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On 26-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote: They do not provide complete coverage which allows you to obtain hospitalization or surgery on demand in a Canadian hospital. Bull**** again. There are procedures that are not covered by government health insurance and these services are covered by the private insurers. These are scheduled by the doctors that perform the surgery. Mike |
On 26-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:
What does that make you, besides a stink-breath? Look who brags about being so mature. You _still_ haven't proved anything. Mike |
On 26-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote: My old medical insurance provided that I could go to any hospital in the world and get immediate treatment, including admission and surgery as necessary, without any delay, without any permission from anybody, and it would pay the bills. This is guaranteed to be bull****. Exactly which hospital has so much surplus capacity that it can provide any service on demand? Why has the administration of that hospital not responded to high operating costs to reduce surplus capacity? Any hospital that badly run should not get any business. Mike |
On 26-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:
Pot, kettle, black. Prove me wrong, dickhead - post some real proof for a change and not just some of your usual dithering and ranting. Mike |
On 26-Mar-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:
Not a single government bureaucrat involved. Don't confuse the idiot with facts. He only wants to believe what he reads in AP. Mike |
rick supposes...
=============== Apparently there already is, if you work for the feds, rcmp, militay, or are covered by the workers comp board. They do get to step out of line and go to private surgical clinics instead o waiting like the rest o the minions ============= And your basis for saying that is... ??? frtzw906 |
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:
Scott asserts: ============== Neither. I'm saying that no amount of health care insurance in Canada will get you into a hospital or surgical suite ahead of anyone higher on the priority list than you. ============== And are you suggesting that there ought to be some sort of insurance coverage that could get you higher on the priority list? Just curious. Of course. Everyone should be able to seek out a hospital and/or a surgeon that can provide service immediately. In Canada, while people sit on waiting lists, beds in hospitals are empty or occupied by chronically-ill patients. Even if your local hospital is idle, if you're not at the top of the list, they won't help you. In the US, if one hospital is full, you go find another that isn't and get service right away. -- Regards, Scott Weiser "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM © 2005 Scott Weiser |
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:
Scott asserts (incorrectly): ============= You only get to go into the hospital if some government bureaucrat decides you "need" to do so, and you "need" to do so more urgently than somebody else. If they don't think you "need" to be admitted, or if they don't have room, you're ****ed, and you have to come to the US and pay the full price for your care. ================ Scott, my doctor determines whether I get admitted to hospital. No, your doctor recommends that you be admitted. The government determines where you fall on the priority list. Several members of my family have had cases where, upon diagnosis in the family physician's office, they were IMMEDIATELY sent to the hospital. The doctor phoned while they were enroute. Upon arriving, a bed was available. Within 24 hours, surgery had been performed. Yup. While at the same time, teenagers who need knee surgery have to wait three years. Not a single government bureaucrat involved. Oh, they're there, you just don't see them. They work behind the scenes prioritizing patients and sending letters to people telling them to wait, and apologizing if they die in the process. Oh, BTW, what would be the official title of this gov't bureaucrat? I know of no such position within the system: kommisar of hospital admittance LOL.... I hate to disappoint you, but doctors have considerable clout within our system. Not if you're not critical they don't. -- Regards, Scott Weiser "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM © 2005 Scott Weiser |
A Usenet persona calling itself Michael Daly wrote:
On 26-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote: There is no proof your "policy" exists to begin with, there is merely your assertion that it does. There is only an assertion by soem AP reporter that the law exists. She's credible. You aren't. Fact is I have looked it up, Fine - tell us where. Canadian health care statutes and policy guide. You're still full of ****. You're still lapping it up. -- Regards, Scott Weiser "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM © 2005 Scott Weiser |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... rick supposes... =============== Apparently there already is, if you work for the feds, rcmp, militay, or are covered by the workers comp board. They do get to step out of line and go to private surgical clinics instead o waiting like the rest o the minions ============= And your basis for saying that is... ??? "...The Health Resource Centre, a 37-bed clinic at 1402 8th Ave. SW, will only be allowed to work on Canadians covered under the Workers' Compensation Board insurance, or employees of the federal government, the military or RCMP. Under the plan 24 surgeons, 62 nurses and support staff will be able to perform 441 surgeries. Americans not covered by Canadian medicare can pay for the surgeries but no Canadian will be allowed to pay for a surgery to jump the queue..." http://www.cupe40.org/klein_defends_...surgery_cl.htm |
