A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Scott claims:
============
It's just that I haven't seen a system which works better
than what we have in the US (including Colorado) anywhere in the world,
and
I've seen many that are much, much worse, including, notably, every
socialist state on earth.
============

WOW! You've "seen" every socialist state on earth?!

Don't pettifog.


Scott boasts:
===========
Hey, we've got a great system here, why shouldn't I use it as a
touchstone?
===============

One those issues on which we agree --sort of. You have a pretty good
system and it makes for a good touchstone. But, there's also plenty
wrong with it and, guess what, occasionally other nations have figured
out how to do things better.

Really? Name one.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Scott:
============
I don¹t recall either, but that's an easy one: Yes, but with some
reservations...

Good to see you coming over to the bright side GRIN
============

I'll bet we could explore plenty of issues in the realm of social
libertarianism and find common ground... waddya think? Do you fancy
yourself a social libertarian?

Not really. I do admire some libertarian principles, but not all, or even
most of them. They unfortunately mix in some really stupid ideas with some
very good ones. Libertarian dogma has one prime failu it presumes the
universal existence of something that is in fact pretty rare in human
behavior: altruism.

I don¹t think there's a category for my political beliefs. I subscribe to
some parts of many different philosophies. If I have a core belief, it's one
of ordered individual liberty that recognizes some vital truths of human
nature, combined with a strong belief in personal accountability and
responsibility, and a disdain for whining, excuses and avoidance of
consequences.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Scott:
===========
The argument made in the various letters from the Health Ministers of
Canada
worrying that a two-tier system would cause problems because the
clinics
would "cherry pick" the easy cases while leaving the hard, expensive
cases
to the state is idiocy.
============

Idiocy to you, but true. If one believes in a universal program of any
sort (I know you may not), then that program needs to be protected
against exactly that: cherry picking.

Why? What harm is caused by "cherry picking?" All it does is reduce the
costs of medical care for the poor, thus allowing them to get better care by
reducing the demand on the public system, while allowing individuals to
exercise personal liberty and seek out (and pay for) whatever medical care
they can afford.

"Cherry picking" is only bad when reducing the pool denies those excluded
access to the benefit.


Here in BC we have a "universal" auto insurance plan: if you want to
drive, you MUST have insurance.

What kind of insurance? Liability or personal injury?

Allow me to paint with a broad brush to
make my point -- there are minor and trivial exceptions to what I'm
about to say. And the insurance you buy MUST be provided by a
Provincial Crown Coporation. You may not buy your BASIC coverage from
anyone else. Why? Because, if the corporation is to gain the benefits
that come from having this monopoly and is to be able to provide the
blanket, global coverage the corporation was set up to provide, then it
cannot afford to have private insurers cherry-pick the low-risk
clients, leaving the crown corp to pick up the difficult, expensive
clients. [BTW, the premiums compare quite favorably to other
jurisdictions across Canada that use the private model]

Correct. This is true of insurance plans that are allowed to exclude people
and are allowed to control risks by excluding (by price or otherwise) those
who pose higher risks to the actuarial pool.

However, this problem does not apply when *everyone* is in the pool, by law,
and when the premium payments are extracted equally from everyone by
taxation, not by individual premium payments for those who are "in the plan"
or based on their perceived position in the actuarial risk tables.

In this case, people who choose voluntarily NOT to take advantage of the
coverage by buying and paying for their own insurance *which is additional
to the mandatory government coverage, for which they have to pay anyway* do
nothing but BENEFIT the members of the pool by NOT extracting money from the
pool when they can, and choose to pay the bills themselves.

"Cherry picking" is only a problem if the *individuals* in the pool are
allowed to opt out entirely and thereby not have to pay into the pool.

If, however, they remain in the pool, and have to pay into the pool
irrespective of whether they buy supplemental insurance or choose to pay for
the incurred debts in cash from their own assets, there is ABSOLUTELY NO
HARM to the pool as a whole, and in fact it benefits the pool by reducing
payouts.



Further, an anecdotal example of cherry-picking (that really ****es me
off): in the elementary school my daughters attended, there were two
sisters, one of whom was severely handicapped. The parents,
dissatisfied with the education their daughters were getting at this
school, took the daughter who was not handicapped, and sent her to a
very expensive private school. By doing so, they further diminished the
academic calibre of the school by taking a very bright girl out, and
leaving a handicapped one. This sort of cherry-picking diminishes our
ability to provide quality to everyone.

