"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like
Ms.
Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate
with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old,
because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms. Kneisler
should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in.

She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites,
would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein
averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the
last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year








"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Published on Friday, May 28, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
I Have Met the Enemy ...
by Patricia Kneisler

For the first time ever in my life, I had someone threaten to kill me
tonight. He was nearly apoplectic with rage, screaming curses, his
finger
right in my face, his eyes slits of venom. Ex-Navy lifer, I gathered.
Probably in his late 50's. Beer belly. A person so devoid of humanity I
was
stunned.

Good lord, you might ask. What on earth did you, a 52 year old
professional
woman, do to provoke that?

All I did was exercise my duty as a very concerned citizen in what I
thought
was America. I stood silently out on the sidewalk in my California town
with
a sign in each hand. One sign showed a tally of the number of Iraqi
civilian
dead from the Iraq Body Count website . the other the number of
coalition
soldiers dead to date. This is my regular Thursday night gig, something
I've
done every week for 14 months now.

In fact, it was early in the vigil . so early that my retired friend Tom
and
I were the only ones there. That's when the car whipped over to the curb
directly in front of us and Mr. Ex-Navy got out and came around to
confront
us.

"I want to tell you both something," he began belligerently .

To which Tom replied smoothly, "Oh, good . please do."

"I served in the Navy for 27 years. Served in Viet Nam. And it's
f**cking
jerks like you who got a lot of good men KILLED over there!"

And that was just the warm up. He had plenty more where that came from.

Mind you, I'd heard of people like this . fellow Americans who firmly
believe things that reasonable, charitable and empathetic people simply
could not with any sense of decency believe. But in my sheltered
existence,
I had never actually met one face to face, much less been on the
receiving
end of one's wrath.

Well, I thought . I have my talking points ready. I know my arguments.
We'll
just address one issue at a time here.

That's when I heard him thunder that old bromide, "Three thousand people
died in the World Trade Center!!"

Aha . I knew what to say to that. I showed him the sign with the dead
Iraqi
civilians on it . those 11,000 some odd souls who have died because we
invaded their country. "But these people had nothing whatsoever to do
with
the World . "

He made a dismissive gesture and said, "So what."

"Huh? We're talking 11,000 human beings here ."

"You don't get it, do you? You people really don't get it. These -
people -
are - MUSLIMS!"

"So?"

"They are MUSLIMS! They want to kill us all. If they were over here now
they
'd slit your throat and RAPE you!"

"Bull****," I said through tightening lips.

"MUSLIMS are the ENEMY," he spit.

"Bull****," I said again.

It went on. More of the same . a spewing forth of such ignorance and
delusion as I have ever heard. People like Tom and I were ruining this
country with our protest . ruining it. We were worse than filth. We
ought
to
be locked up.

The man took enough of a breath for Tom to get a word in edgewise. "What
about the Constitution?"

"**** the constitution! I WILL NOT LET YOU PEOPLE DESTROY MY COUNTRY! I
WILL
NOT LET YOU!"

"No," I replied. "It is us who will not let YOU destroy our country.
We -
will - not - let - you." Well, OK, I called him an asshole, too. Tom is
my
witness. I thought of those 11,000 innocent dead Iraqis and I called him
an
asshole.

As he finally stormed back around to the driver's side of his car, a
shouting match ensued (not on Tom's part . I'm afraid he was the only
adult
in the group). And then came the parting shot:

"Bush will win in a LANDSLIDE. And if he doesn't, WE know where to find
you.
WE can take care of you. WE can make sure you don't EVER **** with this
country again."

Yes, people say that to one another these days in . where was it that I
thought I lived? America? The land of Thomas Jefferson? Of mom and apple
pie? Of noble, lofty principles? Of goodness, sweetness and light?

That's when I thought of Abu Ghuraib. In fact, the pictures seemed to
flash
like a slide show through my brain, one after another. Grinning, leering
Americans torturing human beings stripped of every shred of their
humanity
in the eyes of their torturers.

And I understood. Mr. Ex-Navy would have fit right in.

I met the dark underbelly of America tonight. I really did meet the
enemy.
And he really is



--

"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like
Ms.
Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate
with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old,
because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms.
Kneisler
should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in.

She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she
cites,
would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein
averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count)

So, that makes it OK to kill. I understand.


In reality, the US, in the
last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year

Where DO you girls come up with that 35,000 number? It's been bantied around
here by other Borg in the past.

P.Fritz wrote:
She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites,
would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein
averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the
last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year

If that were a good moral justification for invading Iraq, then why did
Bush wait 3 years? Why did he not 1- announce as part of his 2000
campaign that he intended to invade Iraq and unseat Saddam Hussein and
2- why did he wait until after Sept 11th?

You're admitting, by this pseudo logic, that the U.S. is complicit in
all Iraqi deaths due to Baathist goon squads. Now let's see you justify
killings & torture by American goon squads.

DSK

"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like
Ms.
Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate
with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old,
because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms.
Kneisler
should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in.

