John Gaquin wrote:
"____m___~¿Ô___m____" wrote in message

ref my earlier post re your credibility.


According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and
degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners.

Stick that up your denials, Gaquin.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni-


According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and
degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners.

Stick that up your denials, Gaquin.

Crude response, but not atypical, Harry.

Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said
is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at
abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. Of
course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it exacerbate
it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen
pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean that
those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more
train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that.

If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear.

1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP Brigade
was seriously deficient. The Brigade in general was ill prepared for its
responsibilities in Iraq. This, however, does not cause wanton prisoner
abuse. The Taguba report specifically references a number of units and
individuals within the 800th that overcame the challenges and performed in
an exemplary fashion. I have not seen this mentioned in any press coverage.

2) The 800th MP Brigade comprised some 8 MP Battalions. Both prisoner
abuse events -- the Oct-Nov multiple incidents at abu Ghraib and the May
2003 incident at Camp Bucca (for which 4 soldiers have already been charged
and, I think, tried)-- involved members of the same unit, the 320th MP
Battalion. All MP soldiers involved in the abu Ghraib incidents were from a
smaller group within the 320th, members of the 372nd MP Co. All prisoner
abuse actions appear to have occurred involving MP soldiers operating in
conjunction military intelligence operatives, specifically from the 205th MI
Brigade.

The press gives little or no attention to the fact that the abuses in
question were initially reported by soldiers within the very units, and that
the command initiated investigations immediately. The command
simultaneously issued a public press release stating that they were
investigating allegations of prisoner abuse. There was no cover-up here,
although one is widely implied in the press coverage.

When the report is read and all is said and done, you still have what I
referred to earlier -- a few dozen people drawn into the maelstrom, while
99.9% behave honorably and well. Will that change with possible additional
revelations? Possibly. The Red Cross report is an unknown factor, until
they release details. The IRC has been known to define both beatings and
slow mail delivery as prisoner abuse. They sometimes seem to start with the
premise that there is presumed abuse by virtue of incarceration, and grade
downward from there. But if you have ten times the troop abuse involvement
in Iraq, it will remain a statistical aberration. A political and PR
bonanza for the press and the DNC, who have been hoping for just such an
event, but a statistical aberration nonetheless. Those who deal in facts
instead of feelings can see this.

On Sun, 09 May 2004 14:33:14 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:


Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually
said is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already
committed at abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and
investigation.

"In two tense congressional hearings that attracted Pentagon brass and
war protesters, Rumsfeld warned that unreleased videos and photos depict
far worse treatment of Iraqis than the widely distributed pictures of
naked detainees in humiliating poses that spawned worldwide outrage
recently."

"We're talking about rape and murder here, we're not just talking about
giving people a humiliating experience," said Sen. Lindsay Graham,
R-S.C., a member of the Armed Services Committee.

From:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8616398.htm?1c


Look, I'll agree that the vast majority of our soldiers are doing an
admirable job, but this mess is still quite troubling. While failed
leadership has a role, and the training of these particular soldiers can
be brought in to question, I keep reading about these soldiers being asked
to "soften" the detainees for interrogation. If this is true, it is a
systemic failure that needs to be addressed.

"thunder" wrote in message

Look, I'll agree that the vast majority of our soldiers are doing an
admirable job, but this mess is still quite troubling. While failed
leadership has a role, and the training of these particular soldiers can
be brought in to question, I keep reading about these soldiers being asked
to "soften" the detainees for interrogation. If this is true, it is a
systemic failure that needs to be addressed.

I agree wholeheartedly. The assigned mission of the MP units was internment
and resettlement. There should be no mixing of this with intelligence and
interrogation functions. The MI units should conduct these procedures
exclusively, subject to the rules and procedures that apply to high value,
security, and intelligence detainees -- which may well include standard
procedures to yield more compliant interrogation. This is, after all, a
war, and not a job interview. Having said that, I don't think anything we
saw in the photos or have heard described in additional allegations is
considered acceptable procedure. It is worth reiterating that only those
small MP units whose functions got mixed with the intelligence units appear
to be involved with the prisoner abuse.

I would apply the following caveat: The Taguba report refers to "systemic
failures." When the term "systemic failure" is used in a report of this
kind, the meaning is that the command and oversight structure either failed
or was improperly organized from the start. When the term "systemic
failure" is used in news reports, it is done [intentionally, I believe]
knowing that the majority of readers/listeners will misinterpret it to mean
that the whole system is involved with the abuse, that the events are
occuring throughout the country. This simply is not true, but the news
sources make no effort to clarify this point. I refer particularly to
American and European news sources. I expect nothing but propaganda from
mid-east news sources, and to date have been neither disappointed nor
surprised.

Don't misunderstand my position. I do not defend the actions of these
soldiers with prisoners. I only want to stick to facts as we know them.
Right now the US press is ginning up a feeding frenzy, having found a
fissure in the Bush campaign. They would do well to remember that when
sharks go into a frenzy, it is common for several of the sharks to get eaten
in the chaos. The press must guard against a similar level of enthusiastic
accuracy.

