"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:18:07 -0400, "Gene Kearns"
wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:16:02 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:


Can you explain this to me? ...Or explain your thoery on
why not releasing surge brakes caused all this apparatus
to fail ? (I don't know jack about surge brakes), but it
would seem to me that if you tried to back up a trailer
with brakes on that it would be hop, skip, and jumping
all around the place, and generally lettung you know that
the brakes are on.

Basically, you are correct... bottom line is, you have to give a sh*t.
Every time I have observed this problem has been soon after
maintenance or yard related moves. If you have a big enough tow
vehicle, you can muscle around even the largest trailers and that
bends backing plates. strains brake pads, and torques the axles and
springs....

FYI, a surge brake system doesn't know the difference between wishing
to stop or slow down the trailer and backing a trailer up.... it only
senses pressure and applies the brakes if the tow vehicle and trailer
push against each other. In that sense, there is a solenoid that
actuates when the back-up lights are energized on the tow vehicle that
prevents hydraulic pressure from the brake cylinder to pass on to the
wheel cylinders and the trailer freewheels backwards. If the tow
vehicle operator doesn't have a way of energizing this solenoid, the
inevitable result is backing the trailer against the brakes.... and
the harder it is to back the trailer and the larger the tow vehicle,
the more likely the damage....


Also, I lost track of how any of this
was caused by water etc. (something about the solenoids?)


The solenoid is electrically actuated from the tow vehicle back-up
lights. Depending on the wiring harness, it may or may not be possible
to disconnect the lights (during immersion) without disconnecting the
wire to the back-up solenoid.... and, thus, forcing the operator to
back-up against the brake pressure.

These surge brakes must be different on bigger trailers. Every surge
brake that I have ever seen on smaller (3,000 to 5,000 lb boats) boat
trailers are free wheeling in reverse specifically for that reason (of
course these were all drum brakes, if that makes any difference).

The Other Dave Hall

Lots of us have disk brakes. Work much nicer for stopping the rig. First
post said he had to replace rotors. Says they are disk brakes.

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:16:08 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:18:07 -0400, "Gene Kearns"
wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:16:02 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:


Can you explain this to me? ...Or explain your thoery on
why not releasing surge brakes caused all this apparatus
to fail ? (I don't know jack about surge brakes), but it
would seem to me that if you tried to back up a trailer
with brakes on that it would be hop, skip, and jumping
all around the place, and generally lettung you know that
the brakes are on.

Basically, you are correct... bottom line is, you have to give a sh*t.
Every time I have observed this problem has been soon after
maintenance or yard related moves. If you have a big enough tow
vehicle, you can muscle around even the largest trailers and that
bends backing plates. strains brake pads, and torques the axles and
springs....

FYI, a surge brake system doesn't know the difference between wishing
to stop or slow down the trailer and backing a trailer up.... it only
senses pressure and applies the brakes if the tow vehicle and trailer
push against each other. In that sense, there is a solenoid that
actuates when the back-up lights are energized on the tow vehicle that
prevents hydraulic pressure from the brake cylinder to pass on to the
wheel cylinders and the trailer freewheels backwards. If the tow
vehicle operator doesn't have a way of energizing this solenoid, the
inevitable result is backing the trailer against the brakes.... and
the harder it is to back the trailer and the larger the tow vehicle,
the more likely the damage....


Also, I lost track of how any of this
was caused by water etc. (something about the solenoids?)


The solenoid is electrically actuated from the tow vehicle back-up
lights. Depending on the wiring harness, it may or may not be possible
to disconnect the lights (during immersion) without disconnecting the
wire to the back-up solenoid.... and, thus, forcing the operator to
back-up against the brake pressure.

These surge brakes must be different on bigger trailers. Every surge
brake that I have ever seen on smaller (3,000 to 5,000 lb boats) boat
trailers are free wheeling in reverse specifically for that reason (of
course these were all drum brakes, if that makes any difference).

The Other Dave Hall

Lots of us have disk brakes. Work much nicer for stopping the rig. First
post said he had to replace rotors. Says they are disk brakes.


Yes, I realize that he has disk brakes, which is why I asked if that
made a difference given that my experience with surge brakes are all
drums. Off the top of my head I do not see why it would make any
difference in a surge system and see no reason why they would not
simply be free wheeling in reverse instead of some complicated
electrical system to override the braking system whenever the reverse
lights on the tow vehicle are on. At first I thought maybe it would
help if you started to drift or coast backward on a hill, but since
both the trailer and the tow vehicle would be drifting together there
would be no "surge" to cause any braking. So I guess my point and
question is are there surge brakes that, absent an electronic sensor,
will brake in reverse and if so, why? It really isn't a drum vs. disk
question or comment at all (I don't think).

