What ever the sad reasoning to use live ammo the true disturbance is
when our government needs to call in the military to quell it's
civilian protest. Yes I remember and in fact I was in-country when this
horrific act happened...Thanks for remembering the incident it was an
important day in our history.

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...
To the 4 students killed at Kent State on May 4, 1970, may you
continue to rest in peace.

http://kent.state.tripod.com/

Peace? If they were acting peacefully, they wouldn't have been shot.
How many students who stayed in their rooms studying were shot that
day? Hmmmmmmmmmmm?



Yeah sure.....unarmed students deserved to be shot dead.

Where the hell is your head NOYB?

Two days before the shootings, the demonstrators burned down the ROTC
building, and then pelted the cops and firefighters with rocks, and
slashed the firehoses with knives.

Biker groups showed up, store windows were smashed, and shops were
looted. There was talk about "revolutionaries" showing up to destroy the
campus and city and tip off a violent political revolution in the US.


The Governor warned against the Demonstration on May 4th, yet they held
it anyhow. When the crowd was ordered to disperse, they ignored the
demand. Tear gas was used to disperse the crowd, but it was only thrown
back at the Guardsmen. A crowd of 1000 students pursued a retreating
group of 70 armed Guardsmen...and the Guardsmen opened fire.

WTF did they think would happen when they started pursuing *armed*
Guardsmen with rocks, tear gas canisters, and other projectiles?

It's sad that 3 of the 4 who were killed appear to have been "observers",
rather than participants. But the blood of those three is on the hands
of the 1000's of demonstrators who incited the defensive response from
the Guardsmen.



Someone (Gov. Rhodes?) decided to allow the troops to use real bullets.
What a brilliant idea.....NOT!

No one deserved to be shot. No one deserved to be killed.

One can control a crowd with other means......rubber bullets, horses,
water cannons. All those options were available.

You also have to understand the sentiment about the war at that stage in
time, especially amongst college students.

Did you live through this experience NOYB....how old were you in 1970?


By horses I of course mean troops riding horses to control crowds. Very
popular and effective by the New Orleans police during the Mardi Gras
season. You don't screw with an animal weighing 5 times more than you. ;-)

On Wed, 4 May 2005 16:25:43 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...
To the 4 students killed at Kent State on May 4, 1970, may you continue
to rest in peace.

http://kent.state.tripod.com/

Peace? If they were acting peacefully, they wouldn't have been shot. How
many students who stayed in their rooms studying were shot that day?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm?



Just out of curiosity....how old were you when the event happened?


I was 26. I'd been back from Vietnam for a little over 4 months. At the time, my
sympathies were with the National Guard. Now I see it as a tragic event, but it
took a lot of time for that to happen.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

On Wed, 4 May 2005 17:44:19 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...
To the 4 students killed at Kent State on May 4, 1970, may you continue
to rest in peace.

http://kent.state.tripod.com/

Peace? If they were acting peacefully, they wouldn't have been shot.
How many students who stayed in their rooms studying were shot that day?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm?



Yeah sure.....unarmed students deserved to be shot dead.

Where the hell is your head NOYB?

Two days before the shootings, the demonstrators burned down the ROTC
building, and then pelted the cops and firefighters with rocks, and
slashed the firehoses with knives.

Biker groups showed up, store windows were smashed, and shops were looted.
There was talk about "revolutionaries" showing up to destroy the campus
and city and tip off a violent political revolution in the US.


The Governor warned against the Demonstration on May 4th, yet they held it
anyhow. When the crowd was ordered to disperse, they ignored the demand.
Tear gas was used to disperse the crowd, but it was only thrown back at
the Guardsmen. A crowd of 1000 students pursued a retreating group of 70
armed Guardsmen...and the Guardsmen opened fire.

WTF did they think would happen when they started pursuing *armed*
Guardsmen with rocks, tear gas canisters, and other projectiles?

It's sad that 3 of the 4 who were killed appear to have been "observers",
rather than participants. But the blood of those three is on the hands of
the 1000's of demonstrators who incited the defensive response from the
Guardsmen.



Someone (Gov. Rhodes?) decided to allow the troops to use real bullets.
What a brilliant idea.....NOT!

No one deserved to be shot. No one deserved to be killed.

One can control a crowd with other means......rubber bullets, horses, water
cannons. All those options were available.

You also have to understand the sentiment about the war at that stage in
time, especially amongst college students.

Did you live through this experience NOYB....how old were you in 1970?


Having been involved in riot control training, I can say that we did *not* have
rubber bullets for the M-14. Maybe they exist for the M-16 now, but I've not
heard of them.