On Sun, 09 May 2004 17:00:02 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:


Don't misunderstand my position. I do not defend the actions of these
soldiers with prisoners. I only want to stick to facts as we know them.
Right now the US press is ginning up a feeding frenzy, having found a
fissure in the Bush campaign. They would do well to remember that when
sharks go into a frenzy, it is common for several of the sharks to get
eaten in the chaos. The press must guard against a similar level of
enthusiastic accuracy.

While not defending their actions, I somehow feel we have failed these
soldiers. I believe the soldier to be tried shortly was a reservist,
trained as a truck driver. His lack of training, and the Army's lack of
leadership is a failure not of his making. He should never have been in
that situation without the proper training. The speed of his trial being
scheduled, also, unfortunately, signals to me, scapegoat. The Army has
already, apparently, convicted a soldier of homicide. His punishment was
demoting to private, and a dishonorable discharge, *no* jail time, but
that flew under the press' radar.

The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this
would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press.

"thunder" wrote in message

The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this
would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press.

That's the conventional wisdom, and no one offers a correction. The fact is
that the allegations came from within the Army, the investigation was
launched by the Army, and the fact of the allegations and the investigation
was publicized by the Army in a press statement within days of the
allegations being made. The Army investigated and the report started moving
up the line, as is its wont, in April. The only reason the press even
noticed was because one of those nimrods was stupid enough to post pictures
on the web. Our press has effected some brilliant investigative journalism
over the years, but this ain't part of it.

On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:26:08 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message

The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of
this would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press.

That's the conventional wisdom, and no one offers a correction. The fact
is that the allegations came from within the Army, the investigation was
launched by the Army, and the fact of the allegations and the
investigation was publicized by the Army in a press statement within days
of the allegations being made. The Army investigated and the report
started moving up the line, as is its wont, in April. The only reason the
press even noticed was because one of those nimrods was stupid enough to
post pictures on the web. Our press has effected some brilliant
investigative journalism over the years, but this ain't part of it.

Yeah, but, the Red Cross had repeatedly warned the Bush administration
about abuse for over a year. I'll agree this isn't great investigative
journalism, but if it weren't for the press, we wouldn't have known,
Congress wouldn't have known (or at least could have pretended not to
know), and Bush might not have seen the pictures.

John Gaquin wrote:

"thunder" wrote in message

The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this
would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press.


That's the conventional wisdom, and no one offers a correction. The fact is
that the allegations came from within the Army, the investigation was
launched by the Army, and the fact of the allegations and the investigation
was publicized by the Army in a press statement within days of the
allegations being made. The Army investigated and the report started moving
up the line, as is its wont, in April. The only reason the press even
noticed was because one of those nimrods was stupid enough to post pictures
on the web. Our press has effected some brilliant investigative journalism
over the years, but this ain't part of it.


\
The fact is that you and all the other pro-Bush asswipes would prefer a
state-controlled press.

On Sun, 9 May 2004 17:00:02 -0400, "John Gaquin"
wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message

Look, I'll agree that the vast majority of our soldiers are doing an
admirable job, but this mess is still quite troubling. While failed
leadership has a role, and the training of these particular soldiers can
be brought in to question, I keep reading about these soldiers being asked
to "soften" the detainees for interrogation. If this is true, it is a
systemic failure that needs to be addressed.

I agree wholeheartedly. The assigned mission of the MP units was internment
and resettlement. There should be no mixing of this with intelligence and
interrogation functions. The MI units should conduct these procedures
exclusively, subject to the rules and procedures that apply to high value,
security, and intelligence detainees -- which may well include standard
procedures to yield more compliant interrogation. This is, after all, a
war, and not a job interview. Having said that, I don't think anything we
saw in the photos or have heard described in additional allegations is
considered acceptable procedure. It is worth reiterating that only those
small MP units whose functions got mixed with the intelligence units appear
to be involved with the prisoner abuse.

I would apply the following caveat: The Taguba report refers to "systemic
failures." When the term "systemic failure" is used in a report of this
kind, the meaning is that the command and oversight structure either failed
or was improperly organized from the start. When the term "systemic
failure" is used in news reports, it is done [intentionally, I believe]
knowing that the majority of readers/listeners will misinterpret it to mean
that the whole system is involved with the abuse, that the events are
occuring throughout the country. This simply is not true, but the news
sources make no effort to clarify this point. I refer particularly to
American and European news sources. I expect nothing but propaganda from
mid-east news sources, and to date have been neither disappointed nor
surprised.

Don't misunderstand my position. I do not defend the actions of these
soldiers with prisoners. I only want to stick to facts as we know them.
Right now the US press is ginning up a feeding frenzy, having found a
fissure in the Bush campaign. They would do well to remember that when
sharks go into a frenzy, it is common for several of the sharks to get eaten
in the chaos. The press must guard against a similar level of enthusiastic
accuracy.


FWIW, the European press and TV are not making near the spectacle of the
situation that the major US media are making. Even my friends in Holland thought
CNN, which shows over there, was going way overboard with the frequency of
airing the photographs.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

John Gaquin wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni-


According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and

degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners.

Stick that up your denials, Gaquin.


Crude response, but not atypical, Harry.

Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said
is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at
abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. Of
course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it exacerbate
it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen
pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean that
those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more
train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that.

If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear.

1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP Brigade
was seriously deficient.


The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the
top. The buck stops on Bush's desk.