| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
Prices of Used Boats ?!?
Hi Guys & Gals,
I'm sure you've all had experience buying boats. I'm seeking advice on how to understand used boat prices. The 2005 Guide to Powerboats has a listing of used boat prices showing Low Retail and Average Retail prices. The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat. Here is where the problem comes in: The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the price rating lists. =A4 Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push people to make higher offers? =A4 Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time buyers who don't know the market? =A4 Are the Price Guides totally off base when it comes to real market prices? I've heard that today we are in a "buyer's market". Is this a myth? Or is it only true for certain boat models/sizes/ages? Is it normal to find prices on 10-year old boats above their prices BRAND NEW in 1995 ?!? Basically, I'd like to make offers on boats which correspond to the official pricing on professional lists. Do Brokers have an obligation to communicate my offers to sellers? Can I write a seller a letter, explaining my offer, and will it reach the seller? Or will the Broker just put it in the shredder? Do I need to send it notarized and by registered mail, just to make sure it reaches the seller? Or should I hire a BUYER'S BROKER to defend my interest... and possibly jump into the snake pit? Your mystified rec.boats buddy, Rich |
Everything is negotiable. Everything. The boat's price, the brokers
commision, fees. The so-called official price guides are neither authoritative or official. You decide what amount to offer. Typical broker tactic is to dismiss your offer, attempting to shame you into offering a higher amount. That broker (think "used car sales") is merely following proven negotiating tactics. If you have not studiied negotiating tactics then you may be at their mercy. If you really really want that boat, they will smell that and play you for all they can get. Be cool. Be willing to walk away. Know prices of boats IN YOUR AREA. Snooty high-class marina areas tend to call for higher boat prices. Hope you find what you want at a good price! J wrote in news:1111388088.332314.281900 @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: The 2005 Guide to Powerboats has a listing of used boat prices showing Low Retail and Average Retail prices. The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat. Here is where the problem comes in: The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the price rating lists. ¤ Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push people to make higher offers? ¤ Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time buyers who don't know the market? ¤ Are the Price Guides totally off base when it comes to real market prices? |
Richardo wondered:
The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the price rating lists. =A4 Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push people to make higher offers? =A4 Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time buyers who don't know the market? ******************************** Used boat pricing works like this: Unless you're looking at a little trailer boat that the dealer accepted on trade, the used boats in a broker's inventory are not owned by the broker. They are consigned to the broker by the owners of the boats. The owners of the boats set the asking prices, not the consignees. The broker is expected to spend a great deal of time and no small amount of advertising money in securing a buyer for the consigned vessels. Under the typical arrangement, the broker is out of pocket for all expenses and will not be reimbursed unless he or she finds a buyer for the boat and earns a commission. For this reason, most brokers resist listing boats that are ridiculously overpriced. At the end of the listing contract period, the owner can simply say "thanks, too bad you couldn't sell my $90,000 boat for $200,000" and walk away with no further obligation to the broker. Although the sellers, not the brokers, set the asking prices most sellers have included a good bit of "negotiating" room in the asking price- fully expecting that a buyer will come along and hope to pay something less than full sticker. (Imagine that!) How much room depends on a lot of factors, but there is usually a lot more room in the initial price offered when a boat first comes to market than there will be several months later after the disappointed seller discovers that dime-a-dozen suckers aren't in season right now and the broker has finally influenced the seller to face reality with regard to likely sale price. Throw the price guidebook away. Boat prices are not only seasonal, they're regional. Boats that sell well and for high prices in Florida can go begging in the Pacific NW, and the reverse is often true as well. Your goal should not be to buy a boat at some arbitrary price printed in a guidebook, but to buy a boat at or below its current market value in your region. Here's a procedural tip for you: Find the boat you want and make an offer. No matter what amount you offer, the broker will hope to influence you to amend it to a higher number before he takes your offer to the seller. (Yes, in nearly all states the broker is required to present your *written* offer (with deposit) to the seller. The broker is not required to present "wouldja takes?" without earnest money. Cash talks, and we all know what walks.) Before caving in to the broker's demand for a higher offer, ordinarily based on a proclamation that your offer is *way below* what similar boats are selling for in your area, you can ask the broker for a little substantiation. Have the broker use his Boatwizard password on the yachtwold website and pull up the sold boat database, for your area, showing the listing and selling prices of similar boats during the last few months. If the book is way off and the market is truly higher (often the case, especially on boats that are the most suitable for use in a given location), the report will confirm that. The seller should not be expected to sell you his 34' Pileknocker for $110,000 simply because the National Automobile Dealers Association says he should, if everybody else selling the same model in your area recently has been able to command $160,000. Richardo also asked: Basically, I'd like to make offers on boats which correspond to the official pricing on professional lists. Do Brokers have an obligation to communicate my offers to sellers? Can I write a seller a letter, explaining my offer, and will it reach the seller? Or will the Broker just put it in the shredder? Do I need to send it notarized and by registered mail, just to make sure it reaches the seller? ************* Don't plan on the broker disclosing the name and address of his consignor before you have inked a finalized deal. You wouldn't do this, of course, but there are buyers who will do *anything* to get the seller's name and address from the broker simply so they can contact the seller and try to engineer some "work around" to cut the broker out of the deal, (assuming that the seller will then cut the price by at least some portion of the commission that the broker actually already earned by finding him a buyer for his boat). Sending a letter hoping to "educate" the seller about the value of the boat he is trying to sell is probably going to tick the seller off about as badly as anything you could do, save one. Try sending a letter, prior to survey, outlining all the deficiencies from which you believe his boat is suffering. That would be worse. Telling the seller, "your boat is overpriced, a piece of crap, or both" won't do much to inspire the seller to work with you to arrive at a price that is affordable to you as well as fair to him. Most of the time, that's about as well as you will really do: A price that is affordable to you, as well as fair to the seller. It isn't realistic to expect to buy a decent boat far, far, below the asking prices of any similar boat in your region simply because the NADA book says you should. One line that frustrated brokers have been known to use when extremely aggressive buyers want to start with an unrealistic book price and then dicker downward from there is "See if the guy who wrote the book has a boat for sale at that price." A final safety net, price wise. Even if you are planning to pay cash for the boat, apply for a loan. If you are really nervous about paying too much, apply for a loan at a couple of competing banks, credit unions, or marine mortgage lenders. (You can always change your mind at the last minute and pay cash instead). Lenders are usually very, very, cautious about boat loans. Boats are the first thing to be surrendered when the economy goes into a soft cycle and unemployment ticks upward, so savvy lenders will want to be sure that your boat isn't financed for a lot more than it could be resold for, maybe in a soft market. (And, of course, so will you). Marine mortage lenders, particularly, will have a front row view of local sales price trends. Some credit unions, etc, simply go by the NADA book. When I was a broker, I had an amusing conversation with a credit union loan officer once. He said, "We can't do the deal, the boat is way overpriced." "Why would you say that? We sold two almost identical boats in the last several months, one at this price and the other just a little bit more." "Our underwriting standards require us to use the NADA book if we're going to do a boat loan." "How many boat loans do you do?" "We actually haven't done a boat loan for many, many, months. Every boat on the market is pretty well overpriced right now." Final observation: If every boat price in the area is way over your guidebook numbers, please believe there is not a vast conspiracy working against you and it's not that "the rest of the army is out of step." :-) Good luck, hope you find the boat of your dreams at a fair, perhaps even advantageous, and affordable price. |