rick cites:
============ The Health Resource Centre, a 37-bed clinic at 1402 8th Ave. SW, will only be allowed to work on Canadians covered under the Workers' Compensation Board insurance, or employees of the federal government, the military or RCMP. =============== That was 2002. Are you sure that's still the case? Are you aware of Premier Klein's relationship with the feds? As I'm sure, as an American, you're familiar with state's rights. Are you aware of provincial rights? But, more to the point, are you aware how federal funding to provnces is affected by deviation from the federal healthcare plan? The relationship we're talking about is not so simple as to be explained by a 3-year old newspaper article. Given that we're talking about Premier Klein, I'm not surprised. What I'm curious about is if this situation still exists in 2005. frtzw906 |
Scott insists:
=============== Everyone should be able to seek out a hospital and/or a surgeon that can provide service immediately. In Canada, while people sit on waiting lists, beds in hospitals are empty or occupied by chronically-ill patients. Even if your local hospital is idle, if you're not at the top of the list, they won't help you. =============== If beds are empty and the hospital is idle, why wouldn't they help you? It seems to me, you get waiting lists (waits of any kind) when enterprises (including hospitals) are operating at or near capacity. You'll wait when there are no more beds, no more doctors, or no more nurses. What other reason would there be to wait? One of the most discussed waits in Canada appears to be MRI's. It seems we've not bought enough. On the other hand, it appears they're as commonplace as slurpy machines at a 7-11 in the USA. Quite likely, we've been a bit miserly when it comes to MRI's. On the other hand, all the private clinics in the USA which sport these spiffy macines are going to have to recoup their investments. This they do by taking it out of the pockets of those who require the MRI. So, wait for a couple of days in Canada, or wait a few minutes in the USA (and pay dearly for the convenience). If hospitals are "idle", there's absolutely no waiting. They quickly spring into action. Where do you get your data?! frtzw906 |
Scott on government bureaucrats:
================ Oh, they're there, you just don't see them. They work behind the scenes prioritizing patients and sending letters to people telling them to wait, and apologizing if they die in the process. ============== So, like the boogey-man under your bed, eh? Look, you still haven't told me "who" this bureaucrat might be. What's his/her title. Would you be referring to hospital administrators? Methinks you've got them in American hospitals too. Doing pretty-much the same thing (except no need to show a profit in Canada). Please, find out for me who these bureaucrats are. frtzw906 |
Scott, commenting on many (most) in Canada getting immediate ca
================== Yup. While at the same time, teenagers who need knee surgery have to wait three years. ================== Notwithstanding the protestations of rick, several of us from Canada have commented on, and admitted, that one of the consequences of our style of healthcare is that, for some procedures, there are waiting lists. That's a fact. But it's a price we're willing to pay, so that we can provide immediate care for most of the people, for most procedures, most of the time. So let's take the cae you bring up: teenagers who need knee surgery. I don't know if teenagers in Canada who need knee surgery nmust wait 3 years as you claim. [Aside: you might be able to pull such an isolated case out of the archives somewhere, but it is unlikely to be the rule.] Now let's switch our focus to the USA for one moment. Let's also assume a teenager who needs knee surgery. Let's further assume that this kid's family is uninsured. Can we expect that she'll get immediate attention at her local hospital? Or will she need to wait? Is it likely that as people with insurance arrive, some "bureaucrat" in the hospital will priorize and thereby establish a "waiting list"? Can you assure me that, under the American system, the teenager will get immediate attention, ahead of those with (a) more emergent need (after all, she did arrive ahead of them) and (b) those with equivalent need but covered by insurance? Tell me about your waiting lists for non-emergent cases without insurance, OK? frtzw906 |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... rick cites: ============ The Health Resource Centre, a 37-bed clinic at 1402 8th Ave. SW, will only be allowed to work on Canadians covered under the Workers' Compensation Board insurance, or employees of the federal government, the military or RCMP. =============== That was 2002. Are you sure that's still the case? Are you aware of