Nor is the National Guard issued horses for riot control. Perhaps the police had
them, but if the police could have handled the problem, why were the Guard
called out?
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

On Wed, 4 May 2005 18:23:16 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...
To the 4 students killed at Kent State on May 4, 1970, may you
continue to rest in peace.

http://kent.state.tripod.com/

Peace? If they were acting peacefully, they wouldn't have been shot.
How many students who stayed in their rooms studying were shot that
day? Hmmmmmmmmmmm?



Yeah sure.....unarmed students deserved to be shot dead.

Where the hell is your head NOYB?

Two days before the shootings, the demonstrators burned down the ROTC
building, and then pelted the cops and firefighters with rocks, and
slashed the firehoses with knives.

Biker groups showed up, store windows were smashed, and shops were
looted. There was talk about "revolutionaries" showing up to destroy the
campus and city and tip off a violent political revolution in the US.


The Governor warned against the Demonstration on May 4th, yet they held
it anyhow. When the crowd was ordered to disperse, they ignored the
demand. Tear gas was used to disperse the crowd, but it was only thrown
back at the Guardsmen. A crowd of 1000 students pursued a retreating
group of 70 armed Guardsmen...and the Guardsmen opened fire.

WTF did they think would happen when they started pursuing *armed*
Guardsmen with rocks, tear gas canisters, and other projectiles?

It's sad that 3 of the 4 who were killed appear to have been "observers",
rather than participants. But the blood of those three is on the hands
of the 1000's of demonstrators who incited the defensive response from
the Guardsmen.



Someone (Gov. Rhodes?) decided to allow the troops to use real bullets.
What a brilliant idea.....NOT!

No one deserved to be shot. No one deserved to be killed.

One can control a crowd with other means......rubber bullets, horses,
water cannons. All those options were available.

You also have to understand the sentiment about the war at that stage in
time, especially amongst college students.

Did you live through this experience NOYB....how old were you in 1970?


By horses I of course mean troops riding horses to control crowds. Very
popular and effective by the New Orleans police during the Mardi Gras
season. You don't screw with an animal weighing 5 times more than you. ;-)


The rioters at Kent State were not your typical Mardi Gras happy-go-lucky,
inebriated crowd.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 May 2005 16:25:43 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...
To the 4 students killed at Kent State on May 4, 1970, may you continue
to rest in peace.

http://kent.state.tripod.com/

Peace? If they were acting peacefully, they wouldn't have been shot.
How
many students who stayed in their rooms studying were shot that day?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm?



Just out of curiosity....how old were you when the event happened?


I was 26. I'd been back from Vietnam for a little over 4 months. At the
time, my
sympathies were with the National Guard. Now I see it as a tragic event,
but it
took a lot of time for that to happen.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

I think most folks now feel the same way John. The problem is that most
folks, at the time, did not. And many were vocal in their beliefs.

I can understand how that made you and the other Vets returning felt. I am
ashamed of the way you were treated though.

You, and all the returning military, should have been honored and respected.

It was not your war. I was not your decision to go to war.

You were only following commands.

I respect you and thank you for your service Sir.

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 May 2005 17:44:19 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...
To the 4 students killed at Kent State on May 4, 1970, may you
continue
to rest in peace.

http://kent.state.tripod.com/

Peace? If they were acting peacefully, they wouldn't have been shot.
How many students who stayed in their rooms studying were shot that
day?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm?



Yeah sure.....unarmed students deserved to be shot dead.

Where the hell is your head NOYB?

Two days before the shootings, the demonstrators burned down the ROTC
building, and then pelted the cops and firefighters with rocks, and
slashed the firehoses with knives.

Biker groups showed up, store windows were smashed, and shops were
looted.
There was talk about "revolutionaries" showing up to destroy the campus
and city and tip off a violent political revolution in the US.


The Governor warned against the Demonstration on May 4th, yet they held
it
anyhow. When the crowd was ordered to disperse, they ignored the
demand.
Tear gas was used to disperse the crowd, but it was only thrown back at
the Guardsmen. A crowd of 1000 students pursued a retreating group of
70
armed Guardsmen...and the Guardsmen opened fire.

WTF did they think would happen when they started pursuing *armed*
Guardsmen with rocks, tear gas canisters, and other projectiles?

It's sad that 3 of the 4 who were killed appear to have been
"observers",
rather than participants. But the blood of those three is on the hands
of
the 1000's of demonstrators who incited the defensive response from the
Guardsmen.



