"Argyle" argyle@nospam wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:58:46 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:27:11 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:

Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

Hate to tell you this, but Moslems (or Muslims - take your pick) along
with the Hindus, invented the concept of zero. There is some dispute
about who invented it first, but it would appear that it may have been
a case of simultaneous invention, but some evidence indicates that the
Hindus came to it much later than the Pan-Arabian ethnic grouping.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 is called the Arab/Hindu (or Hindu/Arabic - all
depends on who you talk to) number system and without it, you wouldn't
have any of the above.

Curiously enough, it first appeared in the 1,000 BC in Babylon or as
we know it Iraq,by Babylonian mathematicians and/or astronomers. The
first "zero" was actually a blank so it would look something like 1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1_ 11 12, etc. It went from a blank to " at some point
(it's been a while - I'm doing this from memory). Eventually, sometime
around the 1st Century BC, a proper zero was developed, but went
through several iterations until it settled down to what we now know.

Just one small correction. The Islam religion started with Mohammad in the
7th century. Thus the above assertions do not match the time line.


Duely noted, thanks, I did not know that.


Regards,
Roadburner
Regards,
Argyle

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.




Later,

Tom

Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:33:53 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.

Zero? Couple of posts up? :)

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:58:46 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

So thats IT? - their contribution to the above was a "zero" ?
(how ironic). But joking aside, this is "good". Is there more?
I mean, what you spelled out here is important (and thats good),
but lets build on that - lets see why there hasn't been more.

How do you define "more"?

Simple: "something"..... Point being, the "drive",
or "natural will" to do good, contribure to the
advancements to society and the like.... You
just don't *see* that (if it exists). Even in "social"
programs, you just don't see it. Take the Pali's...
What are the other Muslim/Arab lands doing to
help the plight of the Pali's? What are they doing
to provide food/medicine/housing/money for the
Pali's? Do you happen to *know* what the
tonnage and $$ amount of rice/food that the United
States donates to poor countries? How about the
major Arab nations - do you know the amount
that they donate?



If I look around at the array of
individuals who provide me and my family with health care, three of
the doctors, including my internist, are Muslim and are very good at
what they do. I work with a Iranian on occasion who has made some
very interesting and valuable contributions to quantum physics -
notably in the area of quantum foam.

Look, yer missing the point my friend!..... All of
these Muslims that you speak of are HERE in the
US of A - the question was what the "Arab/" muslims
are doing? - in THEIR countries? You answer
actually speaks more to my point anyways... This,
and Western cultures "promote" good things like this.



It's like asking what Americans have contributed to the world

Shall I state for you the tonnage and dollar amount
of rice, and food we donate? How about manufacturing?
Software? textiles? crops? Chemicals ? Boeing ?
Microsoft?, Dow Corning, etc. etc.

- space
science? Mostly Jewish physicists and conscripted ex-Nazi German
rocketeers. Medicine, certainly, but so have individuals who were
French, German, Japanese and the first heart transplant was done by a
South African.

More to my point: where are/were the Arabs/Muslims
with all of this? Why no Arabs in space?, Chemists?
You talk about Jewish contributions, and ex-Nazi's,
and the Germans, the French, the Japaneese, and
even South African, and thats all rehashing my point:
every other culture is into doing *some* form of
advancements, and contributions to humanity, and
mankind, but *why* are we struggling tring to fill
in the score cards of the Arabs/Muslims? WTF?
Has the media been keeping this from us?



You can't define a society by what individuals accomplish as
individuals.

No, but you CAN (and we DO) define a "society"
by what they DON'T do as compared to how other
similar societies behaved, and developed over the years.




At some point we need to look at this, and understand why
they fell out of the game so long ago, and see what it will
take to get them back in to the game (if they want to).

The Arabs have always been assimilators (you will be assimilated -
snerk) and as their society adapted to the influences of other
cultures and systems, advances were made everywhere from China to
Britain. They were the main trading group of merchants and
entrepreneurs throughout the Middle East and beyond and spread these
different ideas around igniting the scientific/industrial and other
revolutions.

Ok, great - we got something here (finally).
So lets expand on this. So these "assimilators",
or trade of "assimilation" as you suggest. So
say this trade as value. So what heppend to it?
That can be their contribution. So why are they
not spreading this around? So say the newfangled
thing is "food/donations" (in the form of Oil for Food,
and the dollar amount that we give to Egypt), right?
So why haven't they "assimilated" some of this smack
to their own? The Palistenians? Other poor Arabs?
And if what you say were true, and held much merit,
what is the natural "growth" of this? - how do they
prevent themselves from stagnating with this stuff?



if they don't, we need to find out why, and what to do with
a self-destructive culture that doesn't (that happens to want
to take out the rest of the world). We've seen other despondent
and self-destructive cultures before, but one that wants to also
take out the other side is something we're not used to.
(Hitler didn't want to take "out" the world, he just wanted
to control it - very different).

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that view, but to my
mind, societies evolve, devolve and evolve once more. Certainly, the
current situation isn't the best, but this is basically a tribal
conflict similar to any number of ethnic/tribal conflicts that
continue to infest world order and peace.

Not true. Tribal conflict with the Iran/Iraq thing
of the 80's, Tribal with the 6-day war of Isreal,
tribal conflict with the first gulf war, yeah, maybe.
But!, how is this "Tribal conflict" when it involves
the West, and the USA? And I think this notion
is a deversion anyway.



I'm not at all sure there is an answer.

The answer is to keep doing what we
are doing. We give ENDLESS tolerance
to dictators, and hostle terror states, but
when they slip up, or the time becomes
right, we go in and enforce what they say
they were going to do, and we change things
for them. They will eventually get the message.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.

Thats good. Thanks. See? - yer doing your part
in breaking down these stigma's flating around.





Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?

Who, when, and what exactally?


Contributed to Environmental conservation? Does a few thousand years of
working with nature to renew and cultivate the fields in the Nile Delta
count?

What year(s) ?


Contributed to Computer Science? Would the invention of our numbering
system, as well as algebra and (that's an Arab word,al-gebra) other
advanced math concepts count?

No, since algebra was around before the word "computer"
ever hit the airwaves. Abacus, yes, that was good. Look,
I admidt, I should have "qualified" my comments/questions
to an actual "time frame" - as in THIS centry. You know,
in the era that most know as "industrialization", ergo, AFTER
the discovery of middle Eastern oil. ...Seems that once oil
was discovered, the Arabs shut down all of their human
development, and shut out the rest of the world.


