wrote:
wrote:
In extremely cold weather, some diesel engine operators will mix small
amounts of gasoline with the diesel fuel in order to make the fuel more
combustible in a diesel engine. In that case, it's the gasoline that is
helping the diesel burn, not a case of more easily ignited diesel
assisting the more reluctant gasoline to burn as a result of
compression.

thats done to keep the diesel from turning into jello at low
temperatures. the cars i had could take up to 30% gas for that in the
winter.

Matt


Certainly; but consider that you were limited to that 30%. If you
exceeded 30%, you risked damaging the engine because the mixture would
be too volatile, (rather than not volatile enough), right?

if you go over 30% it would run too hot (so i was told) and it would
ingite too early like you say.

But the reason you add gas is NOT to make it burn better but to keep it
from freezing.

Matt

Diesels have very high compression ratios. Usually starting at 14:1 and
going as high as over 20:1. Many have turbos or superchargers. This makes
them more efficient. The high compression makes it auto ignite the fuel
when it is introduced. Diesel fuel injection systems have very high fuel
line pressures to overcome the cylinder pressure when injecting fuel.
Diesels are not tolerant of any out of spec conditions in the rotating
components because of the high cylinder pressures. A gas engine may limp
home with a bad rod bearing, a diesel will self distruct in short order.

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On 1 Jul 2005 08:48:37 -0700, wrote:



K. Smith wrote:
zee-qi wrote:
hi people.
i would ask you something.Who can explain me how does work diesel
engine.?and what kind of system it need to work normally.
..thx for your ansver...


They use diesel fuel which has a very low auto ignition temp (about
200-210C) so if a "vapour" of diesel sees 200C it auto ignites without a
spark.

Petrol gasolene has a higher auto ignition temp (250-280C) so it needs
an electric spark to ignite it.


Are you sure you're explaining that correctly?

I wondered the same thing - I just read what Karen wrote.

It's my understanding that the auto-ignition point isn't relevant with
gas engines because it doesn't rely on compression for ignition - it
relies on a spark. Which, at least to my mind, would indicate gas
would have a low flashpoint and a high auto ignition temperature.
Conversely, a diesel has a high flash point and a low auto ignition
temperature which is why the compression is high.

Also, it's my understanding that the reason some gas engines have high
compression ratios is more for power production.

Or am I wrong?

On 1 Jul 2005 09:50:31 -0700, wrote:



wrote:
wrote:
In extremely cold weather, some diesel engine operators will mix small
amounts of gasoline with the diesel fuel in order to make the fuel more
combustible in a diesel engine. In that case, it's the gasoline that is
helping the diesel burn, not a case of more easily ignited diesel
assisting the more reluctant gasoline to burn as a result of
compression.

thats done to keep the diesel from turning into jello at low
temperatures. the cars i had could take up to 30% gas for that in the
winter.

Matt


Certainly; but consider that you were limited to that 30%. If you
exceeded 30%, you risked damaging the engine because the mixture would
be too volatile, (rather than not volatile enough), right?

if you go over 30% it would run too hot (so i was told) and it would
ingite too early like you say.

But the reason you add gas is NOT to make it burn better but to keep it
from freezing.

If you put gas into diesel, it won't mix.

You put kerosene into diesel to help with the anti-gel. Kerosene will
mix with diesel - gas won't.

HarryKrause wrote:
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 1 Jul 2005 09:50:31 -0700, wrote:



wrote:

wrote:

In extremely cold weather, some diesel engine operators will mix small
amounts of gasoline with the diesel fuel in order to make the fuel more
combustible in a diesel engine. In that case, it's the gasoline that is
helping the diesel burn, not a case of more easily ignited diesel
assisting the more reluctant gasoline to burn as a result of
compression.

thats done to keep the diesel from turning into jello at low
temperatures. the cars i had could take up to 30% gas for that in the
winter.

Matt


Certainly; but consider that you were limited to that 30%. If you
exceeded 30%, you risked damaging the engine because the mixture would
be too volatile, (rather than not volatile enough), right?

if you go over 30% it would run too hot (so i was told) and it would
ingite too early like you say.

