( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

Gould,

You need to take a long breath and calm down, tell me where I used any vile
or hateful words in my discussion of the Kent State tragedy? When did I say
the Guardsman were acting in self defense? I said a bunch of scared kids
made a tragic mistake. that is not vile, hateful or inaccurate.



I'm protesting the vile, hateful, inaccurate misrepresentation of a tragic
incident.
Most National Guardsmen would have never shot into a crowd of protestors,
but
some did. Trying after all these years to characterize the tragedy as a
case of
the Guardsmen acting in self defense is pure
BS.

Hell, even the NIXON administration concluded the shootings were
"inexcusable".
Is Nixon suddenly too liberal for our politically conservative sect?

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

John Smith wrote:
I don't listen to Rush, Fox News, or Hannity. Below I have copied the order
of events from the Kent May 4 Center www.may4.org. A web site to
remember those killed at Ohio State, so hopefully it will not happen again.

I can't imagine many 18 - 21 yr old soldiers who would not be scared to
death. If you saw pictures of the students yelling at the guardsmen and the
guardsman faces you would agree they were very scared.

How about the pictures of kids putting flowers in the Guardsmen's
rifles? That must have been scary too.

Yelling is not the same as shooting. When a man yells at you, you are
not allowed to shoot him in self-defense. There were rocks thrown, and
some of the students threw back tear gas cannisters (which fell short)
fired at them. Basically, the crowd of protestors was dispersing when
the Guardsmen opened fire. IMHO it was murder.

Thanks for posting the quote from the may4.org web site. It corresponds
pretty well with what I remember, except that some of the student
leaders later apologized for attacking the firemen and the court
decision that the soldiers were "ordered" to fire was widely considered
a whitewash since the "order" was given by "person or persons unknown."

BTW please note that this factual account does not ever once mention the
students surrounding the soldiers. Please acknowledge this error in your
earlier post.

DSK

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

You are correct, my use of the word surround was inaccurate. They were
facing them. Do you think the guardsman were not aware that the students
had attacked the fireman for trying to put out the fire the students had
started? I know that would scare the hell out of me.

It was a scary situation for most of the guardsman, and most of the students
at Kent State.

I have never said the Guardsman were justified in firing their guns, I said
it was done by young kids (who enlisted into the National Guard as a way to
get out going to Viet Nam). They were faced with a situation they were not
qualified to handle and were scared to death. As Gould pointed out, if the
students wanted to, they could have overwhelmed the National Guard..

If you believe the National Guard fired on the students because they
disagreed with the students position on the war, and decided to murder them,
there is not much for me to say.

My guess is everyone involved in this tragedy have nightmares about it


"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
John Smith wrote:
I don't listen to Rush, Fox News, or Hannity. Below I have copied the
order
of events from the Kent May 4 Center www.may4.org. A web site to
remember those killed at Ohio State, so hopefully it will not happen
again.

I can't imagine many 18 - 21 yr old soldiers who would not be scared to
death. If you saw pictures of the students yelling at the guardsmen and
the
guardsman faces you would agree they were very scared.

How about the pictures of kids putting flowers in the Guardsmen's
rifles? That must have been scary too.

Yelling is not the same as shooting. When a man yells at you, you are
not allowed to shoot him in self-defense. There were rocks thrown, and
some of the students threw back tear gas cannisters (which fell short)
fired at them. Basically, the crowd of protestors was dispersing when
the Guardsmen opened fire. IMHO it was murder.

Thanks for posting the quote from the may4.org web site. It corresponds
pretty well with what I remember, except that some of the student
leaders later apologized for attacking the firemen and the court
decision that the soldiers were "ordered" to fire was widely considered
a whitewash since the "order" was given by "person or persons unknown."

BTW please note that this factual account does not ever once mention the
students surrounding the soldiers. Please acknowledge this error in your
earlier post.

DSK

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...



Has Hannity or Limbaugh discussed this recently? You must listen to them a

lot

more than I, Chuck, as I don't recall anything about this matter. Of

course, I

focus a lot more on Mr Colmes. :)


John, I have to tell you something. Sit down. This is serious.

Are you ready?

Really ready?

You are a corpse.



He kinda resembles one, in person.

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

Harry, would your wife, the social worker, think that is a nice thing to
say?


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...



Has Hannity or Limbaugh discussed this recently? You must listen to them
a

lot

more than I, Chuck, as I don't recall anything about this matter. Of

course, I

focus a lot more on Mr Colmes. :)


John, I have to tell you something. Sit down. This is serious.

Are you ready?

