"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...

big snip of liebral whining

Terri would have been allowed to
pass on peacefully and gracefully a long time ago.


And this is Bush's fault how?

Clue: There is still some detritus who consider Bush to be their leader.
They drool and nod their heads in agreement every time he opens his mouth.
He should not have said one single word about the woman, and he should've
ordered his sitters and Congress to do exactly the same thing.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:48:31 -0500, "JimH" wrote:


"John H" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:51:19 GMT, "Jim," wrote:

Just like countless other families, the family of Terri Schiavo has
struggled for years with the intensely difficult decision of how to
match her course of treatment to her wishes. Now President George W.
Bush, Rep. Tom DeLay (R-TX) and Sen. Bill Frist (R-TN) are using the
tragic case of Schiavo

You seem to totally disregard the Democrats who voted for the measure (in
the
House) or allowed the measure to pass *without* objection in the Senate.
Any
good reason for that?

--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

Take a listen to the Suzanne and Bobby Schindler interviews on this site:

http://www.glennbeck.com/audio/free-audio.shtml

Maybe then you can see a different perspective of what this is all about.

There is more to this sad story than you think. Something is rotten in
Denmark.


I couldn't get Beck's interview to play, but I would imagine Schindler is saying
the same basic things he's said on multiple interviews I've watched. I don't buy
the 'homicide' allegations.

I am more inclined to buy what a whole pot full of judges have bought, that she
expressed a desire that she not be held indefinitely in this state.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:15:33 GMT, "Clams Canino" wrote:


"JimH" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
How many perspectives can there be when all the brain above the stem is
gone?

Sciavo's injury deprived the brain of oxygen. For 15 years! The stem,
at the base of the brain, controls heart and respiratory functions and
can initiate some reflexive motions. There is no capacity for thought,
for emotion, or for learning. Few people would ever look at Terri S and
say, "Please leave me in that condition for as long as I can hang on if
I ever suffer the same fate." There has been testimony from several
people that before the accident Terri had expressed a preference for
death vs. life as a vegetable if she was ever in the state that she is
in now.

Sciavo's parents may be like the retired folks we all know who turn a
household pet into a surrogate child or grandchild. Referrring to
thenselves as the dog's "Mom" or "Dad", dressing it up in goofy
clothes, and organizing daily life around its every need doesn't change
the basic fact that the dog is a dog. A dog has far more cognitive
ability than Terri Sciavo's breathing corpse has now, or will ever have
in the future.

If a miracle worker walked into her hospital room, healed her severed
spine, and turned the fluid in her skull back into functioning brain
cells she'd recover. Short of that, nothing could be done. Couldn't the
same thing be said about every one of he hundreds of thousands of
people in the same or similar situation every year? Should we keep
everybody in a persistant vegetative state and with no (reasonable)
hope of recovery alive forever, wishing and hoping for a miracle?


Did you listen to the interviews?

No one can say for sure what her mental condition is. And there are now
many questions about Michael Shiavo's past treatment of Terri.

One has to err on the side of life when dealing with human life.


Bush only said that last line so as to not **** off his big voter block.
He's trying to stay away from Schiavo overall, and leave the screaming to
others. The interviews are propaganda because the MRI's, scans, and brain
activity don't lie. If Michael is guilty of something then investigate and
punish. That doesn't change the fact that she's a breathing corpse and that
her parents and small group of supporters are in denial and desperate,
resorting even to lies to maintain "hope". This is a sad thing for all
involved.

-W

Bush wanted to ensure that she had 'due process of law'. She had it.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"JimH" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
How many perspectives can there be when all the brain above the stem is
gone?

Sciavo's injury deprived the brain of oxygen. For 15 years! The stem,
at the base of the brain, controls heart and respiratory functions and
can initiate some reflexive motions. There is no capacity for thought,
for emotion, or for learning. Few people would ever look at Terri S and
say, "Please leave me in that condition for as long as I can hang on if
I ever suffer the same fate." There has been testimony from several
people that before the accident Terri had expressed a preference for
death vs. life as a vegetable if she was ever in the state that she is
in now.

Sciavo's parents may be like the retired folks we all know who turn a
household pet into a surrogate child or grandchild. Referrring to
thenselves as the dog's "Mom" or "Dad", dressing it up in goofy
clothes, and organizing daily life around its every need doesn't change
the basic fact that the dog is a dog. A dog has far more cognitive
ability than Terri Sciavo's breathing corpse has now, or will ever have
in the future.