But the reason you add gas is NOT to make it burn better but to keep it

from freezing.

If you put gas into diesel, it won't mix.

You put kerosene into diesel to help with the anti-gel. Kerosene will
mix with diesel - gas won't.



This is a 50 year old memory, and I am hazy about it, but I think my old
man poured some sort of alcohol mix into his diesel truck on the coldest
days of winter to help it start. I know he poured *something* in there.
No, it wasn't Four Roses. He called it diesel starting fluid. Well, it
smelled like alcohol.



Could it have been ether?
Even here in the moderately cool PACNW people often spray some ether
into
older diesels that are reluctant to start in the winter.

I hear you can buy it from Hugh Hefner. He sends some really gorgeous,
well stacked gal wearing fishnet stockings and high heels down to the
dock to deliver it.

As far as I know, she's the ether bunny.

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:05:50 -0400, HarryKrause
wrote:

wrote:

HarryKrause wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

On 1 Jul 2005 09:50:31 -0700, wrote:



wrote:


wrote:


In extremely cold weather, some diesel engine operators will mix small
amounts of gasoline with the diesel fuel in order to make the fuel more
combustible in a diesel engine. In that case, it's the gasoline that is
helping the diesel burn, not a case of more easily ignited diesel
assisting the more reluctant gasoline to burn as a result of
compression.

thats done to keep the diesel from turning into jello at low
temperatures. the cars i had could take up to 30% gas for that in the
winter.

Matt


Certainly; but consider that you were limited to that 30%. If you
exceeded 30%, you risked damaging the engine because the mixture would
be too volatile, (rather than not volatile enough), right?

if you go over 30% it would run too hot (so i was told) and it would
ingite too early like you say.

But the reason you add gas is NOT to make it burn better but to keep it

from freezing.

If you put gas into diesel, it won't mix.

You put kerosene into diesel to help with the anti-gel. Kerosene will
mix with diesel - gas won't.

This is a 50 year old memory, and I am hazy about it, but I think my old
man poured some sort of alcohol mix into his diesel truck on the coldest
days of winter to help it start. I know he poured *something* in there.
No, it wasn't Four Roses. He called it diesel starting fluid. Well, it
smelled like alcohol.

Could it have been ether?
Even here in the moderately cool PACNW people often spray some ether
into
older diesels that are reluctant to start in the winter.

I hear you can buy it from Hugh Hefner. He sends some really gorgeous,
well stacked gal wearing fishnet stockings and high heels down to the
dock to deliver it.

As far as I know, she's the ether bunny.

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ouch!

You know, I don't really remember what it was. It came in a round metal
can with a screw top. My recollection is that it smelled like alcohol.
He didn't often use his diesel delivery truck in the winter and kept it
in an unheated storage building. But once in a while in the winter he'd
crank it up and send it off to pick up a load of rowboats or whatever.

It was ether - I remember my Uncle the dairy farmer who had two
International Super M diesels. He would pour some ether into the
tanks and light the diesels off - worked great.

My '98 Tahoe 6.5TD owner's manual specifically states never to use ether
(long before the pistons approach the top of their compression stroke, the
ether-air mixture will detonate causing severe knock and damage the engine).
Contrary to popular belief, diesel engines are not "controlled knock"
engines: at the top of the compression stroke when the highly compressed air
is more than hot enough to ignite it, diesel fuel is injected at very high
pressure into the combustion chamber -- the diesel fuel ignites as it is
injected. The extremely quick rise in pressure causes the massive torque
associated with diesel engines (and noise, too).

Gasoline should not be mixed into diesel. To prevent diesel from gelling at
low temp, GM recommends kerosene to no more than 1/4 of the total (kerosene
does not have the lubricating properties of diesel and can damage mechanical
diesel fuel pumps and diesel fuel injectors). If you have to mix kerosene
with diesel for prolonged periods of time, it is recommended that you add
diesel fuel lubricants to the fuel tank.

