be those of us who continue to post, or lurk in
this NG, who miss your posting when you are off Kamanalizing
elsewhere! As to the "you", you may have to do some reserch on that
one yourself!


I figure you have maybe been busy with
your friend Keenan selling the tickets to some shindig up there in
OTT, that is coming up soon. Sounds like a lot of fun! Is it a New
Years celebration, or just a fund raiser for his charity work? Seems
he has done this program in previous years. Is this your first year?


Holy christ, what sort of cyberstalker are you? I had no idea what you were
talking about and then realized that there is probably somewhere on the net
a single post where I mentioned what I was planning to do on NYE, and from
somewhere else you've found the first name of the guy who sells the tickets.
Why do you know this? You are scary! Not in the sense that I fear you, but
in the sense that you are a kook!

No CS here, just checking out Google pushed links on the R.B.P.
archive! I like to check out and lurk, where there is active posting
going on, and came across a hot bed of activity in the OTT area. Seems
one of the most active posters who lets it all hang out in the public
slipstream is one - Kman! Turns out a friend of mine from years past
is from that area, and I like to read his web posted paddling stories,
and there seems to be a knowledgeable relationship between Kman and
Keenan, who both also post on various OTT NG's.

One of these years, I may even try to make it up to the Folbot Rideau
Canal Flotilla that is held every year up there. Seems that a whole
bunch of Folboters get together up there and explore the beautiful
waterway. I have really appreciated Keenan's pictures, and envy him
his access to so much beautiful country and waterways. I have spent
some lurking time reading his stories.

From previous contact, I knew that he sold ticket to some shindig that
is supposedly the place to be on a particular night in OTT! I may have
read that "single post" by you saying you were involved it this
shindig, but now I could hardly tell you with out doing some serious
googling, and that is time I don't need to spend. I suppose if there
is anything to be learned in all this, is that a person needs to be
careful what they post out here in the "Wild, Wild West" of the
Usenet, since you never know who may read what you put down in
cybercement for anyone to read, forever! Even one single post!

Nothing particularly kookie about it. My Grand-MaMa said

"Fools names, and Fools Faces,
always end up in public places!"

I think she was in particular refering to the writing on public
bathroom walls. I suppose the usenet is like one big public wall!



snip further weird blather filled with identity consusion

(You snipped and I unsnipped) I am not sure what "identity consusion"
is so I find it difficult to know how to respond other than as I
responded above. I suspect that Kman and Keenan are familiar with each
other, and seem to have gone to the same school of usenet posting,
though he does seem to be a little faster on the draw! He probably
does not have to worry so much about who he is, no identity confusion
there, he knows who he is! If I caused you any identity confusion, I
would just encourage you to think more about it!

Anyway to the subject of this post, I will endorse what your friend
Keenan says about his rudder time. At least as far as it appears from
his website stories about paddling trips. All of the pictures show, to
the best I can determine, that the rudders are there, but up. If you
paddle together very much, I assume you probably follow suite.

In as much as the use of a rudder on a kayak, was the main theme of
this thread, I thought it was appropriate to resussitate the thread,
off the OT personal ID confusion issues! I do not mean to ignore your
issues, but to not bore others who may be reading this thread with an
interest in the use of rudders on a kayak! Someone ask, about your
basis of experience to comment regarding the use of a rudder on a
kayak. Keenan's pictures indicate that though he has a rudder on his
kayak, he does not deploy it. I do not know whether that is standard
practice in the OTT region, or whether that is just his personal
preference, which may or may not have anything to do with your
preference of not using one either as you stated. Just a possible
conclusion as stated from the following observations, about OTT
posters!

Of course you would not be able to use a rudder in some of the
shallower streams, or risk having it torn off. Especially in the
swifts and hell holes that you explored, and swam in! That was what a
class III or IV?

You would not want to do a wet exit and then have to self-rescue with
a rudder in the way, as any of the WW specialist here would attest to.
None of their play boats have rudders that I know of just for that
reason. Using a seakayak in the narrows must be tricky to steer in
fast water though, since I am sure they do not turn on a dime, as they
say! Though you apparently have mastered the art having survived to
write numerous stories.

I also realize that some of the pictures are in big flat water, but
again do not show a deployed rudder, so you must be accomplishing your
turns with something other than a rudder! Unless of course you use
them only during storms and rough weather when you are too busy for
picture taking. Most all the pictures were taken on very placid water,
beautiful, smooth, where you would not need a rudder to control a
barge, and certainly not any tsunami conditions, or breaking surf, or
storm surge. Do they have tsunami in OTT?

As for myself, having started kayaking in a WW kayak on flat water,
and found how frustrating that it is to go anywhere, though I did get
a lot of bracing practice, I will continue to use my rudder on my
bagboats. My Folbot and Klepper, are maybe more like the barge I
mentioned. I figure I can always lean and brace to accomplish a turn,
a rudder just makes it easier. Then it also allows me to hoist a sail,
and sail along, taking a few paddle strokes now and then! A nice quiet
form of motor sailing.