Hold on a second! You cannot compare the economic effects of insurance
cherry picking with some sort of "intellectual premium payment" that you
suggest a parent or child owes a school. What you suggest is that
exceptional children must be "leveled out," or required to suffer an
educational environment that does not best exploit their learning abilities
merely in order to provide some kind of egalitarian "level playing field"
for other children.

What you suggest is akin to educational slavery. You suggest that a bright
child, who can benefit from a higher quality, more expensive education that
her parents can both afford and wish to give to her, ought to be forced into
an inferior (for her) school in order to benefit *other* children. That's
just wrong. No parent, and no child, should be required to sacrifice
educational opportunities at the altar of socialist egalitarianism. Children
ought not to be made into sociopolitical pawns to salve what I intuit as
your bruised academic ego.

As for the "handicapped" one, she has a RIGHT to that education, by your
own argument, and to suggest that her presence drags down the educational
environment for other children, which ought to be balanced out by forcing
her sister into academic slavery, is astonishingly uncaring and dismissive
of the fundamental value of each child, no matter how handicapped. I can't
believe you really mean this.

I understand that you may not ascribe to that philosophy, but I do. If
one ascribes to that philosophy, then cherry-picking can not be
permitted.

What I see as implicit in your argument is that you believe that no one
should be allowed to excel or enjoy individual success above any other. This
is the essence of socialistic oppression, and it's why socialism always
fails.
--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott:
===========
Hey, there are *lots* of opportunities to make a profit, even in police
departments. Do you think the police officers, or the professors and
custodians work for FREE?
============

I'm not clear on what you're trying to say.

You're right, I don't work for free. But that still doesn't explain how
a university (a state university) makes a profit.


I didn't say the university made a profit, I said, quite specifically,
"there are profits to be made."

Universities are profit generators. That the university itself doesn't show
a profit is irrelevant, they are a huge part of the economy of most
communities, not just from wages and compensation for employees, but to the
community that serves the students and faculty. And then there are the
scientific discoveries that universities foster and patent. They, and the
public, share in the profits accruing from such things.

People support universities not simply because they provide advanced
knowledge, but because they are massive profit-generating engines for the
communities and the nation as a whole.

================

Man Scott, you're sounding more and more left-wing by the hour. Have you
finally started taking your meds? ;-)

You sound just a tad weaselly what with: 'I said, quite specifically,
"there are profits to be made.'"

But, you are quite right in your assessment of the impact of
universities on their communities. However, that still leaves us with
your initial assertion that med school respond to market demand for
doctors.

The answer is still "Nope." They respond to "political" or government
demand for more admissions into med school. Simply because, from a
purely market perspective, there's "nothing" in it for the university to
invest in all that is involved in running a med school. Much cheaper to
open another 20 section in the MBA program. But "society" (read
government) recognizes that we sure as hell don't need more MBA's (or
lawyers), but we (USA and Canada) do need more nurses and doctors. So,
as per my previous post, the government mandates (recall that direct
line between the governor's mansion and the University president's
office -- via the Regents) that admissions to the med schools be increased.

This is all part of the non-private, not-for-profit part of the economy
(polity) that you like to deny and disparage.

But, it seems, from this post, you do GET IT! WELL DONE!

frtzw906

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott queries:
================

Well done Scott! Good research. Your editorials, however, most often
missed the mark. I'll take these points up with you at a later date
(there's just WAY TOO MUCH you interpreted incorrectly!).

The question you should ask yourself is whether that "incorrect
interpretation" is deliberate or not.
============

Well the options that spring most immediately to mind are (a) yes, you
are deliberately misinterpreting so as to continue to cling to and
spread false information or (b) no, but you're not bright enough to be
able to understand what was written.

Are there other options?


Indeed. There's (c) as well. Can you figure out what it might be? I've given
you many clues.


=============
I'm not in the mood for guessing games.

frtzw906

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:


If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)

I agree. I see his statement as being poorly thought out and articulated,
not calculatedly insulting.


Now to your point, that is exactly what will happen. It's so obvious...poor
people and/or those more difficult to work with will be left behind. What is
the incentive of a profit-driven school to serve them? None.

The incentive is exactly the same as it is for any student: money.

So long as poor children are given a stipend by the government (collected
from society as a whole through taxation) to provide for schooling, they
will be just exactly as welcome as any other student.