Hope this helps. Regards, Franko

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:05:50 -0400, HarryKrause
wrote:

wrote:

HarryKrause wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

On 1 Jul 2005 09:50:31 -0700, wrote:



wrote:


wrote:


In extremely cold weather, some diesel engine operators will mix
small
amounts of gasoline with the diesel fuel in order to make the fuel
more
combustible in a diesel engine. In that case, it's the gasoline
that is
helping the diesel burn, not a case of more easily ignited diesel
assisting the more reluctant gasoline to burn as a result of
compression.

thats done to keep the diesel from turning into jello at low
temperatures. the cars i had could take up to 30% gas for that in
the
winter.

Matt


Certainly; but consider that you were limited to that 30%. If you
exceeded 30%, you risked damaging the engine because the mixture
would
be too volatile, (rather than not volatile enough), right?

if you go over 30% it would run too hot (so i was told) and it would
ingite too early like you say.

But the reason you add gas is NOT to make it burn better but to keep
it

from freezing.

If you put gas into diesel, it won't mix.

You put kerosene into diesel to help with the anti-gel. Kerosene will
mix with diesel - gas won't.

This is a 50 year old memory, and I am hazy about it, but I think my
old
man poured some sort of alcohol mix into his diesel truck on the
coldest
days of winter to help it start. I know he poured *something* in there.
No, it wasn't Four Roses. He called it diesel starting fluid. Well, it
smelled like alcohol.

Could it have been ether?
Even here in the moderately cool PACNW people often spray some ether
into
older diesels that are reluctant to start in the winter.

I hear you can buy it from Hugh Hefner. He sends some really gorgeous,
well stacked gal wearing fishnet stockings and high heels down to the
dock to deliver it.

As far as I know, she's the ether bunny.

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ouch!

You know, I don't really remember what it was. It came in a round metal
can with a screw top. My recollection is that it smelled like alcohol.
He didn't often use his diesel delivery truck in the winter and kept it
in an unheated storage building. But once in a while in the winter he'd
crank it up and send it off to pick up a load of rowboats or whatever.

It was ether - I remember my Uncle the dairy farmer who had two
International Super M diesels. He would pour some ether into the
tanks and light the diesels off - worked great.

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 1 Jul 2005 08:48:37 -0700, wrote:



K. Smith wrote:

zee-qi wrote:

hi people.
i would ask you something.Who can explain me how does work diesel
engine.?and what kind of system it need to work normally.
..thx for your ansver...


They use diesel fuel which has a very low auto ignition temp (about
200-210C) so if a "vapour" of diesel sees 200C it auto ignites without a
spark.

Petrol gasolene has a higher auto ignition temp (250-280C) so it needs
an electric spark to ignite it.


Are you sure you're explaining that correctly?


I wondered the same thing - I just read what Karen wrote.

It's my understanding that the auto-ignition point isn't relevant with
gas engines because it doesn't rely on compression for ignition - it
relies on a spark. Which, at least to my mind, would indicate gas
would have a low flashpoint and a high auto ignition temperature.
Conversely, a diesel has a high flash point and a low auto ignition
temperature which is why the compression is high.

Also, it's my understanding that the reason some gas engines have high
compression ratios is more for power production.

Or am I wrong?


Hi Tom,

It wasn't bait I promise, just as I promise you won't like this:-)

Only a vapour will ignite; either because it's exceeded it's auto
ignition temp or it's in contact with something well above it, say a
"spark"?? All the spark does is be a point of heat above the particular
vapour's auto ignition temp. Even petrol will not burn if it is in
"liquid" form indeed if raw petrol gets on a spark plug (flooded) you
can crank it till the cows come home & it won't go till the raw fuel
evaporates into a form (vapour/gas) & then reaches an ignitable mixture.