Contributed to religious tolerance? Remember, the terrorists represent
mainstream Islam only as much as the KKK represents mainstream
Christianity.

KKK was a rogue SMALL faction of white Amaricans,
and they wern't out to eliminate entire countries, and/or
religions. Nor was it a "State Sponsored" thing and taught
in schools. Militant Islam is a State sponsored thing.

Both cite holy writ as justification for attacking and
murdering folks who don't conform to the small group supposedly
anointed by their screwed up version of God.

Yer bing an appologist here again - might want to revisit that.



Mainstream Muslims regard Jews and Christians as "people of the Book,"
and believe that a devout Jew or a devout Christian can be admitted to
whatever sort of Paradisic Disneyland the Muslims imagine they will
inhabit after death. Muslims are taught, and the Quran demands, that
Jesus, Moses, and Abraham be honored and respected. The Quran calls
Jesus an anointed messenger from God. Sounds like a lot more "religious
tolerance" than you'll hear extended to Islam by many right wing
Americans these days.

In mainstream Islam, the term "infidel" is more exactly applied to
people who are not monotheists. Jews and Christians are only called
"infidels" by the most radical elements of Islam.

Google up "Jesus in the Quran". You might find it surprising.

Why were the Crusaders of the 10th and 11th Centuries called
"infidels"? Because many of them were. The Pope would call for a
crusade, and most of the land owners and rulers needed to at least give
lip service to Christianity to remain in power, but among the ranks of
footmen and other "grunts" there were a lot of folks still openly
following the Old Religion.

Yer being an appologist here again....
To prevent the discussion from getting
too muddled, and off the central point,
say you were right - thats even more to
my point! - We have EVOLVED to see
the light, why have the Arabs NOT?
Further, why do they refuse? Expecialy
when its now 2-oh-oh-FIVE for Gawd
sakes - its not like we're still in the dark ages.





Yes, there are exhortations to violence in the Quran.

Ah, so you see the problem, good, thats a start...


Just as there are
exhortations to violence, murder, and even genocide in the Holy Bible.

Oh yeah, here we go.. Of course.... more excuses.
This is all "appologistism" if I ever seen it.


(Check out the book of Joshua. If you say, "you have to take that it
context", I would ask "why we must take Joshua in context but then
insist on reading the Quran out of context?")

Yeah, yeah, so where are all the Christian homiside bombers?




Any white American can vacation in a Muslim country,

Can I go to Mecca, and Madeena? URL please ?



and many routinely
do. It's best not to act the fool while there,

Why not? Tollerant place "allow" this you know.


of course, and to
respect the tenents of the host culture just as one would when visiting
anywhere else. If one walks down the street drinking from an open beer
bottle, gooses the women walking by, and has a smut magazine rolled up
under one's arm there's going to be some serious trouble-

See, thats ****ed, That is why them places need Westernized.


but would
that be the fault of the Muslim society or the ignorance and arrogance
of the American visitor?

Thats the fault of THAT society - we tollerate THEIR
manorisms, and behaviours HERE, so wtf? We allow
them to prey 5 times a day, we allow them to bring
their prayer rugs to work (even encourage it), we allow
them to build mosques. and the like, so ca-mon dude,
be real here, will ya ?



"nuff said"? :-)

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:

components. M.I. (Militant Islam) on the other
hand, has no such "strategy", as it is all driven
by a physiological/emotional thing, and not logic.




Ahh, I have it now. Christianity as practiced by conservative white
males in the United States is driven by logic, and not the emotional.

No, no, you are drawing some short-circuited conclusion.
First off, (and you NEED to get this straight, otherwise
we don't even have a debate) is that we're NOT talking
about Conservative vs. Liberal - don't do this. That tends
to be a Liberal trait: make it a Conservative vs. Liberal
fight no matter WHAT the conversation is about. You
need to learn to turn "off" your Anti American switch
when engaged in an "INTERnational" type conversations.
(We are talking about Muslims - that is neither a Liberal
thing, nor a white Conservative thing) - had this been
a thread about "domestic" subject, yeah, all fair game.
BUT, we happen to be discussing the Muslim/West
thing, and discussing ways to make it better by trying
to properly identify the problem, and its reasons, and
ways to make that better. (You game for such
NON 'Liberal vs. Conservative' conversation ?)

Now, on point... Our rationale for the Iraq
war(s) were logic based. The UN resolution
687 that enabled the seise-fire of the first Gulf
war was never satisified - that is why Saddam
is in the can. It was technically not about finding
WMD's, it was about *THEM* accounting for
all of the WMD's that *they* themselves documented
as having. They accounted for some, yeah, but not
for the ballance, so we went in and assumed that
they were still there. Doesn't matter if they "are",
"were", or in Tim Buck Too - they *still* had to
account for them, or face the full force of the USA
(for which they did - 'ya see that "Shock-n-awe"?)

We are not fighting wars based on Religion, however
M.I. does. The predominant religions here in the US
are largly emotions based, (coupled with a fair amount
of history, accounts, and possibly facts, and experiences).
yeah, and sometimes religions come about to agument
ones logic mechanisms, but none of this is supportive
of the discussion as hand, is it?

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.


In "Harryland" harry's word is gospel...not to be questioned, in
"Harryland", harry owns a 36 ft lobsta boat, has a degree from yale, and
lives with is dr. dr. wife.

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.


In "Harryland" harry's word is gospel...not to be questioned, in
"Harryland", harry owns a 36 ft lobsta boat, has a degree from yale, and
lives with is dr. dr. wife.

Damn.... "who knew" ? Ok, I won't question him.
Does tring to "engage" him in stimulating debate count
as "questioning him" I wonder?

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:28 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


No, since algebra was around before the word "computer" ever hit the
airwaves. Abacus, yes, that was good. Look, I admidt, I should have
"qualified" my comments/questions to an actual "time frame" - as in THIS
centry. You know, in the era that most know as "industrialization", ergo,
AFTER the discovery of middle Eastern oil. ...Seems that once oil was
discovered, the Arabs shut down all of their human development, and shut
out the rest of the world.

Not really a fair comparison, is it? For most of this century, the Arab
world was being pillaged by those industrialized countries. For most of
this century, the Arab world were colonies of England and France or
part of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps, a fairer question would be, what did
those industrial powers bring to the Arab world? I mean, besides death,
destruction, and absurd lines on a map.

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam
wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise
of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.