Hi J,
Got that straight - I was just wondering how negotiable - boats which sold new in 1995 for under $100k going for $55k to $105k ten years later. Could make sense in a sellers' market, but last I heard it is tough going selling boats. So far my experience with brokers is strange. One broker is very nice, ready to go to every effort to help the sale happen. Unluckily I changed my mind about that boat. The other broker is nasty, boasting about his boat's superiority (he did the custom woodwork himself) and telling me he already has a contract, but his ads have remained unchanged for the past 3 weeks since, and he won't reply to my emails. Cheers, Rich |
Hi J,
Got that straight - I was just wondering how negotiable - boats which sold new in 1995 for under $100k going for $55k to $105k ten years later. Could make sense in a sellers' market, but last I heard it is tough going selling boats. So far my experience with brokers is strange. One broker is very nice, ready to go to every effort to help the sale happen. Unluckily I changed my mind about that boat. The other broker is nasty, boasting about his boat's superiority (he did the custom woodwork himself) and telling me he already has a contract, but his ads have remained unchanged for the past 3 weeks since, and he won't reply to my emails. Cheers, Rich |
Got that straight - I was just wondering how negotiable - boats which
sold new in 1995 for under $100k going for $55k to $105k ten years later. Could make sense in a sellers' market, but last I heard it is tough going selling boats. ******************* Right now it's tough going finding enough boats to sell. Every broker I know is doing a land-office business. At least here in the Pacific NW, it is a seller's market, not a buyer's. Incredibly low interest rates and a local economy that is beginning to recover have combined to bring out the buyers. There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use). Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the fact than it did when new. I will be aboard a boat today that sold in the early 1980's, almost a quarter century ago, for about $80,000. The boat is a decent value today at $120,000. Factors involved include prices for comparable brand new boats now marked at between 300-400,000- and the observation that 120,000 2005 dollars won't buy what 80,000 dollars would have brought in 1980. |
It was written:
Everything is negotiable. Everything. The boat's price, the brokers commision, fees. ******* By the way: if the broker decides to negotiate the commission it will be with the seller (who has to pay the commission) rather than the buyer. |
wrote in message oups.com... snip...... There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use). Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the fact than it did when new. snip..... My Sandpiper 565 might be an example. Brand new when production started in 1974 a basic model cost less than $2k CDN.....last year of manufacture in 1992 ...little over $9k CDN. Used models now normally sell for $ 4500-5500 CDN and I've seen some advertised over $ 8k. |
Hi Gould,
I much appreciate your advice, I realize from the groups that you're a pro and have even worn the white shoes. grin But I'm no angry husband shooting out of the bedroom window, just a bloke looking to sink his loose change into a floating mistress, less trouble than a walking one - even if it sinks! I guess all the guidebooks and NADA and BUC etc. are way off in pricing the boat I want (used to want?) because I've only seen one that did actually sell at the guidebook price. (Got ready to arrange survey to find another guy snatch it up faster than me.) Banks which think that "every boat on the market is pretty well overpriced right now" may not have it all figured wrong. Consumers have been known to get carried away in buying stuff for far more than it is worth rationally. Modern Marketing is chock full of concepts and techniques to get people to attribute rational value to things for irrational reasons. You can argue that things are worth what you can get some people to pay - because the market sets the prices. This is why an egg is worth a million dollars to a banker in a famine. This is why a glass of water is worth a billion dollars to Bill Gates in the middle of the Sahara. But is that a reason why an egg or a glass of water are really worth that much? A given boat might be worth more to somebody else in some other situation. But its "real value" is what it is worth to you. The same holds true for Dot Com Stocks. Were they really worth as much as what some people paid for them? Ask those who lost their entire estates in the Stock Market bubble, and just maybe, ask a few who bought boats without being properly informed and prudent. I may not understand the subtleties of the used boat market, but to me, a ten year old boat is worth LESS than it cost ten years ago when new. Banks need to have foresight to avoid defaulting loans. Thus they also need hindsight and cannot allow irrational pricing to guide what they will underwrite. If these boats are really worth close to what their advertised prices are, I'm glad to hear that the used boat market isn't as rough as folks have claimed. I didn't realize that 10 year old 30 foot cruisers sold between $50k and $100k like hotcakes. The price guidebooks all put average retail at around $30k, so I guess I should either throw away the guidebooks or forget about buying a boat. 10,000 lbs of 10 year old plastic at $10 per pound, maybe I should have invested in plastic futures? Maybe it appreciates with age like old wines, getting ooohs and aaahs at every gelcoat crack like antiques with wormholes. Please don't find my irony disrespectful. When you say "Throw the price guidebook away." you must be sensitive to the fact that we know you used to be a broker. It risks smacking of selfserving logic, even if that is the furthest thing from your intentions and you no longer are active at that job. Broker has POWER. They know the market like nobody else. They have access to all the databases. They have informal networks. They've heard all the stories from colleagues on how all these pigeons come along for an expensive plucking. There's a sucker born every day, and most of them eventually want to buy a boat. They may be honest and altruistic, wishing a happy life to buyers and sellers alike. But then again they may not. And with the power advantage they have over buyers, we're in deep trouble unless prepared for the worst, even if hoping for the best. Regardless of the worth of Price Guidebooks - throw away or not - someone here isn't doing their job right, either the pricing authorities, or the brokers. Why do banks and insurance companies use them? Because they are worthless and should be thrown away? Because they only know loans and not boats? Or because they obey principles of logic in price determination, and not the going rate for a sucker? A twofold difference is a 100% error. Somebody is 100% wrong, unless each is 50% blind. How can the Owners of the boats be the ones who set the asking price? This may be true legally, but in practice, who would have the gumption to try to sell their boat for more than double book value? Obviously they are ill advised by overly greedy brokers who, by polluting the market by overpriced units, are maybe a big part of the used boat market's sales difficulties. Who else tells them what price is the right price? Nobody on commission will be happy to sell for a lower profit a boat that they can hope to hussle some innocent buyer with using the emotional appeal of a boat as bait. The sellers are thus hostage to an unethical brokerage situation. Clearly, the system is broken. I don't mean to give you a hard time, especially as you are a valued contributor to these groups and have been candid on many occasions proving your good faith. But a newbie buyer is bound to see things from a different standpoint than a seasoned seller. Maybe, just maybe, there's some sense in the counterpoint too. If having the market "controlled" by brokers isn't an ideal world, the problem remaining is that in a market dominated by brokers, those sellers who would be willing to sell at "normal" rational used boat prices take the easy road and often choose sell through professionals. Brokers then talk up their boat and flatter their egos and appeal to human greed, some say it is just to get the listing, but maybe brokers also dream of manipulating buyers into paying more? Those who are willing to take the hard path of selling their boat themselves without a broker are either very rarely doing so because they have become wise and wary of brokers. It is likely that they are folks who are even more greedy than brokers, and think the broker's overestimation of their boat is low (after all it has been enobled by their ownership, hasn't it?). They will believe that they can sucker you better than a pro, and will want more $ plus the broker's fee to