Premier Klein's relationship with the feds? As I'm sure, as an American, you're familiar with state's rights. Are you aware of provincial rights? But, more to the point, are you aware how federal funding to provnces is affected by deviation from the federal healthcare plan? The relationship we're talking about is not so simple as to be explained by a 3-year old newspaper article. Given that we're talking about Premier Klein, I'm not surprised. What I'm curious about is if this situation still exists in 2005. ===================== Seems pretty simple to me. If you work for the right people you get to go ahead of the rest. Maybe that's the problem, it's too simple for some jingoistic apologists, eh? Looks the same today, but then, you'd never want to bother to check on that, right? http://www.pentictonherald.ca/?nopic...ate=2004/09/15 statement from a guy waiting 2 years for knee replacments, and in now on morphine because of the wait... "...A friend who had been waiting a long time for lower back surgery had an accident at work and made a claim to the WCB. "He gets three MRIs, two CAT scans, and he's in to see the surgeon within 30 days. They don't want to pay him while he's off work. They want him in there right away, and they want the claim settled," said Binfet. The Canada Health Act requires there be equitable access to care, said Linda Mueller, public affairs officer with the Ministry of Health Services in Victoria. However, certain organizations are excluded from the requirements of the act, she said Tuesday. ICBC is not one of them, but the WCB, the RCMP and the Canadian Armed Forces are..." And, to add insult to those waiting, they also use the same public hospitals with long wait lines as well as private clinics.. "...the WCB uses public clinics during hours they would normally be closed as well as private clinics to offer expedited services to B.C.'s injured workers. The WCB pays specialists a premium for this service..." http://www.worksafebc.com/for_health...rs/default.asp frtzw906 |
rick asks:
================ Looks the same today, but then, you'd never want to bother to check on that, right? ================= Well as a matter of fact, I was aware of the armed forces, the RCMP, and WCB cases. I never denied it in any of my posts. I am not aware, however, that federal employees other than the armed forces and the RCMP get such consideration. That's why I asked you for your source. As to the exceptions you state, I don't necessarily like them, but I suppose we could make cases for the armed forces and perhaps the RCMP. I disagree with WCB clients getting preferential treatment. It's a flaw in the system. Let's fix it. frtzw906 |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... rick asks: ================ Looks the same today, but then, you'd never want to bother to check on that, right? ================= Well as a matter of fact, I was aware of the armed forces, the RCMP, and WCB cases. I never denied it in any of my posts. I am not aware, however, that federal employees other than the armed forces and the RCMP get such consideration. That's why I asked you for your source. As to the exceptions you state, I don't necessarily like them, but I suppose we could make cases for the armed forces and perhaps the RCMP. I disagree with WCB clients getting preferential treatment. It's a flaw in the system. Let's fix it. ================== By the way you've been reasoning that means making sure that everyone again waits weeks, months, years for teatment. If you were aware of the exceptions, then why have you been arguing like there were none? frtzw906 |
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"BCITORGB" wrote in message ups.com... Scott, commenting on many (most) in Canada getting immediate ca ================== Yup. While at the same time, teenagers who need knee surgery have to wait three years. ================== Notwithstanding the protestations of rick, several of us from Canada have commented on, and admitted, that one of the consequences of our style of healthcare is that, for some procedures, there are waiting lists. That's a fact. But it's a price we're willing to pay, so that we can provide immediate care for most of the people, for most procedures, most of the time. ======================== Despite the jingoistic spewing of others, here is a ase of a man, not a teen, waiting for new knees. 2 1/2 years. It's so bad that it is now bone on bone and his pain meds have been upped to morphine. http://www.pentictonherald.ca/?nopic...ate=2004/09/15 This guy isn't willing to wait. Why would you support that he has to? Then there are the people dying from heat problems while waiting. http://www.ices.on.ca/file/14_CVA_Chapter12.pdf. So let's take the cae you bring up: teenagers who need knee surgery. I don't know if teenagers in Canada who need knee surgery nmust wait 3 years as you claim. [Aside: you might be able to pull such an isolated case out of the archives somewhere, but it is unlikely to be the rule.] Now let's switch our focus to the USA for one moment. Let's also assume a teenager who needs knee surgery. Let's further assume that this kid's family is uninsured. Can we expect that she'll get immediate attention at her local hospital? Or will she need to wait? Is it likely that as people with insurance arrive, some "bureaucrat" in the hospital will priorize and thereby establish a "waiting list"? Can you assure me that, under the American system, the teenager will get immediate attention, ahead of those with (a) more emergent need (after all, she did arrive ahead of them) and (b) those with equivalent need but covered by insurance? Tell me about your waiting lists for non-emergent cases without insurance, OK? frtzw906 |