In "Harryland" harry's word is gospel...not to be questioned, in
"Harryland", harry owns a 36 ft lobsta boat, has a degree from yale,
and
lives with is dr. dr. wife.

Damn.... "who knew" ? Ok, I won't question him.
Does tring to "engage" him in stimulating debate count
as "questioning him" I wonder?

Trying to engage harry in stimulating debate is like ****ing into the wind
and trying not get wet.

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:28 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


Not really a fair comparison, is it? For most of this century, the Arab
world was being pillaged by those industrialized countries.

Woe, woe, woe..... See? its *THIS* very (*VERY*) misguided
emotion-ridden mindsets that is at the *heart* of the entire issue.
Ain't nobody "pillaged" **** here buster! - No one came in by
force to "pillage" no oil from the Arabs. That an insult. What,
the South America countries were "pillaged" too? Man....
The Arab lands received a very lucrative profits from that oil.



For most of
this century, the Arab world were colonies of England and France or
part of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps, a fairer question would be, what did
those industrial powers bring to the Arab world?

Wealth!!!! and LOTS of it too!. Take off them
rose-colored glasses - there is no shortage of flow
of money. And SEE? - this speaks DIRECTLY to
my point - they got SO much oil wealth for SO
little effort for SO long, that the incentives to do
anything else were vitually non existant.


I mean, besides death,
destruction, and absurd lines on a map.

"Absurd" lines on a map? Why are they
so "absurd"? What - should have just
been a free-for-all land grab ? So why is
it the fault of England, France, or Ottoman
empire for thease lines? - these Arab areas
could have done the same, they were not
handicaped in any way.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:57:26 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:28 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


Not really a fair comparison, is it? For most of this century, the Arab
world was being pillaged by those industrialized countries.

Woe, woe, woe..... See? its *THIS* very (*VERY*) misguided emotion-ridden
mindsets that is at the *heart* of the entire issue. Ain't nobody
"pillaged" **** here buster! - No one came in by force to "pillage" no oil
from the Arabs. That an insult. What, the South America countries were
"pillaged" too? Man.... The Arab lands received a very lucrative profits
from that oil.


No one came in by force? You have to be kidding, right? Read a little
history of the area. It's been one of conquest since the Crusades. Does
the Sykes-Picot Agreement ring any bells?



For most of
this century, the Arab world were colonies of England and France or part
of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps, a fairer question would be, what did
those industrial powers bring to the Arab world?

Wealth!!!! and LOTS of it too!. Take off them rose-colored glasses -
there is no shortage of flow of money. And SEE? - this speaks DIRECTLY to
my point - they got SO much oil wealth for SO little effort for SO long,
that the incentives to do anything else were vitually non existant.


I mean, besides death,
destruction, and absurd lines on a map.

"Absurd" lines on a map? Why are they so "absurd"? What - should have
just been a free-for-all land grab ? So why is it the fault of England,
France, or Ottoman empire for thease lines? - these Arab areas could have
done the same, they were not handicaped in any way.

They are absurd, because they are arbitrary and do not represent the facts
on the ground. They were imposed on the area by foreign powers. Ever
wonder why most of the world's "hotspots" were one time colonies? Nope, I
didn't think so.

And, yes, these Arab states were handicapped. Democracy in the area?
There was, until . . . do a search on "Mossadegh CIA". Saddam Hussein . .
.. search on "Iraq Kassim CIA". We are reaping what we have sowed.

Wiz,
As soon as you engage Harry in debate, you became part of the Right Wing
Borg Machine. Right Wingers are useless. If a bus was going to hit you,
Harry would not waste the time to shove you out of the way. You are slime.
You are a scumbag. I am sure there are other nasty names he could call you,
but he will do that in his next post.

You will notice, whatever new insult Harry uses, his little minion, atl_man
will soon repeat.


"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise
of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.


In "Harryland" harry's word is gospel...not to be questioned, in
"Harryland", harry owns a 36 ft lobsta boat, has a degree from yale, and
lives with is dr. dr. wife.

Damn.... "who knew" ? Ok, I won't question him.
Does tring to "engage" him in stimulating debate count
as "questioning him" I wonder?

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


What have you, as a "white American," contributed to advancing the areas
you mentioned?

*Much*! .... (you wanna compare Resumes ?)
But your comment suggest a myopic mentality.
Active in the above areas, why is it that I don't
see Arab/muslims active in trade journals etc in
the context of the above?


Ahhh. You think all Muslims have names that fit your stereotypes.

Is the A.M.A., IEEE,
etc. etc. all "biased" media sources too??

There are many Muslim scientific contributors in the world, though many
have left their homelands.


Just
why *IS* it that companies ike Haliburton in an
Arab land is an issue in the FIRST place?

Because that is where they can get the best non-bid contracts.


Why
IS it that (of all places) "France" has to come in
and build nulcear reactors in Iraq/Iran? What of
more basic things like manufacturing, and construction?
Why IS it that the "Germans" have to come in an
build concreate bunkers for Saddam Hussien ?
...I thought "Bin Ladan" was the construction king?
If you haven't noticed, and thus was the "message"
here, the Arabs (for what*ever* reason), have
fallen out humam advancement years ago, and
it has led to this mis-placed Ara fustration that
the world has come to know as "militant islam".

Well, I think you're wrong. These days, there are plenty of Muslims even
in their homelands making interesting scientific progress.



And the Arab leader wanna-b's try to explain
this by a voo-doo religion as the reason/cause.


A voo-doo religion? You're quite the racist, eh.


Poorly worded but full of truths. The culture that shaped Islam is a
culture of the tribe. It's top down and the common man has no power, there
can be no middle class. It discourages individual thought, gives all power
to the religious leaders, what we Christians had during the dark ages with
the inquisition. Arab countries in many ways are still in the 15th century
"dark ages".

The answer to the above questions is simply; there is no middle class.

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:27:11 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:

Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

Hate to tell you this, but Moslems (or Muslims - take your pick) along
with the Hindus, invented the concept of zero. There is some dispute
about who invented it first, but it would appear that it may have been
a case of simultaneous invention, but some evidence indicates that the
Hindus came to it much later than the Pan-Arabian ethnic grouping.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 is called the Arab/Hindu (or Hindu/Arabic - all
depends on who you talk to) number system and without it, you wouldn't
have any of the above.

Curiously enough, it first appeared in the 1,000 BC in Babylon or as
we know it Iraq,by Babylonian mathematicians and/or astronomers. The
first "zero" was actually a blank so it would look something like 1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1_ 11 12, etc. It went from a blank to " at some point
(it's been a while - I'm doing this from memory). Eventually, sometime
around the 1st Century BC, a proper zero was developed, but went
through several iterations until it settled down to what we now know.