If a miracle worker walked into her hospital room, healed her severed
spine, and turned the fluid in her skull back into functioning brain
cells she'd recover. Short of that, nothing could be done. Couldn't the
same thing be said about every one of he hundreds of thousands of
people in the same or similar situation every year? Should we keep
everybody in a persistant vegetative state and with no (reasonable)
hope of recovery alive forever, wishing and hoping for a miracle?


Did you listen to the interviews?

No one can say for sure what her mental condition is. And there are now
many questions about Michael Shiavo's past treatment of Terri.

One has to err on the side of life when dealing with human life.



Michael Shiavo probably beat her and caused the damage. But, he has gotten
away with it. Crap happens. Blake and OJ beat the raps also. But she is a
vegetable. After 15 years, she is not going to improve. Brain scans, etc,
show she has little brain function left. Give her peace. Modern technology
can keep a body clinically alive long after it would and should be dead.
Breathing machine, pace maker, etc. Is this living?

Sounds like a great law. Why should the public pay to keep a vegetable
alive for ever when there is no hope of any recovery. It may sound cruel,
but I would much rather see the public's money, which is a limited item, be
used to help the young lady with breast cancer, who has a chance to recover,
or other illnesses that are very expensive, but curable. As opposed to
keeping a comotose, brain dead person on life support for years and years.
Bill

"Jim," wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

How many perspectives can there be when all the brain above the stem is
gone?

Sciavo's injury deprived the brain of oxygen. For 15 years! The stem,
at the base of the brain, controls heart and respiratory functions and
can initiate some reflexive motions. There is no capacity for thought,
for emotion, or for learning. Few people would ever look at Terri S and
say, "Please leave me in that condition for as long as I can hang on if
I ever suffer the same fate." There has been testimony from several
people that before the accident Terri had expressed a preference for
death vs. life as a vegetable if she was ever in the state that she is
in now.

Sciavo's parents may be like the retired folks we all know who turn a
household pet into a surrogate child or grandchild. Referrring to
thenselves as the dog's "Mom" or "Dad", dressing it up in goofy
clothes, and organizing daily life around its every need doesn't change
the basic fact that the dog is a dog. A dog has far more cognitive
ability than Terri Sciavo's breathing corpse has now, or will ever have
in the future.

If a miracle worker walked into her hospital room, healed her severed
spine, and turned the fluid in her skull back into functioning brain
cells she'd recover. Short of that, nothing could be done. Couldn't the
same thing be said about every one of he hundreds of thousands of
people in the same or similar situation every year? Should we keep
everybody in a persistant vegetative state and with no (reasonable)
hope of recovery alive forever, wishing and hoping for a miracle?



Did you listen to the interviews?

No one can say for sure what her mental condition is. And there are now
many questions about Michael Shiavo's past treatment of Terri.

One has to err on the side of life when dealing with human life.



That's why Bush and DeLay passed a law in Texas giving hospitals the
right to "pull the plug" when things look hopeless (and parents have run
out of money)

"Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining treatment,
even if a patient's family members disagree, under certain circumstances.

Under the statute, "Life-sustaining treatment" means treatment that,
based on reasonable medical judgment, sustains the life of a patient and
without which the patient will die. The term includes both
life-sustaining medications and artificial life support, such as
mechanical breathing machines, kidney dialysis treatment, and artificial
nutrition and hydration. [V.T.C.A., Health & Safety Code § 166.002]

Under the law, "A patient's inability to pay for medical care combined
with a prognosis that renders further care futile are two reasons a
hospital might suggest cutting off life support". Chief medical officer
at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, Houston.

Last week, Sun, the 17-pound, nearly 6-month-old son of Wanda Hudson was
allowed to die in Houston's Texas Children's Hospital. Sun's death marks
the first time a U.S. judge has allowed a hospital to discontinue an
infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to
bioethical experts.

Another case involving a patient on life support — a 68-year-old man in
a chronic vegetative state whose family wants to stop St. Luke's
Episcopal Hospital from turning off his ventilator — is pending in
Houston.

This statute was signed into law by then-governor George W. Bush.
Houston is in the Congressional District of GOP Whip Tom Delay. The same
Tom Delay who was the point man for the special law passed on behalf of
Terri Schiavo."