Someone (Gov. Rhodes?) decided to allow the troops to use real bullets.
What a brilliant idea.....NOT!

No one deserved to be shot. No one deserved to be killed.

One can control a crowd with other means......rubber bullets, horses,
water
cannons. All those options were available.

You also have to understand the sentiment about the war at that stage in
time, especially amongst college students.

Did you live through this experience NOYB....how old were you in 1970?


Having been involved in riot control training, I can say that we did *not*
have
rubber bullets for the M-14. Maybe they exist for the M-16 now, but I've
not
heard of them.

Nor is the National Guard issued horses for riot control. Perhaps the
police had
them, but if the police could have handled the problem, why were the Guard
called out?
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

No one is blaming the reserve troops.....they did what they were ordered to
do. The blame goes to the person actually ordering the troops to use live
ammo.

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 May 2005 17:44:19 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...
To the 4 students killed at Kent State on May 4, 1970, may you
continue
to rest in peace.

http://kent.state.tripod.com/

Peace? If they were acting peacefully, they wouldn't have been shot.
How many students who stayed in their rooms studying were shot that
day?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm?



Yeah sure.....unarmed students deserved to be shot dead.

Where the hell is your head NOYB?

Two days before the shootings, the demonstrators burned down the ROTC
building, and then pelted the cops and firefighters with rocks, and
slashed the firehoses with knives.

Biker groups showed up, store windows were smashed, and shops were
looted.
There was talk about "revolutionaries" showing up to destroy the campus
and city and tip off a violent political revolution in the US.


The Governor warned against the Demonstration on May 4th, yet they held
it
anyhow. When the crowd was ordered to disperse, they ignored the
demand.
Tear gas was used to disperse the crowd, but it was only thrown back at
the Guardsmen. A crowd of 1000 students pursued a retreating group of
70
armed Guardsmen...and the Guardsmen opened fire.

WTF did they think would happen when they started pursuing *armed*
Guardsmen with rocks, tear gas canisters, and other projectiles?

It's sad that 3 of the 4 who were killed appear to have been
"observers",
rather than participants. But the blood of those three is on the hands
of
the 1000's of demonstrators who incited the defensive response from the
Guardsmen.



Someone (Gov. Rhodes?) decided to allow the troops to use real bullets.
What a brilliant idea.....NOT!

No one deserved to be shot. No one deserved to be killed.

One can control a crowd with other means......rubber bullets, horses,
water
cannons. All those options were available.

You also have to understand the sentiment about the war at that stage in
time, especially amongst college students.

Did you live through this experience NOYB....how old were you in 1970?


Having been involved in riot control training, I can say that we did *not*
have
rubber bullets for the M-14. Maybe they exist for the M-16 now, but I've
not
heard of them.

Nor is the National Guard issued horses for riot control. Perhaps the
police had
them, but if the police could have handled the problem, why were the Guard
called out?
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

John, I know you served and I say "Thank you Sir" for that.

Please do not get the wrong idea on my post.

Jim

On Wed, 4 May 2005 19:59:27 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"John H" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 4 May 2005 16:25:43 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"NOYB" wrote in message
thlink.net...

"JimH" wrote in message
...
To the 4 students killed at Kent State on May 4, 1970, may you continue
to rest in peace.

http://kent.state.tripod.com/

Peace? If they were acting peacefully, they wouldn't have been shot.
How
many students who stayed in their rooms studying were shot that day?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm?



Just out of curiosity....how old were you when the event happened?


I was 26. I'd been back from Vietnam for a little over 4 months. At the
time, my
sympathies were with the National Guard. Now I see it as a tragic event,
but it
took a lot of time for that to happen.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

I think most folks now feel the same way John. The problem is that most
folks, at the time, did not. And many were vocal in their beliefs.

I can understand how that made you and the other Vets returning felt. I am
ashamed of the way you were treated though.

You, and all the returning military, should have been honored and respected.

It was not your war. I was not your decision to go to war.

You were only following commands.

I respect you and thank you for your service Sir.


You're most welcome. Thanks for the kind words.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

On Wed, 04 May 2005 20:03:41 -0400, JimH wrote:


No one is blaming the reserve troops.....they did what they were ordered
to do. The blame goes to the person actually ordering the troops to use
live ammo.

While the Kent State shootings were a tragedy for all concerned, the
investigation afterwords is truly an embarrassment for this country. In
the bitter divisiveness of that time, the search for any truth took a
backseat.

http://members.aol.com/nrbooks/chronol.htm

For those that are interested, a rather comprehensive site covering the
incident:

http://www.may4archive.org/index.shtml