"John Smith" wrote in message
news:8%cic.12388$_L6.984180@attbi_s53...

I don't see a dead dog. Do you see a dead dog?

Damn, I am lost. Didn't you say you killed a dog for crapping in your
lawn?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:SQcic.11849$w96.1131616@attbi_s54...
Doug,

The Penal Code says you are allowed to use any force necessary to stop
the
dog's attack, but once the dog is no longer a threat, you may not use
any
more force on the animal. It appears that you and Don believe in a
high
power than the US Penal Code.

What dog?

OK, as long as no one see you it is alright to kill a dog. You do seem like
a very reasonable person. You and Don should get together, maybe become
roommates.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:8%cic.12388$_L6.984180@attbi_s53...

I don't see a dead dog. Do you see a dead dog?

Damn, I am lost. Didn't you say you killed a dog for crapping in your
lawn?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:SQcic.11849$w96.1131616@attbi_s54...
Doug,

The Penal Code says you are allowed to use any force necessary to
stop
the
dog's attack, but once the dog is no longer a threat, you may not
use
any
more force on the animal. It appears that you and Don believe in a
high
power than the US Penal Code.

What dog?

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:13:12 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:17:56 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

If you ask a neighbor to control its dog and the neighbor refuses,
then
yes.
It is equivalent to molesting your daughter. I do NOT agree that the
neighbor should be shot. However, you must realize that by refusing to
cooperate, the neighbor has made a request.

No he hasn't. That's YOUR choice. He's not the one with the problem,
you are.

Nope. By his INACTION in managing his pet correctly, he has said "I'm
doing
nothing, and I dare you to do something about it".

That's negative logic. And since you can't prove a negative, it's not
a position that would hold water in a true debate.



He has asked you to bring all
possible legal forces to bear on him as quickly as possible.

Key word: Legal. Killing his pet is not justified, unless that pet
attacks you.

The food destruction legalities have already been explained to you. They
will NOT be explained again.

NOTHING except imminent threat is justification to kill. YOU need to
learn that.



As far as a dog simply crapping on your lawn: The law defines civil
trespass
to INCLUDE causing or negligently permitting foreign substances to enter
private property. So, if neighbor's dog craps on your property, the human
has trespassed, even if he's on the sofa when the dog is on your
property.

I'd love to see the case law which backs up your position. Even if you
are right, and the neighbor assumes all liability (and he does to some
degree) it still does not give you the right to circumvent the law.

Ask any lawyer, Dave. This was explained to me by our town justice when he
was my son's baseball coach. The conversation began over a problem with my
immediate neighbor, who continually allowed the ChemLawn fools to let their
sprays drift onto my garden. That is civil trespass. If a neighbor breaks
your window with a baseball, you talk to him. The 38th time it happens, you
nail him for civil trespass. Exactly the same as a person actually entering
your property when you'd rather he didn't. In my case, the judge offered to
provide an injunction, which would force the police to arrest (right on the
spot) the neighbor and the ChemLawn fools if they continued to spray near
the property line. Luckily, it never came to that point.


If your neighbor is spray painting his garage and allows it to drift onto
your car, he's trespassing. Get it?

No, he's not trespassing. But he will be liable for cleaning up the
car, as this is actionable in small claims court.

You must've spoken to a different judge. It is civil trespass. If you take
him to court and he agrees to pay for all damages, trespass will never come
up in the discussion. But, if he mouths off at the judge, he will, indeed,
have trespass tacked onto his rap sheet.



So you like inflicting pain on other people? I believe in giving back
too. If you killed my dog, lets just say that your land would soon
become unable to sustain life for the next several years....... And
then where would you be? Right, just where you are now, in an
apartment.

If you allow your dog to litter private property, YOU obviously enjoy
inflicting pain.

Litter = Pain? On which planet?

