Hi,
I've recently sold my main\jib TS and bought a cutter rigged ketch
and have come up with a few things I'm not too sure of.

I've got a yankee cut Jib and self tacking staysl I tend to use when
it's at all blowy or likely to be. I've also got a very large Genoa I
use when it's not. I thought that with the Genoa you keep the staysl
down as you don't want to smother the Genoa. I read a comment where the
staysl was used with a genoa. Is this worthwhile\possible with a large
genoa?

Now I know this one is subjective.........but, I feel very comfortable
with the jib\staysl cutter rig, particularily in bad weather. My wife
is keen on a self furler and I can appreciate that most of the time I
probably would find a furler made things easier.

Now the question is, given that our game is cruising , is it
(a)possible (ie how do you hank jib on with furler) and (b) practicable
to switch between the two?

I guess what I'm asking is do many cruisers actually do this.

O.k last question. I'm yet to fly the kite shaped spinnaker. Is this
sail set with two poles similiar to twin headsails or like a
conventional spinnaker. Is this sail only for running?

I've got a ways to go on the learning curve so hope these questions
make some sense.

Thanks

Staysail/Yankee/Large overlapping genoa:

First of all unless you are sailing in high tradewind conditions ......
keep the Yankee below and use the Genoa. The yankee is highly
inefficient with its center of effort 'way too high' resulting in
mostly heel and little forward thrust. Modern dacron, etc. materials
dont strectch; hence, no need to 'split the foretriangle' as when sail
material was 'stretchy'.
With a large overlapping genoa, using the staysail will aid in tacking
the genoa; otherwise prepare to foul the genoa on the forestay when
tacking. For beating with a staysail under a genoa, set the staysail
with bar-tight halyard to attain a rounded luff shape and draft forward
mode while flat aft section at the leech. This will improve the flow
at the mast and will yield less areodynamic drag due to mast turbulance
- for a slight increase in overall boat speed. Position of the
staysail athwartships is important, so watch your knotmeter when
setting.

Most of the interaction of staysails set flying under a genoas is
usually conjecture .... and is dead wrong. The only aerodynamic full
'field plotter' analysis ever done on staysails under genoas was by the
famous aerodynamicist Arvel Gentry in about 1978 .... an article based
on his work appeared in the compendioum "Best of Sail Trim" by Sail
Magazine about 1982. The preceding paragraph outlines his approach
when beating; otherwise the staysail 'fills in' the foretriangle , to
advantage, when not beating. A staysail 'under' a large genoa is a
very 'finicky' sail to shape and set .... watch your knotmeter. About
the only time that the staysail 'adversly interferes' with a genoa is
in very light wind conditions (air flow separation problems) .... and
usually in very light winds, the stays'l is dropped on a beat or high
close reach .... otherwise it always 'adds' to the sail plan.

With a good furling/reefing system you can reef a genoa down about 30%
and still have good shape. Huge genoas for roller furling usually
need to be specially cut on the luff; or, have a foam luff added to
keep good shape when you reef down that 30%.

The best staysail set-up IMHO is flying from a boom, especially a boom
that can be vanged to the deck (or the use or a 'hoyt boom'). A self
tacking staysail is GREAT when beating hard in stink weather; but, the
drawback is that most self-tacking set-up do not include a means of
normal fairlead adjustment ..... meaning that when you open the attack
angle to reach or run you wont be able to move the 'fairlead' positiion
forward and the upper leach of the sail will be terribly twisted open
(flogging upper leech) - using a vang on a boom will solve this
'problem'. Probably 99% of the cutters you see sailing at lower than
a beat will have a flogging upper leech and an overtrimmed foot - a
boomed staysail with a vang (or Hoyt boom) will solve this 'problem'.

A staysail boom close to the foredeck can sweep you overboard. just
make it a practice to bring in the single staysail sheet all-the-way-in
to control the boom/staysail when going forward .... or learn to make
yourself an instant 'flat-spot' on the deck if the boom starts to
swing.

As regards the 'kite shaped' spinnaker. .... please explain exacty the
shape. Cutters are lousey sailers dead downwind and usually the
fastest way downwind is to tack downwind on a broad reach at 45 degress
above dead downwind (true) .... gybing instead of tacking. A
symmetrical or asymmetrical spinnaker is the usual for downwind
tacking..
Kite shaped Spinnaker???? this may be an old fashiioned 'blooper' or
spinnaker staysail, mizzen-spinnaker etc. .... used for direct downwind
sailing in addition to a regular symmetrical spinnaker but flown 'free'
and 'way out in front' on the opposite side. Direct downwnd sailing
is very inefficient and slow; most folks nowadays 'tack downwind' to
keep up a higher apparent wind: faster and easier.

hope this helps



In article .com,
Matt wrote:

Hi,
I've recently sold my main\jib TS and bought a cutter rigged ketch
and have come up with a few things I'm not too sure of.

