K. Smith wrote in message
...
Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss
it:-)

Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in
open water are the stuff of over active imaginations & of course once
again that Rick is almost as big a liar as Harry.

Before you knee jerk have a good look at the pics & you'll see that
there is not likely to be a 30ft wave there in any of them & that's
about as bad as it gets as claimed by the pic posters.

Well found properly handled small boats in open water have little the
fear from any of that.

K

You may have no problem, your derelict tub run aground in some backwoods
swamp on the Gold Coast.
People who get out on the real ocean say different.

K. Smith wrote...
Before you knee jerk have a good look at the pics & you'll see that
there is not likely to be a 30ft wave there in any of them

Uh-huh. Please explain how a wave of less than 30 feet is going to roll
clear over the bow of a large ship with approx 60 feet of freeboard.


Well found properly handled small boats in open water have little the
fear from any of that.



Don White wrote:
You may have no problem, your derelict tub run aground in some backwoods
swamp on the Gold Coast.
People who get out on the real ocean say different.


Yes, it's pretty clear that "K. Smith" knows little about this. Maybe
it's wishful thinking?

I often hear the crab-crusher guys talking about their ideal of an
"All-weather go-anywhere" cruiser... and think about the North Atlantic
storm that a USN destroyer went through, while I was on it... caused a
couple million dollars of damage, ripping up 1 1/2" welded steel
fittings and sending water flooding in the forced-draft blower intakes
(among other things).... and I don't think any small boat is going to
survive that other than in pieces. Not to mention that the people in it
wold be pulped against the cabin sides.

Sorry, but reality is what it is, not what you wish it was.

Fresh Breezes
Doug King

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:45:47 -0500, DSK wrote:
I don't think any small boat is going to
survive that other than in pieces. Not to mention that the people in it
wold be pulped against the cabin sides.

=====================================

More often than not, thats what seems to happen with small seaworthy
boats. The boat turns out to be stronger than the people inside, and
after getting rolled once, or dropped into the trough of a big wave on
its beam ends, the folks inside get broken ribs and concussions. A
lot of small boats have been found still floating long after the
people were taken off.

I know several people who have gotten broken ribs in conditions much
less severe than those in the pictures. If you're not coughing up
blood however, or unconcious, it's considered unmanly to not finish
the race.

:-)