Yes, some students will be able to afford better schooling, but so what? The
intent is to provide an adequate education, not a perfect education, for all
children. Some children will excel, some will be average, and some will
fail. All will have a reasonable and fair opportunity to get a basic
education. No more ought to be expected by anyone.

Indeed, such a private system is more egalitarian than what exists now
because it *requires* those who have the means to pay for their children's
education to do so, thus taking the burden of educating those children off
of the public, leaving that much more money available for the truly needy.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott claims:
============
It's just that I haven't seen a system which works better
than what we have in the US (including Colorado) anywhere in the world,
and
I've seen many that are much, much worse, including, notably, every
socialist state on earth.
============

WOW! You've "seen" every socialist state on earth?!


Don't pettifog.


Scott boasts:
===========
Hey, we've got a great system here, why shouldn't I use it as a
touchstone?
===============

One those issues on which we agree --sort of. You have a pretty good
system and it makes for a good touchstone. But, there's also plenty
wrong with it and, guess what, occasionally other nations have figured
out how to do things better.


Really? Name one.


We've been down this road before, so I won't spend too long on it, but
so far as "elections" are concerned, Canada, for example does a better
job -- no hanging chads, etc. AS far as "system" of government
(bicameral, judiciary, etc), Germany is a nation that has taken the
American model and improved on it. Any number of nations do a better job
of educating their children... Need I go on?

frtzw906

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott:
============
I don¹t recall either, but that's an easy one: Yes, but with some
reservations...


Good to see you coming over to the bright side GRIN

============

I'll bet we could explore plenty of issues in the realm of social
libertarianism and find common ground... waddya think? Do you fancy
yourself a social libertarian?


Not really. I do admire some libertarian principles, but not all, or even
most of them. They unfortunately mix in some really stupid ideas with some
very good ones. Libertarian dogma has one prime failu it presumes the
universal existence of something that is in fact pretty rare in human
behavior: altruism.

=============
I lean to libertarian views when it comes to "victimless crimes". I find
that, as a society, we cause ourselves all sorts of headaches by trying
to impose "moral" values on everyone. Values that intrude into the
bedroom. Values that presume to know what people ought to (or not)
ingest. etc

frtzw906


I don¹t think there's a category for my political beliefs. I subscribe to
some parts of many different philosophies. If I have a core belief, it's one
of ordered individual liberty that recognizes some vital truths of human
nature, combined with a strong belief in personal accountability and
responsibility, and a disdain for whining, excuses and avoidance of
consequences.

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Thanks to KMAN:
============
If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like
the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)
=============

You're right, none intended.

As I was writing, I occasionally was about to write "disabled" but
wasn't sure if that was perhaps the taboo expression. In another
lifetime, I was in the public school system, and was more "aware". Now
I occasionally get caught using n-word equivalencies... Sorry!

It's not the "handicapped" that bothers me...people can be handicapped and I
don't subscribe to the pressure to use "politically correct" speech, what
offended me is the compartmentalizing of the handicapped child as a debit to
the system and your presumption that this debit ought to be leveled out by
abusing her sister out of egalitarian zeal.

As to the anecdote in question, you can't begin to imagine how the
hypocrisy of those parents ****ed me off.

There's nothing in the least bit hypocritical about what they did. Their
handicapped child is entitled to a public school education, according to
your own vociferous arguments, and the parents are perfectly entitled to
exercise that right. Her sister, however, is fortunate enough to get a
better, private education at her parents expense, who, by the way are *still
paying for her public school educational right!* Thus, while the bright
sister's private education reduces the burden on the public school system,
thus freeing up resources for other students, her parents are now, in
effect, paying DOUBLE for the handicapped sister's education. What on earth
is your complaint? It's not only no skin off your nose, it's actually
beneficial to the school system as a whole.

Your complaint sounds remarkably like sour grapes to me.

And for them to malign the
public system as they were in the process of diminishing it!

How did they "malign" the system? By wishing to give their gifted daughter
an education commensurate with her abilities? By exercising their
handicapped daughter's fundamental right to a public school education while
paying double what you pay for your child? Please enlighten us as to how
they "maligned" the system.

It stills
makes my blood boil! If I were king for a day, private schools would be
on the chopping block.

Why? Because YOU can't afford one for your own kids? You would bind gifted
children, or even ordinary children lucky enough to have wealthy parents to
academic slavery merely in order to assuage your own guilt and anger over
not being able to provide a premium education for your own children?

