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Hi Gould,
I much appreciate your advice, I realize from the groups that you're a pro and have even worn the white shoes. grin But I'm no angry husband shooting out of the bedroom window, just a bloke looking to sink his loose change into a floating mistress, less trouble than a walking one - even if it sinks! I guess all the guidebooks and NADA and BUC etc. are way off in pricing the boat I want (used to want?) because I've only seen one that did actually sell at the guidebook price. (Got ready to arrange survey to find another guy snatch it up faster than me.) Banks which think that "every boat on the market is pretty well overpriced right now" may not have it all figured wrong. Consumers have been known to get carried away in buying stuff for far more than it is worth rationally. Modern Marketing is chock full of concepts and techniques to get people to attribute rational value to things for irrational reasons. You can argue that things are worth what you can get some people to pay - because the market sets the prices. This is why an egg is worth a million dollars to a banker in a famine. This is why a glass of water is worth a billion dollars to Bill Gates in the middle of the Sahara. But is that a reason why an egg or a glass of water are really worth that much? A given boat might be worth more to somebody else in some other situation. But its "real value" is what it is worth to you. The same holds true for Dot Com Stocks. Were they really worth as much as what some people paid for them? Ask those who lost their entire estates in the Stock Market bubble, and just maybe, ask a few who bought boats without being properly informed and prudent. I may not understand the subtleties of the used boat market, but to me, a ten year old boat is worth LESS than it cost ten years ago when new. Banks need to have foresight to avoid defaulting loans. Thus they also need hindsight and cannot allow irrational pricing to guide what they will underwrite. If these boats are really worth close to what their advertised prices are, I'm glad to hear that the used boat market isn't as rough as folks have claimed. I didn't realize that 10 year old 30 foot cruisers sold between $50k and $100k like hotcakes. The price guidebooks all put average retail at around $30k, so I guess I should either throw away the guidebooks or forget about buying a boat. 10,000 lbs of 10 year old plastic at $10 per pound, maybe I should have invested in plastic futures? Maybe it appreciates with age like old wines, getting ooohs and aaahs at every gelcoat crack like antiques with wormholes. Please don't find my irony disrespectful. When you say "Throw the price guidebook away." you must be sensitive to the fact that we know you used to be a broker. It risks smacking of selfserving logic, even if that is the furthest thing from your intentions and you no longer are active at that job. Broker has POWER. They know the market like nobody else. They have access to all the databases. They have informal networks. They've heard all the stories from colleagues on how all these pigeons come along for an expensive plucking. There's a sucker born every day, and most of them eventually want to buy a boat. They may be honest and altruistic, wishing a happy life to buyers and sellers alike. But then again they may not. And with the power advantage they have over buyers, we're in deep trouble unless prepared for the worst, even if hoping for the best. Regardless of the worth of Price Guidebooks - throw away or not - someone here isn't doing their job right, either the pricing authorities, or the brokers. Why do banks and insurance companies use them? Because they are worthless and should be thrown away? Because they only know loans and not boats? Or because they obey principles of logic in price determination, and not the going rate for a sucker? A twofold difference is a 100% error. Somebody is 100% wrong, unless each is 50% blind. How can the Owners of the boats be the ones who set the asking price? This may be true legally, but in practice, who would have the gumption to try to sell their boat for more than double book value? Obviously they are ill advised by overly greedy brokers who, by polluting the market by overpriced units, are maybe a big part of the used boat market's sales difficulties. Who else tells them what price is the right price? Nobody on commission will be happy to sell for a lower profit a boat that they can hope to hussle some innocent buyer with using the emotional appeal of a boat as bait. The sellers are thus hostage to an unethical brokerage situation. Clearly, the system is broken. I don't mean to give you a hard time, especially