Calif Bill wrote:
Sounds like a great law. Why should the public pay to keep a vegetable
alive for ever when there is no hope of any recovery. It may sound cruel,
but I would much rather see the public's money, which is a limited item, be
used to help the young lady with breast cancer, who has a chance to recover,
or other illnesses that are very expensive, but curable. As opposed to
keeping a comotose, brain dead person on life support for years and years.
Bill

Can you explain Bush and DeLays sudden change of heart when it comes to
Terri Schiavo? Could it be political? ---- Naaaaa

"Jim," wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

wrote in message
egroups.com...


How many perspectives can there be when all the brain above the stem is
gone?

Sciavo's injury deprived the brain of oxygen. For 15 years! The stem,
at the base of the brain, controls heart and respiratory functions and
can initiate some reflexive motions. There is no capacity for thought,
for emotion, or for learning. Few people would ever look at Terri S and
say, "Please leave me in that condition for as long as I can hang on if
I ever suffer the same fate." There has been testimony from several
people that before the accident Terri had expressed a preference for
death vs. life as a vegetable if she was ever in the state that she is
in now.

Sciavo's parents may be like the retired folks we all know who turn a
household pet into a surrogate child or grandchild. Referrring to
thenselves as the dog's "Mom" or "Dad", dressing it up in goofy
clothes, and organizing daily life around its every need doesn't change
the basic fact that the dog is a dog. A dog has far more cognitive
ability than Terri Sciavo's breathing corpse has now, or will ever have
in the future.

If a miracle worker walked into her hospital room, healed her severed
spine, and turned the fluid in her skull back into functioning brain
cells she'd recover. Short of that, nothing could be done. Couldn't the
same thing be said about every one of he hundreds of thousands of
people in the same or similar situation every year? Should we keep
everybody in a persistant vegetative state and with no (reasonable)
hope of recovery alive forever, wishing and hoping for a miracle?



Did you listen to the interviews?

No one can say for sure what her mental condition is. And there are now
many questions about Michael Shiavo's past treatment of Terri.

One has to err on the side of life when dealing with human life.



That's why Bush and DeLay passed a law in Texas giving hospitals the
right to "pull the plug" when things look hopeless (and parents have run
out of money)

"Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining treatment,
even if a patient's family members disagree, under certain circumstances.

Under the statute, "Life-sustaining treatment" means treatment that,
based on reasonable medical judgment, sustains the life of a patient and
without which the patient will die. The term includes both
life-sustaining medications and artificial life support, such as
mechanical breathing machines, kidney dialysis treatment, and artificial
nutrition and hydration. [V.T.C.A., Health & Safety Code § 166.002]

Under the law, "A patient's inability to pay for medical care combined
with a prognosis that renders further care futile are two reasons a
hospital might suggest cutting off life support". Chief medical officer
at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, Houston.

Last week, Sun, the 17-pound, nearly 6-month-old son of Wanda Hudson was
allowed to die in Houston's Texas Children's Hospital. Sun's death marks
the first time a U.S. judge has allowed a hospital to discontinue an
infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to
bioethical experts.

Another case involving a patient on life support — a 68-year-old man in
a chronic vegetative state whose family wants to stop St. Luke's
Episcopal Hospital from turning off his ventilator — is pending in

Houston.

This statute was signed into law by then-governor George W. Bush.
Houston is in the Congressional District of GOP Whip Tom Delay. The same
Tom Delay who was the point man for the special law passed on behalf of
Terri Schiavo."

Calif Bill wrote:
Michael Shiavo probably beat her and caused the damage.

Boy, that's really a wild accusation. The hey, the right wing is getting
it's rocks off these days calling everybody names, so why not?

It would be just as fair to say that her parents screwed up her
childhood and that's why she was anorexic. They are certainly acting
like whackos now, insisting that she's going to get better when she
physically does not have a brain.

It appears to me that the fight is as much about the malpractice award
as about Terry Schiavo's life or lack thereof.

... ... But she is a
vegetable. After 15 years, she is not going to improve. Brain scans, etc,
show she has little brain function left. Give her peace. Modern technology
can keep a body clinically alive long after it would and should be dead.
Breathing machine, pace maker, etc. Is this living?


Agreed.

One of the issues this case raises is the validity of living wills.
These documents are often ignored. I hope that the courts will recognize
that when a person is dead, they're dead. When a person signs a legal
document attesting that they do not want life support, they should not
be kept alive as a vegetable.

Regards
Doug King

She had "due process" long before Congress stuck it's nose in. She just got
a little more "process" is all. Process over. The tube is out and if she's
truely a viable human being, then she can call Dominoes like the rest of us
do.