How unbelievably arrogant. How astonishingly selfish and petty.

[I might be persuaded that "choice" in education
*might* be a good thing through some sort of voucher system so long as
-- ditto the medicare program -- nobody could spend more than the
voucher amount. I'd have to think this one through.]

I think you ought to examine your motives first.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks to KMAN:
============
If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like
the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)
=============

You're right, none intended.

As I was writing, I occasionally was about to write "disabled" but
wasn't sure if that was perhaps the taboo expression. In another
lifetime, I was in the public school system, and was more "aware". Now
I occasionally get caught using n-word equivalencies... Sorry!

As to the anecdote in question, you can't begin to imagine how the
hypocrisy of those parents ****ed me off. And for them to malign the
public system as they were in the process of diminishing it! It stills
makes my blood boil! If I were king for a day, private schools would be
on the chopping block. [I might be persuaded that "choice" in education
*might* be a good thing through some sort of voucher system so long as
-- ditto the medicare program -- nobody could spend more than the
voucher amount. I'd have to think this one through.]

frtzw906

The challenge is to promote flexibility and excellence in education without
ending up with nothing but elite schools for the gifted/rich and slums for
everyone else.

Well, the free market, combined with stipends for the genuinely poor solves
that problem.

However, in the present system, if "slum schools" happen, the blame falls on
the government, not on the parents who put their children in private
schools...while usually simultaneously paying for a by-right public school
education for the same students.

The fact is that the more students who are moved to private schools, the
more money and resources available to those remaining in public schools.
What on earth could be wrong with that?

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

I didn't say the university made a profit, I said, quite specifically,
"there are profits to be made."

Universities are profit generators. That the university itself doesn't show
a profit is irrelevant, they are a huge part of the economy of most
communities, not just from wages and compensation for employees, but to the
community that serves the students and faculty. And then there are the
scientific discoveries that universities foster and patent. They, and the
public, share in the profits accruing from such things.

People support universities not simply because they provide advanced
knowledge, but because they are massive profit-generating engines for the
communities and the nation as a whole.

================

Man Scott, you're sounding more and more left-wing by the hour. Have you
finally started taking your meds? ;-)

Nope, I'm still as crazy as a fox. There is, and has always been a method to
my madness.

Free market economic reality is hardly left-wing.

You sound just a tad weaselly what with: 'I said, quite specifically,
"there are profits to be made.'"

Yes, I'm really good at that. It's one of my trademarks and techniques. It
helps weed out the illiterati and identify those truly interested in a
probative debate. It encourages people to pay close attention to what is
*actually* said, rather than what they may have *perceived*. The difference
is often substantial. When people start actually paying attention, the level
of the debate rises markedly, as we have seen. Still, there are the
bottom-dwellers who haven't the wit to participate at a higher level of
discourse who continue to try to drag the debate back down in the gutter.
Try to eschew these Netwits. I do like to bait them and watch them melt
down and make fools of themselves. But that's just for fun.

But, you are quite right in your assessment of the impact of
universities on their communities.

That's all I'm saying.

However, that still leaves us with
your initial assertion that med school respond to market demand for
doctors.

Sure they do. At least down here. Every business responds to market demands,
even universities.

The answer is still "Nope." They respond to "political" or government
demand for more admissions into med school.

They may do so *also,* but that's not the only motivator, by any stretch of
the imagination. And that model is not the one we use down here, though I
recognize that it may well be the case in Canada.

Simply because, from a
purely market perspective, there's "nothing" in it for the university to
invest in all that is involved in running a med school.

Don't be silly! There's billions of dollars in it for a vast array of people
and businesses.

Much cheaper to
open another 20 section in the MBA program.

MBAs don't buy MRI machines or surgical suites.

But "society" (read
government) recognizes that we sure as hell don't need more MBA's (or
lawyers), but we (USA and Canada) do need more nurses and doctors. So,
as per my previous post, the government mandates (recall that direct
line between the governor's mansion and the University president's
office -- via the Regents) that admissions to the med schools be increased.

Well, of course, in a socialist system that may be true, but down here,
neither the state nor federal government sets quotas for med school
admissions. They can't. They don't have that power. The Governor has never
so much as explicated such a demand.

