Well Harry, here is more proof that your unions have made more disasters for
the west. You show your ignorance by even mentioning Bush after this
article. It is clearly obvious that this is a result of unions and labor
here in the west. Bush has never belonged to a union, he is a conservative,
who are typically not associated with unions (of course there are some
conservatives on unions).
Teachers and unions, full blame for this.







"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Number of Mass Layoffs Rose Sharply in January
2,400 Employers Let Go 50 or More

By Kirstin Downey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 26, 2004; Page E02

More than 2,400 employers across the country reported laying off 50 or
more workers in January, the third-highest number of so-called mass
layoffs since the government became tracking them a decade ago.

Only in December 2000 and December 2002 were the number of large layoffs
higher. A total of 239,454 workers lost their jobs in the January
layoffs, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported yesterday, based on
unemployment insurance claims filed with state employment agencies.
Among them were 17,544 temporary workers.

The total jobs lost in January was the most since November 2002, when
240,171 workers were let go in groups of 50 or more. Manufacturing
workers, particularly in transportation, food processing and retail
jobs, were hardest hit. The large layoffs also included 10,876
government workers, most at the state and local levels.

January often brings pink slips for workers because many employers staff
up for the holidays and lay people off after Christmas. It's also the
end of the fiscal year for many employers, making Dec. 31 a convenient
last day for terminated workers.

The report, which helps states direct retraining funds to troubled
industries, comes as continued job losses have sparked debate in the
presidential campaign. President Bush's Democratic opponents cite the
administration's poor job-growth performance as a reason he should be
unseated. Administration officials counter that the positive stock
market performance, the uptick in manufacturing orders and improved
consumer confidence should soon translate into employment growth.

*The administration tried in late 2002 to cease publication of the mass
layoff report, citing its cost. But Congress restored funding after
state officials complained.*

(You gotta love that part...the Bush Administration figured if no one
knew...well, no one would know... HK)

California, the most populous state, had the most mass layoffs, 576,
according to the BLS data. This was followed by 194 in New York, 171 in
Michigan and 167 in Pennsylvania. In Virginia, 24 employers laid off 50
or more workers, affecting 3,061 jobs. In Maryland, 19 employers did so,
with 2,009 jobs lost. No mass layoffs occurred in the District.

"California has continued to lose jobs in recent months," including
food-processing, film production and education jobs lost to budget cuts,
said Howard Roth, chief economist for the California Department of
Finance. "Our labor market is not showing any signs of improving."

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:51:09 -0500, " Tuuk"
wrote:

Well Harry, here is more proof that your unions have made more disasters for
the west. You show your ignorance by even mentioning Bush after this
article. It is clearly obvious that this is a result of unions and labor
here in the west. Bush has never belonged to a union, he is a conservative,
who are typically not associated with unions (of course there are some
conservatives on unions).
Teachers and unions, full blame for this.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Number of Mass Layoffs Rose Sharply in January
2,400 Employers Let Go 50 or More

By Kirstin Downey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 26, 2004; Page E02

More than 2,400 employers across the country reported laying off 50 or
more workers in January, the third-highest number of so-called mass
layoffs since the government became tracking them a decade ago.
Snipped

How the hell are teachers responsible for this??

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

John H wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:51:09 -0500, " Tuuk"
wrote:

Well Harry, here is more proof that your unions have made more disasters for
the west. You show your ignorance by even mentioning Bush after this
article. It is clearly obvious that this is a result of unions and labor
here in the west. Bush has never belonged to a union, he is a conservative,
who are typically not associated with unions (of course there are some
conservatives on unions).
Teachers and unions, full blame for this.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Number of Mass Layoffs Rose Sharply in January
2,400 Employers Let Go 50 or More

By Kirstin Downey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 26, 2004; Page E02

More than 2,400 employers across the country reported laying off 50 or
more workers in January, the third-highest number of so-called mass
layoffs since the government became tracking them a decade ago.
Snipped

How the hell are teachers responsible for this??