Curiously enough, Pan-European mathematicians/astronomers never
developed the concept until Arab traders brought it to Europe
somewhere around 8/900 AD. Europeans were using a positional notation
system, but it was confused and subject to royal fiat.

Why is zero so important? Couple of reasons. In the A/H number
system, zero is a place holder - example: 1101. However, it also is a
number - zero. So,as you can probably infer, 111 is very different
than 1101.

And I'm getting carried away. Let's just say that the positional
place-value system couldn't work without zero, that it was pretty much
invented by Moslems (or Muslims) concurrently with some other ethnic
groups and that, in fact, it took Arab traders to bring sense and
commerce to the Pan-European mercantile system leading, of course, to
the list you published above.


It was invented by Arabs who were NOT Muslims, the Muslim religion was not
invented yet! The argument is not that Arabs are inferior but that the
religion suppresses individuals so that a middle class can't develop. No
middle class and the development of an infrastructure never occurs.

Jeff Rigby wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.

What have you, as a "white American," contributed to advancing the areas
you mentioned?
*Much*! .... (you wanna compare Resumes ?)
But your comment suggest a myopic mentality.
Active in the above areas, why is it that I don't
see Arab/muslims active in trade journals etc in
the context of the above?

Ahhh. You think all Muslims have names that fit your stereotypes.

Is the A.M.A., IEEE,
etc. etc. all "biased" media sources too??
There are many Muslim scientific contributors in the world, though many
have left their homelands.


Just
why *IS* it that companies ike Haliburton in an
Arab land is an issue in the FIRST place?
Because that is where they can get the best non-bid contracts.


Why
IS it that (of all places) "France" has to come in
and build nulcear reactors in Iraq/Iran? What of
more basic things like manufacturing, and construction?
Why IS it that the "Germans" have to come in an
build concreate bunkers for Saddam Hussien ?
...I thought "Bin Ladan" was the construction king?
If you haven't noticed, and thus was the "message"
here, the Arabs (for what*ever* reason), have
fallen out humam advancement years ago, and
it has led to this mis-placed Ara fustration that
the world has come to know as "militant islam".
Well, I think you're wrong. These days, there are plenty of Muslims even
in their homelands making interesting scientific progress.



And the Arab leader wanna-b's try to explain
this by a voo-doo religion as the reason/cause.

A voo-doo religion? You're quite the racist, eh.


Poorly worded but full of truths. The culture that shaped Islam is a
culture of the tribe. It's top down and the common man has no power, there
can be no middle class. It discourages individual thought, gives all power
to the religious leaders, what we Christians had during the dark ages with
the inquisition. Arab countries in many ways are still in the 15th century
"dark ages".

The answer to the above questions is simply; there is no middle class.




Ahh, then Bush must admire that system, because NO MIDDLE CLASS is where
he is taking us.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jeff Rigby wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.

What have you, as a "white American," contributed to advancing the
areas
you mentioned?
*Much*! .... (you wanna compare Resumes ?)
But your comment suggest a myopic mentality.
Active in the above areas, why is it that I don't
see Arab/muslims active in trade journals etc in
the context of the above?

Ahhh. You think all Muslims have names that fit your stereotypes.

Is the A.M.A., IEEE,
etc. etc. all "biased" media sources too??
There are many Muslim scientific contributors in the world, though many
have left their homelands.


Just
why *IS* it that companies ike Haliburton in an
Arab land is an issue in the FIRST place?
Because that is where they can get the best non-bid contracts.


Why
IS it that (of all places) "France" has to come in
and build nulcear reactors in Iraq/Iran? What of
more basic things like manufacturing, and construction?
Why IS it that the "Germans" have to come in an
build concreate bunkers for Saddam Hussien ?
...I thought "Bin Ladan" was the construction king?
If you haven't noticed, and thus was the "message"
here, the Arabs (for what*ever* reason), have
fallen out humam advancement years ago, and
it has led to this mis-placed Ara fustration that
the world has come to know as "militant islam".
Well, I think you're wrong. These days, there are plenty of Muslims even
in their homelands making interesting scientific progress.



And the Arab leader wanna-b's try to explain
this by a voo-doo religion as the reason/cause.

A voo-doo religion? You're quite the racist, eh.


Poorly worded but full of truths. The culture that shaped Islam is a
culture of the tribe. It's top down and the common man has no power,
there can be no middle class. It discourages individual thought, gives
all power to the religious leaders, what we Christians had during the
dark ages with the inquisition. Arab countries in many ways are still
in the 15th century "dark ages".

The answer to the above questions is simply; there is no middle class.




Ahh, then Bush must admire that system, because NO MIDDLE CLASS is where
he is taking us.

You want to start a new thread on this Harry? The middle class has been
overtaxed since Johnson. Our standard of living (middle class) has been
reduced to the point that it is now necessary for both parents to work,
primarily because of Taxes. The government takes a larger and larger share
of the pie.

You can not lay this all at the current presidents feet. A small percentage
yes since his priorities changed after 9/11.

Both parties are guilty, Republicans can take a lesser share of the blame
only because they have been in power for a shorter time.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:25:56 -0400, Jeff Rigby wrote:


You want to start a new thread on this Harry? The middle class has been
overtaxed since Johnson. Our standard of living (middle class) has been
reduced to the point that it is now necessary for both parents to work,
primarily because of Taxes. The government takes a larger and larger
share of the pie.

Uh, actually, Federal Taxes have remained remarkably constant, at least as
a percent of GDP, for over 50 years. 18% +- 1

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFa....cfm?Docid=200




You can not lay this all at the current presidents feet. A small
percentage yes since his priorities changed after 9/11.

Both parties are guilty, Republicans can take a lesser share of the blame
only because they have been in power for a shorter time.

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that view, but to my
mind, societies evolve, devolve and evolve once more. Certainly, the
current situation isn't the best, but this is basically a tribal
conflict similar to any number of ethnic/tribal conflicts that
continue to infest world order and peace.

I'm not at all sure there is an answer.


As a start we could be less tribal.

KarenGreer wrote:
Wiz,
As soon as you engage Harry in debate, you became part of the Right Wing
Borg Machine. Right Wingers are useless.

The only truthful statement you've made.