In places where people enjoy beauty, not garbage. On private property, the
definition of beauty is none of your business. If I say your garbage doesn't
belong on my property, you have one choice: Do not speak. Clean it up and
stop it from coming my way.



What if a neighbor needs to take 3 hours off from work to
wait at home for a carpet cleaning service.

Why would he? I already told you, 5 minutes with a bottle of spray
cleaner and brush. No carpet service is necessary. You really do live
in a world of extremes.....

No. I own a high-functioning nose. And, on my property, you do not determine
maintenance methods.


You have stolen from them,
Davey. Because of your dog, the neighbor may end up experiencing friction
with his boss. If the boss is an asshole, the employee may not hear the
end
of the aggravation for quite some time, all because you were too busy on
the
sofa to walk your dog.

Oh brother! You should be writing novels. A meteor might hit your yard
tomorrow too. Living your life according to "what-if" scenario
strawmen, is about as unrealistic as one could get.

This "what if" scenario has been going on for 20 years, Dave. Therefore, it
is real.

Dave, you seem to support the idea that dog owners should feel fine about
letting their vermine run around the neighborhood. How do you justify that?

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:14:23 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

How about this: I'm creating a new art form. It's sort of like etchings.
I
use a key on the side of your car. It won't be just a scratch, mind you.
It'll be an actual picture. This is identical to your allowing your dog
to
crap on my lawn. Is my new art form OK with you?



Another strawman?

You also seem to be unable to grasp the difference between deliberate
and malicious intent, and incidental, consequential actions.

The dog craps because that's a natural act. In some places, it's
illegal to allow a dog to roam loose. In other places it's perfectly
acceptable (and legal). I suggest you move to one of those uptight
areas where people share your outrage at such trivial incidents.

Dave

Coprophilia: marked interest in excrement, especially the use of feces or
filth for sexual excitement.

This hobby is fine for some, but dog owners should ask before sharing their
fixation with others.

John, get up to speed here. A toy doesn't get stuck to your shoes, stink up
your home or car rugs, and cost you time to clean it. Forget shooting. We're
way past that subject. Besides, it's not safe to kill a dog with a gun in a
typical neighborhood.

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:zcdic.12536$aQ6.939244@attbi_s51...
Doug,
If your neighbors child was always running through your yard, leaving his
toys in your yard, stepping on your flowers etc, would you shot him?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:59:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Perhaps you need to surround your garden with a fence. Killing a
pet
is an excessive response, and shows a general irresponsibility and
reckless disregard for other people's rights.

Rights? Are you saying that a neighbor has the RIGHT to send his dog
over
to
my yard and litter it with ****?

Who said anything about SENDING the dog over. Pardon the pun, but ****
happens. It's not the dog's fault that you live in its toilet.


If your answer is "yes", then you must also
believe I have the right to roll my trash barrel down to HIS property
and
dump it on his porch.

You are supposed to know better. A dog does not.

You're a piece of work, boy. The neighbor knows that he is doing wrong
by
letting the dog roam. Here, when you go to get a license for your
vermine,
you're given a brochure which explains the law regarding leashes.
Therefore,
if you let the dog roam the neighborhood, you are doing so with the
clear
intent of ****ing off your neighbors.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:21:47 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:59:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Perhaps you need to surround your garden with a fence. Killing a pet
is an excessive response, and shows a general irresponsibility and
reckless disregard for other people's rights.

Rights? Are you saying that a neighbor has the RIGHT to send his dog
over
to
my yard and litter it with ****?

Who said anything about SENDING the dog over. Pardon the pun, but ****
happens. It's not the dog's fault that you live in its toilet.


If your answer is "yes", then you must also
believe I have the right to roll my trash barrel down to HIS property
and
dump it on his porch.

You are supposed to know better. A dog does not.

You're a piece of work, boy. The neighbor knows that he is doing wrong by
letting the dog roam. Here, when you go to get a license for your
vermine,
you're given a brochure which explains the law regarding leashes.
Therefore,
if you let the dog roam the neighborhood, you are doing so with the clear
intent of ****ing off your neighbors.


