As violence erupts and security remains elusive, more American allies are
signaling their concerns about the situation in Iraq. Following this week's
removal of Spanish, Honduran and Dominican troops, Britain announced it
would not send additional
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...22/wbasra322.x
ml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/22/ixnewstop.html) troops and Poland started to
show
(http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsA...2b93e2d2efb?ty
pe=worldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4895634) cracks in its commitment.
Reconstruction efforts are being suspended, and the administration is left
to flip-flop on policy, with no solid strategy in place. (Stunningly, in the
past two weeks, the only measure the White House has taken to prepare
(http://www.americanprogress.org/site...RJ8OVF&b=44603) for the
transfer of power on June 30 is the controversial naming of John Negroponte
to be Ambassador.) Meanwhile, the pressure on U.S. troops is increasing as
the highly-touted
(http://www.americanprogress.org/site...RJ8OVF&b=11300) Iraqi
security forces are not yet performing as promised
(http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...ces-quit_x.htm)
: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually worked
against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."

Jim wrote in message
...

: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually
worked
against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."

This can't be! I remember all those army press releases John H. produced,
saying how well things were going and making much of the graduating classes.
What happened!
Could the army pr people be wrong?

On Thursday 22 April 2004 7:47 pm in rec.boats Jim wrote:


As violence erupts and security remains elusive, more American allies are

Will you PLEASE just **** off and die.

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS

X-Complaints-To:
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--
My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com
WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently
deleted. Send only plain text.

"Don White" wrote in message
...

Jim wrote in message
...

: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually
worked
against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."

This can't be! I remember all those army press releases John H. produced,
saying how well things were going and making much of the graduating
classes.
What happened!
Could the army pr people be wrong?

NPR interviewed a bunch of Iraqi guys applying for jobs with the security
force last week. They said the overwhelming majority were applying for the
worst reason of all: They needed jobs. The people interviewed also said
they'd never fire on their own people, which is exactly what they're being
hired to do.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

Jim wrote in message
...

: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually

worked

against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."


This can't be! I remember all those army press releases John H. produced,
saying how well things were going and making much of the graduating

classes.

What happened!
Could the army pr people be wrong?


NPR interviewed a bunch of Iraqi guys applying for jobs with the security
force last week. They said the overwhelming majority were applying for the
worst reason of all: They needed jobs. The people interviewed also said
they'd never fire on their own people, which is exactly what they're being
hired to do.



Not firing on their own people, of course, puts them a step up on the
humanity scale compared to those wonderful Ohio national guardsmen who
shot up a bunch of students at Kent State.

Don White wrote:

Jim wrote in message
...

: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually

worked

against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."


This can't be! I remember all those army press releases John H. produced,
saying how well things were going and making much of the graduating classes.
What happened!
Could the army pr people be wrong?



John simply is playing the same lying, deceitful game the Pentagon
played during its Vietnam fiasco. he hopes by spreading meaningless
flackery, he can help obfuscate the disaster that has become Bush's
policy in Iraq. It's just lying by another name. He probably got used to
it during his days in the military.

Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles? Unfortunately a
small group of the guardsmen feeling in danger of their life, freaked out
and shot into the crowd trying to disperse the angry students.

You should not be angry at the guardsmen, you should be upset at LBJ who
sent young Americans to an war that we could never win. If LBJ had not
escalated the war, the protestors would not have threaten the guardsmen, and
the guardsmen would have been home with their family.

You do seem to make a habit of placing the blame on the wrong people.









"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

Jim wrote in message
...

: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually

worked

against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."


This can't be! I remember all those army press releases John H.
produced,
saying how well things were going and making much of the graduating

classes.

What happened!
Could the army pr people be wrong?


NPR interviewed a bunch of Iraqi guys applying for jobs with the
security
force last week. They said the overwhelming majority were applying for
the
worst reason of all: They needed jobs. The people interviewed also said
they'd never fire on their own people, which is exactly what they're
being
hired to do.



Not firing on their own people, of course, puts them a step up on the
humanity scale compared to those wonderful Ohio national guardsmen who
shot up a bunch of students at Kent State.