as you are a valued contributor to these groups and have been candid on many occasions proving your good faith. But a newbie buyer is bound to see things from a different standpoint than a seasoned seller. Maybe, just maybe, there's some sense in the counterpoint too. If having the market "controlled" by brokers isn't an ideal world, the problem remaining is that in a market dominated by brokers, those sellers who would be willing to sell at "normal" rational used boat prices take the easy road and often choose sell through professionals. Brokers then talk up their boat and flatter their egos and appeal to human greed, some say it is just to get the listing, but maybe brokers also dream of manipulating buyers into paying more? Those who are willing to take the hard path of selling their boat themselves without a broker are either very rarely doing so because they have become wise and wary of brokers. It is likely that they are folks who are even more greedy than brokers, and think the broker's overestimation of their boat is low (after all it has been enobled by their ownership, hasn't it?). They will believe that they can sucker you better than a pro, and will want more $ plus the broker's fee to boot. Not exactly ideal sellers to deal with. To resume I'm not about to make an offer on a boat at close to its ancient new price, especially when its best years are gone and NOW is when the problems are pushing their owners to unload them. They have roughly 400 hours on gas engines, and enough wear that the cosmetics will soon show that their better days are over. When I buy something new, I expect to sell it for something less down the road a decade later of wear and tear. Just possibly there is a MicroMarket for 30 foot pocket cruisers due to recent gas price hikes - are folks downsizing their boats trying to cut fuel costs? Most brokers seem to say that those bailing out of their financial shipwrecks are selling to move up to a bigger boat. Even a lame newbie like me should know better! For those of us nonetheless willing to endure a "beating" in terms of purchase costs, maintenance costs, marina costs, upgrade costs, repair costs, and unexpected costs, as well as those I've forgotten, we must enter the (m)arena like Gladiators - sizing up the odds of surviving the encounter. And fom what I've seen so far, unless some of you folks in the know give me some failproof pointers, I'm dead meat looking for a barbecue grill. Telling me that dealer list prices are correct, and that one can make offers between 5 and 10% under - and calling such offers LOW - makes me wonder if somebody has been eating strange brownies? Broker used boat prices are obviously over inflated, well beyond what anyone might believe is ordinary pricing with a small margin of built-in negotiating elbow room. Either brokers have a tougher job than I thought with sellers needing delirious cajoling over months of weening until they realize they can't actually make a profit on owning their boat for years, or they're out to empty my wallet with a vengeance. I'll let you decide which is more likely. My market search is nationwide, and thanks to your fine advice, I will start making my offers in writing, clearly the only way to go. However, I'm a bit worried about mailing brokers which I do not trust intrinsically my personal check for 10% of the amount, before even scheduling a survey and making sure the boat is sound. However, I guess that there is no other way to get a broker to communicate a "low offer" (read real market price for this buyer). Heck, if I was selling a boat and not getting any nibbles for a year, I'd consider an honest offer which matches Price Guidebook numbers. Why wouldn't other people? I much appreciate your friendly advice about seller psychology, and what not to do when making an offer. I will follow it strictly, and keep the bickering to monetary issues, ie what I'll pay and what they'll take, without trying to explain or argue. It will save everyone strife, and keep the situation sane. Especially if, as you suggest, it will only cause aggravation and give opposite results to those hoped for. So I thank you for your advice, which I will respect dutifully, even if I don't quite see eye to eye with your philosophy concerning pricing of used boats: definitely not the price that a lonely fool, or even an army of suckers, would be willing to pay given the chance to lose their shirt. Cheers, Rich (not that rich, you will notice from my posting) |
#2
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Gould is very knowledgeable, but he looks at all aspects of buying and