John H. wrote:
On 12 Aug 2005 20:29:27 -0700, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 12 Aug 2005 11:37:29 -0700, wrote:


Jack wrote:
I have never heard anyone say that they feel that all Muslims are
horrible.
The muslims just coincidently are involved in 29 armed conflicts at this
point. I know many muslims, and have no problem with them. Some in
their religion have kidnapped the religion in violence. Muslims need to
do more to stop the extremists in their own religion.


wrote in message
ups.com...
http://tinyurl.com/cxbz9


You are right about militant Muslims. Same goes for Crusading
Christians and Zionist Jews. How the heck three religions that all
worship the same diety (the God of Abraham) can disagree and squabble
over everything so violently and incessantly is a wonder to behold.

Is that the new leftist mantra?

"Muslim terrorism is OK because the Christian Crusaders did it to them."

--
John H.
On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD

No. The new leftist mantra is "certain right wingers aren't perceptive
enough to understand that when somebody agrees with a post that
observes that extremist Muslims have hijacked Islam, and that when the
agreeing party additionally comments that Crusading Christians (that
would be modern as well as historical, btw) and Zionist Jews have also
corrupted the foundations of their own faiths for political purposes,
such a statement in no way defends or excuses the radical Muslims
originally referenced."

I know that's a long mantra, but since you asked....

But I do see where you're coming from: Rather often these days when
somebody in right field gets caught with a hand in the cookie jar the
automatic comment is
"liberals did it first or worse" and many on the right consider that an
excuse for the behavior- no questions asked. With that frame of
reference, I do understand how you might misinterpret an observation
that people from many faiths have corrupted the fundamental message of
their scriptures and prophets
as an "excuse" or defense of the first group that was mentioned.

Thanks for the sermonette.

I don't see many Christians or Jews blowing up buildings, airplanes, trains,
buses, and people on a regular basis. Perhaps that's why I took your comment as
one of those,"...did it first or worse..." types.

Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!

wrote in message
oups.com...

John H. wrote:
On 12 Aug 2005 20:29:27 -0700, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 12 Aug 2005 11:37:29 -0700, wrote:


Jack wrote:
I have never heard anyone say that they feel that all Muslims are
horrible.
The muslims just coincidently are involved in 29 armed conflicts at
this
point. I know many muslims, and have no problem with them.
Some in
their religion have kidnapped the religion in violence. Muslims
need to
do more to stop the extremists in their own religion.


wrote in message
ups.com...
http://tinyurl.com/cxbz9


You are right about militant Muslims. Same goes for Crusading
Christians and Zionist Jews. How the heck three religions that all
worship the same diety (the God of Abraham) can disagree and squabble
over everything so violently and incessantly is a wonder to behold.

Is that the new leftist mantra?

"Muslim terrorism is OK because the Christian Crusaders did it to
them."

--
John H.
On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD

No. The new leftist mantra is "certain right wingers aren't perceptive
enough to understand that when somebody agrees with a post that
observes that extremist Muslims have hijacked Islam, and that when the
agreeing party additionally comments that Crusading Christians (that
would be modern as well as historical, btw) and Zionist Jews have also
corrupted the foundations of their own faiths for political purposes,
such a statement in no way defends or excuses the radical Muslims
originally referenced."

I know that's a long mantra, but since you asked....

But I do see where you're coming from: Rather often these days when
somebody in right field gets caught with a hand in the cookie jar the
automatic comment is
"liberals did it first or worse" and many on the right consider that an
excuse for the behavior- no questions asked. With that frame of
reference, I do understand how you might misinterpret an observation
that people from many faiths have corrupted the fundamental message of
their scriptures and prophets
as an "excuse" or defense of the first group that was mentioned.

Thanks for the sermonette.

I don't see many Christians or Jews blowing up buildings, airplanes,
trains,
buses, and people on a regular basis. Perhaps that's why I took your
comment as
one of those,"...did it first or worse..." types.

Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!


OMG. Unbelievable.

Kevin,
Does the fact that you graduated from an Ivy League College help with your
"2nd degree Black Belt"? I bet you look great driving around town in your
"2nd degree Black Belt" and your "motorcycle".

I would love to see the link with the info concerning your "motorcycle". I
wonder, do you think your "motorcycle" would fit on Harry's "Lobster Boat".


wrote in message
ups.com...

KarenGreer wrote:
Wiz,
As soon as you engage Harry in debate, you became part of the Right Wing
Borg Machine. Right Wingers are useless.

The only truthful statement you've made.

"*JimH*" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...

John H. wrote:
On 12 Aug 2005 20:29:27 -0700, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 12 Aug 2005 11:37:29 -0700, wrote:


Jack wrote:
I have never heard anyone say that they feel that all Muslims are
horrible.
The muslims just coincidently are involved in 29 armed conflicts
at
this
point. I know many muslims, and have no problem with them.
Some in
their religion have kidnapped the religion in violence.
Muslims
need to
do more to stop the extremists in their own religion.


wrote in message
ups.com...
http://tinyurl.com/cxbz9


You are right about militant Muslims. Same goes for Crusading
Christians and Zionist Jews. How the heck three religions that all
worship the same diety (the God of Abraham) can disagree and
squabble
over everything so violently and incessantly is a wonder to behold.

Is that the new leftist mantra?

"Muslim terrorism is OK because the Christian Crusaders did it to
them."

--
John H.
On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD

No. The new leftist mantra is "certain right wingers aren't perceptive
enough to understand that when somebody agrees with a post that
observes that extremist Muslims have hijacked Islam, and that when the
agreeing party additionally comments that Crusading Christians (that
would be modern as well as historical, btw) and Zionist Jews have also
corrupted the foundations of their own faiths for political purposes,
such a statement in no way defends or excuses the radical Muslims
originally referenced."

I know that's a long mantra, but since you asked....

But I do see where you're coming from: Rather often these days when
somebody in right field gets caught with a hand in the cookie jar the
automatic comment is
"liberals did it first or worse" and many on the right consider that
an
excuse for the behavior- no questions asked. With that frame of
reference, I do understand how you might misinterpret an observation
that people from many faiths have corrupted the fundamental message of
their scriptures and prophets
as an "excuse" or defense of the first group that was mentioned.

Thanks for the sermonette.

I don't see many Christians or Jews blowing up buildings, airplanes,
trains,
buses, and people on a regular basis. Perhaps that's why I took your
comment as
one of those,"...did it first or worse..." types.

Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!


OMG. Unbelievable.

No it isn't......it is just further proof why kevin remains the "King"

Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!


OMG. Unbelievable.