Concerning Auto trans, I often drive 100 miles per day in traffic, and
yeah it may use more gas, but then so does the AC unit, that I use to
keep cool in rush hour parking lots! I don't hear any of the macho
types saying they don't use their AC in summer! Or for that matter up
in the cold north country, where you come from, saying they just turn
off the auto heater, so as to toughen up against the cold!

Actually I did see one picture where the rudder was deployed, but that
was several years ago when the journal indicated you all had first
started kayaking. I won't count that against you though, since I can't
see that it is you in the bright yellow kayak. And besides since you
had just started, you were probably under the impression as a newbie,
that if you had a rudder, you were intended to use it. Especially
since you had probably not mastered all the paddle and bracing stokes
yet!

Now if I could just figure out how to put a motor on my kayak! Oh
yeah, I did try one this last summer, but that is another story!


What does this have to do with standard vs auto transmission?

Well like I said, Keenan is a little faster, and would be able to
figure it out, so why don't you ask him!

snip further weird blather filled with identity confusion

RkyMtnHootOwl 0vQ

I know who I am, no ID confusion here! If you are confused about who
you are, think about it!

again, RkyMtnHootOwl OvO

in article , RkyMtnHootOwl at
wrote on 12/3/05 6:10 AM:

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 02:05:30 -0500, KMAN wrote:

in article , RkyMtnHootOwl at
wrote on 12/2/05 3:25 AM:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:21:52 -0500, KMAN wrote:

snip

snip

Hi Kman, I was glad to see your post, and had missed your presence in
these parts recently, and I hoped that we had not hurt your feelings,
and that you were still well.

Who are you, and who is the "we" that would have hurt my feelings? (FYI, I
don't ascribe to the notion that my feelings are subject to injury. My
feelings are derived as a result of my own thinking).

That would certainly explain the apparent lack of any injuries! As to
the "we", that would be those of us who continue to post, or lurk in
this NG, who miss your posting when you are off Kamanalizing
elsewhere! As to the "you", you may have to do some reserch on that
one yourself!

No thanks, I'm not a cyberstalking freak!

I figure you have maybe been busy with
your friend Keenan selling the tickets to some shindig up there in
OTT, that is coming up soon. Sounds like a lot of fun! Is it a New
Years celebration, or just a fund raiser for his charity work? Seems
he has done this program in previous years. Is this your first year?


Holy christ, what sort of cyberstalker are you? I had no idea what you were
talking about and then realized that there is probably somewhere on the net
a single post where I mentioned what I was planning to do on NYE, and from
somewhere else you've found the first name of the guy who sells the tickets.
Why do you know this? You are scary! Not in the sense that I fear you, but
in the sense that you are a kook!

No CS here, just checking out Google pushed links on the R.B.P.
archive! I like to check out and lurk, where there is active posting
going on, and came across a hot bed of activity in the OTT area. Seems
one of the most active posters who lets it all hang out in the public
slipstream is one - Kman! Turns out a friend of mine from years past
is from that area, and I like to read his web posted paddling stories,
and there seems to be a knowledgeable relationship between Kman and
Keenan, who both also post on various OTT NG's.

I haven't seen any Keenan posts on the ott. ng's. But I guess you would
know, since knowing such things seems to be a twisted hobby of yours.

One of these years, I may even try to make it up to the Folbot Rideau
Canal Flotilla that is held every year up there. Seems that a whole
bunch of Folboters get together up there and explore the beautiful
waterway. I have really appreciated Keenan's pictures, and envy him
his access to so much beautiful country and waterways. I have spent
some lurking time reading his stories.

Huhn. Well, that sounds harmless enough.

From previous contact, I knew that he sold ticket to some shindig that
is supposedly the place to be on a particular night in OTT! I may have
read that "single post" by you saying you were involved it this
shindig, but now I could hardly tell you with out doing some serious
googling, and that is time I don't need to spend.

Yes, clearly you are needed elsewhere.

I suppose if there
is anything to be learned in all this, is that a person needs to be
careful what they post out here in the "Wild, Wild West" of the
Usenet, since you never know who may read what you put down in
cybercement for anyone to read, forever! Even one single post!

Uh. I don't really think it's a problem that I replied to someone asking
about people's plans for NYE. Is it disturbing that a freak like yourself
goes around storing such information? Sure. Does that call for me to be more
careful with my posts? I don't think so.

Nothing particularly kookie about it. My Grand-MaMa said

"Fools names, and Fools Faces,
always end up in public places!"

Sounds like your grand-mama was as big a freak as you!

I think she was in particular refering to the writing on public
bathroom walls. I suppose the usenet is like one big public wall!