selling boats from a "used car or used boat salesman" prospective. If you find a boat you like, you can use the NADA book price as your negotiating tool. If it really is a seller's market, they may not accept it, but that is part of negotiating. wrote in message oups.com... Hi Gould, I much appreciate your advice, I realize from the groups that you're a pro and have even worn the white shoes. grin But I'm no angry husband shooting out of the bedroom window, just a bloke looking to sink his loose change into a floating mistress, less trouble than a walking one - even if it sinks! I guess all the guidebooks and NADA and BUC etc. are way off in pricing the boat I want (used to want?) because I've only seen one that did actually sell at the guidebook price. (Got ready to arrange survey to find another guy snatch it up faster than me.) Banks which think that "every boat on the market is pretty well overpriced right now" may not have it all figured wrong. Consumers have been known to get carried away in buying stuff for far more than it is worth rationally. Modern Marketing is chock full of concepts and techniques to get people to attribute rational value to things for irrational reasons. You can argue that things are worth what you can get some people to pay - because the market sets the prices. This is why an egg is worth a million dollars to a banker in a famine. This is why a glass of water is worth a billion dollars to Bill Gates in the middle of the Sahara. But is that a reason why an egg or a glass of water are really worth that much? A given boat might be worth more to somebody else in some other situation. But its "real value" is what it is worth to you. The same holds true for Dot Com Stocks. Were they really worth as much as what some people paid for them? Ask those who lost their entire estates in the Stock Market bubble, and just maybe, ask a few who bought boats without being properly informed and prudent. I may not understand the subtleties of the used boat market, but to me, a ten year old boat is worth LESS than it cost ten years ago when new. Banks need to have foresight to avoid defaulting loans. Thus they also need hindsight and cannot allow irrational pricing to guide what they will underwrite. If these boats are really worth close to what their advertised prices are, I'm glad to hear that the used boat market isn't as rough as folks have claimed. I didn't realize that 10 year old 30 foot cruisers sold between $50k and $100k like hotcakes. The price guidebooks all put average retail at around $30k, so I guess I should either throw away the guidebooks or forget about buying a boat. 10,000 lbs of 10 year old plastic at $10 per pound, maybe I should have invested in plastic futures? Maybe it appreciates with age like old wines, getting ooohs and aaahs at every gelcoat crack like antiques with wormholes. Please don't find my irony disrespectful. When you say "Throw the price guidebook away." you must be sensitive to the fact that we know you used to be a broker. It risks smacking of selfserving logic, even if that is the furthest thing from your intentions and you no longer are active at that job. Broker has POWER. They know the market like nobody else. They have access to all the databases. They have informal networks. They've heard all the stories from colleagues on how all these pigeons come along for an expensive plucking. There's a sucker born every day, and most of them eventually want to buy a boat. They may be honest and altruistic, wishing a happy life to buyers and sellers alike. But then again they may not. And with the power advantage they have over buyers, we're in deep trouble unless prepared for the worst, even if hoping for the best. Regardless of the worth of Price Guidebooks - throw away or not - someone here isn't doing their job right, either the pricing authorities, or the brokers. Why do banks and insurance companies use them? Because they are worthless and should be thrown away? Because they only know loans and not boats? Or because they obey principles of logic in price determination, and not the going rate for a sucker? A twofold difference is a 100% error. Somebody is 100% wrong, unless each is 50% blind. How can the Owners of the boats be the ones who set the asking price? This may be true legally, but in practice, who would have the gumption to try to sell their boat for more than double book value? Obviously they are ill advised by overly greedy brokers who, by polluting the market by overpriced units, are maybe a big part of the used boat market's sales difficulties. Who else tells them what price is the right price? Nobody on commission will be happy to sell for a lower profit a boat that they can hope to hussle some innocent buyer with using the emotional appeal of a boat as bait. The