In Canada, however, I can easily see how the central government would do
exactly that, of necessity, because potential med school students don't want
to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a medical school education that
they will never recover from a de facto government-controlled wage system.

So, the government has to mandate admissions, which the schools have to
accomplish by cutting the costs to the med students and by lowering
admission standards to draw from a larger potential pool, which inevitably
results in "bracket creep" and an inferior education through government
mandated "inclusiveness."

The Canadian way is the way of mediocrity and ambivalence, and you end up
with inferior doctors and nurses as a result.

This is all part of the non-private, not-for-profit part of the economy
(polity) that you like to deny and disparage.

Darned right I do! And for the very good reason that such systems don't
produce the finest doctors in the world, because there's no future economic
incentive for potential doctors to go through the grind. They'd just as soon
be MBAs and make more money in the stock market, which even Canada doesn't
try to control.

In response to this rejection by highly qualified MD candidates of an
inferior educational system that will provide an inferior profit potential
in the long run, the schools have to compromise their admission standard,
and their educational programs, to get *somebody,* anybody, through the
system to provide some sort of medical care to the polity.

But, it seems, from this post, you do GET IT! WELL DONE!

Thanks! When will you get it, I wonder?

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott queries:
================

Well done Scott! Good research. Your editorials, however, most often
missed the mark. I'll take these points up with you at a later date
(there's just WAY TOO MUCH you interpreted incorrectly!).

The question you should ask yourself is whether that "incorrect
interpretation" is deliberate or not.
============

Well the options that spring most immediately to mind are (a) yes, you
are deliberately misinterpreting so as to continue to cling to and
spread false information or (b) no, but you're not bright enough to be
able to understand what was written.

Are there other options?


Indeed. There's (c) as well. Can you figure out what it might be? I've given
you many clues.


=============
I'm not in the mood for guessing games.

Don't guess, mentate.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott claims:
============
It's just that I haven't seen a system which works better
than what we have in the US (including Colorado) anywhere in the world,
and
I've seen many that are much, much worse, including, notably, every
socialist state on earth.
============

WOW! You've "seen" every socialist state on earth?!


Don't pettifog.


Scott boasts:
===========
Hey, we've got a great system here, why shouldn't I use it as a
touchstone?
===============

One those issues on which we agree --sort of. You have a pretty good
system and it makes for a good touchstone. But, there's also plenty
wrong with it and, guess what, occasionally other nations have figured
out how to do things better.


Really? Name one.


We've been down this road before, so I won't spend too long on it, but
so far as "elections" are concerned, Canada, for example does a better
job -- no hanging chads,

"Hanging chads" are not a problem except as a vehicle for Democrats to try
to steal an election. If you're too stupid to punch a hole in a piece of
paper, you don't deserve to vote.

etc.

What do you mean by "etc.?"

AS far as "system" of government
(bicameral, judiciary, etc), Germany is a nation that has taken the
American model and improved on it.

No it hasn't. It may look that way, but it's not. Can you guess why?

Any number of nations do a better job
of educating their children... Need I go on?

Yes. Japan comes to mind as a nation you might deem to be superior. Of
course, lots more students in Japan commit suicide because of the intense
pressure of the schools, and many students fail completely because of the
excessively high standards for higher education, which is severely rationed
and doled out only to the best of the best, which means that the failures
end up digging ditches because they cannot get a college education...perhaps
because they choked on a single test in high school.

I debate whether they are doing a "better job" of educating their children
when a far higher proportion of them end up dead from the stress, and an
even larger proportion end up excluded from higher education entirely.

It all depends on how you view the overall situation.
--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott:
============
I don¹t recall either, but that's an easy one: Yes, but with some
reservations...


Good to see you coming over to the bright side GRIN

============

I'll bet we could explore plenty of issues in the realm of social
libertarianism and find common ground... waddya think? Do you fancy
yourself a social libertarian?


Not really. I do admire some libertarian principles, but not all, or even
most of them. They unfortunately mix in some really stupid ideas with some
very good ones. Libertarian dogma has one prime failu it presumes the
universal existence of something that is in fact pretty rare in human
behavior: altruism.

=============
I lean to libertarian views when it comes to "victimless crimes".

You need to be very careful in determining whether a crime is truly
"victimless" however. What may seem at first blush to be harmless is very
often quite harmful when looked at in broad context and intimate detail.