John H

I agree, just because SOME part time daycare type of substitute
teachers are dumber than their students, doesn't mean they are to
blame!

On 27 Feb 2004 10:27:49 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

John H wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:51:09 -0500, " Tuuk"
wrote:

Well Harry, here is more proof that your unions have made more disasters for
the west. You show your ignorance by even mentioning Bush after this
article. It is clearly obvious that this is a result of unions and labor
here in the west. Bush has never belonged to a union, he is a conservative,
who are typically not associated with unions (of course there are some
conservatives on unions).
Teachers and unions, full blame for this.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Number of Mass Layoffs Rose Sharply in January
2,400 Employers Let Go 50 or More

By Kirstin Downey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 26, 2004; Page E02

More than 2,400 employers across the country reported laying off 50 or
more workers in January, the third-highest number of so-called mass
layoffs since the government became tracking them a decade ago.
Snipped

How the hell are teachers responsible for this??

John H

I agree, just because SOME part time daycare type of substitute
teachers are dumber than their students, doesn't mean they are to
blame!

Amen to that!

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

No,, my comments are in regards to the unionized teachers in the west who
every single year strike right before exam time and have ruined so many
students education because of their own greed. Teachers here in the west are
similar to labor unions. So uncompetitive and selfish and failures.
I see it at the university levels. Domestic students are entering the
universities without being able to read or write properly. They have no
learning skills and are forcing the university system to reduce the load as
to not embarrass the students and universities with the low scores.
The international student who wishes to study in the west simply does
circles around our domestic students. Circles. Many universities now have to
separate the two students as they are at different levels. I am constantly
asked to advise students and I say the same thing,,,, finish your degrees
over there. Their education system over there in the East for example is
unbelievably better than ours. The tuition fees are what one of our text
books costs for a term and their text books are about 2 dollars Canadian.
Now,, before you say something stupid. Their text books are written by the
same publishers as here, yet our university students will pay around 125
U.S. for the exact same text book, from same publisher, looks identical yet
they will pay about 1.50 U.S. for it. Only difference is the language it is
written in.
Now, the teachers there are real, they are respected by the students, no
first name basis, no cell phones ringing in class, homework must be done and
they are not simply given A+ for attendance as they do in the west.

So, the teachers are similar here in the west to the lazy slob union
workers, same mentality and when the teachers cry,,, the students suffer,,,
forcing the west even further to an uncompetitive position globally.
Teachers in the west make around 50,000 per year, they have summers off,
they have all holidays off, and they work from say 9am to 3pm. Many spares
during the day also. Don't give me any of your **** like '"marking tests in
the evening"' give your stupid heads a shake for that one,,, or "" hours of
preparation time""' ya for smoking or drugs,,, or ""coaching a football
team''"

No,, teachers here in the west have systematically ruined the future for us
here in the west. We now have to rely on immigration for long term survival.
Just look at Canada's immigration policy for proof. Canada aims to get
500,000 immigrants every year. Canada needs this. Canada needs imputs of
knowledge, skills, technology,, and especially taxpayers. Last year Canada
only received 247,000 immigrants and this is a concern.
So at the governmental level, there is a recognition of ignorant labor here
already, unions and teachers have an effect that is visible so we are
counting on immigration to save our asses. Thanks to all you union dummies.






"John H" wrote in message
...
On 27 Feb 2004 10:27:49 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

John H wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:51:09 -0500, " Tuuk"
wrote:

Well Harry, here is more proof that your unions have made more
disasters for
the west. You show your ignorance by even mentioning Bush after this
article. It is clearly obvious that this is a result of unions and
labor
here in the west. Bush has never belonged to a union, he is a
conservative,
who are typically not associated with unions (of course there are some
conservatives on unions).
Teachers and unions, full blame for this.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Number of Mass Layoffs Rose Sharply in January
2,400 Employers Let Go 50 or More

By Kirstin Downey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 26, 2004; Page E02

More than 2,400 employers across the country reported laying off 50
or
more workers in January, the third-highest number of so-called mass
layoffs since the government became tracking them a decade ago.
Snipped

How the hell are teachers responsible for this??

