On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:26:28 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
Well, sometimes it's a partial deck above a ship's main afterdeck. But
sometimes it's not. :-)

Nope..ALWAYS a raised afterdeck, high enough to prevent taking on water
over the stern that could, in a heavy following sea, swamp the boat and
even sink it...a condition--as you correctly noted--from the Latin,
referred to as being "pooped." Hence the name "poop deck" for a RAISED
afterdeck.

I think you have it backwards. Puppis to poop
deck, thence pooped. The OED finds the use
of poop (actually pouppe) for the stern of a
ship as early as 1489, but not until 1748 does
someone use the word, in an account of a ship's
voyage, to mean hit by a large following sea.
The OED is not clear as to when it was first
used as a modifier of deck, but I see citations
that clearly predate 1748.

Peter W. Meek wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:26:28 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:


Doug Kanter wrote:

Well, sometimes it's a partial deck above a ship's main
afterdeck. But sometimes it's not. :-)

Nope..ALWAYS a raised afterdeck, high enough to prevent taking on
water over the stern that could, in a heavy following sea, swamp
the boat and even sink it...a condition--as you correctly
noted--from the Latin, referred to as being "pooped." Hence the
name "poop deck" for a RAISED afterdeck.


I think you have it backwards. Puppis to poop deck, thence pooped.
The OED finds the use of poop (actually pouppe) for the stern of a
ship as early as 1489, but not until 1748 does someone use the word,
in an account of a ship's voyage, to mean hit by a large following
sea. The OED is not clear as to when it was first used as a modifier
of deck, but I see citations that clearly predate 1748.

The first account in English perhaps, but that doesn't necessarily make
it the first account to use a derivation of the word to describe the
event in any Latin-based language...Common use nomenclature often
emerges much later than the design or device it refers to, and is often
derived from another language, so you'd have to research French and
Spanish accounts of voyages too, to know when any derivation of the
Latin word "pouppe" to describe an event was used.

The real question is whether ALL ships' sterns were called pouppe, or
only raised sterns...or whether all oceangoing ships' sterns originally
had raised afterdecks or a high stern to keep a following sea out. Most
did, as far back as the Vikings and even the Oriental middle eastern
trading vessels that pre-date the Viking explorations by quite a few
centuries. Most of their vessels would be called "canoe" hulls today, so
"afterdeck" or "transom" may not be the appropriate term for the aft end
of those vessels...but many were even higher in the stern than in the bow.

The history of shipbuilding and seafaring is fascinatin' stuff!

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_rid_of_boat_odors.htm

K. Smith wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:



Gary Warner wrote:

Ok, in another thread a question I always have
came up. Someone was helpful and corrected me
from "gunnel" to "gunwhale".

So, what IS a gunwhale?

Here is a definition I found googeling:
The name (pronounced GUN'L) given to the uppermost line of planking of a
boat's sides. In the old ships the upper tier of guns used to fire
over the
top planking which was therefore specially strengthened by "whales".

So, lets say on my boat. Which of the following is the gunwhale
and what is the other one called??

A) It's a lapstrake hull. So each next higher "plank" overlaps the
one below it. At the top of the side of the hull the last plank is
basically
perpendicular to the floor / water.



This would be the Sheer strake


B) Then, at a 90 degree angle to that last "plank" there is another
part of
the
boat. That part is about 8" wide. It' where one could step with one
foot
while boarding the boat.



G I'd just call that a deck


Are these both part of the gunwhale?



In a way, yes. The gunwale would be the "line" where the two meet.
Possibly a better way to visualize it would be to look at a rowboat or
canoe ... that upper line of the hull from bow to stern would be the
gun'l.

otn


What's a proper or descriptive term for B? I've been calling it
the "upper side deck" (as opposed to the decking on the bow or
the decking on the stern).


I know it seems like a silly question but....

Thanks,
Gary




A waling is a horizontal structural member, lots of structures refer
to the horizontals as walings, mostly marine but some landbased & most
horizontals below the decking on wharves are still referred to as walings.

In olden ships the gun decks (where the cannon lived) had "walings"
(usually with ports to shoot through or oops:-) & they were mostly
towards the upper freeboard, hence it was actually the gun wales.

