Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles? Unfortunately a
small group of the guardsmen feeling in danger of their life, freaked out
and shot into the crowd trying to disperse the angry students.

You should not be angry at the guardsmen, you should be upset at LBJ who
sent young Americans to an war that we could never win. If LBJ had not
escalated the war, the protestors would not have threaten the guardsmen, and
the guardsmen would have been home with their family.

You do seem to make a habit of placing the blame on the wrong people.









"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

Jim wrote in message
...

: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually

worked

against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."


This can't be! I remember all those army press releases John H.
produced,
saying how well things were going and making much of the graduating

classes.

What happened!
Could the army pr people be wrong?


NPR interviewed a bunch of Iraqi guys applying for jobs with the
security
force last week. They said the overwhelming majority were applying for
the
worst reason of all: They needed jobs. The people interviewed also said
they'd never fire on their own people, which is exactly what they're
being
hired to do.



Not firing on their own people, of course, puts them a step up on the
humanity scale compared to those wonderful Ohio national guardsmen who
shot up a bunch of students at Kent State.

Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles?

Oh, Christ!!!
Some things cannot be left unchallenged.
Aplogies in advance to all:

No. Harry is not talking about a group of scared kids "surrounded by 1000's of
anger (sic) protestors throwing rocks and bottles"

Shut off the Limbaugh show and do some acutal research on Kent State. Think it
might be signfiicant that not a *single* guardsman was injured? Those thousands
of protestors with rocks and bottles must have all been lousy shots. If not,
thousands of peope throwing rocks would have simply killed off the entire squad
on the spot. The shooters were initially separated from the crowd by the brow
of a hill, and had to
crest that hill in order to open fire. You must be very young.
Here are a few incidents related to Kent State and its aftermath to help you
begin your liberation from propanganda and set you upon your quest for truth.

May 3 Ohio Governor James A. Rhodes personally appears on campus and promises
to use "every force possible" to maintain order. Rhodes denounces the
protesters as worse than brownshirts and vows to keep the Guard in Kent "until
we get rid of them."

May 4 Four students are killed and nine others are wounded when a contingent of
Guardsmen suddenly opens fire during a noontime demonstration.

July 23 Key portions of a secret Justice Department memo are disclosed by the
Akron Beacon Journal. The memorandum describes the shootings as unnecessary and
urges the Portage County Prosecutor to file criminal charges against six
Guardsmen.

October 4 The President's Commission on Campus Unrest concludes: "The actions
of some students were violent and criminal and some others were dangerous,
reckless, and irresponsible." The shootings are branded as "unnecessary,
unwarranted, and inexcusable."

October 16 The "special" state grand jury exonerates the Guardsmen, but indicts
25 individuals, mostly students, for a variety of offenses that occurred on
campus before the shootings.

Late October-November Demands for a federal grand jury mount after it is
revealed that the "special" state grand jury ignored key evidence and that one
of the "special" prosecutors told a newsman he felt the Guardsmen should have
shot more students.

Following year:

The "special" state grand jury is even further discredited when Ohio officials
dismiss charges against 20 of the 25 individuals indicted by the grand jury.
Ohio prosecutors claimed they had insufficient evidence to convict any
protesters.

1973:

May 10 In a meeting with the student petitioners, K. William O'Connor, a
high-level Justice Department official, admits that the Justice Department
already has sufficient evidence to prosecute six Guardsmen.


A bit of truth leaks out:

August 3 Assistant Attorney General J. Stanley Pottinger announces that the
Justice Department will officially conduct a new inquiry. Senator Birch Bayh
follows Pottinger's announcement by releasing a letter he received from one of
the Guard's company commanders. On the basis of that letter Bayh charges that
armed FBI informant Terry Norman may have been "the fatal catalyst" for the
tragedy.

NOTE: That letter was from one of the Guard's own company commanders, not some
left wing apologist.

1974:

October 7-17 Attorneys for James A. Rhodes unsuccessfully try to block the
release of Rhodes's deposition in the civil case until after the Ohio
gubernatorial election. The deposition reveals that Rhodes's attorney, in a
move reminiscent of the Watergate cover-up, offered into evidence an incomplete
transcript of Rhodes's May 3, 1970, press conference. Among the remarks deleted
was a comment by an official that the Guard would resort to shooting if
necessary.


Etc, etc, etc,


Now, other than "Everybody knows" and/or "I heard on Fox News, Hannity, or
Limbaugh" what facts can you cite that support your allegation that thousands
of angry protestors surrounded the troops and pelted them with rocks and
bottles?

Those innocent kids exercising their First Amendment Rights don't deserve to
have their memories villified, especially when there isn't a shred of evidence
supporting the wild allegation.

A real man would apologize for such a slanderous error.

On 23 Apr 2004 00:26:11 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles?