boot. Not exactly ideal sellers to deal with. To resume I'm not about to make an offer on a boat at close to its ancient new price, especially when its best years are gone and NOW is when the problems are pushing their owners to unload them. They have roughly 400 hours on gas engines, and enough wear that the cosmetics will soon show that their better days are over. When I buy something new, I expect to sell it for something less down the road a decade later of wear and tear. Just possibly there is a MicroMarket for 30 foot pocket cruisers due to recent gas price hikes - are folks downsizing their boats trying to cut fuel costs? Most brokers seem to say that those bailing out of their financial shipwrecks are selling to move up to a bigger boat. Even a lame newbie like me should know better! For those of us nonetheless willing to endure a "beating" in terms of purchase costs, maintenance costs, marina costs, upgrade costs, repair costs, and unexpected costs, as well as those I've forgotten, we must enter the (m)arena like Gladiators - sizing up the odds of surviving the encounter. And fom what I've seen so far, unless some of you folks in the know give me some failproof pointers, I'm dead meat looking for a barbecue grill. Telling me that dealer list prices are correct, and that one can make offers between 5 and 10% under - and calling such offers LOW - makes me wonder if somebody has been eating strange brownies? Broker used boat prices are obviously over inflated, well beyond what anyone might believe is ordinary pricing with a small margin of built-in negotiating elbow room. Either brokers have a tougher job than I thought with sellers needing delirious cajoling over months of weening until they realize they can't actually make a profit on owning their boat for years, or they're out to empty my wallet with a vengeance. I'll let you decide which is more likely. My market search is nationwide, and thanks to your fine advice, I will start making my offers in writing, clearly the only way to go. However, I'm a bit worried about mailing brokers which I do not trust intrinsically my personal check for 10% of the amount, before even scheduling a survey and making sure the boat is sound. However, I guess that there is no other way to get a broker to communicate a "low offer" (read real market price for this buyer). Heck, if I was selling a boat and not getting any nibbles for a year, I'd consider an honest offer which matches Price Guidebook numbers. Why wouldn't other people? I much appreciate your friendly advice about seller psychology, and what not to do when making an offer. I will follow it strictly, and keep the bickering to monetary issues, ie what I'll pay and what they'll take, without trying to explain or argue. It will save everyone strife, and keep the situation sane. Especially if, as you suggest, it will only cause aggravation and give opposite results to those hoped for. So I thank you for your advice, which I will respect dutifully, even if I don't quite see eye to eye with your philosophy concerning pricing of used boats: definitely not the price that a lonely fool, or even an army of suckers, would be willing to pay given the chance to lose their shirt. Cheers, Rich (not that rich, you will notice from my posting) |
Hi Gould,
I much appreciate your advice, I realize from the groups that you're a pro and have even worn the white shoes. grin But I'm no angry husband shooting out of the bedroom window, just a bloke looking to sink his loose change into a floating mistress, less trouble than a walking one - even if it sinks! I guess all the guidebooks and NADA and BUC etc. are way off in pricing the boat I want (used to want?) because I've only seen one that did actually sell at the guidebook price. (Got ready to arrange survey to find another guy snatch it up faster than me.) Banks which think that "every boat on the market is pretty well overpriced right now" may not have it all figured wrong. Consumers have been known to get carried away in buying stuff for far more than it is worth rationally. Modern Marketing is chock full of concepts and techniques to get people to attribute rational value to things for irrational reasons. You can argue that things are worth what you can get some people to pay - because the market sets the prices. This is why an egg is worth a million dollars to a banker in a famine. This is why a glass of water is worth a billion dollars to Bill Gates in the middle of the Sahara. But is that a reason why an egg or a glass of water are really worth that much? A given boat might be worth more to somebody else in some other situation. But its "real value" is what it is worth to you. The same holds true for Dot Com Stocks. Were they really worth as much as what some people paid for them? Ask those who lost their entire estates in the Stock Market bubble, and just maybe, ask a few who bought boats without being properly informed and prudent. I may not understand the subtleties of the used boat market, but to me, a ten year old boat is worth LESS than it cost ten years ago when new. Banks need to have foresight to avoid defaulting loans. Thus they also need hindsight and cannot allow irrational pricing to guide what they will underwrite. If these boats are really worth close to what their advertised prices are, I'm glad to hear that the used boat market isn't as rough as folks have claimed. I didn't realize that 10 year old 30 foot cruisers sold between $50k and $100k like hotcakes. The price guidebooks all put average retail at around $30k, so I guess I should either throw away the guidebooks or forget about buying a boat. 10,000 lbs of 10 year old plastic at $10 per pound, maybe I should have invested in plastic futures? Maybe it appreciates with age like old wines, getting ooohs and aaahs at every gelcoat crack like antiques with wormholes. Please don't find my irony disrespectful. When you say "Throw the price guidebook away." you must be sensitive to the fact that we know you used to be a broker. It risks smacking of selfserving logic, even if that is the furthest thing from your intentions and you no longer are active at that job. Broker has POWER. They know the market like nobody else. They have access to all the databases. They have informal networks. They've heard all the stories from colleagues on how all these pigeons come along for an expensive plucking. There's a sucker born every day, and most of them eventually want to buy a boat. They may be honest and altruistic, wishing a happy life to buyers and sellers alike. But then again they may not. And with the power advantage they have over buyers, we're in deep trouble unless prepared for the worst, even if hoping for the best. Regardless of the worth of Price Guidebooks - throw away or not - someone here isn't doing their job right, either the pricing authorities, or the brokers. Why do banks and insurance companies use them? Because they are worthless and should be thrown away? Because they only know loans and not boats? Or because they obey principles of logic in price determination, and not the going rate for a sucker? A twofold difference is a 100% error. Somebody is 100% wrong, unless each is 50% blind. How can the Owners of the boats be the ones who set the asking price? This may be true legally, but in practice, who would have the gumption to try to sell their boat for more than double book value? Obviously they are ill advised by overly greedy brokers who, by polluting the market by overpriced units, are maybe a big part of the used boat market's sales difficulties. Who else tells them what price is the right price? Nobody on commission will be happy to sell for a lower profit a boat that they can hope to hussle some innocent buyer with using the emotional appeal of a boat as bait. The sellers are thus hostage to an unethical brokerage situation. Clearly, the system is broken. I don't mean to give you a hard time, especially as you are a valued contributor to these groups and have been candid on many occasions proving your good faith. But a newbie buyer is bound to see things from a different standpoint than a seasoned seller. Maybe, just maybe, there's some sense in the counterpoint too. If having the market "controlled" by brokers isn't an ideal world, the problem remaining is that in a market dominated by brokers, those sellers who would be willing to sell at "normal" rational used boat prices take the easy road and often choose sell through professionals. Brokers then talk up their boat and flatter their egos and appeal to human greed, some say it is just to get the listing, but maybe brokers also dream of manipulating buyers into paying more? Those who are willing to take the hard path of selling their boat themselves without a broker are either very rarely doing so because they have become wise and wary of brokers. It is likely that they are folks who are even more greedy than brokers, and think the broker's overestimation of their boat is low (after all it has been enobled by their ownership, hasn't it?). They will believe that they can sucker you better than a pro, and will want more $ plus the broker's fee to boot. Not exactly ideal sellers to deal with. To resume I'm not about to make an offer on a boat at close to its ancient new price, especially when its best years are gone and NOW is when the problems are pushing their owners to unload them. They have roughly 400 hours on gas engines, and enough wear that the cosmetics will soon show that their better days are over. When