She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she
cites,
would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein
averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the
last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year

much snipage

Hmmm,

I think your numbers may not tell the whole story.

How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind
after they thought we would support them in thier uprising?

Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo?

Mark Browne

Mark Browne wrote:
"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like

Ms.

Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate
with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old,
because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms.

Kneisler

should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in.

She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she

cites,

would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein
averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the
last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year


much snipage

Hmmm,

I think your numbers may not tell the whole story.

How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind
after they thought we would support them in thier uprising?

Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo?

Mark Browne



Shhhh...don't bring up stuff like that...it confuses them.

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:P5evc.6277$sI.466@attbi_s52...

"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people
like
Ms.
Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to
debate
with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year
old,
because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms.
Kneisler
should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in.

She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she
cites,
would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that
Hussein
averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in
the
last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year

much snipage

Hmmm,

I think your numbers may not tell the whole story.

Just like the liebral's sign didn't


How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind
after they thought we would support them in thier uprising?

One reason the numbers vary from 88 to 158......depends on who is doing
the counting and who is counted .


Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal
embargo?

None.


Mark Browne

How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind
after they thought we would support them in thier uprising?

Quite a bit.

Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo?

Oh, oh. Not so fast. Saddam managed to live in a state of unfettered opulence
throughout the embargo. Remember when one of his sons loaded a 40' trailer with
$US and lit out for Iran as the invasion closed in on Baghdad? Even if the
average
denomination was a $20, a trailer-full has got to be tens of millions. That
money could have purchased a 20 pound bag of rice for every family in Iraq,
every month, for one hell of a long time. But, it didn't.

Saddam was a *******. Any ruler who will live in luxury out of the national
purse (rather than personal wealth) while kids are commonly dying from
starvation is a *******. No serious person will lament that he has been
removed- the legitimately debatable point is whether the end justified the
means.

Whether the embargo was right, or not, is less important than the established
fact Hussein did far less than he could or should have done to ease the
suffering of his people. A significant portion of the embargo deaths *are* his
fault.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind
after they thought we would support them in thier uprising?

Quite a bit.

Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal
embargo?

Oh, oh. Not so fast. Saddam managed to live in a state of unfettered
opulence
throughout the embargo. Remember when one of his sons loaded a 40' trailer
with
$US and lit out for Iran as the invasion closed in on Baghdad? Even if the
average
denomination was a $20, a trailer-full has got to be tens of millions.
That
money could have purchased a 20 pound bag of rice for every family in
Iraq,
every month, for one hell of a long time. But, it didn't.

Saddam was a *******. Any ruler who will live in luxury out of the
national
purse (rather than personal wealth) while kids are commonly dying from
starvation is a *******. No serious person will lament that he has been
removed- the legitimately debatable point is whether the end justified the
means.

Whether the embargo was right, or not, is less important than the
established
fact Hussein did far less than he could or should have done to ease the
suffering of his people. A significant portion of the embargo deaths *are*
his
fault.


This is one of the rare cases where somebody said something that changed my
mind on a newsgroup.

Thanks.

Mark Browne

The amount was in excess of $900,000,000 Just shy of a billion.

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:8zwvc.33817$pt3.5356@attbi_s03...

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the
wind
after they thought we would support them in thier uprising?

Quite a bit.

Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal
embargo?

Oh, oh. Not so fast. Saddam managed to live in a state of unfettered
opulence
throughout the embargo. Remember when one of his sons loaded a 40'
trailer
with
$US and lit out for Iran as the invasion closed in on Baghdad? Even if
the
average
denomination was a $20, a trailer-full has got to be tens of millions.
That
money could have purchased a 20 pound bag of rice for every family in
Iraq,
every month, for one hell of a long time. But, it didn't.

Saddam was a *******. Any ruler who will live in luxury out of the
national
purse (rather than personal wealth) while kids are commonly dying from
starvation is a *******. No serious person will lament that he has been
removed- the legitimately debatable point is whether the end justified
the
means.

Whether the embargo was right, or not, is less important than the
established
fact Hussein did far less than he could or should have done to ease the
suffering of his people. A significant portion of the embargo deaths
*are*
his
fault.


This is one of the rare cases where somebody said something that changed
my
mind on a newsgroup.

Thanks.

Mark Browne

"Mark Browne" wrote in message news:P5evc.6277$sI.466@attbi_s52...
"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like
Ms.
Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate
with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old,
because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms.
Kneisler
should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in.

She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she
cites,
would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein
averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the
last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year

much snipage

Hmmm,

I think your numbers may not tell the whole story.

How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind
after they thought we would support them in thier uprising?

We should have supported them. However I would love for you to
explain the logic used to transfer blame from Saddam to the U.S. for
the thing he did.

Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo?

Who made the emabargo so brutal? Not the U.S. There was more than
enough money going into Iraq to keep everyone sustained. That money
was going through a UNITED NATIONS operated program. Saddam lived
large off that money - and it appears that official from other
countries also engaged in personally profiting from that program.