Great pix! Thanx...
--
Capt. Frank

__c
\ _ | \_
__\_| oooo \_____
~~~~|______________/ ~~~~~
www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
hlink.net...
http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith"
wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/




Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss
it:-)

Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in
open water are the stuff of over active imaginations

Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite.

Why?

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
-----------
"Angling may be said to be so
like the mathematics that it
can never be fully learnt..."

Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653

I don't remember, was "Kenai" a flush deck or raised foc'sle ship? (If
flush deck, going to the foc'sle in even relatively calm conditions
could be dangerous to ones health.)
In the storm in question, seas were running @60'. The Captain slowed
down to basically "hove too" and headed directly into the seas. On that
ship, the raised foc'sle was @30'-40' above the water when loaded and in
that condition was only taking spray (trust me, we watched for awhile).
If you look at the picture, you'll see that along the center catwalk,
there are a number of places you could go too (deepwell pump houses) for
protection.
I was able to get forward (damn spray and rain STINGS at those wind
speeds) secure the door, check for other damage (there was a good deal
of it), retrieve the ship's bell (it had been broken off and was lodged
in between some piping) and then head back.
About halfway back, the old man blew the whistle to warn me of a "big
one" coming ..... he says that's the fastest he ever saw me move.
Also, if you look at the picture of the foremast, in this storm the
brackets for all the deck lights (near the top of the mast) were bent up
from seas coming aboard. (Ship in question ... Delaware Trader).

otn

Rick wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:

I always get a kick out of seeing that picture, having spent a good
deal of time on that ship in similar conditions,


Spent a week in same conditions one Christmas near the dateline on the
"Kenai" running from Valdez to Tsingtao. Winds over 100kn sustained,
waves over 100 feet. On the crests it was impossible to tell the
difference between the air and the water.

The noise alone was enough to write sea stories about. The sound of the
wind was only drowned out by the sound of books, TV sets, refrigerators,
and the contents of closets and desks crashing from bulkhead to bulkhead
in the room above as the ship rolled.

We lost 5 liferafts, about 200 feet of railing, the ladders on the
kingposts, stove in the overhead above the cross passage and wiped off
most of the strain gauges on the main deck. There was no way in hell any
human could have survived a trip to the foc'sle.

Well, maybe Jax could, and he probably did near the rocks off Cape
Hatteras where the Gulf Stream lurks.

Rick

otnmbrd wrote:
I don't remember, was "Kenai" a flush deck or raised foc'sle ship? (If
flush deck, going to the foc'sle in even relatively calm conditions
could be dangerous to ones health.)

Kenai has raised foc'sle. We were hove to trying to maintain steerage to
keep the bow about 45 degrees or so to the seas. Making about 40 turns
or so, was really grim listening to the engine, hoping that we wouldn't
lose the plant.

Even hove to we were rolling so badly it tore the Sat-A off the mount
and snapped the HF whips. We had a "hydrostatic" load on board but still
had a good deal of freeboard but there was no way to avoid taking seas
when the roll was out of phase.

It was the most incredible storm I have ever experienced in quite a few
years at sea. No one even spoke for days, too exhausted, too stressed to
do anything other than minimal movement to go on watch, no hot food for
the whole week. What amazed me was the pressure of the water was enough
to bend a perfect curve in the ladders on the kingposts ... the idea
that the water could bend that steel when the only area it found was
about 3 inches wide on the side straps.

The sight of the deck movement was awe inspiring, thank heavens it was
not one of the high tensile hulls like the Keystone Canyon or Atigun
Pass. We found a few cracks on our return though.

The Kenai has shelters and breakwaters at a couple of spots along the
deck but still there was no way to go on deck. Not even on the stern.

One less interesting trip the C/M and bosun had to go forward in weather
to secure something or other in the stores forward. The weather was bad
enough that the deck was secured but it was one of those "had to do"
things. I was watching from the wheelhouse as they made their way
forward from shelter to shelter between seas breaking over the bow. The
water would hit the bow and rise vertically for maybe a hundred feet or
so and crash back on deck just behind the IG vent mast. It looked like
it was just heavy spray from the wheelhouse. They got just behind the
vent mast when a big one hit the bow and came crashing down on them.
They were knocked down like bowing pins and washed back to the pipeline
where they managed to hang on. It was amazing how much weight of water
was in the harmless looking cloud of spray.

Rick

G I've got another one about being on the stern and taking a sea
backwards, over the stern ....same storm .... looked like a drowned rat
in that one.
We had the "American Trader" .... she was a crack, looking for an excuse
to happen.
Glad to see much of that tonnage is and has been replaced, as that run
is a "ship killer".
As for deck movement .... it's an awesome sight to stand in the
wheelhouse of a tanker and watch the hull flex ... especially when the
bow is doing that bounce and twist, seemingly independent of the rest of
the ship.

otn

Rick wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:

I don't remember, was "Kenai" a flush deck or raised foc'sle ship?
(If flush deck, going to the foc'sle in even relatively calm
conditions could be dangerous to ones health.)


Kenai has raised foc'sle. We were hove to trying to maintain steerage to
keep the bow about 45 degrees or so to the seas. Making about 40 turns
or so, was really grim listening to the engine, hoping that we wouldn't
lose the plant.

Even hove to we were rolling so badly it tore the Sat-A off the mount
and snapped the HF whips. We had a "hydrostatic" load on board but still
had a good deal of freeboard but there was no way to avoid taking seas
when the roll was out of phase.

It was the most incredible storm I have ever experienced in quite a few
years at sea. No one even spoke for days, too exhausted, too stressed to
do anything other than minimal movement to go on watch, no hot food for
the whole week. What amazed me was the pressure of the water was enough
to bend a perfect curve in the ladders on the kingposts ... the idea
that the water could bend that steel when the only area it found was
about 3 inches wide on the side straps.

The sight of the deck movement was awe inspiring, thank heavens it was
not one of the high tensile hulls like the Keystone Canyon or Atigun
Pass. We found a few cracks on our return though.

The Kenai has shelters and breakwaters at a couple of spots along the
deck but still there was no way to go on deck. Not even on the stern.

One less interesting trip the C/M and bosun had to go forward in weather
to secure something or other in the stores forward. The weather was bad
enough that the deck was secured but it was one of those "had to do"
things. I was watching from the wheelhouse as they made their way
forward from shelter to shelter between seas breaking over the bow. The
water would hit the bow and rise vertically for maybe a hundred feet or
so and crash back on deck just behind the IG vent mast. It looked like
it was just heavy spray from the wheelhouse. They got just behind the
vent mast when a big one hit the bow and came crashing down on them.
They were knocked down like bowing pins and washed back to the pipeline
where they managed to hang on. It was amazing how much weight of water
was in the harmless looking cloud of spray.

Rick

otnmbrd wrote:
G I've got another one about being on the stern and taking a sea
backwards, over the stern ....

That is what led to the practice of "securing the deck" and locking
ourselves inside. Ernie K. Gann's son was lost on that run when they
took a sea over the stern while trying to secure some barrels that were
adrift.

Sometimes we would take a gander out the door leading from the ER to the
stern on the main deck when we were closed up ... the sight of those
waves so far overhead is definitely a spiritual experience!

Rick

http://www.naval.com/heavy-seas/3/

If you examine the first picture and the next to the last picture showing
the huge wave on this page very closely you will figure out that the next to
the last picture is a hoax. Look closely at the details of the boat in the
first picture and closely at those identical details on the next to the last
one. Look at the water detail around the rear of the boat, identical. The
hoax picture appears on one of the other pages too.

So what is the consensus on measuring a wave. Do you measure from the
average water height to the top of the wave? Or from the bottom of the
preceeding trough to the top of the wave?

A 60 ft high ship can easily have a 30 foot wave break over it if the back
of the ship is still on top of the prior wave and the nose is in the trough.

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith"
wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/




Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss
it:-)

Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in
open water are the stuff of over active imaginations

Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite.

Why?

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
-----------
"Angling may be said to be so
like the mathematics that it
can never be fully learnt..."

Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653