sellers are thus hostage to an unethical brokerage situation. Clearly, the system is broken. I don't mean to give you a hard time, especially as you are a valued contributor to these groups and have been candid on many occasions proving your good faith. But a newbie buyer is bound to see things from a different standpoint than a seasoned seller. Maybe, just maybe, there's some sense in the counterpoint too. If having the market "controlled" by brokers isn't an ideal world, the problem remaining is that in a market dominated by brokers, those sellers who would be willing to sell at "normal" rational used boat prices take the easy road and often choose sell through professionals. Brokers then talk up their boat and flatter their egos and appeal to human greed, some say it is just to get the listing, but maybe brokers also dream of manipulating buyers into paying more? Those who are willing to take the hard path of selling their boat themselves without a broker are either very rarely doing so because they have become wise and wary of brokers. It is likely that they are folks who are even more greedy than brokers, and think the broker's overestimation of their boat is low (after all it has been enobled by their ownership, hasn't it?). They will believe that they can sucker you better than a pro, and will want more $ plus the broker's fee to boot. Not exactly ideal sellers to deal with. To resume I'm not about to make an offer on a boat at close to its ancient new price, especially when its best years are gone and NOW is when the problems are pushing their owners to unload them. They have roughly 400 hours on gas engines, and enough wear that the cosmetics will soon show that their better days are over. When I buy something new, I expect to sell it for something less down the road a decade later of wear and tear. Just possibly there is a MicroMarket for 30 foot pocket cruisers due to recent gas price hikes - are folks downsizing their boats trying to cut fuel costs? Most brokers seem to say that those bailing out of their financial shipwrecks are selling to move up to a bigger boat. Even a lame newbie like me should know better! For those of us nonetheless willing to endure a "beating" in terms of purchase costs, maintenance costs, marina costs, upgrade costs, repair costs, and unexpected costs, as well as those I've forgotten, we must enter the (m)arena like Gladiators - sizing up the odds of surviving the encounter. And fom what I've seen so far, unless some of you folks in the know give me some failproof pointers, I'm dead meat looking for a barbecue grill. Telling me that dealer list prices are correct, and that one can make offers between 5 and 10% under - and calling such offers LOW - makes me wonder if somebody has been eating strange brownies? Broker used boat prices are obviously over inflated, well beyond what anyone might believe is ordinary pricing with a small margin of built-in negotiating elbow room. Either brokers have a tougher job than I thought with sellers needing delirious cajoling over months of weening until they realize they can't actually make a profit on owning their boat for years, or they're out to empty my wallet with a vengeance. I'll let you decide which is more likely. My market search is nationwide, and thanks to your fine advice, I will start making my offers in writing, clearly the only way to go. However, I'm a bit worried about mailing brokers which I do not trust intrinsically my personal check for 10% of the amount, before even scheduling a survey and making sure the boat is sound. However, I guess that there is no other way to get a broker to communicate a "low offer" (read real market price for this buyer). Heck, if I was selling a boat and not getting any nibbles for a year, I'd consider an honest offer which matches Price Guidebook numbers. Why wouldn't other people? I much appreciate your friendly advice about seller psychology, and what not to do when making an offer. I will follow it strictly, and keep the bickering to monetary issues, ie what I'll pay and what they'll take, without trying to explain or argue. It will save everyone strife, and keep the situation sane. Especially if, as you suggest, it will only cause aggravation and give opposite results to those hoped for. So I thank you for your advice, which I will respect dutifully, even if I don't quite see eye to eye with your philosophy concerning pricing of used boats: definitely not the price that a lonely fool, or even an army of suckers, would be willing to pay given the chance to lose their shirt. Cheers, Rich (not that rich, you will notice from my posting) |
#3
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Ever buy a boat, Doc?