in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 3/26/05 2:54 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote: in article , Scott Weiser at wrote on 3/25/05 6:55 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote: in article , Scott Weiser at wrote on 3/25/05 4:57 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote: Scott demonstrates that he doesn't understand renters and rent: ================ For example, my property taxes pay for schools. I pay property taxes because I own property, therefore I support schools. But many of Boulder's residents are renters and do not own property, and thus do not pay any property taxes. They are not participating in supporting schools, and yet schools exist. By your metric, they are "selfish prigs" who have opted-out by evading property taxes. ============ And the renters pay "property" tax through their rents. Or don't you think the landlords pass their property taxes on to the renters by way of higher rents? If that doesn't happen in Boulder, your landlords must be very charitable indeed. Ah, the "indirect taxation" argument. Sorry, doesn't wash. Yes, a landlord may charge more on rent to cover his property taxes, but remember that there is only one property tax assessment per property, and the rate is the same for each class of property, no matter how many people live on it and no matter how much the owner profits from renting space. Thus, 50 renters in an apartment building split the costs of the property tax, which is based on the acreage of land, not the income from rents, and so they are, essentially, free riders on the system. They get to send their kids to public school but only have to pay a fraction of what I, for example, pay. And I don't have any kids in public school at all. A much more equitable system is to levy school taxes on those who actually use the schools, or at least find a way to levy school taxes on a per-capita basis for people residing in the community rather than placing the burden on property owners while letting non-property owners to ride essentially free. And then there's the people who have kids but pay to put them in private schools. Why should they have to pay for public schools too? Shouldn't the tax dollars collected for allegedly schooling their children follow the *children*, no matter what school they attend? Haha. Sure, if you want to eliminate public schools. That's precisely what I want to do. I know. That's what a lot of people who have some intelligence and understanding of free-market economics want to do. That's what selfish prigs want to do. Not everybody who wants to eliminate government waste and inefficient, ineffective public schools is a "selfish prig." Demanding less wasteful, more efficient, and more effective public schools - and getting off your ass and contributing to that - is different from whining about it and wanting them shut down so you can keep more of your own money. Most of them are far more concerned about the education of children than you are. Oh dear, you aren't making a judgement about me are you? How do you know what my level of concern is? They simply realize that the free market, combined with a minimal amount of taxpayer-funded stipends for the truly disadvantaged will result in a much better system of childhood education. It will result in education for the wealthy. There is no free market incentive to provide education to the poor. I have a perfect understanding of free market ecomomics. Remarkable. Why is it then that you are not the world's leading economist, to whom all others, with their imperfect understanding, go to for advice? Could it be that you overestimate your understanding? Free market economics is quite simple. It also doesn't exist anywhere. The outcome of applying free market economics to education and health care is marginalize the poor and divide society into a rigid system of haves and have-nots. Socialist twaddle. There's no profit in educating people who can't afford to pay. Doing so will result in better, cheaper, more widely available education, and combined with a modest stipend for the very poor, garnered from a consumer goods national sales tax, it will provide the closest thing to high-quality, universally-available education we can have. Absolutely insane. What an erudite and reasoned rebuttal from the only person on the planet with a "perfect understanding" of free market economics. How do you define free market economics Scotty? What is it you see in your definition that leads you to believe that private sector educational insitutions will be motivated to educate the poor in a free market economy? |