P. Fritz wrote:
No it isn't......it is just further proof why kevin remains the "King"


Well let's see... I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but a breif look
at the facts is in order:

Bombs set off in the U.S. by Muslim terrorists: 1
Bombs set off in the U.S. by Christians... difficult to determine,
partly because of identity of "Christians," but it's safe to say that
all abortion clinic bombs have been set off by Christians, and the KKK
is avowedly Christian also.

So, now who is the idiot?

DSK

Better look up the facts again.

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!


OMG. Unbelievable.


P. Fritz wrote:
No it isn't......it is just further proof why kevin remains the "King"


Well let's see... I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but a breif look
at the facts is in order:

Bombs set off in the U.S. by Muslim terrorists: 1
Bombs set off in the U.S. by Christians... difficult to determine, partly
because of identity of "Christians," but it's safe to say that all
abortion clinic bombs have been set off by Christians, and the KKK is
avowedly Christian also.

So, now who is the idiot?

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!


OMG. Unbelievable.


P. Fritz wrote:
No it isn't......it is just further proof why kevin remains the "King"


Well let's see... I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but a breif look
at the facts is in order:

Bombs set off in the U.S. by Muslim terrorists: 1
Bombs set off in the U.S. by Christians... difficult to determine, partly
because of identity of "Christians," but it's safe to say that all
abortion clinic bombs have been set off by Christians, and the KKK is
avowedly Christian also.

So, now who is the idiot?

DSK




I would have to say anyone who believes the *facts* you just posted.

When did the Christians accept the KKK into Christianity?


"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!


OMG. Unbelievable.


P. Fritz wrote:
No it isn't......it is just further proof why kevin remains the "King"


Well let's see... I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but a breif look
at the facts is in order:

Bombs set off in the U.S. by Muslim terrorists: 1
Bombs set off in the U.S. by Christians... difficult to determine, partly
because of identity of "Christians," but it's safe to say that all
abortion clinic bombs have been set off by Christians, and the KKK is
avowedly Christian also.

So, now who is the idiot?

DSK

Ted Hartford wrote:
On 14 Aug 2005, wrote:
Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.


Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?


Contributed to Environmental conservation? Does a few thousand years of
working with nature to renew and cultivate the fields in the Nile Delta
count?

Contributed to Computer Science? Would the invention of our numbering
system, as well as algebra and (that's an Arab word,al-gebra) other
advanced math concepts count?

Contributed to religious tolerance? Remember, the terrorists represent
mainstream Islam only as much as the KKK represents mainstream
Christianity. Both cite holy writ as justification for attacking and
murdering folks who don't conform to the small group supposedly
anointed by their screwed up version of God.

Mainstream Muslims regard Jews and Christians as "people of the Book,"
and believe that a devout Jew or a devout Christian can be admitted to
whatever sort of Paradisic Disneyland the Muslims imagine they will
inhabit after death. Muslims are taught, and the Quran demands, that
Jesus, Moses, and Abraham be honored and respected. The Quran calls
Jesus an anointed messenger from God. Sounds like a lot more "religious
tolerance" than you'll hear extended to Islam by many right wing
Americans these days.

In mainstream Islam, the term "infidel" is more exactly applied to
people who are not monotheists. Jews and Christians are only called
"infidels" by the most radical elements of Islam.

Google up "Jesus in the Quran". You might find it surprising.

Why were the Crusaders of the 10th and 11th Centuries called
"infidels"? Because many of them were. The Pope would call for a
crusade, and most of the land owners and rulers needed to at least give
lip service to Christianity to remain in power, but among the ranks of
footmen and other "grunts" there were a lot of folks still openly
following the Old Religion.

Yes, there are exhortations to violence in the Quran. Just as there are
exhortations to violence, murder, and even genocide in the Holy Bible.
(Check out the book of Joshua. If you say, "you have to take that it
context", I would ask "why we must take Joshua in context but then
insist on reading the Quran out of context?")

Any white American can vacation in a Muslim country, and many routinely
do. It's best not to act the fool while there, of course, and to
respect the tenents of the host culture just as one would when visiting
anywhere else. If one walks down the street drinking from an open beer
bottle, gooses the women walking by, and has a smut magazine rolled up
under one's arm there's going to be some serious trouble- but would
that be the fault of the Muslim society or the ignorance and arrogance
of the American visitor?

"nuff said"? :-)

Are you saying that the advances made in the middle east in terms of math,
science, etc. came after 600AD when Islam was founded? The middle east
didn't convert to Islam overnight so we must be referring to advances made
after 600AD.


The first organized school of medicine, the first attempt to establish
something we would today call a "hospital", and the practice of
examining propsective physicians against a standard of required
knowledge were all concepts that were introduced after 700 AD by
Muslims.

Remember that one of the leading "European" powers (Spain) was about
half Muslim for several hundred years prior to 1492. The northen tribes
in Spain were primarily farmers and shepherds, with the seat of
knowledge and culture
clearly centered in the Muslim south during periods of time when many
early advances were made in Spanish knowledge and culture.

Westerners tend to write off about 700 years of history as the "dark
ages."
We would do well to remember that the Catholic Church did not
suppress/distort/forbid the pursuit of knowledge throughout much of the
civilized world during that period of time. While Europe was pedaling
backwards as rapidly as possible, the Arab world (definitely post
Muhammed)
continued to move forward in research and education.

Here's a paragraph from a website (buzzle.com) that expresses the
concept more succinctly:



From this inherent lack of understanding has been borne a naivete
regarding the importance and influence of Arab and Muslim culture on
the Western world and humankind in general. One of the great oversights
of Western history has been the practice of referring to the period
from roughly 800 AD to 1500 AD as the Dark Ages, when in fact, great
discoveries were being made throughout this period in the Arab world.
During this period, all scientific texts were written in Arabic and it
was the discoveries and of the Arab thinkers of this period that laid
the very foundations from which the Renaissance would emerge. Advances
in mathematics as well as the scientific method of detailed and
systematic observation of natural occurrences would contribute to the
period of intellectual growth that propelled the Western world through
the Industrial Revolution.

Bottom line: Only the propagandizers on the far right and their
kool-aid drinking disciples fall for the line that Muslims haven't
contributed to modern society. That would be like claiming that
Alexander Graham Bell didn't contribute to modern communications or
that Benjamin Franklin contributed nothing to our understanding of the
nature of electricity. It's certainly ironic that people who are
totally uneducated about the historic contributions of Muslims and
Arabs in the fields of math, science, and medicine often try to
characterize Muslims as slightly sub-human because they are
"uneducated" or "haven't contributed". :-)

Mr Wizzard wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.