-W

"John H" wrote in message

Bush wanted to ensure that she had 'due process of law'. She had it.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Calif Bill wrote:
Michael Shiavo probably beat her and caused the damage.

Boy, that's really a wild accusation. The hey, the right wing is getting
it's rocks off these days calling everybody names, so why not?

It would be just as fair to say that her parents screwed up her
childhood and that's why she was anorexic. They are certainly acting
like whackos now, insisting that she's going to get better when she
physically does not have a brain.

It appears to me that the fight is as much about the malpractice award
as about Terry Schiavo's life or lack thereof.



I understand there have been suppositions for years that the original injury
was from a beating by her husband. He does appear to be a low life from his
comments and actions, not a loving husband. Seems as if the left is not
above calling names also.

F'n yes it is political. Same as the other side of the political spectrum
politician's stance. They are politicians catering to there power bases.
Bill

"Jim," wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
Sounds like a great law. Why should the public pay to keep a vegetable
alive for ever when there is no hope of any recovery. It may sound
cruel,
but I would much rather see the public's money, which is a limited item,
be
used to help the young lady with breast cancer, who has a chance to
recover,
or other illnesses that are very expensive, but curable. As opposed to
keeping a comotose, brain dead person on life support for years and
years.
Bill

Can you explain Bush and DeLays sudden change of heart when it comes to
Terri Schiavo? Could it be political? ---- Naaaaa

"Jim," wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

wrote in message
egroups.com...


How many perspectives can there be when all the brain above the stem
is
gone?

Sciavo's injury deprived the brain of oxygen. For 15 years! The stem,
at the base of the brain, controls heart and respiratory functions and
can initiate some reflexive motions. There is no capacity for thought,
for emotion, or for learning. Few people would ever look at Terri S
and
say, "Please leave me in that condition for as long as I can hang on
if
I ever suffer the same fate." There has been testimony from several
people that before the accident Terri had expressed a preference for
death vs. life as a vegetable if she was ever in the state that she is
in now.

Sciavo's parents may be like the retired folks we all know who turn a
household pet into a surrogate child or grandchild. Referrring to
thenselves as the dog's "Mom" or "Dad", dressing it up in goofy
clothes, and organizing daily life around its every need doesn't
change
the basic fact that the dog is a dog. A dog has far more cognitive
ability than Terri Sciavo's breathing corpse has now, or will ever
have
in the future.

If a miracle worker walked into her hospital room, healed her severed
spine, and turned the fluid in her skull back into functioning brain
cells she'd recover. Short of that, nothing could be done. Couldn't
the
same thing be said about every one of he hundreds of thousands of
people in the same or similar situation every year? Should we keep
everybody in a persistant vegetative state and with no (reasonable)
hope of recovery alive forever, wishing and hoping for a miracle?



Did you listen to the interviews?

No one can say for sure what her mental condition is. And there are
now
many questions about Michael Shiavo's past treatment of Terri.

One has to err on the side of life when dealing with human life.



That's why Bush and DeLay passed a law in Texas giving hospitals the
right to "pull the plug" when things look hopeless (and parents have run
out of money)

"Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining treatment,
even if a patient's family members disagree, under certain
circumstances.

Under the statute, "Life-sustaining treatment" means treatment that,
based on reasonable medical judgment, sustains the life of a patient and
without which the patient will die. The term includes both
life-sustaining medications and artificial life support, such as
mechanical breathing machines, kidney dialysis treatment, and artificial
nutrition and hydration. [V.T.C.A., Health & Safety Code § 166.002]

Under the law, "A patient's inability to pay for medical care combined
with a prognosis that renders further care futile are two reasons a
hospital might suggest cutting off life support". Chief medical officer
at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, Houston.

Last week, Sun, the 17-pound, nearly 6-month-old son of Wanda Hudson was
allowed to die in Houston's Texas Children's Hospital. Sun's death marks
the first time a U.S. judge has allowed a hospital to discontinue an
infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to
bioethical experts.

Another case involving a patient on life support — a 68-year-old man in
a chronic vegetative state whose family wants to stop St. Luke's
Episcopal Hospital from turning off his ventilator — is pending in

Houston.

This statute was signed into law by then-governor George W. Bush.
Houston is in the Congressional District of GOP Whip Tom Delay. The same
Tom Delay who was the point man for the special law passed on behalf of
Terri Schiavo."