John H

I agree, just because SOME part time daycare type of substitute
teachers are dumber than their students, doesn't mean they are to
blame!

Amen to that!

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:37:06 -0500, " Tuuk"
wrote:

No,, my comments are in regards to the unionized teachers in the west who
every single year strike right before exam time and have ruined so many
students education because of their own greed. Teachers here in the west are
similar to labor unions. So uncompetitive and selfish and failures.
I see it at the university levels. Domestic students are entering the
universities without being able to read or write properly. They have no
learning skills and are forcing the university system to reduce the load as
to not embarrass the students and universities with the low scores.
The international student who wishes to study in the west simply does
circles around our domestic students. Circles. Many universities now have to
separate the two students as they are at different levels. I am constantly
asked to advise students and I say the same thing,,,, finish your degrees
over there. Their education system over there in the East for example is
unbelievably better than ours. The tuition fees are what one of our text
books costs for a term and their text books are about 2 dollars Canadian.
Now,, before you say something stupid. Their text books are written by the
same publishers as here, yet our university students will pay around 125
U.S. for the exact same text book, from same publisher, looks identical yet
they will pay about 1.50 U.S. for it. Only difference is the language it is
written in.
Now, the teachers there are real, they are respected by the students, no
first name basis, no cell phones ringing in class, homework must be done and
they are not simply given A+ for attendance as they do in the west.

So, the teachers are similar here in the west to the lazy slob union
workers, same mentality and when the teachers cry,,, the students suffer,,,
forcing the west even further to an uncompetitive position globally.
Teachers in the west make around 50,000 per year, they have summers off,
they have all holidays off, and they work from say 9am to 3pm. Many spares
during the day also. Don't give me any of your **** like '"marking tests in
the evening"' give your stupid heads a shake for that one,,, or "" hours of
preparation time""' ya for smoking or drugs,,, or ""coaching a football
team''"

No,, teachers here in the west have systematically ruined the future for us
here in the west. We now have to rely on immigration for long term survival.
Just look at Canada's immigration policy for proof. Canada aims to get
500,000 immigrants every year. Canada needs this. Canada needs imputs of
knowledge, skills, technology,, and especially taxpayers. Last year Canada
only received 247,000 immigrants and this is a concern.
So at the governmental level, there is a recognition of ignorant labor here
already, unions and teachers have an effect that is visible so we are
counting on immigration to save our asses. Thanks to all you union dummies.

Whew! What a rant. You seem to be strictly in a 'blame teacher' mode,
so I'm not about to address your whole post.

Teaching is *not* a 9 to 3 job.

Yes, many domestic students are entering universities without the
required abilities. Why? Why do the universities allow their entry? By
accepting students at the bottom of the heap, the universities must
either ensure the failure of the students or 'dumb down' the courses
so the students pass. Why accept the students in the first place?
Doing so simply removes any incentive for student effort in high
school.

What is there about the educational system in the East that you find
so enticing? Could it be that the students get 'tracked' into a
university or vocational track early on? Would this concept cause
parents to be interested in the educational process?

That's enough for now.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

"'"What is there about the educational system in the East that you find
so enticing? Could it be that the students get 'tracked' into a
university or vocational track early on? Would this concept cause
parents to be interested in the educational process? "'"