I buy something new, I expect to sell it for something less down the road a decade later of wear and tear. Just possibly there is a MicroMarket for 30 foot pocket cruisers due to recent gas price hikes - are folks downsizing their boats trying to cut fuel costs? Most brokers seem to say that those bailing out of their financial shipwrecks are selling to move up to a bigger boat. Even a lame newbie like me should know better! For those of us nonetheless willing to endure a "beating" in terms of purchase costs, maintenance costs, marina costs, upgrade costs, repair costs, and unexpected costs, as well as those I've forgotten, we must enter the (m)arena like Gladiators - sizing up the odds of surviving the encounter. And fom what I've seen so far, unless some of you folks in the know give me some failproof pointers, I'm dead meat looking for a barbecue grill. Telling me that dealer list prices are correct, and that one can make offers between 5 and 10% under - and calling such offers LOW - makes me wonder if somebody has been eating strange brownies? Broker used boat prices are obviously over inflated, well beyond what anyone might believe is ordinary pricing with a small margin of built-in negotiating elbow room. Either brokers have a tougher job than I thought with sellers needing delirious cajoling over months of weening until they realize they can't actually make a profit on owning their boat for years, or they're out to empty my wallet with a vengeance. I'll let you decide which is more likely. My market search is nationwide, and thanks to your fine advice, I will start making my offers in writing, clearly the only way to go. However, I'm a bit worried about mailing brokers which I do not trust intrinsically my personal check for 10% of the amount, before even scheduling a survey and making sure the boat is sound. However, I guess that there is no other way to get a broker to communicate a "low offer" (read real market price for this buyer). Heck, if I was selling a boat and not getting any nibbles for a year, I'd consider an honest offer which matches Price Guidebook numbers. Why wouldn't other people? I much appreciate your friendly advice about seller psychology, and what not to do when making an offer. I will follow it strictly, and keep the bickering to monetary issues, ie what I'll pay and what they'll take, without trying to explain or argue. It will save everyone strife, and keep the situation sane. Especially if, as you suggest, it will only cause aggravation and give opposite results to those hoped for. So I thank you for your advice, which I will respect dutifully, even if I don't quite see eye to eye with your philosophy concerning pricing of used boats: definitely not the price that a lonely fool, or even an army of suckers, would be willing to pay given the chance to lose their shirt. Cheers, Rich (not that rich, you will notice from my posting) |
Hi Harry,
Honored I'm sure that you grace this thread with your renouned wisdom. I've enjoyed reading your postings with relish time and time again! I guess that I've figured that there is no "official pricing" on boats, as it is a largely unregulated market, and because many folks don't buy them based on rationality but after getting hooked at a Marina. I can well understand that used prices are not an exact rocket science. Among the zillions of points of view one can envisage, I see two present in this thread which tend to cancel one another out: A. Past prices make up the market, and thus an average of all prices of boats sold is the real used boat price. The premise here is that nobody in their right mind will sell you a comparable boat for substantially less than another one might have sold for in the recent past. This approach is however fundamentally flawed, because it fails to take into account the people involved. Some folks might find it of great value to unload their used boat fast at a very low price. Other folks might never be able to live down the perceived loss of their initial investment and prefer to wait for an imaginary buyer, leaving the task of selling the boat to their heirs upon their demise. So the real market price would be what two rational people, a buyer and a seller, come to agree upon as a fair and "rational" price based upon costs incurred by the initial owner, costs which will be transfered with the purchase to the next owner, with some allowance for emotional attachment of either party distorting the mix. B. Extrapolations of technical and financial parameters establish the value of the boat. Similarly to a cost accounting process, the materials used, their ageing characteristics, their condition, a survey of the boat, its features and options would constitute a rational basis for estimating the value and price of a used boat. This approach also fails to take into account the human factor. We're dealing with emotional and sometimes irrational people who invest their ego and not just their money into boats. We're talking dreams, aspirations, expectations, and even neuroses getting projected into a boat's purchase or sale. This means that in some cases both the buyer and the seller make a deal and each feels that they've been burned. It can also mean, though surely less often, that each party feels that they've made out like bandits with a sweet sweet deal. Selling a used car I once experienced that. It had given me so much trouble I advertised it well under market price. The buyer was so excited he mailed me a check without even seeing the car. He was a happy sailor. I was happy too, I would have paid to get rid of it! So please forgive me if I don't align my checkbook with actual sale prices. Other people paid those prices for their own reasons which may be sensibly different than mine. Prices tend to be "all over the place" especially when, as you justly state, there is no organized used boat market. So I'll keep my own grey cells as my best basis of pricing, whether books, brokers or sellers think otherwise. I guess the real market price I will end up paying (this will then become a "real" past market price) is going to be what I'll be willing to pay = a lot of boat for a lot of money. Best, Rich |
Hi Harry,
Honored I'm sure that you grace this thread with your renouned wisdom. I've enjoyed reading your postings with relish time and time again! I guess that I've figured that there is no "official pricing" on boats, as it is a largely unregulated market, and because many folks don't buy them based on rationality but after getting hooked at a Marina. I can well understand that used prices are not an exact rocket science. Among the zillions of points of view one can envisage, I see two present in this thread which tend to cancel one another out: A. Past prices make up the market, and thus an average of all prices of boats sold is the real used boat price. The premise here is that nobody in their right mind will sell you a comparable boat for substantially less than another one might have sold for in the recent past. This approach is however fundamentally flawed, because it fails to take into account the people involved. Some folks might find it of great value to unload their used boat fast at a very low price. Other folks might never be able to live down the perceived loss of their initial investment and prefer to wait for an imaginary buyer, leaving the task of selling the boat to their heirs upon their demise. So the real market price would be what two rational people, a buyer and a seller, come to agree upon as a fair and "rational" price based upon costs incurred by the initial owner, costs which will be transfered with the purchase to the next owner, with some allowance for emotional attachment of either party distorting the mix. B. Extrapolations of technical and financial parameters establish the value of the boat. Similarly to a cost accounting process, the materials used, their ageing characteristics, their condition, a survey of the boat, its features and options would constitute a rational basis for estimating the value and price of a used boat. This approach also fails to take into account the human factor. We're dealing with emotional and sometimes irrational people who invest their ego and not just their money into boats. We're talking dreams, aspirations, expectations, and even neuroses getting projected into a boat's purchase or sale. This means that in some cases both the buyer and the seller make a deal and each feels that they've been burned. It can also mean, though surely less often, that each party feels that they've made out like bandits with a sweet sweet deal. Selling a used car I once experienced that. It had given me so much trouble I advertised it well under market price. The buyer was so excited he mailed me a check without even seeing the car. He was a happy sailor. I was happy too, I would have paid to get rid of it! So please forgive me if I don't align my checkbook with actual sale prices. Other people paid those prices for their own reasons which may be sensibly different than mine. Prices tend to be "all over the place" especially when, as you justly state, there is no organized used boat market. So I'll keep my own grey cells as my best basis of pricing, whether books, brokers or sellers think otherwise. I guess the real market price I will end up paying (this will then become a "real" past market price) is going to be what I'll be willing to pay = a lot of boat for a lot of money. Best, Rich |
Your comparison iwth the dot.com stocks is interesting.