I find
that, as a society, we cause ourselves all sorts of headaches by trying
to impose "moral" values on everyone. Values that intrude into the
bedroom. Values that presume to know what people ought to (or not)
ingest. etc

Well, there are reasons for those imposed morals that have usually evolved
as a result of generations of ills and evils caused by libertine conduct and
a lack of moral training. Law is intimately connected to morality and has
always been. It's unavoidable that morality will be legislated, and it's
perfectly ethical for a society to do so in most cases.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott:
===========
The argument made in the various letters from the Health Ministers of
Canada
worrying that a two-tier system would cause problems because the
clinics
would "cherry pick" the easy cases while leaving the hard, expensive
cases
to the state is idiocy.



Allow me to paint with a broad brush to
make my point -- there are minor and trivial exceptions to what I'm
about to say. And the insurance you buy MUST be provided by a
Provincial Crown Coporation. You may not buy your BASIC coverage from
anyone else. Why? Because, if the corporation is to gain the benefits
that come from having this monopoly and is to be able to provide the
blanket, global coverage the corporation was set up to provide, then it
cannot afford to have private insurers cherry-pick the low-risk
clients, leaving the crown corp to pick up the difficult, expensive
clients. [BTW, the premiums compare quite favorably to other
jurisdictions across Canada that use the private model]


Correct. This is true of insurance plans that are allowed to exclude people
and are allowed to control risks by excluding (by price or otherwise) those
who pose higher risks to the actuarial pool.

However, this problem does not apply when *everyone* is in the pool, by law,
and when the premium payments are extracted equally from everyone by
taxation, not by individual premium payments for those who are "in the plan"
or based on their perceived position in the actuarial risk tables.

In this case, people who choose voluntarily NOT to take advantage of the
coverage by buying and paying for their own insurance *which is additional
to the mandatory government coverage, for which they have to pay anyway* do
nothing but BENEFIT the members of the pool by NOT extracting money from the
pool when they can, and choose to pay the bills themselves.

===============
Correct. And there is *no* prohibition to buying extra coverage, so long
as you buy the basic coverage. As you say, so long as you are in the
pool. By law you must be.
=================





Further, an anecdotal example of cherry-picking (that really ****es me
off): in the elementary school my daughters attended, there were two
sisters, one of whom was severely handicapped. The parents,
dissatisfied with the education their daughters were getting at this
school, took the daughter who was not handicapped, and sent her to a
very expensive private school. By doing so, they further diminished the
academic calibre of the school by taking a very bright girl out, and
leaving a handicapped one. This sort of cherry-picking diminishes our
ability to provide quality to everyone.


Hold on a second! You cannot compare the economic effects of insurance
cherry picking with some sort of "intellectual premium payment" that you
suggest a parent or child owes a school.

==================
Let me rephrase: what parents/citizens owe society.
==============


What you suggest is that
exceptional children must be "leveled out," or required to suffer an
educational environment that does not best exploit their learning abilities
merely in order to provide some kind of egalitarian "level playing field"
for other children.

=============
Interesting point. I have a "gifted" child and have made the
"educational environment that best exploits her learning abilities"
argument myself.

The argument I make is not an argument of egalitarian playing fields.
Rather, it is the argument that *if* all gifted, or even above-average
children, are taken out of the system, the quality of education becomes
a downward spiral. Cherry-picking leaves the public system impoverished,
leading, eventually, to more and more people leaving. Ultimately, the
only pupils left will be the children of the poor and any others who can
find no way out.
==============


What you suggest is akin to educational slavery. You suggest that a bright
child, who can benefit from a higher quality, more expensive education that
her parents can both afford and wish to give to her, ought to be forced into
an inferior (for her) school in order to benefit *other* children.

==============
In a simplistic sense, it is not to benefit *other* children but,
rather, to benefit the entire system.

I don't say "don't provide the gifted (or the disabled) the education
they require". I'm all in favor of providing "higher quality, more
expensive education". But, any system needs a certain critical mass of,
let's say, gifted students before special programs are established.
Every *rich*, gifted child who leaves the system reduces that critical
mass and thus reduces the quality of the whole.
===================



That's
just wrong. No parent, and no child, should be required to sacrifice
educational opportunities at the altar of socialist egalitarianism. Children
ought not to be made into sociopolitical pawns to salve what I intuit as
your bruised academic ego.

================
My bruised academic ego??