I've got a yankee cut Jib and self tacking staysl I tend to use when
it's at all blowy or likely to be. I've also got a very large Genoa I
use when it's not. I thought that with the Genoa you keep the staysl
down as you don't want to smother the Genoa. I read a comment where the
staysl was used with a genoa. Is this worthwhile\possible with a large
genoa?

Now I know this one is subjective.........but, I feel very comfortable
with the jib\staysl cutter rig, particularily in bad weather. My wife
is keen on a self furler and I can appreciate that most of the time I
probably would find a furler made things easier.

Now the question is, given that our game is cruising , is it
(a)possible (ie how do you hank jib on with furler) and (b) practicable
to switch between the two?

I guess what I'm asking is do many cruisers actually do this.

O.k last question. I'm yet to fly the kite shaped spinnaker. Is this
sail set with two poles similiar to twin headsails or like a
conventional spinnaker. Is this sail only for running?

I've got a ways to go on the learning curve so hope these questions
make some sense.

Thanks

Matt wrote:
Hi,
I've recently sold my main\jib TS and bought a cutter rigged ketch
and have come up with a few things I'm not too sure of.

I've got a yankee cut Jib and self tacking staysl I tend to use when
it's at all blowy or likely to be. I've also got a very large Genoa I
use when it's not. I thought that with the Genoa you keep the staysl
down as you don't want to smother the Genoa. I read a comment where the
staysl was used with a genoa. Is this worthwhile\possible with a large
genoa?

Now I know this one is subjective.........but, I feel very comfortable
with the jib\staysl cutter rig, particularily in bad weather. My wife
is keen on a self furler and I can appreciate that most of the time I
probably would find a furler made things easier.

Now the question is, given that our game is cruising , is it
(a)possible (ie how do you hank jib on with furler) and (b) practicable
to switch between the two?

I guess what I'm asking is do many cruisers actually do this.

O.k last question. I'm yet to fly the kite shaped spinnaker. Is this
sail set with two poles similiar to twin headsails or like a
conventional spinnaker. Is this sail only for running?

I've got a ways to go on the learning curve so hope these questions
make some sense.

Thanks

My last boat (heavy displacement 30' mono) and current boat
(light displacement 40' catamaran) both have cutter rigs.

1st boat started with staysail + yankee for foresails.

Sailed well in stronger winds (15+) but not enough sail area
for under 15. We put a furler on it and a genoa. That
made it sail well to about 8 knots.

In stronger winds (say over 25 knots) the rig was staysail +
little bit of genoa for extra drive, say 30-50 sq. ft and 1
or 2 reefing mainsail. Went well and the tightly sheeted
staysail helped us stay close to the wind.

Our current boat is much the same, only we can delay reefing
a bit more and need to reef less. Goes faster too

I occasionally would set the staysail when reaching for a
bit of extra drive but not often.

Furling:

You can convert a genoa to furling operation relatively
simply, but if the genoa is a light fabric it will distort
when reefed in heavier wind. A purpose built "all purpose"
furling genoa will do better, especially if you have luff
flattening devices in it.

You can convert the yankee the same way and only put it on
if you anticipate heavy winds. In practise I doubt you or
most others with this setup will do this, given how
convenient the furler is. A lot depends on your cruising
locale and if heavy winds are frequent or rare.

Evan Gatehouse

Thanks for the responses.

Kite shaped sail is literally like an inverted childs kite, diamond
type of shape. This sail could possibly be 35 years old if that
provides any clues.

Very interesting points on the use of staysail, I'll give them a go.

The area we sail in often gets 1-2 week periods of 20-25,30 knt winds
during winter with 8-15knts more typical the rest of the year.

One idea I was entertaining was going with the furler and putting the
inner forestay on a hyfield lever to get it out of the way when
tacking. (thinking I wouldn't have the staysail up.) If the wind really
got too much I could completely furl the furler and use the staysail
only. ie forget about the yankee cut jib altogether.

I guess experience on my boat will tell me this in time but in your
experience would the benefits of a staysail with genoa make the above
idea a bad trade off?