There are two factors to consider whenever we buy anything. Market, and value. When the dot.com craze was in full swing, many people wondered whether fledgling companies with no history of profitability could really be worth 10 times their assets right out of the gate and whether those prices should be doubling every few weeks (or faster). That was certainly a legitimate question about the "value" of those stocks. However, if the same people wondering about the value of dot.com stocks actually wanted to own any, they would ultimately be forced to do so at the market price, whether that price was in line with the subjective values they assigned to the stocks, or not. Fortunately the market for used boats isn't as rigid and uniform as the market for securities. The principle remains much the same, however. Market values are established by what the boats actually bring in the marketplace, even when a good case can be made that the boat *shouldn't* be worth that much. If it's any comfort to you, realize that the broker will usually be grinding on the seller to come down to a number closer to your price at least as hard as he or she will be grinding on you to come up to a number closer to the seller's asking price. As far as sending earnest money to out of state brokers you have never met and for boats you have never seen.......don't do it, please. See if you can find one local broker you like and trust, even if that party doesn't have a listing right now that matches your want list. (In most areas of the country, 10-year-old 30-foot cruisers are likely to be somewhat scarce at the $30,000 level). Use the local broker you like and trust to represent your offers. If you make a deposit on an out of state boat through your local broker your money goes into the trust account of the local guy you like and know- not some guy 1000 miles away who may be doing business out of the phone booth at the back of a waterfront bar. Your broker will share the sales commission with the listing broker, so it won't cost the seller any more and shoudn't cost you an extra dime. |
Hi Gould,
Thanks for your futher analysis. QUOTE: "There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use). Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the fact than it did when new." END QUOTE I'm sure you've nailed it he the new boat market is still in a bubble. I've seen the exact same model 12.5 meter boat made by Aquanaut which was offered to me NEW at a boatshow ten years ago for $100k selling now for over $300k. If this holds true for used boats, some of us may well wait to buy until the economy gets hit with hard enough a sidebelt that some boatbuilders either close up shop or crunch their pricing numbers significantly lower. However, I don't necessarily think that you can establish a positive mathematical relation between new and used boat prices, as they are possibly not the same market population. For example, I for one would never buy a new boat at today's prices although I regretfully didn't do so ten years ago as per the example above. This may hold true for the pricing of very recent used boats, when due to highly justified sticker shock induced by market gouging pricing, new boat buyers try to soften the blow by passing on the initial depreciation to a previous owner. But those buying 10 to 20 year old boats are usually not, to my mind, debating spending $200k on new versus $60k on used. Just my humble opinion. Respectfully, Rich |
Hi Gould,
Thanks for your futher analysis. QUOTE: "There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use). Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the fact than it did when new." END QUOTE I'm sure you've nailed it he the new boat market is still in a bubble. I've seen the exact same model 12.5 meter boat made by Aquanaut which was offered to me NEW at a boatshow ten years ago for $100k selling now for over $300k. If this holds true for used boats, some of us may well wait to buy until the economy gets hit with hard enough a sidebelt that some boatbuilders either close up shop or crunch their pricing numbers significantly lower. However, I don't necessarily think that you can establish a positive mathematical relation between new and used boat prices, as they are possibly not the same market population. For example, I for one would never buy a new boat at today's prices although I regretfully didn't do so ten years ago as per the example above. This may hold true for the pricing of very recent used boats, when due to highly justified sticker shock induced by market gouging pricing, new boat buyers try to soften the blow by passing on the initial depreciation to a previous owner. But those buying 10 to 20 year old boats are usually not, to my mind, debating spending $200k on new versus $60k on used. Just my humble opinion. Respectfully, Rich |
Hi Don,
Glad to see you made good, especially if you're looking to sell your Sandpiper 565. So it looks like there aren't quite enough boats out there to satisfy demand sufficiently - unless there are too many of some types of boats that can't find buyers, and categories of actively marketed overpriced new boats creating a strong demand for too few used models which meet the same demand?!? Wow is this stuff getting confusing. Rich |
Gould,
You are incorrect. The buyer can negotiate everything, even the brokers commission fees. The seller is only interested in walking away with "X" dollars. If the broker reducing his commission allows the seller to meet his objectives and complete the sale, it is up for negotiation. The broker may decide not to reduce his fee, but the buyer can still negotiate it. Ever home I have purchased was the result of the broker taking 60% of his normal commission rate. Since I was dealing directly with the listing agent, the listing agent and broker both made more money than if they shared the sale with another broker. When I presented my proposal, every brokers initial response was NO. When they realized I was willing to walk away, they were willing to reduce their commission and still come out ahead. It was a win - win for everyone. wrote in message oups.com... It was written: Everything is negotiable. Everything. The boat's price, the brokers commision, fees. ******* By the way: if the broker decides to negotiate the commission it will be with the seller (who has to pay the commission) rather than the buyer. |
Gould is very knowledgeable, but he looks at all aspects of buying and
selling boats from a "used car or used boat salesman" prospective. If you find a boat you like, you can use the NADA book price as your negotiating tool. If it really is a seller's market, they may not accept it, but that is part of negotiating. wrote in message oups.com... Hi Gould, I much appreciate your advice, I realize from the groups that you're a pro and have even worn the white shoes. grin But I'm no angry husband shooting out of the bedroom window, just a bloke looking to sink his loose change into a floating mistress, less trouble than a walking one - even if it sinks! I guess all the guidebooks and NADA and BUC etc. are way off in pricing the boat I want (used to want?) because I've only seen one that did actually sell at the guidebook price. (Got ready to arrange survey to find another guy snatch it up faster than me.) Banks which think that "every boat on the market is pretty well overpriced right now" may not have it all figured wrong. Consumers have been known to get carried away in buying stuff for far more than it is worth rationally. Modern Marketing is chock full of concepts and techniques to get people to attribute rational value to things for irrational reasons. You can argue that things are worth what you can get some people to pay - because the market sets the prices. This is why an egg is worth a million dollars to a banker in a famine. This is why a glass of water is worth a billion dollars to Bill Gates in the middle of the Sahara. But is that a reason why an egg or a glass of water are really worth that much? A given boat might be worth more to somebody else in some other situation. But its "real value" is what it is worth to you. The same holds true for Dot Com Stocks. Were they really worth as much as what some people paid for them? Ask those who lost their entire estates in the Stock Market bubble, and just maybe, ask a few who bought boats without being properly informed and prudent. I may not understand the subtleties of the used boat market, but to me, a ten year old boat is worth LESS than it cost ten years ago when