Now pretty much gun'l

K


From the OED:

f. gun n. + wale, the gunwale having formerly served to support the guns
(cf. quot. 1697 in b). The usual spelling is still gunwale, though the
pronunciation ("gVnweIl) is, at least in Great Britain, never used by
persons acquainted with nautical or boating matters.]
The upper edge of a ship's side; in large vessels, the uppermost
planking, which covers the timber-heads and reaches from the
quarter-deck to the forecastle on either side; in small craft, a piece
of timber extending round the top side of the hull.
a 1466 Mann. & Househ. Exp. (Roxb.) 205 For tymbre for colers of the
maste, and gonne walles, xx. d. 1626 Capt. Smith Accid. Yng. Sea-men 11
The wayst-boords, the gunwayle, stations for the nettings. 1627 I
Seaman's Gram. ii. 6 The sides and Deckes are wrought till you come at
the Gunwaile, which is the vpmost waile. 1727 A. Hamilton New Acc. E.
Ind. II. xlv. 147 The Assailants+when they got as high as the Gun-wall
or Gunnel, were at a Loss how to get over the Netting. 1800 Capt. Milne
in Naval Chron. IV. 421 Brass swivels on the gunwhale. 1833 Marryat P.
Simple (1863) 325 She+proved to be a brigantine laden up to her gunwale,
which was not above a foot out of the water. 1865 Livingstone Zambesi
xvi. 329 Our canoes were not a foot above the water at the gunwales.
1868 C. M. Yonge Cameos (1877) I. vi. 41 Horses were led into the ships,
the shields hung round the gunwale, and the warriors crowded in. 1875
Bedford Sailor's Pocket Bk. vi. (ed. 2) 226 Cutters and pinnaces should
have from 6 to 8 inches added to their gunwale forward. 1880 Dixon
Windsor III. iii. 25 More than once her gunwale had been under water.
1773 Cook 1st Voy. ii. x. (1842) I. 194 The gun~wale boards
were+frequently carved in a grotesque taste. 1697 W. Dampier Voy.
(1729) I. 400 A very pretty neat Vessel+had about 40 men all armed+and
some guns, that went with a Swivel upon their Gunnal. 1699 Ibid. III.
14 The first [ropes] going athwart from Gunnal to Gunnal. 1719 De Foe
Crusoe i. xvi. (1840) 287 Friday+set him down softly upon the side or
gunnel of the Canoe. 1757 Robertson in Phil. Trans. L. 34 As he was
stepping on the gunnel, he fell over-board. 1833 Marryat P. Simple
(1863) 103 The wind had caught the sails; and the ship+careened over to
her gunnel with its force. 1834 Medwin Angler in Wales II. 23, I was
never tired (when I leaned over the gunnel of the boat) in watching the
fish. 1878 N. Amer. Rev. CXXVII. 384 Mitrailleuses and field-pieces
were mounted on the gunnels. 1693 R. Lyde Retaking ‘Friend's Adv.’ 22,
I kept up the Topsail, till at last the Wind in the Showers did put the
Gunhil of the Ship in the Water. 1711 in A. Duncan Mariner's Chron.
(1805) III. 292 Cutting away the vessel's gunhill.

b. Phrases. gunwale to (rarely †in): with the gunwale on a level
with the water; also transf. gunwale under: with the gunwale submerged.
[1717 tr. Frezier's Voy. S. Sea 34 With such dreadful+Gusts, that
they brought the Gunwale to, under two Courses reef'd.] 1748 Anson's
Voy. i. viii. 77 The ship rolling incessantly gunwale to. 1751 Smollett
Per. Pic. (1779) IV. civ. 339 He rolled himself almost gunwale to, at
every motion of his horse. 1769 Falconer Dict. Marine (1780) Ddd4,
Gunnel-in, or gunnel-to. 1830 Marryat King's Own liii, She rolled
gunwale under. 1833 M. Scott Tom Cringle (1862) 260 We continued to
roll gunwale under, dipping the main yardarm into the water every now
and then. 1873 G. C. Davies Mount. & Mere xvi. 141 She shot across
gunwale under.

c. transf. The top plank of a hoarding.
1865 Kingsley Herew. II. ix. 150 At last one scaling ladder was
planted upon the bodies of the dead, and hooked firmly on the gunwale of
the hoarding.

otnmbrd wrote:


Gary Warner wrote:

Ok, in another thread a question I always have
came up. Someone was helpful and corrected me
from "gunnel" to "gunwhale".