Oh, Christ!!!
Some things cannot be left unchallenged.
Aplogies in advance to all:

No. Harry is not talking about a group of scared kids "surrounded by 1000's of
anger (sic) protestors throwing rocks and bottles"

Shut off the Limbaugh show and do some acutal research on Kent State. Think it
might be signfiicant that not a *single* guardsman was injured? Those thousands
of protestors with rocks and bottles must have all been lousy shots. If not,
thousands of peope throwing rocks would have simply killed off the entire squad
on the spot. The shooters were initially separated from the crowd by the brow
of a hill, and had to
crest that hill in order to open fire. You must be very young.
Here are a few incidents related to Kent State and its aftermath to help you
begin your liberation from propanganda and set you upon your quest for truth.

May 3 Ohio Governor James A. Rhodes personally appears on campus and promises
to use "every force possible" to maintain order. Rhodes denounces the
protesters as worse than brownshirts and vows to keep the Guard in Kent "until
we get rid of them."

May 4 Four students are killed and nine others are wounded when a contingent of
Guardsmen suddenly opens fire during a noontime demonstration.

July 23 Key portions of a secret Justice Department memo are disclosed by the
Akron Beacon Journal. The memorandum describes the shootings as unnecessary and
urges the Portage County Prosecutor to file criminal charges against six
Guardsmen.

October 4 The President's Commission on Campus Unrest concludes: "The actions
of some students were violent and criminal and some others were dangerous,
reckless, and irresponsible." The shootings are branded as "unnecessary,
unwarranted, and inexcusable."

October 16 The "special" state grand jury exonerates the Guardsmen, but indicts
25 individuals, mostly students, for a variety of offenses that occurred on
campus before the shootings.

Late October-November Demands for a federal grand jury mount after it is
revealed that the "special" state grand jury ignored key evidence and that one
of the "special" prosecutors told a newsman he felt the Guardsmen should have
shot more students.

Following year:

The "special" state grand jury is even further discredited when Ohio officials
dismiss charges against 20 of the 25 individuals indicted by the grand jury.
Ohio prosecutors claimed they had insufficient evidence to convict any
protesters.

1973:

May 10 In a meeting with the student petitioners, K. William O'Connor, a
high-level Justice Department official, admits that the Justice Department
already has sufficient evidence to prosecute six Guardsmen.


A bit of truth leaks out:

August 3 Assistant Attorney General J. Stanley Pottinger announces that the
Justice Department will officially conduct a new inquiry. Senator Birch Bayh
follows Pottinger's announcement by releasing a letter he received from one of
the Guard's company commanders. On the basis of that letter Bayh charges that
armed FBI informant Terry Norman may have been "the fatal catalyst" for the
tragedy.

NOTE: That letter was from one of the Guard's own company commanders, not some
left wing apologist.

1974:

October 7-17 Attorneys for James A. Rhodes unsuccessfully try to block the
release of Rhodes's deposition in the civil case until after the Ohio
gubernatorial election. The deposition reveals that Rhodes's attorney, in a
move reminiscent of the Watergate cover-up, offered into evidence an incomplete
transcript of Rhodes's May 3, 1970, press conference. Among the remarks deleted
was a comment by an official that the Guard would resort to shooting if
necessary.


Etc, etc, etc,


Now, other than "Everybody knows" and/or "I heard on Fox News, Hannity, or
Limbaugh" what facts can you cite that support your allegation that thousands
of angry protestors surrounded the troops and pelted them with rocks and
bottles?

Those innocent kids exercising their First Amendment Rights don't deserve to
have their memories villified, especially when there isn't a shred of evidence
supporting the wild allegation.

A real man would apologize for such a slanderous error.

Has Hannity or Limbaugh discussed this recently? You must listen to them a lot
more than I, Chuck, as I don't recall anything about this matter. Of course, I
focus a lot more on Mr Colmes.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

"John H" wrote in message
...


Has Hannity or Limbaugh discussed this recently? You must listen to them a
lot
more than I, Chuck, as I don't recall anything about this matter. Of
course, I
focus a lot more on Mr Colmes.

John, I have to tell you something. Sit down. This is serious.

Are you ready?

Really ready?

You are a corpse.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...



Has Hannity or Limbaugh discussed this recently? You must listen to them a

lot

more than I, Chuck, as I don't recall anything about this matter. Of

course, I

focus a lot more on Mr Colmes.


John, I have to tell you something. Sit down. This is serious.

Are you ready?

Really ready?

You are a corpse.



He kinda resembles one, in person.

Harry, would your wife, the social worker, think that is a nice thing to
say?


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...



Has Hannity or Limbaugh discussed this recently? You must listen to them
a

lot

more than I, Chuck, as I don't recall anything about this matter. Of

course, I

focus a lot more on Mr Colmes.


John, I have to tell you something. Sit down. This is serious.