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:49:37 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Don White wrote:

Jim wrote in message
...

: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually

worked

against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."


This can't be! I remember all those army press releases John H. produced,
saying how well things were going and making much of the graduating classes.
What happened!
Could the army pr people be wrong?



John simply is playing the same lying, deceitful game the Pentagon
played during its Vietnam fiasco. he hopes by spreading meaningless
flackery, he can help obfuscate the disaster that has become Bush's
policy in Iraq. It's just lying by another name. He probably got used to
it during his days in the military.


Speaking of good news. Luckily the defeatist attitude doesn't live in the US
Marine Corps.



Marines pin hopes on new Iraqi police
Submitted by: 1st Marine Division
Story Identification Number: 200441811215
Story by Lance Cpl. Macario P. Mora Jr.



CAMP AL QAIM, Iraq(April 14, 2004) -- They're a little rough around the edges.
They're still learning how to walk, talk and perform as the law of the land.

For Marines here, though, the newly-graduated police force in this western Iraqi
city is the hope for a better future here.

"The fate of this nation depends on its ability to take care of itself," said
1st Lt. Sean M. Gavigan, officer-in-charge of the Al Qaim Police Academy. "Its
security forces need to know how to defend (Iraq) against those who oppose it.
If not, we will fail."

A class of nearly 40 Iraqi police graduated April 17th from the academy's first
class after completing a 21-day course.

The academy is the first of its kind in the Al Qaim area, which covers a large
portion of the western border of Iraq.

Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment's military police detachment
were tasked to train the policemen. Eight instructors were picked to teach
procedures needed to police the streets, which is no small task on this border
town.

Enemy fighters trying to take control killed nearly 640 Iraqi policemen during
the past year, according to Gavigan, who hails from New City, N.Y.

"These guys are public enemy number one," Gavigan said. "Without the proper
tools and knowledge they're going to be slaughtered. We all want to go home, but
that's not going to happen unless these guys can take care of themselves."

The three-week learning curve for the new policemen was enormous, according to
Cpl. Michael A. Melfi, an instructor and from Columbus, Ohio.

"These guys couldn't even use their weapons when we first started with them,"
Melfi said. "They have come a long way in a short amount of time."

Being the first class, Marine and their students forged through hardships and
difficulties with establishing the academy and training course.

"One of the major difficulties is the language barrier," said Gunnery Sgt. Jamie
P. Roberto, chief instructor from Cincinnati. "So much is lost in translation.
But, they're giving 'max' effort and my instructors are doing a hell of a job.
So, it'll happen, eventually."

The class started with 50 students and slowly shrunk down to 40. Marines
training the police were tough on their students. Some served previously in
Iraqi law enforcement. Still, others didn't make it.

"These guys were already policemen," Roberto explained, "If they weren't able to
hack it, well... then they were kicked out."

According to Melfi, the process was difficult at times.

"We weeded out a lot of the bad guys," Melfi said.

Marines were tasked with more than just training quality policemen. They were
given the awesome task of creating a functional police force.

"There was no administrative office," Roberto said. "We didn't know why a guy
was promoted or when. No one was accountable for who came to work or any of
that."

They were also given a shell of a building to turn into an academy. The class
that recently graduated had to travel from their homes every day to attend the
training. The next go around, though, will be different.

"The next class will be a live-in one," Roberto said. "We'll have 100 fresh
recruits, and it will be a live-in academy then."

Another instructor, Lance Cpl. Jeffery G. Mussman, also from Columbus, Ohio,
said things were looking bright.

"We noticed a lot of flaws with the original training plan," Mussman said. "So
we added a whole section on close combat. We also added more days to their
field-fire time."

Things are getting better though.

"It's a start," Roberto said. "We're using the crawl, walk, run method. If
anything, they will be better off than before."

"It starts with these guys," Gavigan added. "Whether we succeed will depend on
guys like these. We're hoping they can influence the rest out there."


John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:49:37 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Don White wrote:

Jim wrote in message
...

: "About one in every 10 members of Iraq's security forces 'actually

worked

against' U.S. troops during the recent militia violence in Iraq, and an
additional 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation."