DIESEL
The trick here is that diesel has a low auto ignition temp but also
remains "liquid" at normal room type temps. So it's essentially not able
to be ignited even if in contact with something well above it's auto
ignition temp. You can throw a lit match in if you like but please
don't!!!! just in case it's a hot day!!!:-) Also it takes either
pre-heating or considerable mechanical pressure to vapourise it such
that it will ignite & burn at all. So in a diesel the fuel isn't present
at all till the moment the injection starts, save a small lag while the
burn establishes itself (the characteristic diesel knock) the burn only
continues so long as more fuel is injected, at low power or idle the
injection stops almost immediately, at higher power it continues over a
longer part of the cycle (giving better mechanical advantage because the
most torque is generated when the crank is at 90 degs to TDC)


PETROL
Petrol can be a vapour at most normal temps unless in a sealed container
&/or under pressure. So the combustion chamber must never have any even
small surface that exceeds the petrol's autoignition temp or the vapour
will auto ignite, even as the piston is still coming up on the
compression stroke, it must all remain unignited till the correct timing
when the plug "sparks".

Once a vapourised fuel (either) is ignited in the presence of an
oxidiser (air) in the right proportions (mixture), say because it's come
in contact with something above it's auto ignition temp then the game is
irreversibly on, the flamefront will advance in a predicatable manner
(16m/s) till it consumes all the available vapour &/or oxygen.

The ignitable mixture ranges varies with fuels but with most petrols
it's usually around 11-1 to 17-1 by weight; so too much fuel & it's not
a vapour (not enough oxidant can be present to supply the burn) below
the min lean mixture & again the vapour becomes too dispersed to ignite
at all &/or carry the flamefront.

Some deluded engine makers claim they can get around these facts by
creating what they oft call a "stratified" charge which is their way of
admitting they know a lean mixture can't burn predictably but say by
concentrating it around the spark they can cheat & get it to ignite (one
totally discredited example was Ficht & now called E-Tec when not only
did they claim "stratified" but it was so lean, they needed a continuous
firing of the spark plug to even get ignition!!)

The danger with over lean mixtures is that "if" you can get ignition at
all then the trouble has just begun because as soon as the first so
called "stratified" part of the mixture ignites the chamber
pressure/temp (press & temp are one & the same) goes up (as intended
after all that drives the piston back down) but any even small pockets
of unstratified mixture (endgases) also immediately auto ignite. This
uncontrolled auto ignition means the burn is totally erratic &
unpredictable. You or your engines might get away with it forever or for
a short time only, but whichever way you see it the risks are very high.
Chrysler & Honda both very biggies in engines couldn't make it work,
Ficht certainly couldn't the difference was Chrysler & Honda knew
exactly what the problem was so stopped, but not Soros the convicted
union lacky he persisted ****ing other peoples' money against the wall
till an American icon Co went down the drain.

So nothing new really all well known & pretty well understood since the
1930s over lean mixtures lead to chamber temp rises which leads to more
detonation which leads to higher chamber temps which leads to more
detonation which leads to .... well you already know the damage it can
do??? it shook your electrics to bits, but hey don't feel bad it also
blew injectors from heads, made the plumbing fall to bits such that the
USCG had to make them have a safety recall, the gearcases (which being
OMC were never much good anyway) really fell to pieces under the
hammering repeated detonation can deliver to a direct drive train, then
of course the biggest failure mode was just damaged & melted pistons,
crack rings all the usual stuff expected of engines run at power in a
lean condition.

By the way Tom how are those new E-Tecs running have you got them all
sorted yet?? or are you still being run around while Bomb try to decide
how to back out of this latest consumer funded experiment???


K

So as the lying idiot Krause has chosen to tell us below about his
fantasy father lies here's some more for you to ponder as you enjoy
asking why absolutely no verifiable fact can be found, after all in
another of his father lies he claims he crossed the Atlantic in a 23ft
outboard powered craft & got a fire tug welcome into NY!!! A sicker more
dangerous simpleton there is not on this planet than our unionist
organiser Krause.

Nope. He was a successful boat dealer and marina operator for 30 years in
New Haven County, Connecticut. He served several terms as president of the
Marine Trade Association and also lobbied for boat dealers before the
Connecticut legislature. Many of his best friends were competing boat
dealers. They talked shop a lot. If someone with something strange showed up
on his doorstep and he were interested in offering a trade-in on it, he'd
call one of his buds to give him a price or drive on over for a look-see.
The "usual list of suspects" he, of course, recognized because of his
experience, and he had a pretty good idea of what a used rig might fetch on
his sales lot. He never took a "price boat" in on trade, though. They always
needed more work than they were worth.