Thats good. Thanks. See? - yer doing your part
in breaking down these stigma's flating around.





Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?

Who, when, and what exactally?



If you're actually curious, not just trolling for an argument, you
might find some of the following comments helpful:

(from www.enhg.org)


Development of Arab Scientific Interest
The Arabs once ruled an empire that stretched from central Asia to
Spain. This empire reached its zenith between the eighth and
thirteenth centuries AD. Arab scholars of that period knew more about
science and the arts than any other contemporary peoples. They also
translated many classical (Greco-Roman) works of literature and
science.

In fact generally speaking the Muslims were very interested in books
and learning. Rhazes (al Razi-C. ninth century), Vienna (Ibn Sina-c.
tenth century) and Averroes (1126-1198) were among the best known of
Muslim philosophers. They studied the great Greek writers, particularly
Plato and Aristotle. Their goal seems to have been (perhaps rather
surprisingly) to try to find ways to reconcile the ideas of the ancient
Greeks with the teachings of Islam.

Consequently, universities were established in the leading Muslim
cities of Baghdad, Damascus, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Cairo and Cordoba.
Further, the book business flourished. In universities, palaces and the
homes of wealthy merchants could be found large and impressive
libraries. By 1250 AD the most valuable material in Islamic libraries
had become available to European scholars in translation.

The latter point was of great historical importance; eventually much of
the scientific knowledge that the Muslims had gathered from the ancient
classical world and from India was passed to the west, through Spain
and southern Italy, around the time of the Crusades. At that time most
European scholars realized the tremendous scientific and technological
superiority of the Islamic world. And eagerly sought translations of
Muslim works.

Thus these Greek and Arab writings that flowed into Europe, especially
after the beginning of the twelfth century, made up a rich legacy of
scientific and philosophical knowledge. For example, Arabic (Hindi)
numerals and the zero symbol made possible a decimal system of
computation. Also, Euclidean geometry, together with algebra and
trigonometry from the Arab world, greatly increased the scope and
accuracy of mathematics, especially useful for later astronomical
applications during and after the Renaissance.

This transfer of information occurred just in time, for from about 1350
onwards, the Mongols in the east and the Christians in Spain began
systematically to destroy Islamic books in a wholesale manner, as part
of their anti-Muslim wave of feeling at that time

Fortunately, a large number of Islamic books survived in Egypt, Persia
and India, from where most of our knowledge of Muslim civilization has
originated. As a result, every present-day intellectual disciple owes
a debt to the scientific heritage of Islam

Arab Astronomy and Navigation
Astronomy
Muslim scholars made significant contributions towards the development
of many 'modern' sciences, such as physics, chemistry, medicine,
mathematics and astronomy. They were particularly interested in the
latter.

Using the work of the second century Greek astronomer Ptolemy as a
basis, Muslim thinkers greatly increased man's knowledge of
astronomy. Indeed, during the Middle Ages, when European science
underwent a decline, it was the Arabs who preserved the astronomical
heritage.

In some respects this achievement may have been inevitable, since
knowledge of the stars was essential for navigational purposes and for
telling the times of prayers and religious festivals. In other words,
being adventurous traders and mariners and temporally precise
worshippers, the Arabs needed to study astronomy other than for its
purely scientific interest, though undoubtedly such an interest
existed. Consequently they constructed many observatories and
improved certain measuring instruments such as the astrolabe for
determining and recording the positions and movements of celestial
bodies.

Foremost amongst early Arab scientists was al Khawarzimi, who lived in
Baghdad during the ninth century. His work was mainly concerned with
astronomy and mathematics. In fact, his mathematical treatise was the
first to employ what westerners term 'Arabic numerals' (which were
really borrowed from the Indians, as explained earlier. Although it
seems most likely that the Indians invented the zero symbol or cipher
('sifr' means empty in Arabic), al Khwarzimi is attributed with
greatly developing its use n mathematics to simplify multiplication and
division. He also gave a systematic account of algebra and geometry,
for use in solving practical astronomical and navigational problems.

Other notable Arab astronomers were al Battam (d. 929), al Zarquli (d.
1087) and Omar al Khayyami (d. 1123). The latter was a Persian
mathematician who devised a very accurate calendar based on
astronomical observations. It was reputed to have been more accurate
than the Gregorian one we use today, with an error factor of only one
day in 3770, rather than the Gregorian's one in 33303.

Incidentally, the mathematics used for astronomical calculations by the
Arabs involved the use of degrees and minutes of arc-first developed by
the Sumerians, and later developed extensively by the Babylonians,
millennia earlier. The direct expansion and inclusion of this system
into Euclidean geometry is the main reason why we measure angles in
degrees, minutes and seconds nowadays (not to mention basing our system
of measuring time upon it also).

Arab interest in astronomy was also continued in Moghul India, where
massive observatories were built in Jaipur, for example. It is
interesting to consider that some modern historians think that the
writings of the great Copernicus (who was the first westerner to
propose an heliocentric planetary system) show much that could be
attributable to these early Muslim astronomers.

Navigation
When the first Portuguese navigators, like Vasco da Gama, sailed along
the East African coast and around the Arabian Peninsula they
encountered a well-established Arab seafaring tradition, utilizing an
advanced navigational science dating from the eighth century.
Techniques used were basically simple, but never the less by the
eleventh century Arab mariners had adapted the Chinese discovery of the
magnetic properties of lodestone for use as a compass at sea. Earlier
methods had relied on steering by Polaris, the 'North' star, and
'Kamal', a kind of simple astrolabe used to reckon relative
latitude. In fact, it is believed that Europeans first acquired a
knowledge of the magnetic compass and the astrolabe (later to become
the sextant) from Muslim sailors.

The renowned Arab navigator Shihab al Ahmed bin Majid al Najdi
(c.1500), at the height of Arab navigational prowess, wrote a
masterpiece entitled "the Book of Profitable Things concerning the
First Principles and Rules of Navigation" which featured much
astronomical observational data, amongst other things nautical.

Part of the legacy of this period include the fact that many of the
brightest stars still bear Arabic names, allocated to them by Arab
astronomers and navigators, for example Betelgeuse, Deneb, Aldebaran
and Altair. These names, along with numerous other facets of Arab
scientific nomenclature and mathematics, passed into Europe during the
Renaissance.