And lastly (this one puzzles me) if caught in a gale I understand you'd
remove the furled sail. ie leave the forestay bare. Is this correct? I
had a bad experience where a poorly furled jib developed a pocket 3/4
up and flogged to shreds.

If so how do you go about removing this sail when you furled it because
the winds were overpowering it in the first place.

So much to learn.
Thanks again

On 6 Jun 2005 18:38:56 -0700, "Matt"
wrote:

Hi,
I've recently sold my main\jib TS and bought a cutter rigged ketch
and have come up with a few things I'm not too sure of.

I've got a yankee cut Jib and self tacking staysl I tend to use when
it's at all blowy or likely to be. I've also got a very large Genoa I
use when it's not. I thought that with the Genoa you keep the staysl
down as you don't want to smother the Genoa. I read a comment where the
staysl was used with a genoa. Is this worthwhile\possible with a large
genoa?

This is slightly confusing because there is a sail not much used
anymore on cutter rigs called a genoa staysail. Picture a yankee cut
or a number 2 or a number 3 jib on a high tack line/pendant. Picture a
padeye on the deck about one quarter to one third of the way to the
mast. Picture a halyard sheave between the spreaders and the masthead.

The genoa staysail goes in there. It's a largish sail with a long foot
and it works on a reach with the jib/foresail to make an efficient
slot. If you are doing a long reach on one tack, you can attach the
tack of the genoa staysail to the rail.

On my boat, it's good from about 8-18 knots.

Your ability to trim a standard staysail on its own centerline stay
will depend on your control lines and whether it's clubfooted or not.
Proper staysails have a short traveller and it's this that needs
tweaking in concert with the genoa or yankee to get that slot effect
that powers the boat.

Staysails are great, of course, for when the wind pipes up: just drop
the genoa (or roll it, I suppose) and put a reef in the main. The
staysail can stay up longest and it's close enough to the center of
effort so that it won't pull the boat around by its nose.

If your wife is worried about hank-on genoas of large size, rig a
downhaul line to a block near the tack. You can "crash-douse" a
hank-on sail this way far faster than you can roll up a furling sail,
which can go very wrong at just the wrong time (sudden squall).

Of course, pointing is hard to achieve on a cutter, so if the sails
are managable and you are able, I would keep the simple, reliable
hank-on foresails. We like to get the most out of the boat we have,
and furling, while convenient in some senses, is a bit of a compromise
here.

R.

test

Hi Matt,
I sail an Island Packet 38 cutter on the US East Coast and offshore.
I've sailed over 8000 blue-water miles with this configuration in all
conditions.

I recently switched my hanked-on staysail to a roller furler. The jib
is also on a roller. I debated the change, but ultimately found that
having both headsails on rollers (and eliminating the need to go on
deck to douse the staysail on 40+ knot winds) enhanced safety. I also
found that I now use the staysail a lot more since it only takes 30
seconds to deploy or douse the sail.

I talked with several sailmakers, but none had a way to use hanked on
sails over the roller furler foil/extrusion. I use my inner (staysail)
stay to fly my storm jib as well as the staysail. I had to modify the
storm jib by cutting off the hanks and sewing on a luff tape to match
the roller furler. Now, when we anticipate winds over 40 knots for
more than 6 hours, I go up on deck to pull down the staysail and put up
the storm jib. It's a pain in the neck, but I'd have to be up on deck
anyway if the whole thing was hanked on.

You're very lucky to have a choice of headsails. The high-cut Yankee
is a great sail for trade-wind conditions. I fly a Yankee and Staysail
combination between 15 and 25 knots. When the wind is over 25 knots,
you simply roll up the Yankee and go on staysail and reefed main. When
the wind goes over 35, we sail on just staysail. For summer/light-wind
conditions, I swap the Yankee for a 130 Genoa. With double rollers and
all lines led aft to the cockpit, you can simply "switch gears" from
the cockpit. This capability is a big help, especially when you have
crew onboard who are less experienced (and don't want to go out on
deck) or who are not that familiar with your boat. The ability to
quickly shorten sail is, in my opinion, a great safety factor
especially in weather when squalls quickly come and go.

As a final note, you can save more than a few $$$ with a used
roller-furler unit. I found a #2 Harken unit of mid 1990's vintage for
$400 in a used equipment shop in Wickford RI. (Compare this to about
$3200 for a brand-new unit!)

Hope this helps,

Jeff



Matt wrote:
Hi,
I've recently sold my main\jib TS and bought a cutter rigged ketch
and have come up with a few things I'm not too sure of.