What impressed me the most was at the universities I visited in some Asian
countries their ability to control the student and obtain respect. Students
there enjoyed going to school all year round, only had October off so there
was much more time spent in the learning environment for the student.
Students were required dress codes or uniforms, and that learning
environment was under the control of the teacher or professor. No first name
basis as with professor/student relationships here, always addressed with
respect.
Your very right about the "dumbing down" the programs here. There they are
forced to learn, if they do not pass their required measurement tests, they
will repeat.
I had a student I helped and was looking over their report card, I had to
mention the number of B or C+ they had. The student laughed at me and stated
that over there they are not given their A's like they are over here. Every
international student I know over here is doing circles around our domestic
student.
Not just the difference in the student is what I admire about their
education system, it is also the difference in the educator's attitude or
mission. There it is more focus on the student. Here the educator is more
focused on themselves today. It is all about the teacher. Especially at the
high school or middle school levels. Its all about money, less work time,
less class time, less activity time and this all harms the student. In
Ontario for example, they have a big crunch of financials trickling
downwards towards everyone and including the teachers, how the school
systems "re-engineered" was to keep their remunerations the same if not add
more, reduce their hours, took away money for new books and trips and after
hour sports. Now the schools are forcing the students to go door to door
after school to sell chocolate bars to raise money. The money these kids
earn selling chocolate bars goes to fund the teachers, not new books and not
trips like they used to.
An entire different focus, there in the East, the focus is genuinely geared
towards the student and the students success, here it is the job of the
teachers that is the focus and the students are going backwards and it is
embarrassing globally. Of course the students there wish to come here to
finish grad degrees because they believe it may lead to a job here in the
west, which would mean better money, but they all laugh and say that the
grad degree here is a joke. Not to mention the difference in costs.










"John H" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:37:06 -0500, " Tuuk"
wrote:

No,, my comments are in regards to the unionized teachers in the west who
every single year strike right before exam time and have ruined so many
students education because of their own greed. Teachers here in the west
are
similar to labor unions. So uncompetitive and selfish and failures.
I see it at the university levels. Domestic students are entering the
universities without being able to read or write properly. They have no
learning skills and are forcing the university system to reduce the load
as
to not embarrass the students and universities with the low scores.
The international student who wishes to study in the west simply does
circles around our domestic students. Circles. Many universities now have
to
separate the two students as they are at different levels. I am
constantly
asked to advise students and I say the same thing,,,, finish your degrees
over there. Their education system over there in the East for example is
unbelievably better than ours. The tuition fees are what one of our text
books costs for a term and their text books are about 2 dollars Canadian.
Now,, before you say something stupid. Their text books are written by
the
same publishers as here, yet our university students will pay around 125
U.S. for the exact same text book, from same publisher, looks identical
yet
they will pay about 1.50 U.S. for it. Only difference is the language it
is
written in.
Now, the teachers there are real, they are respected by the students, no
first name basis, no cell phones ringing in class, homework must be done
and
they are not simply given A+ for attendance as they do in the west.

So, the teachers are similar here in the west to the lazy slob union
workers, same mentality and when the teachers cry,,, the students
suffer,,,
forcing the west even further to an uncompetitive position globally.
Teachers in the west make around 50,000 per year, they have summers off,
they have all holidays off, and they work from say 9am to 3pm. Many
spares
during the day also. Don't give me any of your **** like '"marking tests
in
the evening"' give your stupid heads a shake for that one,,, or "" hours
of
preparation time""' ya for smoking or drugs,,, or ""coaching a football
team''"

No,, teachers here in the west have systematically ruined the future for
us
here in the west. We now have to rely on immigration for long term
survival.
Just look at Canada's immigration policy for proof. Canada aims to get
500,000 immigrants every year. Canada needs this. Canada needs imputs of
knowledge, skills, technology,, and especially taxpayers. Last year
Canada
only received 247,000 immigrants and this is a concern.
So at the governmental level, there is a recognition of ignorant labor
here
already, unions and teachers have an effect that is visible so we are
counting on immigration to save our asses. Thanks to all you union
dummies.

Whew! What a rant. You seem to be strictly in a 'blame teacher' mode,
so I'm not about to address your whole post.

Teaching is *not* a 9 to 3 job.

Yes, many domestic students are entering universities without the
required abilities. Why? Why do the universities allow their entry? By
accepting students at the bottom of the heap, the universities must
either ensure the failure of the students or 'dumb down' the courses
so the students pass. Why accept the students in the first place?
Doing so simply removes any incentive for student effort in high
school.