However, this period, marked by the 'collision' of two great
maritime powers - the European and the Arabian - was the beginning
of the era of European ascendancy and the decline of Arab commercial
dominance in Middle Eastern and Oriental seas.

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:25:56 -0400, Jeff Rigby wrote:


You want to start a new thread on this Harry? The middle class has been
overtaxed since Johnson. Our standard of living (middle class) has been
reduced to the point that it is now necessary for both parents to work,
primarily because of Taxes. The government takes a larger and larger
share of the pie.

Uh, actually, Federal Taxes have remained remarkably constant, at least as
a percent of GDP, for over 50 years. 18% +- 1

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFa....cfm?Docid=200

I've mentioned this before; but I guess it need saying; Johnson and the
Democrats were told that they can deficit spend and the money they spend
would be paid back by taxpayers in the form of an increased tax called
brackett creap. Simply explained; deficit spending causes inflation, then
because of inflation we are all getting more dollars and because of our
"income leveling" income tax schedule we start paying more of our income in
taxes.

The middle class usually doesn't have as may writeoffs as those who make
larger saleries so we end up paying a larger share of the taxes collected
by the government.



You can not lay this all at the current presidents feet. A small
percentage yes since his priorities changed after 9/11.

Both parties are guilty, Republicans can take a lesser share of the blame
only because they have been in power for a shorter time.

Bill McKee wrote:
Better look up the facts again.


Really?

What "facts" do you think indicate that Christians have NOT set off more
bombs in America than Muslims? All you have to do is count abortion
clinic bombings, no need to look further back than the last decade.

Of course, fundie Christian hate-mongers have been here in the US for a
lot longer. Give the Muslims 200 years or so, I'm sure they'll catch up.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bill McKee wrote:
Better look up the facts again.
Really?
What "facts" do you think indicate that Christians have NOT set off more
bombs in America than Muslims? All you have to do is count abortion
clinic bombings, no need to look further back than the last decade.
Of course, fundie Christian hate-mongers have been here in the US for a
lot longer. Give the Muslims 200 years or so, I'm sure they'll catch up.
DSK

Also, don't forget about the Christian Fundamentalist, McVeigh, who bombed
the Federal Building in Oklahoma.
(Reference: Author Jessica Stern and her book "Terror in the name of God")

Jim Carter
Bayfield

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bill McKee wrote:
Better look up the facts again.


Really?

What "facts" do you think indicate that Christians have NOT set off more
bombs in America than Muslims? All you have to do is count abortion clinic
bombings, no need to look further back than the last decade.

Of course, fundie Christian hate-mongers have been here in the US for a
lot longer. Give the Muslims 200 years or so, I'm sure they'll catch up.

DSK


The statement was about facts. Not who bombed more in America. As to Right
Wing vs. Left Wing, the Left has set off many bombs also. Maybe even more
than the right. Now how many Muslim bombings in the US? Include using
airplanes as fuel bombs. Also include the ALF, SLA, Black Panthers, and a
host of other leftist groups.

Bill McKee wrote:
The statement was about facts.

Yep.

... Not who bombed more in America.

Umm, the statement that I read was that Christians have set off more
bombs in the U.S.

That happens to be true, although very offensive to many.



... Now how many Muslim bombings in the US? Include using
airplanes as fuel bombs. Also include the ALF, SLA, Black Panthers, and a
host of other leftist groups.

Are Muslims all Leftist? Are Leftists all Muslims? The Black Panthers
might include a large percent of Muslims, but 1- how many bombings did
they carry out and 2- are they an avowedly Muslim group?

BTW the KKK proclaims itself as a Christian organization, so I
personally don't see an inconsistancy including them.

BTW #2 the SLA did not set off any bombs.

Facts, Bill, facts.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Bill McKee wrote:
The statement was about facts.

Yep.

... Not who bombed more in America.

Umm, the statement that I read was that Christians have set off more bombs
in the U.S.

That happens to be true, although very offensive to many.



... Now how many Muslim bombings in the US? Include using
airplanes as fuel bombs. Also include the ALF, SLA, Black Panthers, and
a host of other leftist groups.

Are Muslims all Leftist? Are Leftists all Muslims? The Black Panthers
might include a large percent of Muslims, but 1- how many bombings did
they carry out and 2- are they an avowedly Muslim group?

BTW the KKK proclaims itself as a Christian organization, so I personally
don't see an inconsistancy including them.

BTW #2 the SLA did not set off any bombs.

Facts, Bill, facts.

DSK


You say there was only one Muslim bomb. Wrong.

The SLA planted bombs in at least 2 SF police stations that were found.
They bombed the Emeryville PD station, they bombed the Marin County
courthouse. The also failed to blow up some LAPD cars. Bombs did not
explode. Wrong again.

Facts, DSK, facts!

KarenGreer wrote:
When did the Christians accept the KKK into Christianity?




I don't think it's actually put up to a vote.
The KKK has just as much right to claim they are Christian as does
(did) Mother Teresa, the Pope, and the murderers of doctors who perform
abortions.
Same holds true for the extremists and terrorist referencing Islam. It
would be hard to think of a single faith where some fringe group had
never gone off on a militant tangent- and of course this plays into the
hands of certain people with a different agenda who are ever so quick
to say, "See, they *all* do that!"







"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!


OMG. Unbelievable.


P. Fritz wrote:
No it isn't......it is just further proof why kevin remains the "King"


Well let's see... I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but a breif look
at the facts is in order:

Bombs set off in the U.S. by Muslim terrorists: 1
Bombs set off in the U.S. by Christians... difficult to determine, partly
because of identity of "Christians," but it's safe to say that all
abortion clinic bombs have been set off by Christians, and the KKK is
avowedly Christian also.

So, now who is the idiot?

DSK

Bill McKee wrote:
You say there was only one Muslim bomb. Wrong.


OK, then give us a count.

And let's compare that number with the number of abortion clinic
bombings... and if you're still not convinced, we'll throw in the KKK
bombings.


The SLA planted bombs in at least 2 SF police stations that were found.
They bombed the Emeryville PD station, they bombed the Marin County
courthouse. The also failed to blow up some LAPD cars. Bombs did not
explode. Wrong again.

Facts, DSK, facts!


OK, didn't know about that... did it make the news outside of
California? I stand corrected, the SLA did plant some bombs... but
they're still totally a side issue as they were neither Muslim nor
Christian.

I like the introduction of facts into this discussion, can we fine-tune
it a little bit to *relevant* facts?

DSK