I've got a yankee cut Jib and self tacking staysl I tend to use when
it's at all blowy or likely to be. I've also got a very large Genoa I
use when it's not. I thought that with the Genoa you keep the staysl
down as you don't want to smother the Genoa. I read a comment where the
staysl was used with a genoa. Is this worthwhile\possible with a large
genoa?

Now I know this one is subjective.........but, I feel very comfortable
with the jib\staysl cutter rig, particularily in bad weather. My wife
is keen on a self furler and I can appreciate that most of the time I
probably would find a furler made things easier.

Now the question is, given that our game is cruising , is it
(a)possible (ie how do you hank jib on with furler) and (b) practicable
to switch between the two?

I guess what I'm asking is do many cruisers actually do this.

O.k last question. I'm yet to fly the kite shaped spinnaker. Is this
sail set with two poles similiar to twin headsails or like a
conventional spinnaker. Is this sail only for running?

I've got a ways to go on the learning curve so hope these questions
make some sense.

Thanks

In article .com,
"Matt" wrote:

Hi,
I've recently sold my main\jib TS and bought a cutter rigged ketch
and have come up with a few things I'm not too sure of.

I've got a yankee cut Jib and self tacking staysl I tend to use when
it's at all blowy or likely to be. I've also got a very large Genoa I
use when it's not. I thought that with the Genoa you keep the staysl
down as you don't want to smother the Genoa. I read a comment where the
staysl was used with a genoa. Is this worthwhile\possible with a large
genoa?

Now I know this one is subjective.........but, I feel very comfortable
with the jib\staysl cutter rig, particularily in bad weather. My wife
is keen on a self furler and I can appreciate that most of the time I
probably would find a furler made things easier.

Now the question is, given that our game is cruising , is it
(a)possible (ie how do you hank jib on with furler) and (b) practicable
to switch between the two?

I guess what I'm asking is do many cruisers actually do this.

O.k last question. I'm yet to fly the kite shaped spinnaker. Is this
sail set with two poles similiar to twin headsails or like a
conventional spinnaker. Is this sail only for running?

I've got a ways to go on the learning curve so hope these questions
make some sense.

Thanks

Matt: Mr. Hampel's post says it all. But if furling your headsail to 30%
is still too much sail, you might want to check out Gale Sails
(http://www.pridemarine.com/ATN%20Gale%20Sail.htm) which simplifies
storm jibs for those with roller furled headsails. You can put out a
band aid to balance the boat and go upwind without having to change
sails.

Don't have anything to do with company but it is something I am adding
to my new boat.

harlan

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?

A gale sail is a good idea but you can essentially do the same thing by
adding a set of reef points in the staysail and a reefing hook at the
tack etc. At least this is the way that I see I need to 'do it'.
Then.... add a third reef to the main; or, a trysail.

But then when you 'chintz,' you somehow wind up 'paying' for your
ill-preparation .... usually.

In article ,
Harlan Lachman wrote:

In article .com,
"Matt" wrote:

Hi,
I've recently sold my main\jib TS and bought a cutter rigged ketch
and have come up with a few things I'm not too sure of.

I've got a yankee cut Jib and self tacking staysl I tend to use when
it's at all blowy or likely to be. I've also got a very large Genoa I
use when it's not. I thought that with the Genoa you keep the staysl
down as you don't want to smother the Genoa. I read a comment where the
staysl was used with a genoa. Is this worthwhile\possible with a large
genoa?

Now I know this one is subjective.........but, I feel very comfortable
with the jib\staysl cutter rig, particularily in bad weather. My wife
is keen on a self furler and I can appreciate that most of the time I
probably would find a furler made things easier.

Now the question is, given that our game is cruising , is it
(a)possible (ie how do you hank jib on with furler) and (b) practicable
to switch between the two?

I guess what I'm asking is do many cruisers actually do this.

O.k last question. I'm yet to fly the kite shaped spinnaker. Is this
sail set with two poles similiar to twin headsails or like a
conventional spinnaker. Is this sail only for running?

I've got a ways to go on the learning curve so hope these questions
make some sense.

Thanks

Matt: Mr. Hampel's post says it all. But if furling your headsail to 30%
is still too much sail, you might want to check out Gale Sails
(http://www.pridemarine.com/ATN%20Gale%20Sail.htm) which simplifies
storm jibs for those with roller furled headsails. You can put out a
band aid to balance the boat and go upwind without having to change
sails.

Don't have anything to do with company but it is something I am adding
to my new boat.

harlan