The Other Dave Hall

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:16:08 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:18:07 -0400, "Gene Kearns"
wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:16:02 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:


Can you explain this to me? ...Or explain your thoery on
why not releasing surge brakes caused all this apparatus
to fail ? (I don't know jack about surge brakes), but it
would seem to me that if you tried to back up a trailer
with brakes on that it would be hop, skip, and jumping
all around the place, and generally lettung you know that
the brakes are on.

Basically, you are correct... bottom line is, you have to give a sh*t.
Every time I have observed this problem has been soon after
maintenance or yard related moves. If you have a big enough tow
vehicle, you can muscle around even the largest trailers and that
bends backing plates. strains brake pads, and torques the axles and
springs....

FYI, a surge brake system doesn't know the difference between wishing
to stop or slow down the trailer and backing a trailer up.... it only
senses pressure and applies the brakes if the tow vehicle and trailer
push against each other. In that sense, there is a solenoid that
actuates when the back-up lights are energized on the tow vehicle that
prevents hydraulic pressure from the brake cylinder to pass on to the
wheel cylinders and the trailer freewheels backwards. If the tow
vehicle operator doesn't have a way of energizing this solenoid, the
inevitable result is backing the trailer against the brakes.... and
the harder it is to back the trailer and the larger the tow vehicle,
the more likely the damage....


Also, I lost track of how any of this
was caused by water etc. (something about the solenoids?)


The solenoid is electrically actuated from the tow vehicle back-up
lights. Depending on the wiring harness, it may or may not be possible
to disconnect the lights (during immersion) without disconnecting the
wire to the back-up solenoid.... and, thus, forcing the operator to
back-up against the brake pressure.

These surge brakes must be different on bigger trailers. Every surge
brake that I have ever seen on smaller (3,000 to 5,000 lb boats) boat
trailers are free wheeling in reverse specifically for that reason (of
course these were all drum brakes, if that makes any difference).

The Other Dave Hall

Lots of us have disk brakes. Work much nicer for stopping the rig. First
post said he had to replace rotors. Says they are disk brakes.


Yes, I realize that he has disk brakes, which is why I asked if that
made a difference given that my experience with surge brakes are all
drums. Off the top of my head I do not see why it would make any
difference in a surge system and see no reason why they would not
simply be free wheeling in reverse instead of some complicated
electrical system to override the braking system whenever the reverse
lights on the tow vehicle are on. At first I thought maybe it would
help if you started to drift or coast backward on a hill, but since
both the trailer and the tow vehicle would be drifting together there
would be no "surge" to cause any braking. So I guess my point and
question is are there surge brakes that, absent an electronic sensor,
will brake in reverse and if so, why? It really isn't a drum vs. disk
question or comment at all (I don't think).

The Other Dave Hall

To get freewheeling in reverse on a show system, you have to have free
backing shoes. Built different than the normal shoe type brakes. On disks,
there is no easy way, other than the backup solenoid to inhibit the brakes
from working when backing up. Or you can lock the coupler from sliding. My
Dico coupler is easy, as you move the safty locking pin to the hole in the
slide of the coupler. My Atwood coupling, had to have a plate installed
that released everytime you stopped.

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:05:07 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:

Yes, I realize that he has disk brakes, which is why I asked if that
made a difference given that my experience with surge brakes are all
drums. Off the top of my head I do not see why it would make any
difference in a surge system and see no reason why they would not
simply be free wheeling in reverse instead of some complicated
electrical system to override the braking system whenever the reverse
lights on the tow vehicle are on. At first I thought maybe it would
help if you started to drift or coast backward on a hill, but since
both the trailer and the tow vehicle would be drifting together there
would be no "surge" to cause any braking. So I guess my point and
question is are there surge brakes that, absent an electronic sensor,
will brake in reverse and if so, why? It really isn't a drum vs. disk
question or comment at all (I don't think).

The Other Dave Hall

To get freewheeling in reverse on a show system, you have to have free
backing shoes. Built different than the normal shoe type brakes. On disks,
there is no easy way, other than the backup solenoid to inhibit the brakes
from working when backing up. Or you can lock the coupler from sliding. My
Dico coupler is easy, as you move the safty locking pin to the hole in the
slide of the coupler. My Atwood coupling, had to have a plate installed
that released everytime you stopped.


Thanks.

The Other Dave Hall