We've got a one-season old North main and genoa on our J/24. Ever
since it was new, I've had troubles getting all the teltails to fly
right. When I spoke to the North loft last year, shortly after we got
the sail, they said don't worry about it, just keep the middle set
happy. They said the bottom set is mostly there for the jib trimmer
to use for as a rough guide during pre-start maneuvering and I should
ignore it while driving upwind.

Last night was pretty typical. At the start of the race, the wind was
about 10-12 kts, and was down to about 6-10 by the end of the last
beat. By sailing a little higher or a little lower, I could get
either the middle set or the top set flying right, but never both at
the same time, no matter what we did with the leads. Moving the leads
forward helped a little, but when it got light, even with the leads as
far forward as they would go, we still couldn't get the top of the
sail trimmed in enough.

We used to have Z-sails, and never had this kind of problem. I'm not
sure if the boat was any faster upwind, but the teltales did fly
evenly. Any ideas what we should try, or should I just concentrate on
the middle set and not worry that the others are not flying right?

Roy,
I am not interested in igoring the trim of part of the sail.
Tell your local North loft to get someone out there to explain to you
why this is a fast sail (I - for one - would love to hear their answer).
This is why you pay the big buck for the big name sail. I've sailed
j24 more than a few times and I wouldn't be satisfied with less than the
full set working.
Matt Colie "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Congenital Sailor

Roy Smith wrote:
We've got a one-season old North main and genoa on our J/24. Ever
since it was new, I've had troubles getting all the teltails to fly
right. When I spoke to the North loft last year, shortly after we got
the sail, they said don't worry about it, just keep the middle set
happy. They said the bottom set is mostly there for the jib trimmer
to use for as a rough guide during pre-start maneuvering and I should
ignore it while driving upwind.

Last night was pretty typical. At the start of the race, the wind was
about 10-12 kts, and was down to about 6-10 by the end of the last
beat. By sailing a little higher or a little lower, I could get
either the middle set or the top set flying right, but never both at
the same time, no matter what we did with the leads. Moving the leads
forward helped a little, but when it got light, even with the leads as
far forward as they would go, we still couldn't get the top of the
sail trimmed in enough.

We used to have Z-sails, and never had this kind of problem. I'm not
sure if the boat was any faster upwind, but the teltales did fly
evenly. Any ideas what we should try, or should I just concentrate on
the middle set and not worry that the others are not flying right?

Roy Smith wrote:
We've got a one-season old North main and genoa on our J/24. Ever
since it was new, I've had troubles getting all the teltails to fly
right.
...snip...

Are we talking about the jib/genoa? Are we talking about the yarns near
the luff or streamers on the leech?

Tom
of the Swee****er Sea

In article ,
Tom Shilson wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:
We've got a one-season old North main and genoa on our J/24. Ever
since it was new, I've had troubles getting all the teltails to fly
right.
...snip...

Are we talking about the jib/genoa? Are we talking about the yarns near
the luff or streamers on the leech?

Tom
of the Swee****er Sea

The yarns near the genoa luff.

Roy Smith wrote:
We've got a one-season old North main and genoa on our J/24. Ever
since it was new, I've had troubles getting all the teltails to fly
right.

Caveat - I have no J24 experience. I have done jib and main on Sonars
(fractional) and on a Schock 35 (masthead) for many years. Some of these
suggestions you can do during a race and some would be better done
before a race or on a separate on-the-water session.

If the angle of the sail to the wind is the same, top to bottom, then
all tell-tales should fly. (I am going to assume that the sail is not
defective.) I don't like the "just ignore it" answer. You paid good
money for the sail and you have right to satisfaction.

If you look up the leech of the jib the curve should follow the shape of
the main. There should be no twist-off at the top and no cupping.

If the old sail were white (dacron) it may have stretched into a shape
that matches the boat.

Is the backstay set correctly? That will influence the sag in the
headstay. Try more backstay and see if it improves the situation.

Is the mast straight? Does it sag off to one side or the other? Have
someone look up the mast while you are close-hauled. Have you checked
the shroud tension? Is the headstay length correct? If you have had the
mast off the boat around the time that you got the new sail, you should
recheck everything.

How is the main? If it is really soft it could be sagging into the wind
flow around the jib and throwing that off. You could try making the main
really flat (backstay, vang, cunningham, halyard all on hard) and see if
it changes the jib.

The jib car position should not be all the way forward. The jib car/jib
sheet is a mix and match thing. The car is used to try to get all the
tell-tales to break together, top to bottom. Each change of the car
requires a tweak of the the sheet. The car all the way forward would
result in a very tight top of the jib and a very loose foot.

Since the problem is consistent for a year, it is probably not a wind
issue, but I think that I should mention that wind shear (difference in
wind direction between the boom and the mast-head) can throw things off.

I suggest getting a tuning guide from the sailmaker. it may be available
on the web. Go through all the checks to make sure you have the boat set
up right. If that doesn't fix the problem invite the sailmaker on board
for a race to show you how to set up the sail.

Another thing you can do periodically is to invite another skipper on
board as crew. He can make suggestions which you can take or reject.
You can also crew on another boat and watch how that skipper does
things. Do this at least once a year even if you get your current tuning
problems fixed.

A personal gripe - When you read books, magazine articles, or advice
from others, you get rules of thumb. They are the general rules to
follow. To step up to the next level you need to learn when and how to
break the rules of thumb. You need to know how the boat "feels" and how
the sails look. There are no books for that.

Let me know how things work out.

Thanks,

tom
of the Swee****er Sea
St. Paul, MN

If the above still doesn't solve the problem, consider headstay sag
relative to rig tune or adjustment of halyard tension/jib cunningham
(most J/24s have them). A good way to test would be to set the genoa
without the main and see if you can get all the tell tails to stream.
Fractional rig one-designs like J/24 used to all use max headstay, but
current tuning concepts tend to favor significant adjustment for
headstay sag.

Roy Smith wrote:
We've got a one-season old North main and genoa on our J/24. Ever
since it was new, I've had troubles getting all the teltails to fly
right. ...big snip...

How have things been going? Have you had a chance to try some of our
suggestions?

Tom
of the Swee****er Sea