Many boat shoppers never were aware that most of the boat dealers in my
dad's area were really close friends and shared information about potential
customers all the time. If he didn't have what a customer wanted, he'd call
"Dickie" or "Paul" or "Art," all competing dealers and see if they had
something appropriate. "Dickie's" father owned the New Haven Arena, where
boat shows were held, and was also chairman of the National Basketball
Association.

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:56:53 +1000, "K. Smith" wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

All that makes sense to me.

By the way Tom how are those new E-Tecs running have you got them all
sorted yet?? or are you still being run around while Bomb try to decide
how to back out of this latest consumer funded experiment???

Love 'em. Can't believe the power and efficiency of them. And quiet?
It's amazing - makes four strokes sound like hot rods.

About a hundred hours on them at this point between me and my friend
and if I project things out, we'll be averaging about 8 gallons an
hour average - runs and trolling of course. Longer runs like to the
Canyons will bring that up, but I'm projecting anywhere from 10 to 13
gallons per hour at cruise to the grounds. WOT of course is a
different story.

I've talked to a lot of folks at the local ramps who have the 90
E-TECs and they can't say enough about them.

So far, so good.

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:56:53 +1000, "K. Smith" wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

All that makes sense to me.


By the way Tom how are those new E-Tecs running have you got them all
sorted yet?? or are you still being run around while Bomb try to decide
how to back out of this latest consumer funded experiment???


Love 'em. Can't believe the power and efficiency of them. And quiet?
It's amazing - makes four strokes sound like hot rods.

About a hundred hours on them at this point between me and my friend
and if I project things out, we'll be averaging about 8 gallons an
hour average - runs and trolling of course. Longer runs like to the
Canyons will bring that up, but I'm projecting anywhere from 10 to 13
gallons per hour at cruise to the grounds. WOT of course is a
different story.

I've talked to a lot of folks at the local ramps who have the 90
E-TECs and they can't say enough about them.

So far, so good.

I'm genuinely glad they're OK Tom & wish you well with them. Hope you
keep us up to date with their general stuff, well done & congrats.

K

Seeing yesterday Krause lie was about the fantasies father boat dealer,
in today's Krause lie you can see how he tries to use the father lie to
pretend boating experience of which the lying idiot has none. As well as
the most brazen liar I've even experienced he's full up himself, have a
read of this infantile crap:-)



Let's see. I've owned many different Evinrude and Johnson outboards from
OMC,
three different Merc outboards from Merc, a Clinton, a Scot A****er
(well, my
father took in one on a trade and gave it to me) and some piece of crap
from Sears
that my father won at the New England boat show and was autographed by Ted
Williams. Until very recently, Honda made only low power outboards and
these were
of no interest to me. And I see nothing Yamaha offers that interests me even
slighty. Oh...I've also owned boats with Atomic 4's, Volvo diesels, MAN
diesels, a
Caterpillar diesel and one boat with twin Cadillac Crusader engines,
plus a few
others. I believe in my lifetime I've owned around 30 different power and
sailboats.

Plus a Cushman motor scooter, a Lambretta motor scooter, a Honda Super Hawk
motorcycle, several jeeps, including a Willys sports car, an Aero
Willys, a 55
Chevy, an MGA, an Austin Healy 100, a TR-4A-IRS, a Volvo P whatever the
hell it
was, a Volvo Turbo, a Jag 150-S, two Ford trucks, a BMW 2002ti, a
Porsche 911
(when they were $5400 brand new), a Lotus Cortina, a Mini-Cooper S, a Toyota
Corona, a Toyota Corolla, a Nissan shoebox and I suppose a few more.

Still have the Jag and a Ford truck. The Jag is a lovely piece of crap,
and the
Ford truck is...terrific.

thx people..i am gonna read all of them (explanation).and you have been
written some another system like gasoline system..