in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 3/26/05 3:09 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote: in article , Michael Daly at wrote on 3/25/05 9:36 PM: On 25-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote: HOSPITALIZATION and SURGERY. It does not, by law. Which law? Provide proof. The supplemental policies _do_ provide for hospitalization and surgery. It is you who is too ignorant to accept the truth. Mike What's he trying to say Mike? That we can't have health insurance? Or that it can't be used for hospital care? Neither. I'm saying that no amount of health care insurance in Canada will get you into a hospital or surgical suite ahead of anyone higher on the priority list than you. That it may cover all sorts of things that Canada's socialized medical system doesn't cover is beside the point. If you cannot use your insurance to guarantee you a room or surgery when YOU need it, not when the government decides to provide it to you, it's nothing more than palliative and gives you nothing more than a few perks in the hospital, provided you don't die waiting to be admitted. If you are saying that supplemental health care insurance in Canada won't allow me to skip ahead of some other person in the emergency room, that is quite true. My old medical insurance provided that I could go to any hospital in the world and get immediate treatment, including admission and surgery as necessary, without any delay, without any permission from anybody, and it would pay the bills. You only get to go into the hospital if some government bureaucrat decides you "need" to do so You don't have a clue. I can go to the hospital right now and see a doctor. But it would make more sense to go to one of the nice GP clinics unless it's a serious emergency. and you "need" to do so more urgently than somebody else. Well, yeah, like any hospital, there are only so many doctors on duty. If a busload of kids crashes and they are coming in with burns and severed limbs and I am there with my sprained ankle, you are right, I will probably have to wait. If they don't think you "need" to be admitted, or if they don't have room, you're ****ed, and you have to come to the US and pay the full price for your care. Having lived here for 30+ years I have yet to meet one person where this has ever happened. I have read about a small number of cases where people have sought specialized treatment in the US. Have you ever been to Canada? If so, where? Did you ever visit a doctor's office, clinic, or hospital? Most people here have a family doctor that they see regularly. I have one. His office has an after hours service as well. If it is regular business hours, I can get an appointment with him pretty much whenever I want one. If it is after hours, I can see one of the other doctors that he shares his practice with for after hours care. About two blocks from his office is a nice hospital, where I have been, and friends and family have been, for everything from what turned out to be stomach flu to one of my best friends that had cancer (with the help of many fine doctors he beat it). |
in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 3/26/05 3:19 PM: KMAN: ============= I was quite surprised to find more slightly more smokers in Canada. I bet a lot of Canadians would be surprised by that, although I remember encountering "smoke free" shopping malls in areas of the US long before most places in Canada caught on. I know the gap is only 2% but it still surprised me. =============== I too was surprised by that stat. Interestingly (my anecdotal observation only), the further east one travels in Canada, the more one is likely to encounter smoking. Here on the left coast, smokers are definitely an anomaly. Wilf Yes, but there is more spandex. |
rick reckons:
============== By the way you've been reasoning that means making sure that everyone again waits weeks, months, years for teatment. ==================== Not at all. How do you figure that? rick again: =================== If you were aware of the exceptions, then why have you been arguing like there were none? =============== Where did you see me arguing as though there were none? Everyone (in BC anyway, if they follow media reports) is aware of the WCB exemptions, and many are opposed to it. As I said: a flaw, so let's fix it. frtzw906 |
rick reports:
============ Despite the jingoistic spewing of others, here is a ase of a man, not a teen, waiting for new knees. 2 1/2 years. It's so bad that it is now bone on bone and his pain meds have been upped to morphine. http://www.pentictonherald.ca/?nopic...ate=2004/09/15 This guy isn't willing to wait. Why would you support that he has to? ================ rick, that's an interesting article that presents us with a number of factors to consider. First of all, we're not exactly talking an urban setting here. Penticton is a small town which has only one orthopedic surgeon. THIS surgeon's waiting list is 290-plus. Further, let's examine why there might be that many on the waiting list. Penticton is not only an orchard/vineyard agricultural center, but it is also a preferred retirement center for many Canadians. Hence, there are a great many older, retired folk in this community. Net result: high demand for joint replacements. I suspect the man in question, in this article, could get referred to orthopedic surgeons in other centers (perhaps Vancouver) where there are likely to be more orthopedic surgeons (greater supply, hence less waiting). The guy in question, however, is unwilling to shut down his business for a few days to have the procedure done elsewhere. At this point, I take a Scott Weiser approach to him: "Tough ****!" I think it unrealistic, living in a nation as