Really ready?

You are a corpse.



He kinda resembles one, in person.

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Sp%hc.5114$cF6.275326@attbi_s04...

I said
it was done by young kids (who enlisted into the National Guard as a way
to
get out going to Viet Nam).

Heh...sort of like our current president.

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:IH_hc.5114$YP5.506831@attbi_s02...
Doug,

Do you have a problem comprehending English? I said LBJ "escalated the
war.

As far as your other comment about Truman, Truman did provide financial
assistance to the French and provided a few military advisors (35 in 1950)
to help train the Vietnamese troops, but it was the French-Indochina War
until May, 1954. Truman's presidency ended before the French had withdrawn
from Vietnam.

Please turn on the lights.

Truman authorized the OSS to "stick around", rather than leave Indochina, as
we called it then.

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

Gould,

You need to take a long breath and calm down, tell me where I used any vile
or hateful words in my discussion of the Kent State tragedy? When did I say
the Guardsman were acting in self defense? I said a bunch of scared

kids
made a tragic mistake. that is not vile, hateful or inaccurate.


Your exact words we
*
Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles? Unfortunately a
small group of the guardsmen feeling in danger of their life, freaked out
and shot into the crowd trying to disperse the angry students.

*
There are no "vile words" in the paragraph, only a vile distortion of the
truth. The statement "surrounded by 1000's of angry protestors throwing rocks
and bottles" is by no means ambivalent, nor is it open to
subjective intepretation. You have stated there were at least 2 x 1000
protestors, surrounding the guardsmen, and throwing rocks and bottles.

The statement is hateful in that it dismisses an entire class of people (the
protestors) based solely upon the isolated actions of a very few. Thousands of
protestors throwing rocks and bottles is a far different scenario from one or
two people in a generally peaceful crowd throwing a rock, or a bottle, or even
tossing a fuming gas cannister back at the
cops. (That was SOP in the 60's. had to happen 1000 times in the space of a few
years, and nobody else felt that it required
shooting Americans for exercising their first amendment rights).

It would be equally hateful for one of my liberal brothers to say, "The KKK
lynched a guy down in Alabama, and thousands of local conservatives turned out
to cheer that justice had been done." Maybe *a* conservative turned out to
cheer......but exaggerating the number for effect or to distort reality would
be a hateful act placing political rhetoric above any attempt to live
harmoniously with folks holding different opinions.

You implied the Guardsmen were acting in self defense when you stated they were
surrounded by thousands of rock and bottle throwing protestors. Any reasonable
person would agree, that had thousands of
protestors surrounded the squad and proceded to pelt it with rocks and bottles
some sort of response would be justified in self defense. *If*. But that's not
the way it happened.

I appreciate that you have acknowledged your mischaracterization of the events
at Kent State. As I said, a real man would do so- so congrats. :-)

Sorry if I reacted strongly. There's still a scab on a few wounds from that
era. If you lived through it, you can understand why so many people are nervous
about the current tone the divisive rhetoric is taking in America at this time.
A busted country is serious schlitz, and extremist positions
from either side saying "it's my way or the highway", "you either support the
president or you're a traitor", or "conservatives all think money is more
important than life or justice" won't do.
The situation is different now that it was this time last year. We are more
polarized. The country is ready to come apart.

Now, about that "armed FBI informant" that the Guard Commander mentioned in the
letter to the senator......coupled with the tough talk from the governor the
night before I suspect the FBI was hoping to incite just the sort of incident
that developed. "We'll show these liberal traitors that it doesn't pay to
question the president!" Kent State helped galvanize opposition to Nixon and
to the war in Viet Nam, so I guess somebody showed somebody something.

We're lucky there weren't a lot more incidents of this kind. I can tell you for
a fact that during some anti-war protests
in Seattle at that time, the FBI had snipers
on rooftops. Just in case, apparently. (My father had a job at that time that
required him to provide the FBI access to the roof of some publicly owned
buildings.)

As two antogonists say at signoff.....

"peace be upon you"

and

"peace on you too" :-)

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

Doug,
Please turn on the lights, my statement was LBJ escalated the war, which
part of that statement do you disagree with?

You and Bass both have a problem comprehending English.

PS - Do you agree with Bass that grain alcohol is whiskey?




"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:IH_hc.5114$YP5.506831@attbi_s02...
Doug,

Do you have a problem comprehending English? I said LBJ "escalated the
war.

As far as your other comment about Truman, Truman did provide financial
assistance to the French and provided a few military advisors (35 in
1950)
to help train the Vietnamese troops, but it was the French-Indochina War
until May, 1954. Truman's presidency ended before the French had
withdrawn
from Vietnam.