This can't be! I remember all those army press releases John H. produced,
saying how well things were going and making much of the graduating classes.
What happened!
Could the army pr people be wrong?



John simply is playing the same lying, deceitful game the Pentagon
played during its Vietnam fiasco. he hopes by spreading meaningless
flackery, he can help obfuscate the disaster that has become Bush's
policy in Iraq. It's just lying by another name. He probably got used to
it during his days in the military.

Oh yeah, is it Doctor Doctor, or just Doctor, or just LSW (speaking of lies).
John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles?

Oh, Christ!!!
Some things cannot be left unchallenged.
Aplogies in advance to all:

No. Harry is not talking about a group of scared kids "surrounded by 1000's of
anger (sic) protestors throwing rocks and bottles"

Shut off the Limbaugh show and do some acutal research on Kent State. Think it
might be signfiicant that not a *single* guardsman was injured? Those thousands
of protestors with rocks and bottles must have all been lousy shots. If not,
thousands of peope throwing rocks would have simply killed off the entire squad
on the spot. The shooters were initially separated from the crowd by the brow
of a hill, and had to
crest that hill in order to open fire. You must be very young.
Here are a few incidents related to Kent State and its aftermath to help you
begin your liberation from propanganda and set you upon your quest for truth.

May 3 Ohio Governor James A. Rhodes personally appears on campus and promises
to use "every force possible" to maintain order. Rhodes denounces the
protesters as worse than brownshirts and vows to keep the Guard in Kent "until
we get rid of them."

May 4 Four students are killed and nine others are wounded when a contingent of
Guardsmen suddenly opens fire during a noontime demonstration.

July 23 Key portions of a secret Justice Department memo are disclosed by the
Akron Beacon Journal. The memorandum describes the shootings as unnecessary and
urges the Portage County Prosecutor to file criminal charges against six
Guardsmen.

October 4 The President's Commission on Campus Unrest concludes: "The actions
of some students were violent and criminal and some others were dangerous,
reckless, and irresponsible." The shootings are branded as "unnecessary,
unwarranted, and inexcusable."

October 16 The "special" state grand jury exonerates the Guardsmen, but indicts
25 individuals, mostly students, for a variety of offenses that occurred on
campus before the shootings.

Late October-November Demands for a federal grand jury mount after it is
revealed that the "special" state grand jury ignored key evidence and that one
of the "special" prosecutors told a newsman he felt the Guardsmen should have
shot more students.

Following year:

The "special" state grand jury is even further discredited when Ohio officials
dismiss charges against 20 of the 25 individuals indicted by the grand jury.
Ohio prosecutors claimed they had insufficient evidence to convict any
protesters.

1973:

May 10 In a meeting with the student petitioners, K. William O'Connor, a
high-level Justice Department official, admits that the Justice Department
already has sufficient evidence to prosecute six Guardsmen.


A bit of truth leaks out:

August 3 Assistant Attorney General J. Stanley Pottinger announces that the
Justice Department will officially conduct a new inquiry. Senator Birch Bayh
follows Pottinger's announcement by releasing a letter he received from one of
the Guard's company commanders. On the basis of that letter Bayh charges that
armed FBI informant Terry Norman may have been "the fatal catalyst" for the
tragedy.

NOTE: That letter was from one of the Guard's own company commanders, not some
left wing apologist.

1974:

October 7-17 Attorneys for James A. Rhodes unsuccessfully try to block the
release of Rhodes's deposition in the civil case until after the Ohio
gubernatorial election. The deposition reveals that Rhodes's attorney, in a
move reminiscent of the Watergate cover-up, offered into evidence an incomplete
transcript of Rhodes's May 3, 1970, press conference. Among the remarks deleted
was a comment by an official that the Guard would resort to shooting if
necessary.


Etc, etc, etc,


Now, other than "Everybody knows" and/or "I heard on Fox News, Hannity, or
Limbaugh" what facts can you cite that support your allegation that thousands
of angry protestors surrounded the troops and pelted them with rocks and
bottles?

Those innocent kids exercising their First Amendment Rights don't deserve to
have their memories villified, especially when there isn't a shred of evidence
supporting the wild allegation.

A real man would apologize for such a slanderous error.