Are you ready?

Really ready?

You are a corpse.



He kinda resembles one, in person.

On 23 Apr 2004 00:26:11 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles?

Oh, Christ!!!
Some things cannot be left unchallenged.
Aplogies in advance to all:

No apologies necessary. Harry needs all the help he can get now. His credibility
seems to have taken a big hit.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

No apologies necessary. Harry needs all the help he can get now. His
credibility
seems to have taken a big hit.

John H

I'm not standing up for Harry. He makes his own bed here, and enjoys the abuse.

I'm protesting the vile, hateful, inaccurate misrepresentation of a tragic
incident.
Most National Guardsmen would have never shot into a crowd of protestors, but
some did. Trying after all these years to characterize the tragedy as a case of
the Guardsmen acting in self defense is pure
BS.

Hell, even the NIXON administration concluded the shootings were "inexcusable".
Is Nixon suddenly too liberal for our politically conservative sect?

Gould,

You need to take a long breath and calm down, tell me where I used any vile
or hateful words in my discussion of the Kent State tragedy? When did I say
the Guardsman were acting in self defense? I said a bunch of scared kids
made a tragic mistake. that is not vile, hateful or inaccurate.



I'm protesting the vile, hateful, inaccurate misrepresentation of a tragic
incident.
Most National Guardsmen would have never shot into a crowd of protestors,
but
some did. Trying after all these years to characterize the tragedy as a
case of
the Guardsmen acting in self defense is pure
BS.

Hell, even the NIXON administration concluded the shootings were
"inexcusable".
Is Nixon suddenly too liberal for our politically conservative sect?

Gould,

You need to take a long breath and calm down, tell me where I used any vile
or hateful words in my discussion of the Kent State tragedy? When did I say
the Guardsman were acting in self defense? I said a bunch of scared

kids
made a tragic mistake. that is not vile, hateful or inaccurate.


Your exact words we
*
Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles? Unfortunately a
small group of the guardsmen feeling in danger of their life, freaked out
and shot into the crowd trying to disperse the angry students.

*
There are no "vile words" in the paragraph, only a vile distortion of the
truth. The statement "surrounded by 1000's of angry protestors throwing rocks
and bottles" is by no means ambivalent, nor is it open to
subjective intepretation. You have stated there were at least 2 x 1000
protestors, surrounding the guardsmen, and throwing rocks and bottles.

The statement is hateful in that it dismisses an entire class of people (the
protestors) based solely upon the isolated actions of a very few. Thousands of
protestors throwing rocks and bottles is a far different scenario from one or
two people in a generally peaceful crowd throwing a rock, or a bottle, or even
tossing a fuming gas cannister back at the
cops. (That was SOP in the 60's. had to happen 1000 times in the space of a few
years, and nobody else felt that it required
shooting Americans for exercising their first amendment rights).

It would be equally hateful for one of my liberal brothers to say, "The KKK
lynched a guy down in Alabama, and thousands of local conservatives turned out
to cheer that justice had been done." Maybe *a* conservative turned out to
cheer......but exaggerating the number for effect or to distort reality would
be a hateful act placing political rhetoric above any attempt to live
harmoniously with folks holding different opinions.

You implied the Guardsmen were acting in self defense when you stated they were
surrounded by thousands of rock and bottle throwing protestors. Any reasonable
person would agree, that had thousands of
protestors surrounded the squad and proceded to pelt it with rocks and bottles
some sort of response would be justified in self defense. *If*. But that's not
the way it happened.

I appreciate that you have acknowledged your mischaracterization of the events
at Kent State. As I said, a real man would do so- so congrats. :-)

Sorry if I reacted strongly. There's still a scab on a few wounds from that
era. If you lived through it, you can understand why so many people are nervous
about the current tone the divisive rhetoric is taking in America at this time.
A busted country is serious schlitz, and extremist positions
from either side saying "it's my way or the highway", "you either support the
president or you're a traitor", or "conservatives all think money is more
important than life or justice" won't do.
The situation is different now that it was this time last year. We are more
polarized. The country is ready to come apart.

Now, about that "armed FBI informant" that the Guard Commander mentioned in the
letter to the senator......coupled with the tough talk from the governor the
night before I suspect the FBI was hoping to incite just the sort of incident
that developed. "We'll show these liberal traitors that it doesn't pay to
question the president!" Kent State helped galvanize opposition to Nixon and
to the war in Viet Nam, so I guess somebody showed somebody something.

We're lucky there weren't a lot more incidents of this kind. I can tell you for
a fact that during some anti-war protests
in Seattle at that time, the FBI had snipers
on rooftops. Just in case, apparently. (My father had a job at that time that
required him to provide the FBI access to the roof of some publicly owned
buildings.)

As two antogonists say at signoff.....

"peace be upon you"

and

"peace on you too" :-)