What is there about the educational system in the East that you find
so enticing? Could it be that the students get 'tracked' into a
university or vocational track early on? Would this concept cause
parents to be interested in the educational process?

That's enough for now.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:02:40 -0500, " Tuuk"
wrote:





"'"What is there about the educational system in the East that you find
so enticing? Could it be that the students get 'tracked' into a
university or vocational track early on? Would this concept cause
parents to be interested in the educational process? "'"

What impressed me the most was at the universities I visited in some Asian
countries their ability to control the student and obtain respect. Students
there enjoyed going to school all year round, only had October off so there
was much more time spent in the learning environment for the student.
Students were required dress codes or uniforms, and that learning
environment was under the control of the teacher or professor. No first name
basis as with professor/student relationships here, always addressed with
respect.
Your very right about the "dumbing down" the programs here. There they are
forced to learn, if they do not pass their required measurement tests, they
will repeat.
I had a student I helped and was looking over their report card, I had to
mention the number of B or C+ they had. The student laughed at me and stated
that over there they are not given their A's like they are over here. Every
international student I know over here is doing circles around our domestic
student.
Not just the difference in the student is what I admire about their
education system, it is also the difference in the educator's attitude or
mission. There it is more focus on the student. Here the educator is more
focused on themselves today. It is all about the teacher. Especially at the
high school or middle school levels. Its all about money, less work time,
less class time, less activity time and this all harms the student. In
Ontario for example, they have a big crunch of financials trickling
downwards towards everyone and including the teachers, how the school
systems "re-engineered" was to keep their remunerations the same if not add
more, reduce their hours, took away money for new books and trips and after
hour sports. Now the schools are forcing the students to go door to door
after school to sell chocolate bars to raise money. The money these kids
earn selling chocolate bars goes to fund the teachers, not new books and not
trips like they used to.
An entire different focus, there in the East, the focus is genuinely geared
towards the student and the students success, here it is the job of the
teachers that is the focus and the students are going backwards and it is
embarrassing globally. Of course the students there wish to come here to
finish grad degrees because they believe it may lead to a job here in the
west, which would mean better money, but they all laugh and say that the
grad degree here is a joke. Not to mention the difference in costs.


In your discussion, are you referring to university teachers or
middle- and high school teachers. The two groups are not comparable,
and I cannot comment on the workload or qualifications of university
level teachers/professors. The one I remember most was my math
professor, Dr. Hartley, who did very little work. He made it clear
that we were old enough to learn for ourselves, and he busted our
butts with homework.

Secondly, are you referring to public or private schools? Have you
ever been a middle or high school teacher in a public school? I taught
for ten years in a public secondary (middle and high) school. Our
biggest complaints were class size and discipline problems. Students
did have a magazine drive, but the money sure didn't go into teachers'
pockets. It was used for computers, printers, and various supplies.
When you make statements like, "It's all about money, less work time,
less class time...," I get the idea you've never taught.

I retired from the Army, went to school, and became a teacher. I was
totally impressed with 95% of the teachers with whom I worked. Yes,
maybe one out of twenty had an attitude problem. Perhaps it is that 5%
you have in mind with all your negative comments.

Japanese teachers are very well paid, as compared to American
teachers. Here is a quote from an Indiana University web site about
the Japanese educational system:

"Many American public high schools are comprehensive. While there are
a few comprehensive high schools in Japan, they are not popular.
Between 75 and 80 percent of all Japanese students enroll in
university preparation tracks. Most university-bound students attend
separate academic high schools while students who definitely do not
plan on higher education attend separate commercial or industrial high
schools. In the United States, students enter secondary schools based
on either school district assignment or personal choice. In Japan, the
overwhelming majority of students are admitted to both high school and
university primarily based upon entrance examination performance. The
best Japanese high schools and universities require high entrance
examination scores.