sparsely populatd as Canada, to expect every medical convenience in every nook and cranny of this huge nation. For purposes of efficiency and economies, some services (medical and otherwise) are only going to be available in major centers. This guy bemoans the fact that shutting down his business, to have the surgery done elsewhere, will cost him $220/day. Hey, I live in an urban center, and just on house values alone I'll bet I spend $400-$500 more per month on my mortgage than he does. The Weiser sapproach again: "Suck it up buddy, and take a trip to Vancouver and get your surgery done." An interesting quote: "Binfet said it would cost $45,000 US to have the surgery done in Bellingham, Wash., and that's for one knee only. "I can't afford it," he said." Hey the guy needs two knees done. That's $90,000. He can't afford it. The bottom line is, I thinks there's much more to the story than just the headline. Interesting, nonetheless. frtzw906 |
rick:
============== http://www.ices.on.ca/file/14_CVA_Chapter12.pdf . ================= Thanks also for this very informative source: Some key points: Urgent Coronary By-pass surgery done almost immediately... semi-urgent had a wait of about 5 days... elective about 55 days... that doesn't seem bad to me... Waiting List Mortality for Cardiac Surgery in Ontario: 0.5 percent (I have no idea how that compares with stats around the world - it's cardiac surgery, i guess there'll always be people dying...) Perhaps there are medical professionals out there who could answer: should the people of Ontario be concerned by those numbers? frtzw906 |
KMAN commenting on less smoking on the Left Coast:
=============== Yes, but there is more spandex. ================= True, but also more people who can actually wear the stuff and look good doing so. That would, however, not include me GRIN. Make mine a double latte, eh. Wilf |
On 26-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:
She's credible. You aren't. Just because you believe anything you read doesn't make the writer credible. Canadian health care statutes and policy guide. Be specific. Otherwise, we'll know you're just bull****ting again. Mike |
On 26-Mar-2005, "rick" wrote: They do get to step out of line and go to private surgical clinics instead o waiting like the rest o the minions... This is bull**** as well. There are a lot of folks that can go to private clinics and avoid lines. The health care ministers pretend that this doesn't happen. Mike |
On 26-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote: No, your doctor recommends that you be admitted. The government determines where you fall on the priority list. Bull****. No government agency sets the priorities. Yup. While at the same time, teenagers who need knee surgery have to wait three years. Prove it. Oh, they're there, you just don't see them. They work behind the scenes prioritizing patients and sending letters to people telling them to wait, and apologizing if they die in the process Paranoid fantasies on your part. Not if you're not critical they don't. Bull**** again. You make this up as you go along. Mike |
Further to rick's post:
================= http://www.pentictonherald.ca/?nopic...ate=2004/09/15 ============== This article also nicely puts to rest Scott's notions of some huge bureaucracy of socialist technocrats pulling the healthcare strings in Canada. In the case in question, the lone orthopedic surgeon in a small town can't cope with the waiting list for joint replacements. Why, if there are such bureaucrats, don't they just "order" some orthopedic surgeons from more urban centers to go to this community to help out? Could it be that there are no such bureaucrats. And, on top of that, could it be that doctors operate as entrepreneurs and most choose not to live in smaller communities. frtzw906 |
in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 3/27/05 12:25 PM: KMAN commenting on less smoking on the Left Coast: =============== Yes, but there is more spandex. ================= True, but also more people who can actually wear the stuff and look good doing so. That would, however, not include me GRIN. Make mine a double latte, eh. Wilf Agh. More snotty types of coffee too :-) But you are probably right about the spandex. |
KMAN disparages:
============= Agh. More snotty types of coffee too :-) =========== Hmmmm... not that I'm aware of. I generally wipe the barista's nose before I let him near my lattes. We have been known, however, to be a tad snooty about quality of the biscotti we'll ingest -- only imported, don't you know. Wilf |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... rick reports: ============ Despite the jingoistic spewing of others, here is a ase of a man, not a teen, waiting for new knees. 