So, what IS a gunwhale?

Here is a definition I found googeling:
The name (pronounced GUN'L) given to the uppermost line of planking of a
boat's sides. In the old ships the upper tier of guns used to fire
over the
top planking which was therefore specially strengthened by "whales".

So, lets say on my boat. Which of the following is the gunwhale
and what is the other one called??

A) It's a lapstrake hull. So each next higher "plank" overlaps the
one below it. At the top of the side of the hull the last plank is
basically
perpendicular to the floor / water.


This would be the Sheer strake


B) Then, at a 90 degree angle to that last "plank" there is another
part of
the
boat. That part is about 8" wide. It' where one could step with one foot
while boarding the boat.


G I'd just call that a deck


Are these both part of the gunwhale?


In a way, yes. The gunwale would be the "line" where the two meet.
Possibly a better way to visualize it would be to look at a rowboat or
canoe ... that upper line of the hull from bow to stern would be the gun'l.

otn


What's a proper or descriptive term for B? I've been calling it
the "upper side deck" (as opposed to the decking on the bow or
the decking on the stern).


I know it seems like a silly question but....

Thanks,
Gary




A waling is a horizontal structural member, lots of structures refer to
the horizontals as walings, mostly marine but some landbased & most
horizontals below the decking on wharves are still referred to as walings.

In olden ships the gun decks (where the cannon lived) had "walings"
(usually with ports to shoot through or oops:-) & they were mostly
towards the upper freeboard, hence it was actually the gun wales.

Now pretty much gun'l

K

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:04:43 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

snip

The real question is whether ALL ships' sterns were called pouppe, or
only raised sterns...or whether all oceangoing ships' sterns originally
had raised afterdecks or a high stern to keep a following sea out. Most
did, as far back as the Vikings and even the Oriental middle eastern
trading vessels that pre-date the Viking explorations by quite a few
centuries. Most of their vessels would be called "canoe" hulls today, so
"afterdeck" or "transom" may not be the appropriate term for the aft end
of those vessels...but many were even higher in the stern than in the bow.

The history of shipbuilding and seafaring is fascinatin' stuff!

A small aside, but still on this topic.

We spent some time a while back sailing through Indonesia - often off
the beaten track. All the small fishing communities on the small
islands used, basically, sailing canoes as fishing boats. Some
planked, some real dugouts - often with brightly striped sails (the
sort of woven plastic we see made into laundry bags down here in Oz).

Just about every one of these little boat had a few planks nailed
around the stern, often brightly painted (or faded). At first, we
thought they were to protect the crew, but the 1 or 2 guys who go out
tend to sit midships - and half the time, there were such big
gaps.....

The style for every island was subtly different, but they fell into
two groups. High planks and low planks.

We had been chatting to a couple of chaps in their little boat one
night, talking about how they sailed and how we sailed. After they
went, we were musing that we must have seemed like a spaceship ariving
in this western yacht - steel rigging, braided ropes, winches etc.
Then we thought that there would have been another time when
"spaceships" arrived.

We realised that low planks came from islands colonised by the Dutch,
high from the Portuguese. The Dutch ships, especially the early East
India Company, were highly advanced for their days, with the then
modern feature of low "stern castles". At that time though, the
Portuguese however still retained the much higher, medieval style,
castles.

Well, that was the theory we came to over a drinkie or two, sitting
watching the sun go down one night. The next time we sail that way,
we'll make sure we start taking pics early so we can qualify the
theory.

Peter

www.oceanodyssey.net

Peter & Jean looking for sponsors for the Melbourne-Osaka Race in
2007, and promising we will get round to updating our website this
year.

"Do not measure your life by the number of breaths you take,
Rather by the number of times life just takes your breath away"