Notice the last two sentences in the above paragraph. Japanese
students are admitted to high schools based on entrance examinations.
This means that the years leading up to this examination are very
important in determining the educational (and employment) future of
the student. It also means that parents are extremely concerned with
their children's performance in elementary and middle schools! The
system is very similar in Germany. In order to get into a 'state'
sponsored university they must have gone to a high school which is
'university tracked' as opposed to 'vocational tracked'.

We have nothing like this in the US. Here we give everyone 'equal
access' to everything, and it hurts the educational process
tremendously.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

" Tuuk" wrote in message
...




"'"What is there about the educational system in the East that you find
so enticing? Could it be that the students get 'tracked' into a
university or vocational track early on? Would this concept cause
parents to be interested in the educational process? "'"

What impressed me the most was at the universities I visited in some Asian
countries their ability to control the student and obtain respect.
Students
there enjoyed going to school all year round, only had October off so
there
was much more time spent in the learning environment for the student.
Students were required dress codes or uniforms, and that learning
environment was under the control of the teacher or professor. No first
name
basis as with professor/student relationships here, always addressed with
respect.
Your very right about the "dumbing down" the programs here. There they are
forced to learn, if they do not pass their required measurement tests,
they
will repeat.
I had a student I helped and was looking over their report card, I had to
mention the number of B or C+ they had. The student laughed at me and
stated
that over there they are not given their A's like they are over here.
Every
international student I know over here is doing circles around our
domestic
student.
Not just the difference in the student is what I admire about their
education system, it is also the difference in the educator's attitude or
mission. There it is more focus on the student. Here the educator is more
focused on themselves today. It is all about the teacher. Especially at
the
high school or middle school levels. Its all about money, less work time,
less class time, less activity time and this all harms the student. In
Ontario for example, they have a big crunch of financials trickling
downwards towards everyone and including the teachers, how the school
systems "re-engineered" was to keep their remunerations the same if not
add
more, reduce their hours, took away money for new books and trips and
after
hour sports. Now the schools are forcing the students to go door to door
after school to sell chocolate bars to raise money. The money these kids
earn selling chocolate bars goes to fund the teachers, not new books and
not
trips like they used to.
An entire different focus, there in the East, the focus is genuinely
geared
towards the student and the students success, here it is the job of the
teachers that is the focus and the students are going backwards and it is
embarrassing globally. Of course the students there wish to come here to
finish grad degrees because they believe it may lead to a job here in the
west, which would mean better money, but they all laugh and say that the
grad degree here is a joke. Not to mention the difference in costs.
snip

Tuuk,

I have to agree with the bulk of your observations. The difference between
education and cultures in the east and west includes a few things you did
not mention.

When I train engineers in the east I notice a curious difference in the
students.

It is true that they are chock-full of facts. I have been astounded from
time to time at the ready grasp they have on a depth and breadth of
concepts.

It is equally true that they are profoundly lacking in troubleshooting
skills. I have been asked for the "troubleshooting procedure" in several
countries. This is from trained engineers who have attended more years of
post-secondary education then I have. The failure of creative combination
and application of facts seems to be the source of the problem.

The only conclusion I can come to is that they have become good at
memorizing and repeating facts, but not in learning how to apply them.

If there really is anything to my observations, it would go a long way
towards explaining why you don't see a lot of new inventions coming out of
Asia. What you *do* see is very methodical refinements of inventions created
in the west. The chaotic and undisciplined western students do have certain
creative advantages over the hardworking Asian students.

There is hope for the Asian schooled student - attending universities in the
USA does loosen a few up to new ways of thinking. Perhaps it provides the
best of both worlds!

I am not surprised that you would personally align yourself to the party
that does not value questioning of the "facts" presented by authority
figures. It seems part and parcel of the Asian mentality.

Have a nice day.