2 1/2 years. It's so bad that it is now bone on bone and his pain meds have been upped to morphine. http://www.pentictonherald.ca/?nopic...ate=2004/09/15 This guy isn't willing to wait. Why would you support that he has to? ================ rick, that's an interesting article that presents us with a number of factors to consider. First of all, we're not exactly talking an urban setting here. Penticton is a small town which has only one orthopedic surgeon. THIS surgeon's waiting list is 290-plus. Further, let's examine why there might be that many on the waiting list. Penticton is not only an orchard/vineyard agricultural center, but it is also a preferred retirement center for many Canadians. Hence, there are a great many older, retired folk in this community. Net result: high demand for joint replacements. ============================= Let's also see that there are other sugeons in the area. This guy just cannot avail himself of them because of a have, have-not system. He is loked into a waiting list despite there being available capacity. I suspect the man in question, in this article, could get referred to orthopedic surgeons in other centers (perhaps Vancouver) where there are likely to be more orthopedic surgeons (greater supply, hence less waiting). The guy in question, however, is unwilling to shut down his business for a few days to have the procedure done elsewhere. At this point, I take a Scott Weiser approach to him: "Tough ****!" ==================== Looks like you're reading that into the story, not reading it. Why would he have looked into going to the states for treatment if he was unwilling to leave at all. I doubt that he can go to other facilities in the health system he is tied to. I think it unrealistic, living in a nation as sparsely populatd as Canada, to expect every medical convenience in every nook and cranny of this huge nation. For purposes of efficiency and economies, some services (medical and otherwise) are only going to be available in major centers. This guy bemoans the fact that shutting down his business, to have the surgery done elsewhere, will cost him $220/day. Hey, I live in an urban center, and just on house values alone I'll bet I spend $400-$500 more per month on my mortgage than he does. The Weiser sapproach again: "Suck it up buddy, and take a trip to Vancouver and get your surgery done." An interesting quote: "Binfet said it would cost $45,000 US to have the surgery done in Bellingham, Wash., and that's for one knee only. "I can't afford it," he said." Hey the guy needs two knees done. That's $90,000. He can't afford it. The bottom line is, I thinks there's much more to the story than just the headline. Interesting, nonetheless. frtzw906 |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... rick: ============== http://www.ices.on.ca/file/14_CVA_Chapter12.pdf . ================= Thanks also for this very informative source: Some key points: Urgent Coronary By-pass surgery done almost immediately... semi-urgent had a wait of about 5 days... elective about 55 days... that doesn't seem bad to me... Waiting List Mortality for Cardiac Surgery in Ontario: 0.5 percent (I have no idea how that compares with stats around the world - it's cardiac surgery, i guess there'll always be people dying...) Perhaps there are medical professionals out there who could answer: should the people of Ontario be concerned by those numbers? ========================== There are doctors there that think so... http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/170/3/354 frtzw906 |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message ups.com... rick reckons: ============== By the way you've been reasoning that means making sure that everyone again waits weeks, months, years for teatment. ==================== Not at all. How do you figure that? ================= Because what you really want is for 'special' treatment to end, thereby making everyone wait like they do now. You aren't going to 'fix' the problems you have now. That's why these private clinics are coming into being. rick again: =================== If you were aware of the exceptions, then why have you been arguing like there were none? =============== Where did you see me arguing as though there were none? Everyone (in BC anyway, if they follow media reports) is aware of the WCB exemptions, and many are opposed to it. As I said: a flaw, so let's fix it. ================== You've continued to argue that no one has any special treatment. That there are no ways to get ahead o the waiting lists. frtzw906 |
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"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 26-Mar-2005, "rick" wrote: They do get to step out of line and go to private surgical clinics instead o waiting like the rest o the minions... This is bull**** as well. There are a lot of folks that can go to private clinics and avoid lines. The health care ministers pretend that this doesn't happen. ================== LOL Thanks for admitting I'm right. There is a dual system already in place in Canada. The prefered get to have their treatment first, regardless of how many more serious cases may be in front of them. Maybe the ministers pretend it doesn't happen because they also take advantage of the system. Mike |
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LOL Thanks for admitting I'm right. There is a dual system already in place in Canada. The prefered get to have their treatment first, regardless of how many more serious cases may be in front of them. Maybe the ministers pretend it doesn't happen because they also take advantage of the system. As one who lives in Ottawa I can assure you that Minsters and their staff are among the preferred. Queue jumping among those in control occurs in every socialist system. It only works according to the theory for the little people who pay the cost. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
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