I'm a little lost... How did the dog get on your boat?

BB

I wish I knew! I think it jumped in while I was parking the trailer. Oh
well. More chum for the day.

I agree inconsideration should be gauged by the offenders intent.
Obviously a dog has no idea about how its behavior impacts the property
owner. In addition, I am an animal lover, and to a vastly greater extent,
a dog lover.

I would never shot a dog, and it would be under rare circumstances that I
would ever approve of anyone killing a dog. Even if the dog is ****ting
on the lawn and digging up the garden. Even if the property owner
conveyed the problem to the dog owner, I don't believe killing the dog is
an appropriate course of action. I would view people who make the choice
to kill a dog who was only defacing their property as mean spirited.

Still, if a dog went on to someones property and the owner shoots it, even
if its my dog, I wouldn't even consider holding them legally responsible
for thee act.

Even in the most unflattering circustances in which the owners kills my
dog without ever first attempting to communicate or pursue legal efforts,
while I'd think my neighbor to be the biggest prick on God green earth,
I'd still acknowledge the fact that it was my dog, it was my
responsibility to keep this dog under my control, and I failed to meet the
responsibility. Even if the the law gives me the right to seek
retribution, does not make it morally acceptable for me to do so.
Obviously, the rule of Dave applies, and this mean spirited little prick
will be promptly removed from my Christmas card list.

If the property owner warned the dog owner about problem and the intended
consequences, then shame on the owner. Once again I don't agree with the
action, but I really can't comprehend why every one is putting the owness
of the problem on the shoulders property owner and not the dog owner. If
my neighbor told me to build a fence to keep their dog from defacing my
property, they will not have made a friend that day. In the most
reasonable tone I could muster, my replyto their comment would be: "Aside
for the fine point that it is YOUR DOG, it would be quicker and cheaper
solution to put your dog on a restraint when you let it out."

As for any comment about it being legal for dogs to roam loose, while I'm
not an attorney, I'd assume anything citing a dog may run loose implies it
is within the confines of YOUR PROPERTY. I'd love to see any type of
ordinance that even remotely suggest otherwise.

Bob Dimond


In article , Dave Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:14:23 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

How about this: I'm creating a new art form. It's sort of like etchings. I
use a key on the side of your car. It won't be just a scratch, mind you.
It'll be an actual picture. This is identical to your allowing your dog to
crap on my lawn. Is my new art form OK with you?



Another strawman?

You also seem to be unable to grasp the difference between deliberate
and malicious intent, and incidental, consequential actions.

The dog craps because that's a natural act. In some places, it's
illegal to allow a dog to roam loose. In other places it's perfectly
acceptable (and legal). I suggest you move to one of those uptight
areas where people share your outrage at such trivial incidents.

Dave

"Bob D." wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Hall
wrote:



So you take picture of the dog crapping in your yard and show it to
him.

"I really can't tell if that's my dog..."

Now he's pushing it..


Well, sadly, there are even people who will commit an act in front you and
while denying it to your face.

I think we call them politicians :^)

Hey...my first dog experience was with a very old lady who said just that:
"You must be mistaken, young man. My dog never leaves the yard!" The problem
was that I watched it leave and return to her yard about 20 times before
trying to discuss it with her.

"DSK" wrote
But then my attitude is shaped by always having had a dog, and
always having cared for & trained them properly, and been rewarded by
always having *good* dogs.

Don wrote:
There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.

I disagree. There are definitely some bad dogs. Almost all of them have
been programmed to be bad by stupid and/or lazy owners, and
unfortunately not all can be reprogrammed... although most can, with
enough patience & a working knowledge of behavioral psychology.

DSK

"John Smith" wrote
I thought we were talking about the law according to the US Penal Code.
Now
if we were talking about the Penal Code the law is:

I don't give a **** about your discretionary laws.