Please turn on the lights.

Truman authorized the OSS to "stick around", rather than leave Indochina,
as
we called it then.

( OT ) In Search Of A Plan
 

Gould,

Your interpretation of my post in no way reflects what I intended to convey.
I definitely did not intend to distort he truth. There were 1000's of
students. Some students were throwing rocks and bottles, many were yelling
at the Guardsmen. By no stretch of the imagination was this a peaceful
demonstration.

I must be a real wuss, if I was facing 1000's of students right after a
crowd of students had burned down the ROTC building, and attacked the
firemen who arrived to put out the fire, I would have been very scared.

The May 4 web site, conveyed to me, that this was a extremely tense
situation for all involved.

What I have a hard time believing is that any of the Guardsman fired on the
students because they were conducting an antiwar protest.

May 4. was tragic. Kent State and the Vietnam War are very sensitive to
anyone alive during this period. For Don said the Guardsman murdered the
students, that is as vile and as asinine as the protestors who called the
returning Vietnam soldiers "baby killers".


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Gould,

You need to take a long breath and calm down, tell me where I used any
vile
or hateful words in my discussion of the Kent State tragedy? When did I
say
the Guardsman were acting in self defense? I said a bunch of scared

kids
made a tragic mistake. that is not vile, hateful or inaccurate.


Your exact words we
*
Harry are you talking about those bunch of scared kids who were surrounded
by 1000's of anger protestor throwing rocks and bottles? Unfortunately a
small group of the guardsmen feeling in danger of their life, freaked out
and shot into the crowd trying to disperse the angry students.

*
There are no "vile words" in the paragraph, only a vile distortion of the
truth. The statement "surrounded by 1000's of angry protestors throwing
rocks
and bottles" is by no means ambivalent, nor is it open to
subjective intepretation. You have stated there were at least 2 x 1000
protestors, surrounding the guardsmen, and throwing rocks and bottles.

The statement is hateful in that it dismisses an entire class of people
(the
protestors) based solely upon the isolated actions of a very few.
Thousands of
protestors throwing rocks and bottles is a far different scenario from one
or
two people in a generally peaceful crowd throwing a rock, or a bottle, or
even
tossing a fuming gas cannister back at the
cops. (That was SOP in the 60's. had to happen 1000 times in the space of
a few
years, and nobody else felt that it required
shooting Americans for exercising their first amendment rights).

It would be equally hateful for one of my liberal brothers to say, "The
KKK
lynched a guy down in Alabama, and thousands of local conservatives turned
out
to cheer that justice had been done." Maybe *a* conservative turned out to
cheer......but exaggerating the number for effect or to distort reality
would
be a hateful act placing political rhetoric above any attempt to live
harmoniously with folks holding different opinions.

You implied the Guardsmen were acting in self defense when you stated they
were
surrounded by thousands of rock and bottle throwing protestors. Any
reasonable
person would agree, that had thousands of
protestors surrounded the squad and proceded to pelt it with rocks and
bottles
some sort of response would be justified in self defense. *If*. But that's
not
the way it happened.

I appreciate that you have acknowledged your mischaracterization of the
events
at Kent State. As I said, a real man would do so- so congrats. :-)

Sorry if I reacted strongly. There's still a scab on a few wounds from
that
era. If you lived through it, you can understand why so many people are
nervous
about the current tone the divisive rhetoric is taking in America at this
time.
A busted country is serious schlitz, and extremist positions
from either side saying "it's my way or the highway", "you either support
the
president or you're a traitor", or "conservatives all think money is more
important than life or justice" won't do.
The situation is different now that it was this time last year. We are
more
polarized. The country is ready to come apart.

Now, about that "armed FBI informant" that the Guard Commander mentioned
in the
letter to the senator......coupled with the tough talk from the governor
the
night before I suspect the FBI was hoping to incite just the sort of
incident
that developed. "We'll show these liberal traitors that it doesn't pay to
question the president!" Kent State helped galvanize opposition to Nixon
and
to the war in Viet Nam, so I guess somebody showed somebody something.

We're lucky there weren't a lot more incidents of this kind. I can tell
you for
a fact that during some anti-war protests
in Seattle at that time, the FBI had snipers
on rooftops. Just in case, apparently. (My father had a job at that time
that
required him to provide the FBI access to the roof of some publicly owned
buildings.)

As two antogonists say at signoff.....

"peace be upon you"

and

"peace on you too" :-)