(Not to be confused with a boat dock) The value of the NADA used boat pricing guide is clearly stated on the cover of the book itself, in Spanish. Negotiating with the NADA book is one thing, but in some cases the buyers decide that there is a "secret" stash of boats out there, somewhere, all priced at or below the NADA book. Can't blame them- who in their right mind would pay "high book" for a car in most cases? The mistake is to decide that the NADA book is some sort of price gospel and to assume that all sellers offering their boats for sale at prices above NADA are out to rape and gouge the public. The boat market is a lot more regional than you probably realize. Then, factor in that in some specialized boats there may only be a half dozen boats even built and sold, new, in any particular year. It's a certainty that not all of the ten existing 1997 33' Ho Lee Smokers will come to market in a given year, and in some years there may be only one or maybe even no boats of that particular vintage and model even offered for sale. Let's say there are two- one of the boats was run up on the rocks and sold for insurance salvage at $15,000. The other was in bristol shape and brought $110,000....(somewhat a decent price as a new one now brings about $200k). NADA takes both boats and calculates an "average" price of $62,500. Totally useless. That price is 47,500 more than the junker brought, but $40,000 less than the nice boat sold for. Is the nice boat really only worth $62,500 because somebody dumped a junker at a sacrifice figure? Did the guy who bought the salvage hull at $15,000 "steal it"? (Probably not). |
#4
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![]() wrote in message ups.com... Ever buy a boat, Doc? (Not to be confused with a boat dock) Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand dictate their sales price. The value of the NADA used boat pricing guide is clearly stated on the cover of the book itself, in Spanish. Negotiating with the NADA book is one thing, but in some cases the buyers decide that there is a "secret" stash of boats out there, somewhere, all priced at or below the NADA book. Can't blame them- who in their right mind would pay "high book" for a car in most cases? The mistake is to decide that the NADA book is some sort of price gospel and to assume that all sellers offering their boats for sale at prices above NADA are out to rape and gouge the public. The boat market is a lot more regional than you probably realize. Then, factor in that in some specialized boats there may only be a half dozen boats even built and sold, new, in any particular year. It's a certainty that not all of the ten existing 1997 33' Ho Lee Smokers will come to market in a given year, and in some years there may be only one or maybe even no boats of that particular vintage and model even offered for sale. Let's say there are two- one of the boats was run up on the rocks and sold for insurance salvage at $15,000. The other was in bristol shape and brought $110,000....(somewhat a decent price as a new one now brings about $200k). NADA takes both boats and calculates an "average" price of $62,500. Totally useless. That price is 47,500 more than the junker brought, but $40,000 less than the nice boat sold for. Is the nice boat really only worth $62,500 because somebody dumped a junker at a sacrifice figure? Did the guy who bought the salvage hull at $15,000 "steal it"? (Probably not). |
#5
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Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand
dictate their sales price. *************** Exactly! Supply and demand, not a book. |
#6
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The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool while
negotiating. wrote in message oups.com... Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand dictate their sales price. *************** Exactly! Supply and demand, not a book. |
#7
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:39:29 -0500, "Dr. Dr. Karen Grear"
wrote: The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool while negotiating. Exactly. The book, NADA, is a tool for buyers to try and beat down the price of a boat. That's how they sell the book. If a seller is foolish enough to think the book is factual information, so be it. Best thing to do when someone starts spouting NADA prices is politely suggest they look elsewhere for a vessel. bb |
#8
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The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool
while negotiating. ********** Nonsense. You might as well rely on saying "My brother-in-law says your boat is only worth XXXX. Put yourself in the seller's shoes. When the seller listed the boat, it is very probable that he did some research on the local market that included sales trends and selling prices for boats similar to the one he is selling. To put yourself in the seller's shoes, imagine you put your house up for sale and, rather than throwing a dart at sheet of numbers on the wall, you priced the boat at or just slightly above the prevailing price trend in your area. Let's say that after you had your house listed for a week, an offer for half price is presented by the broker. When you say, "That's almost an insult! What makes this guy think he can buy my house for so much less than my neighbors are selling their houses for?"....how quickly would you cave in when the broker replied, "The buyer went on the internet, found some site where a group of Automobile Dealers has expressed an opinion about the value of your boat, and as far as he's concerned that's all its worth"? We actually *do* agree on one thing. Knowing the actual, recent, local price tendencies for a boat can be an effective negotiating tactic. This information is available, (I described how to obtain it earlier in the thread), and useful. Using some fairy tale number from a discredited source won't cause an informed seller to give his boat away at half price. Ain't gonna happen. Now of course if it were a political debate instead of a boating transaction, the guy with the phony numbers would just keep repeating them over, and over, and over again until everybody else began believing they might be true. :-) |
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