What do I lose by having a shorter boat?
 

Hi there!
I'm considering a Necky Manitou (12'10") for light weight, seat, looks
and price, but I wonder, what would I lose in speed to, say, a
Mainstream Biscayne (14'6")? I won't be going all out though, just
keeping a medium pace for workout.

Thanks!

On 14-Jun-2005, "donquijote1954" wrote:

I'm considering a Necky Manitou (12'10") for light weight, seat, looks
and price, but I wonder, what would I lose in speed to, say, a
Mainstream Biscayne (14'6")?

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed and overall
length isn't one of them.

I won't be going all out though, just keeping a medium pace for workout.

If all you want is a workout, it doesn't matter how fast the kayak is.
One hour of paddling is one hour of paddling regardless of what you
paddle.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 14-Jun-2005, "donquijote1954"
wrote:

I'm considering a Necky Manitou (12'10") for light weight,
seat, looks
and price, but I wonder, what would I lose in speed to, say, a
Mainstream Biscayne (14'6")?

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed
and overall
length isn't one of them.
=====================
That's not what I have always read. I've always thought that for
boats with the same width
and load, length is the determining factor on speed.
http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publishers/ics/how_cano.htm
http://www.evergreencanoe.com/canoe_design.html
http://www.solarnavigator.net/hull_speed.htm


I won't be going all out though, just keeping a medium pace
for workout.

If all you want is a workout, it doesn't matter how fast the
kayak is.
One hour of paddling is one hour of paddling regardless of what
you
paddle.

Mike

That's what I read too. The question is how a recreational boat would
be slower than a touring boat of the same lenght. I read a bottom that
makes for more initial stability also produces less speed. For example
the Biscayne at 14'6" was rated a mere 3 out of 5 in speed when it was
a Dagger Savannah...

http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?Bo...C&BoatI D=135

Yet it's rated as fast by several reviewers...

"Just bought a Savannah Expedition model. Love it -- fast, stable,
tracks beautifully. Great fit for me. Paddle some rivers, some lakes,
some of Great Lakes. When I demo'd 5 other boats the Savannah was the
hands-down winner."

http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/show....html?prod=483

If it's a work out you want Mike is spot on.
As a rule of thumb , longer boats witgh the same displacement are
generally faster. There are exceptions always.
You may be swapping speed and tracking fonr initial stability.
For scooting about a pond and a work out I am not sure it matters.
Alex

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed
and _overall_length_ isn't one of them.

On 14-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

That's not what I have always read. I've always thought that for
boats with the same width
and load, length is the determining factor on speed.

Better read more carefully. Overall length is not a determining factor.
Waterline length is _one_ factor. In kayaks, there is _no_ correlation
between overall length and waterline length.

Mike

On 14-Jun-2005, "donquijote1954" wrote:

I read a bottom that
makes for more initial stability also produces less speed.

Take the book you read that in and toss it. There are a lot
of misconceptions in canoeing and kayaking. Most seem to have
to do with speed.

You can't predict speed by looking at one geometric factor in
a hull. Speed is a function of many factors.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote
[...]
Take the book you read that in and toss it. There are a lot
of misconceptions in canoeing and kayaking.

If I did that with all my canoeing books,
most of those should be thrown away :-)

But I admit that it really amazes me how most modern canoe books still
repeat the same nonsense over and over an again. While there is so
much really good information available. I understand there is a need
to simplify in books, but it could be done a lot better IMNHO.

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed
and _overall_length_ isn't one of them.

On 14-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

That's not what I have always read. I've always thought that
for
boats with the same width
and load, length is the determining factor on speed.

Better read more carefully. Overall length is not a
determining factor.
Waterline length is _one_ factor. In kayaks, there is _no_
correlation
between overall length and waterline length.
=======================
Now you're just trying to over your statement. What kind of
canoe do you have that the waterline length isn't inreased when
the "overall" length is inceased? I responded only to your
statemenet that length HAS NO effect on speed. That dosn't
appear to be true. If length plays no factor, then explain all
these other "many factors" that do.





Mike

I know where Mike is coming from and it is splitting hairs. The
Eddyline Night Hawk for example drops fron the bow to the water line
very quickly and the stern is rather abrupt too. This makes it faster
than the over all length would indicate . The Old Chinook is a little
faster than most would think because of the same design feature. Most
boats have however a gracefull drop into and exit from the water
sometimes 2 feet from the tip if the bow. An old Seaward Quest is a
case in point. That said the Quest is a rocket.
Water line length has a large effect on speed, other design
charictaristics do as well. Sealution from Teiken / Wildernes Systems
for example is long but broad at the centre line. This boat enters the
water at the bow cutting nicely then fattens up like a barge a few feet
back giving in effect a second bow wave in stead of gently parting and
uniformly pushing the water out of her way. The lines to the stern
cause a drag that slows the boat down more as they are abrupt and don't
allow a smooth flow .
They are a great beginner boat but these are design realities.. The bow
also overhang the water line by about 16 inches at least.
The boats I preffer are not the fastest on the water but rather the
more gracefull. NDK Explored and Capella. Not that fast but nice boats.
Some boats break these simple rules because they can plane and get the
known water lines right up out od the way. This you will se if you surf
with WW boats.
There is all kinds of cool math on this but most of it is common sense
and theoretical math can be blown away because rules are narrow and
often just accepted theorys.
Normally an 18 foot long touring kayak will be much faster than a 14
foot boat. I have a friend in a 14' 6" boat that I van hardly keep up
with in my Explorer: But she is a bit of a race horse.
Allow another variable here. I cary 20 or 30 pounds of safety gear for
out trips, She carries a bottle of water and weighs 125 lbs. The boat
displaces less water and as it is short has little or no rocker.
Again variables.
Anything you put on the water will be fun.
If you want to paddle with Linda though , best trade the Lendal for a
Honda.
Alex