new. Banks need to have foresight to avoid defaulting loans. Thus they also need hindsight and cannot allow irrational pricing to guide what they will underwrite. If these boats are really worth close to what their advertised prices are, I'm glad to hear that the used boat market isn't as rough as folks have claimed. I didn't realize that 10 year old 30 foot cruisers sold between $50k and $100k like hotcakes. The price guidebooks all put average retail at around $30k, so I guess I should either throw away the guidebooks or forget about buying a boat. 10,000 lbs of 10 year old plastic at $10 per pound, maybe I should have invested in plastic futures? Maybe it appreciates with age like old wines, getting ooohs and aaahs at every gelcoat crack like antiques with wormholes. Please don't find my irony disrespectful. When you say "Throw the price guidebook away." you must be sensitive to the fact that we know you used to be a broker. It risks smacking of selfserving logic, even if that is the furthest thing from your intentions and you no longer are active at that job. Broker has POWER. They know the market like nobody else. They have access to all the databases. They have informal networks. They've heard all the stories from colleagues on how all these pigeons come along for an expensive plucking. There's a sucker born every day, and most of them eventually want to buy a boat. They may be honest and altruistic, wishing a happy life to buyers and sellers alike. But then again they may not. And with the power advantage they have over buyers, we're in deep trouble unless prepared for the worst, even if hoping for the best. Regardless of the worth of Price Guidebooks - throw away or not - someone here isn't doing their job right, either the pricing authorities, or the brokers. Why do banks and insurance companies use them? Because they are worthless and should be thrown away? Because they only know loans and not boats? Or because they obey principles of logic in price determination, and not the going rate for a sucker? A twofold difference is a 100% error. Somebody is 100% wrong, unless each is 50% blind. How can the Owners of the boats be the ones who set the asking price? This may be true legally, but in practice, who would have the gumption to try to sell their boat for more than double book value? Obviously they are ill advised by overly greedy brokers who, by polluting the market by overpriced units, are maybe a big part of the used boat market's sales difficulties. Who else tells them what price is the right price? Nobody on commission will be happy to sell for a lower profit a boat that they can hope to hussle some innocent buyer with using the emotional appeal of a boat as bait. The sellers are thus hostage to an unethical brokerage situation. Clearly, the system is broken. I don't mean to give you a hard time, especially as you are a valued contributor to these groups and have been candid on many occasions proving your good faith. But a newbie buyer is bound to see things from a different standpoint than a seasoned seller. Maybe, just maybe, there's some sense in the counterpoint too. If having the market "controlled" by brokers isn't an ideal world, the problem remaining is that in a market dominated by brokers, those sellers who would be willing to sell at "normal" rational used boat prices take the easy road and often choose sell through professionals. Brokers then talk up their boat and flatter their egos and appeal to human greed, some say it is just to get the listing, but maybe brokers also dream of manipulating buyers into paying more? Those who are willing to take the hard path of selling their boat themselves without a broker are either very rarely doing so because they have become wise and wary of brokers. It is likely that they are folks who are even more greedy than brokers, and think the broker's overestimation of their boat is low (after all it has been enobled by their ownership, hasn't it?). They will believe that they can sucker you better than a pro, and will want more $ plus the broker's fee to boot. Not exactly ideal sellers to deal with. To resume I'm not about to make an offer on a boat at close to its ancient new price, especially when its best years are gone and NOW is when the problems are pushing their owners to unload them. They have roughly 400 hours on gas engines, and enough wear that the cosmetics will soon show that their better days are over. When I buy something new, I expect to sell it for something less down the road a decade later of wear and tear. Just possibly there is a MicroMarket for 30 foot pocket cruisers due to recent gas price hikes - are folks downsizing their boats trying to cut fuel costs? Most brokers seem to say that those bailing out of their financial shipwrecks are selling to move up to a bigger boat. Even a lame newbie like me should know better! For those of us nonetheless willing to endure a "beating" in terms of purchase costs, maintenance costs, marina costs, upgrade costs, repair costs, and unexpected costs, as well as those I've forgotten, we must enter the (m)arena like Gladiators - sizing up the odds of surviving the encounter. And fom what I've seen so far, unless some of you folks in the know give me some failproof pointers, I'm dead meat looking for a barbecue grill. Telling me that dealer list prices are correct, and that one can make offers between 5 and 10% under - and calling such offers LOW - makes me wonder if somebody has been eating strange brownies? Broker used boat prices are obviously over inflated, well beyond what anyone might believe is ordinary pricing with a small margin of built-in negotiating elbow room. Either brokers have a tougher job than I thought with sellers needing delirious cajoling over months of weening until they realize they can't actually make a profit on owning their boat for years, or they're out to empty my wallet with a vengeance. I'll let you decide which is more likely. My market search is nationwide, and thanks to your fine advice, I will start making my offers in writing, clearly the only way to go. However, I'm a bit worried about mailing brokers which I do not trust intrinsically my personal check for 10% of the amount, before even scheduling a survey and making sure the boat is sound. However, I guess that there is no other way to get a broker to communicate a "low offer" (read real market price for this buyer). Heck, if I was selling a boat and not getting any nibbles for a year, I'd consider an honest offer which matches Price Guidebook numbers. Why wouldn't other people? I much appreciate your friendly advice about seller psychology, and what not to do when making an offer. I will follow it strictly, and keep the bickering to monetary issues, ie what I'll pay and what they'll take, without trying to explain or argue. It will save everyone strife, and keep the situation sane. Especially if, as you suggest, it will only cause aggravation and give opposite results to those hoped for. So I thank you for your advice, which I will respect dutifully, even if I don't quite see eye to eye with your philosophy concerning pricing of used boats: definitely not the price that a lonely fool, or even an army of suckers, would be willing to pay given the chance to lose their shirt. Cheers, Rich (not that rich, you will notice from my posting) |
I have had my 2002 SeaRay 176BR on the market since January. I figured
I would put it on the market early in the season and just see what happens so I gave it to a local broker. The broker (Brystar marine) sells for whatever they can get above the sellers price. Now I just want to get rid of the boat payment and I am not interested in making a profit. I tell him that I only want 11,000 for the boat which is what is still owed and I figured he would still be able to make plenty of profit from the sell since the blue book value is around 13,000. His greed is very remarkable though. He has the boat listed at 14,500. This is over 30%! I didn't mind for at the time being because I didn't think it would sell before spring anyway and I am just biding my time until the weather improves and the market starts getting hot. I recently asked how things are going with the sell and he had the nerve to try to get me to lower my price! I know it's all part of the game but the greed is just amazing. I have given him his thirty-day notice and if he can't sell it in that period I will put it on the market for 11,000 just in time for the weather to be beautiful. Chris |
There is an old saying about Brokers.
