Everything is negotiable. Everything. The boat's price, the brokers
commision, fees. The so-called official price guides are neither
authoritative or official. You decide what amount to offer. Typical
broker tactic is to dismiss your offer, attempting to shame you into
offering a higher amount. That broker (think "used car sales") is merely
following proven negotiating tactics. If you have not studiied
negotiating tactics then you may be at their mercy. If you really really
want that boat, they will smell that and play you for all they can get.
Be cool. Be willing to walk away. Know prices of boats IN YOUR AREA.
Snooty high-class marina areas tend to call for higher boat prices.

Hope you find what you want at a good price!

J



wrote in news:1111388088.332314.281900
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


The 2005 Guide to Powerboats has a listing of used boat prices showing
Low Retail and Average Retail prices.

The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can
customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat.

Here is where the problem comes in:


The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
price rating lists.


¤ Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push
people to make higher offers?

¤ Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time
buyers who don't know the market?

¤ Are the Price Guides totally off base when it comes to real market
prices?

Hi J,

Got that straight - I was just wondering how negotiable - boats which
sold new in 1995 for under $100k going for $55k to $105k ten years
later. Could make sense in a sellers' market, but last I heard it is
tough going selling boats.

So far my experience with brokers is strange. One broker is very nice,
ready to go to every effort to help the sale happen. Unluckily I
changed my mind about that boat. The other broker is nasty, boasting
about his boat's superiority (he did the custom woodwork himself) and
telling me he already has a contract, but his ads have remained
unchanged for the past 3 weeks since, and he won't reply to my emails.

Cheers,

Rich

Hi J,

Got that straight - I was just wondering how negotiable - boats which
sold new in 1995 for under $100k going for $55k to $105k ten years
later. Could make sense in a sellers' market, but last I heard it is
tough going selling boats.

So far my experience with brokers is strange. One broker is very nice,
ready to go to every effort to help the sale happen. Unluckily I
changed my mind about that boat. The other broker is nasty, boasting
about his boat's superiority (he did the custom woodwork himself) and
telling me he already has a contract, but his ads have remained
unchanged for the past 3 weeks since, and he won't reply to my emails.

Cheers,

Rich

Got that straight - I was just wondering how negotiable - boats which
sold new in 1995 for under $100k going for $55k to $105k ten years
later. Could make sense in a sellers' market, but last I heard it is
tough going selling boats.


*******************

Right now it's tough going finding enough boats to sell. Every broker I
know is doing a land-office business. At least here in the Pacific NW,
it is a seller's market, not a buyer's. Incredibly low interest rates
and a local economy that is beginning to recover have combined to bring
out the buyers.

There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat
depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still
brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn
out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used
boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the
same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact
that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use).
Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new
price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for
the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the
fact than it did when new.

I will be aboard a boat today that sold in the early 1980's, almost a
quarter century ago, for about $80,000. The boat is a decent value
today at $120,000. Factors involved include prices for comparable brand
new boats now marked at between 300-400,000- and the observation that
120,000 2005 dollars won't buy what 80,000 dollars would have brought
in 1980.

wrote in message
oups.com...
snip......
There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat
depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still
brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn
out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used
boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the
same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact
that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use).
Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new
price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for
the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the
fact than it did when new.

snip.....

My Sandpiper 565 might be an example.
Brand new when production started in 1974 a basic model cost less than $2k
CDN.....last year of manufacture in 1992 ...little over $9k CDN. Used
models now normally sell for $ 4500-5500 CDN and I've seen some advertised
over $ 8k.

Hi Don,

Glad to see you made good, especially if you're looking to sell your
Sandpiper 565. So it looks like there aren't quite enough boats out
there to satisfy demand sufficiently - unless there are too many of
some types of boats that can't find buyers, and categories of actively
marketed overpriced new boats creating a strong demand for too few used
models which meet the same demand?!?

Wow is this stuff getting confusing.

Rich

Hi Gould,

Thanks for your futher analysis.

QUOTE:

"There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat
depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still
brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn
out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used
boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the
same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact
that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use).
Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new

price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for
the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the

fact than it did when new."

END QUOTE

I'm sure you've nailed it he the new boat market is still in a
bubble. I've seen the exact same model 12.5 meter boat made by Aquanaut
which was offered to me NEW at a boatshow ten years ago for $100k
selling now for over $300k. If this holds true for used boats, some of
us may well wait to buy until the economy gets hit with hard enough a
sidebelt that some boatbuilders either close up shop or crunch their
pricing numbers significantly lower.

However, I don't necessarily think that you can establish a positive
mathematical relation between new and used boat prices, as they are
possibly not the same market population. For example, I for one would
never buy a new boat at today's prices although I regretfully didn't do
so ten years ago as per the example above. This may hold true for the
pricing of very recent used boats, when due to highly justified sticker
shock induced by market gouging pricing, new boat buyers try to soften
the blow by passing on the initial depreciation to a previous owner.
But those buying 10 to 20 year old boats are usually not, to my mind,
debating spending $200k on new versus $60k on used. Just my humble
opinion.

Respectfully,

Rich

Hi Gould,

Thanks for your futher analysis.

QUOTE:

"There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat
depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still
brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn
out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used
boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the
same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact
that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use).
Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new

price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for
the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the

fact than it did when new."

END QUOTE

I'm sure you've nailed it he the new boat market is still in a
bubble. I've seen the exact same model 12.5 meter boat made by Aquanaut
which was offered to me NEW at a boatshow ten years ago for $100k
selling now for over $300k. If this holds true for used boats, some of
us may well wait to buy until the economy gets hit with hard enough a
sidebelt that some boatbuilders either close up shop or crunch their
pricing numbers significantly lower.

However, I don't necessarily think that you can establish a positive
mathematical relation between new and used boat prices, as they are
possibly not the same market population. For example, I for one would
never buy a new boat at today's prices although I regretfully didn't do
so ten years ago as per the example above. This may hold true for the
pricing of very recent used boats, when due to highly justified sticker
shock induced by market gouging pricing, new boat buyers try to soften
the blow by passing on the initial depreciation to a previous owner.
But those buying 10 to 20 year old boats are usually not, to my mind,
debating spending $200k on new versus $60k on used. Just my humble
opinion.

Respectfully,

Rich

It was written:

Everything is negotiable. Everything. The boat's price, the brokers
commision, fees.

*******

By the way: if the broker decides to negotiate the commission it will
be with the seller (who has to pay the commission) rather than the
buyer.

Gould,
You are incorrect. The buyer can negotiate everything, even the brokers
commission fees. The seller is only interested in walking away with "X"
dollars. If the broker reducing his commission allows the seller to meet
his objectives and complete the sale, it is up for negotiation. The broker
may decide not to reduce his fee, but the buyer can still negotiate it.

Ever home I have purchased was the result of the broker taking 60% of his
normal commission rate. Since I was dealing directly with the listing
agent, the listing agent and broker both made more money than if they shared
the sale with another broker. When I presented my proposal, every brokers
initial response was NO. When they realized I was willing to walk away,
they were willing to reduce their commission and still come out ahead.

It was a win - win for everyone.




wrote in message
oups.com...
It was written:

Everything is negotiable. Everything. The boat's price, the brokers
commision, fees.

*******

By the way: if the broker decides to negotiate the commission it will
be with the seller (who has to pay the commission) rather than the
buyer.