Mark Browne

Thanks to John & Mark for 'enlightening' Tuuk.
I have a number of cousins who are teachers and they are all decent,
hardworking individuals who care for their charges.
When our skipper was going out with a teacher, we sometimes would have 4 or
5 with us as sailing crew. They were great to have on board, and all seemed
to care a great deal about the state of our education system.
A lack of resources and support from administrators & some parents seemed to
be the problem area.
When my boys were in grade school, the 'holistic approach was all the rage.
Certain parents also sued for the right for their disruptive, mentally
handicapped children to attend regular school with their age peers and there
is also a reluctance to 'fail' students...so quite often they are passed on
without actually passing the grade they left.
I wonder if all this contributed to our lower scores in my province?


Mark Browne wrote in message
news:Xv60c.141487$jk2.569081@attbi_s53...

" Tuuk" wrote in message
...




"'"What is there about the educational system in the East that you find
so enticing? Could it be that the students get 'tracked' into a
university or vocational track early on? Would this concept cause
parents to be interested in the educational process? "'"

What impressed me the most was at the universities I visited in some
Asian
countries their ability to control the student and obtain respect.
Students
there enjoyed going to school all year round, only had October off so
there
was much more time spent in the learning environment for the student.
Students were required dress codes or uniforms, and that learning
environment was under the control of the teacher or professor. No first
name
basis as with professor/student relationships here, always addressed
with
respect.
Your very right about the "dumbing down" the programs here. There they
are
forced to learn, if they do not pass their required measurement tests,
they
will repeat.
I had a student I helped and was looking over their report card, I had
to
mention the number of B or C+ they had. The student laughed at me and
stated
that over there they are not given their A's like they are over here.
Every
international student I know over here is doing circles around our
domestic
student.
Not just the difference in the student is what I admire about their
education system, it is also the difference in the educator's attitude
or
mission. There it is more focus on the student. Here the educator is
more
focused on themselves today. It is all about the teacher. Especially at
the
high school or middle school levels. Its all about money, less work
time,
less class time, less activity time and this all harms the student. In
Ontario for example, they have a big crunch of financials trickling
downwards towards everyone and including the teachers, how the school
systems "re-engineered" was to keep their remunerations the same if not
add
more, reduce their hours, took away money for new books and trips and
after
hour sports. Now the schools are forcing the students to go door to door
after school to sell chocolate bars to raise money. The money these kids
earn selling chocolate bars goes to fund the teachers, not new books and
not
trips like they used to.
An entire different focus, there in the East, the focus is genuinely
geared
towards the student and the students success, here it is the job of the
teachers that is the focus and the students are going backwards and it
is
embarrassing globally. Of course the students there wish to come here to
finish grad degrees because they believe it may lead to a job here in
the
west, which would mean better money, but they all laugh and say that the
grad degree here is a joke. Not to mention the difference in costs.
snip

Tuuk,

I have to agree with the bulk of your observations. The difference between
education and cultures in the east and west includes a few things you did
not mention.

When I train engineers in the east I notice a curious difference in the
students.

It is true that they are chock-full of facts. I have been astounded from
time to time at the ready grasp they have on a depth and breadth of
concepts.

It is equally true that they are profoundly lacking in troubleshooting
skills. I have been asked for the "troubleshooting procedure" in several
countries. This is from trained engineers who have attended more years of
post-secondary education then I have. The failure of creative combination
and application of facts seems to be the source of the problem.

The only conclusion I can come to is that they have become good at
memorizing and repeating facts, but not in learning how to apply them.

If there really is anything to my observations, it would go a long way
towards explaining why you don't see a lot of new inventions coming out of
Asia. What you *do* see is very methodical refinements of inventions
created
in the west. The chaotic and undisciplined western students do have
certain
creative advantages over the hardworking Asian students.

There is hope for the Asian schooled student - attending universities in
the
USA does loosen a few up to new ways of thinking. Perhaps it provides the
best of both worlds!

I am not surprised that you would personally align yourself to the party
that does not value questioning of the "facts" presented by authority
figures. It seems part and parcel of the Asian mentality.

Have a nice day.

Mark Browne