"You can tell if a broker is lying if his lips are moving." "Mule" wrote in message oups.com... I have had my 2002 SeaRay 176BR on the market since January. I figured I would put it on the market early in the season and just see what happens so I gave it to a local broker. The broker (Brystar marine) sells for whatever they can get above the sellers price. Now I just want to get rid of the boat payment and I am not interested in making a profit. I tell him that I only want 11,000 for the boat which is what is still owed and I figured he would still be able to make plenty of profit from the sell since the blue book value is around 13,000. His greed is very remarkable though. He has the boat listed at 14,500. This is over 30%! I didn't mind for at the time being because I didn't think it would sell before spring anyway and I am just biding my time until the weather improves and the market starts getting hot. I recently asked how things are going with the sell and he had the nerve to try to get me to lower my price! I know it's all part of the game but the greed is just amazing. I have given him his thirty-day notice and if he can't sell it in that period I will put it on the market for 11,000 just in time for the weather to be beautiful. Chris |
Wow Harry, that $40k price spread between used boats sure sounds a lot
like what I've been seeing! Who can say that brokers use an average of real past prices to choose their numbers. Sounds more like they make it up as they go along, testing the waters for whatever the market will bear, no fools refused. grin Glad that your idea of restoring an older boat passed as it didn't stick - nothing worse than investing your time and money in the wrong boat at a time when used boats aren't selling. But are they selling or not? Does anyone know the numbers? Possibly we're seeing a strange market phenomena: Fewer new boat sales than the market demand would otherwise prompt, due to unreasonably high prices. Maybe a new generation of Marketing MBAs getting hired by boat builders to raise their margins and profits? This would mean that even if new boat sales are numerous, they could have sold many more at a friendlier prices. By raising their margins and thus financially limiting the volume of new sales, they've created a modern monster: the new boat buyer looking for a NEW USED BOAT. As some such boats exist, and have always commanded a healthy premium over the price of worn and tattered boats, they fill this gap. This would mean that they are no longer as before compared to used boat prices, but instead to the higher and higher new boat prices which pretend to promote etheral intangibles such as lifestyle change and other imaginary necessities magically bestowed upon their owners. Newborn harbor Easter bunnies are apparently hatching from chocolate eggs and hunting down dockside campers with plenty of glitzy plastic and varnish. Marina cocktail lounges, see what I can do cruisers, watch me go sportboats have apparently become a desirable addition to 2.5 kids and the mandatory SUV. Ocean loving boaters, move over, or find yerself a beater to fix up with loads of cash and TLC. The fresh and reasonable used boat has become a fiction from the past. Unless you like to pay sensibly more for a used boat than you would have paid for a new one only a few years ago. In a boat owner's forum I am a member of, one poster was thrilled that their 10 year old diesel engines were appraised for insurance purposes at a higher price than when they were new, and this wasn't at replacement cost. Apparently the Marketing MBAs have infiltrated the entire boating industry, replacing honest and sensible pricing with reasonable margins with hit 'em with ever higher prices, who cares about making more sales and having more happy customers if you can claim to be making more short term profit. round of applause But Harry, as you said, prices are negotiable, and this boy is getting ready to play some tough snooker, brokers beware. If one says he is Bob Krause the second, I'll cut him some slack. But others out there, you ain't seen Lowball played this hard in a long time! Those small good faith deposit checks are going to be raining on you - and you guys are going to have to start working to earn an honest livin'.grin I will NOT pay the inflated salaries of worthless marketing vultures and subsidize bloated advertizing budgets by buying a new boat. And I'm certainly not about to accept the consequences on the used boat market of their insatiable appetite for profit. If I don't find a decent used boat - at normal banking/insurance/buyer used boat guide pricing - there will be NO SALE. And no, Gould, I will not throw away the price guides. Rich |
Gould - I owe you.
QUOTE: "As far as sending earnest money to out of state brokers you have never met and for boats you have never seen.......don't do it, please. See if you can find one local broker you like and trust, even if that party doesn't have a listing right now that matches your want list. (In most areas of the country, 10-year-old 30-foot cruisers are likely to be somewhat scarce at the $30,000 level). Use the local broker you like and trust to represent your offers. If you make a deposit on an out of state boat through your local broker your money goes into the trust account of the local guy you like and know- not some guy 1000 miles away who may be doing business out of the phone booth at the back of a waterfront bar. Your broker will share the sales commission with the listing broker, so it won't cost the seller any more and shoudn't cost you an extra dime." You have just saved me money, worries, more money and maybe even gotten me to stick with it and finally reach that lofty twilight cieling of stars, the right boat. Deeply grateful, Rich |
"WaIIy" wrote in message ... On 21 Mar 2005 08:38:28 -0800, wrote: Some folks might find it of great value to unload their used boat fast at a very low price. Other folks might never be able to live down the perceived loss of their initial investment and prefer to wait for an imaginary buyer, leaving the task of selling the boat to their heirs upon their demise. So the real market price would be what two rational people, a buyer and a seller, come to agree upon as a fair and "rational" price based upon costs incurred by the initial owner, costs which will be transfered with the purchase to the next owner, with some allowance for emotional attachment of either party distorting the mix. Well said. He is missing one important part of the mix.....the supply and demand for like boats....what may be a 'fair and rationale' price goes out the window when there is a sudden influx of newer boats being dumped on the market by laid off dot com'ers. :-) |
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:20:39 -0500, "Dr. Dr. & Mr Karen Grear"
wrote: There is an old saying about Brokers. "You can tell if a broker is lying if his lips are moving." And the only difference between you and a broker is you're a pretty good ventriloquist. bb |
Ever buy a boat, Doc?
(Not to be confused with a boat dock) The value of the NADA used boat pricing guide is clearly stated on the cover of the book itself, in Spanish. Negotiating with the NADA book is one thing, but in some cases the buyers decide that there is a "secret" stash of boats out there, somewhere, all priced at or below the NADA book. Can't blame them- who in their right mind would pay "high book" for a car in most cases? The mistake is to decide that the NADA book is some sort of price gospel and to assume that all sellers offering their boats for sale at prices above NADA are out to rape and gouge the public. The boat market is a lot more regional than you probably realize. Then, factor in that in some specialized boats there may only be a half dozen boats even built and sold, new, in any particular year. It's a certainty that not all of the ten existing 1997 33' Ho Lee Smokers will come to market in a given year, and in some years there may be only one or maybe even no boats of that particular vintage and model even offered for sale. Let's say there are two- one of the boats was run up on the rocks and sold for insurance salvage at $15,000. The other was in bristol shape and brought $110,000....(somewhat a decent price as a new one now brings about $200k). NADA takes both boats and calculates an "average" price of $62,500. Totally useless. That price is 47,500 more than the junker brought, but $40,000 less than the nice boat sold for. Is the nice boat really only worth $62,500 because somebody dumped a junker at a sacrifice figure? Did the guy who bought the salvage hull at $15,000 "steal it"? (Probably not). |
wrote in message ups.com... Ever buy a boat, Doc? (Not to be confused with a boat dock) Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand dictate their sales price. The value of the NADA used boat pricing guide is clearly stated on the cover of the book itself, in Spanish. Negotiating with the NADA book is one thing, but in some cases the buyers decide that there is a "secret" stash of boats out there, somewhere, all priced at or below the NADA book. Can't blame them- who in their right mind would pay "high book" for a car in most cases? The mistake is to decide that the NADA book is some sort of price gospel and to assume that all sellers offering their boats for sale at prices above NADA are out to rape and gouge the public. The boat market is a lot more regional than you probably realize. Then, factor in that in some specialized boats there may only be a half dozen boats even built and sold, new, in any particular year. It's a certainty that not all of the ten existing 1997 33' Ho Lee Smokers will come to market in a given year, and in some years there may be only one or maybe even no boats of that particular vintage and model even offered for sale. Let's say there are two- one of the boats was run up on the rocks and sold for insurance salvage at $15,000. The other was in bristol shape and brought $110,000....(somewhat a decent price as a new one now brings about $200k). NADA takes both boats and calculates an "average" price of $62,500. Totally useless. That price is 47,500 more than the junker brought, but $40,000 less than the nice boat sold for. Is the nice boat really only worth $62,500 because somebody dumped a junker at a sacrifice figure? Did the guy who bought the salvage hull at $15,000 "steal it"? (Probably not). |
Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand
dictate their sales price. *************** Exactly! Supply and demand, not a book. |
The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool while
negotiating. wrote in message oups.com... Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand dictate their sales price. *************** Exactly! Supply and demand, not a book. |
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:42:38 -0500, HKrause wrote:
K. Smith wrote: Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then you deserve what you won't get. So essentially brokers are one of the few life forms below a franchised boat dealer & that's almost life on Mars type stuff, however at least the dealers have a real business, with real overheads, assets, stock & staff etc, whereas the average slimey broker is just an unregulated hangeron moron. Yet another psychotic screed from Karen Smith of Australia, the self-proclaimed "inventor" of the "Taipan line" of diesel outboards no one has heard of, and, in fact, no one in the marine industry has heard of Karen Smith, either. But she presents a detailed knowledge of marine engines. One which some folks can only snipe at with their inane comments. -- John H "All decisions are the result of binary thinking." |
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:39:29 -0500, "Dr. Dr. Karen Grear"
wrote: The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool while negotiating. Exactly. The book, NADA, is a tool for buyers to try and beat down the price of a boat. That's how they sell the book. If a seller is foolish enough to think the book is factual information, so be it. Best thing to do when someone starts spouting NADA prices is politely suggest they look elsewhere for a vessel. bb |
bb,
If you reject negotiating with a prospective buyer, because you believe they are trying to get the lowest possible price, you will never sell your boat. "bb" wrote in message ... On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:39:29 -0500, "Dr. Dr. Karen Grear" wrote: The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool while negotiating. Exactly. The book, NADA, is a tool for buyers to try and beat down the price of a boat. That's how they sell the book. If a seller is foolish enough to think the book is factual information, so be it. Best thing to do when someone starts spouting NADA prices is politely suggest they look elsewhere for a vessel. bb |
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:48:51 -0500, "Dr. Dr. Karen Grear"
wrote: bb, If you reject negotiating with a prospective buyer, because you believe they are trying to get the lowest possible price, you will never sell your boat. Ok, but what does the above statement have to do with anything? I, as a seller, don't have to take a number printed in a book as fact. I'm well aware of how to negotiate the price of a vessel. Anybody can give a boat away. bb |
bb,
If you are aware of how to negotiate, why would you stop negotiations, just because someone was using NADA prices as part of his negotiations. If you were a good negotiator, you would immediately show the selling price of similar boats in your area as your tool to discredit the NADA prices. A good negotiator would not give anything away, nor would he allow an offer that he considered unreasonable to stop his negotiations. "bb" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:48:51 -0500, "Dr. Dr. Karen Grear" wrote: bb, If you reject negotiating with a prospective buyer, because you believe they are trying to get the lowest possible price, you will never sell your boat. Ok, but what does the above statement have to do with anything? I, as a seller, don't have to take a number printed in a book as fact. I'm well aware of how to negotiate the price of a vessel. Anybody can give a boat away. bb |
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:20:01 GMT, bb wrote:
Anybody can give a boat away. ========================== Reminds me of an old quote about the banking business: "Any fool can lend out money, the trick is to get it back with interest." |
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:28:18 -0500, HarryKrause
wrote: A couple of months ago, in the doldrums of winter, as it were, I got the idea (which thankfully has passed) that I would like to devote a lot of spare time to refinishing/rebuilding a classic 28' deep vee fishing boat. I found five boats that met my specs, all in what I would call "fair condition. The model is somewhat in demand, but it hasn't been built in, what, about two decades. ============================= Bertram 28 by any chance? We went through the same process with Bertram 31s six years ago before finally settling on a Bertram 33 (because Mrs B like it better). The range of condition and prices for old Bertram 31s is simply astounding. The 28 is better for cruising with its bigger cabin space but the 31 is faster and has a larger cockpit for fishing. |
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:11:10 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:28:18 -0500, HarryKrause wrote: A couple of months ago, in the doldrums of winter, as it were, I got the idea (which thankfully has passed) that I would like to devote a lot of spare time to refinishing/rebuilding a classic 28' deep vee fishing boat. I found five boats that met my specs, all in what I would call "fair condition. The model is somewhat in demand, but it hasn't been built in, what, about two decades. ============================= Bertram 28 by any chance? We went through the same process with Bertram 31s six years ago before finally settling on a Bertram 33 (because Mrs B like it better). The range of condition and prices for old Bertram 31s is simply astounding. The 28 is better for cruising with its bigger cabin space but the 31 is faster and has a larger cockpit for fishing. I looked at a couple of Bertram 31s last summer - I like them a lot. Later, Tom |
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:57:56 -0500, HKrause wrote:
John H wrote: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:42:38 -0500, HKrause wrote: K. Smith wrote: Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then you deserve what you won't get. So essentially brokers are one of the few life forms below a franchised boat dealer & that's almost life on Mars type stuff, however at least the dealers have a real business, with real overheads, assets, stock & staff etc, whereas the average slimey broker is just an unregulated hangeron moron. Yet another psychotic screed from Karen Smith of Australia, the self-proclaimed "inventor" of the "Taipan line" of diesel outboards no one has heard of, and, in fact, no one in the marine industry has heard of Karen Smith, either. But she presents a detailed knowledge of marine engines. One which some folks can only snipe at with their inane comments. It's your opinion that she presents a "detailed knowledge." Time and again, her "detailed" knowledge has been shot to shreds by experts with actual credentials. Perhaps some people are too easy to convince when they see long, poorly written posts with a few buzzwords sprinkled in for effect. When an expert responds to her posts with a different opinion, I enjoy reading both. *You*, in my opinion, are not an expert. Therefore your snide comments fall into the 'inane' category. -- John H "All decisions are the result of binary thinking." |
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:18:13 -0500, HKrause wrote:
John H wrote: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:57:56 -0500, HKrause wrote: John H wrote: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:42:38 -0500, HKrause wrote: K. Smith wrote: Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then you deserve what you won't get. So essentially brokers are one of the few life forms below a franchised boat dealer & that's almost life on Mars type stuff, however at least the dealers have a real business, with real overheads, assets, stock & staff etc, whereas the average slimey broker is just an unregulated hangeron moron. Yet another psychotic screed from Karen Smith of Australia, the self-proclaimed "inventor" of the "Taipan line" of diesel outboards no one has heard of, and, in fact, no one in the marine industry has heard of Karen Smith, either. But she presents a detailed knowledge of marine engines. One which some folks can only snipe at with their inane comments. It's your opinion that she presents a "detailed knowledge." Time and again, her "detailed" knowledge has been shot to shreds by experts with actual credentials. Perhaps some people are too easy to convince when they see long, poorly written posts with a few buzzwords sprinkled in for effect. When an expert responds to her posts with a different opinion, I enjoy reading both. *You*, in my opinion, are not an expert. Therefore your snide comments fall into the 'inane' category. Double yawn. Double 'exactly'. -- John H "All decisions are the result of binary thinking." |
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:53:52 -0500, HKrause
wrote: There was a sweet 33 with gas engines across from the West Marine store in Deale...under $90,000, and a really solid hull with no blems. =================================== They are great boats but really need a pair of diesels to get them going the way you'd like. Weight is over 20,000 lbs compared to about 10,000 for a 31. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:32 AM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com