Wow, that's deep. You should write a book. Or perhaps become the high tech
policy advisor to George Bush Jr.

snip further weird blather filled with identity consusion

(You snipped and I unsnipped) I am not sure what "identity consusion"
is so I find it difficult to know how to respond other than as I
responded above. I suspect that Kman and Keenan are familiar with each
other, and seem to have gone to the same school of usenet posting,
though he does seem to be a little faster on the draw! He probably
does not have to worry so much about who he is, no identity confusion
there, he knows who he is! If I caused you any identity confusion, I
would just encourage you to think more about it!

Did you smoke a full pipe of crack just prior to typing the paragraph above?

Anyway to the subject of this post, I will endorse what your friend
Keenan says about his rudder time. At least as far as it appears from
his website stories about paddling trips. All of the pictures show, to
the best I can determine, that the rudders are there, but up. If you
paddle together very much, I assume you probably follow suite.

In as much as the use of a rudder on a kayak, was the main theme of
this thread, I thought it was appropriate to resussitate the thread,
off the OT personal ID confusion issues! I do not mean to ignore your
issues, but to not bore others who may be reading this thread with an
interest in the use of rudders on a kayak! Someone ask, about your
basis of experience to comment regarding the use of a rudder on a
kayak. Keenan's pictures indicate that though he has a rudder on his
kayak, he does not deploy it.

Attempted translation, with less blather:

You've looked at pictures of a kayak being paddled without a rudder.

I do not know whether that is standard
practice in the OTT region, or whether that is just his personal
preference, which may or may not have anything to do with your
preference of not using one either as you stated. Just a possible
conclusion as stated from the following observations, about OTT
posters!

A great many kayaks are sold with a rudder attached. I have no idea what you
are trying to say here.

Of course you would not be able to use a rudder in some of the
shallower streams, or risk having it torn off. Especially in the
swifts and hell holes that you explored, and swam in! That was what a
class III or IV?

You would not want to do a wet exit and then have to self-rescue with
a rudder in the way, as any of the WW specialist here would attest to.
None of their play boats have rudders that I know of just for that
reason. Using a seakayak in the narrows must be tricky to steer in
fast water though, since I am sure they do not turn on a dime, as they
say! Though you apparently have mastered the art having survived to
write numerous stories.

I also realize that some of the pictures are in big flat water, but
again do not show a deployed rudder, so you must be accomplishing your
turns with something other than a rudder! Unless of course you use
them only during storms and rough weather when you are too busy for
picture taking. Most all the pictures were taken on very placid water,
beautiful, smooth, where you would not need a rudder to control a
barge, and certainly not any tsunami conditions, or breaking surf, or
storm surge. Do they have tsunami in OTT?

As for myself, having started kayaking in a WW kayak on flat water,
and found how frustrating that it is to go anywhere, though I did get
a lot of bracing practice, I will continue to use my rudder on my
bagboats. My Folbot and Klepper, are maybe more like the barge I
mentioned. I figure I can always lean and brace to accomplish a turn,
a rudder just makes it easier. Then it also allows me to hoist a sail,
and sail along, taking a few paddle strokes now and then! A nice quiet
form of motor sailing.

Concerning Auto trans, I often drive 100 miles per day in traffic, and
yeah it may use more gas, but then so does the AC unit, that I use to
keep cool in rush hour parking lots! I don't hear any of the macho
types saying they don't use their AC in summer! Or for that matter up
in the cold north country, where you come from, saying they just turn
off the auto heater, so as to toughen up against the cold!

Actually I did see one picture where the rudder was deployed, but that
was several years ago when the journal indicated you all had first
started kayaking. I won't count that against you though, since I can't
see that it is you in the bright yellow kayak. And besides since you
had just started, you were probably under the impression as a newbie,
that if you had a rudder, you were intended to use it. Especially
since you had probably not mastered all the paddle and bracing stokes
yet!

Now if I could just figure out how to put a motor on my kayak! Oh
yeah, I did try one this last summer, but that is another story!


What does this have to do with standard vs auto transmission?

Well like I said, Keenan is a little faster, and would be able to
figure it out, so why don't you ask him!

The question was actually intended more as a statement, i.e. "This has
nothing to do with standard vs auto transmission."

snip further weird blather filled with identity confusion

RkyMtnHootOwl 0vQ

I know who I am, no ID confusion here! If you are confused about who
you are, think about it!

again, RkyMtnHootOwl OvO

Freak!

KMAN wrote:

in article , RkyMtnHootOwl at
wrote on 12/3/05 6:10 AM:

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 02:05:30 -0500, KMAN wrote:

in article , RkyMtnHootOwl at
wrote on 12/2/05 3:25 AM:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:21:52 -0500, KMAN wrote:

snip

snip

snip and in summary


Freak!

Tsh,tsh! Such a thoughful response, for such a deep thinker! Do you
strain hard at the prose? OvO