Explain please.
=================



As for the "handicapped" one, she has a RIGHT to that education, by your
own argument, and to suggest that her presence drags down the educational
environment for other children, which ought to be balanced out by forcing
her sister into academic slavery, is astonishingly uncaring and dismissive
of the fundamental value of each child, no matter how handicapped. I can't
believe you really mean this.

====================
You're mixing up way too many concepts. No matter how much programs for
gifted children (my daughter, for example) may cost, that cost pales in
comparison to the costs associated with educating disabled children. I
was appalled by the hypocrisy of the parents, "leaving" (I do use that
term advisedly) the "expensive" disabled child for the taxpayers to take
care of (I don't object) while taking the bright sister to the private
school (cherry-picking). Why not the other way around? Hypocrisy!

By their actions, it was the parents, not I who "suggested that the
disabled child's presence dragged down the educational environment for
other children (including the bright sister)" Thus, you'd have to
characterize them as "astonishingly uncaring and dismissive of the
fundamental value of each child...."

I might have applauded their actions if the roles of the sisters had
been reversed.
====================



I understand that you may not ascribe to that philosophy, but I do. If
one ascribes to that philosophy, then cherry-picking can not be
permitted.


What I see as implicit in your argument is that you believe that no one
should be allowed to excel or enjoy individual success above any other. This
is the essence of socialistic oppression, and it's why socialism always
fails.

===========
NO.

I do not believe that in the matter of education or health care, money
ought to be a determining factor.
============

frtzw906

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/1/05 11:12 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:


If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)

I agree. I see his statement as being poorly thought out and articulated,
not calculatedly insulting.


Now to your point, that is exactly what will happen. It's so obvious...poor
people and/or those more difficult to work with will be left behind. What is
the incentive of a profit-driven school to serve them? None.

The incentive is exactly the same as it is for any student: money.

So long as poor children are given a stipend by the government (collected
from society as a whole through taxation) to provide for schooling, they
will be just exactly as welcome as any other student.

Brilliant. And the motivation for rich people and people who don't have
children with disabilities to contribute to this is....?

Yes, some students will be able to afford better schooling, but so what? The
intent is to provide an adequate education, not a perfect education, for all
children. Some children will excel, some will be average, and some will
fail. All will have a reasonable and fair opportunity to get a basic
education. No more ought to be expected by anyone.

I believe that all children should have equality of opportunity through
equal access to education to the greatest extent possible.

Indeed, such a private system is more egalitarian than what exists now
because it *requires* those who have the means to pay for their children's
education to do so, thus taking the burden of educating those children off
of the public, leaving that much more money available for the truly needy.

That's a cute theory, but that's not how the world works. Those wealthier
people who can afford to pull their kids out of the public system are not
going to want to keep paying into the public system just to be kind those
who don't have the same resources they do.

Any number of nations do a better job
of educating their children... Need I go on?


Yes. Japan comes to mind as a nation you might deem to be superior. Of
course, lots more students in Japan commit suicide because of the intense
pressure of the schools, and many students fail completely because of the
excessively high standards for higher education, which is severely rationed
and doled out only to the best of the best, which means that the failures
end up digging ditches because they cannot get a college education...perhaps
because they choked on a single test in high school.

I debate whether they are doing a "better job" of educating their children
when a far higher proportion of them end up dead from the stress, and an
even larger proportion end up excluded from higher education entirely.

It all depends on how you view the overall situation.

=============
OK, let's look at the Westernworld: Finland. Canada.
============

frtzw906

I find
that, as a society, we cause ourselves all sorts of headaches by trying
to impose "moral" values on everyone. Values that intrude into the
bedroom. Values that presume to know what people ought to (or not)
ingest. etc


Well, there are reasons for those imposed morals that have usually evolved
as a result of generations of ills and evils caused by libertine conduct and
a lack of moral training. Law is intimately connected to morality and has
always been. It's unavoidable that morality will be legislated, and it's
perfectly ethical for a society to do so in most cases.


=============
And often anathema to me.
=============

frtzw906

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/1/05 11:23 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Thanks to KMAN:
============
If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like
the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)
=============

You're right, none intended.

As I was writing, I occasionally was about to write "disabled" but
wasn't sure if that was perhaps the taboo expression. In another
lifetime, I was in the public school system, and was more "aware". Now
I occasionally get caught using n-word equivalencies... Sorry!

It's not the "handicapped" that bothers me...people can be handicapped and I
don't subscribe to the pressure to use "politically correct" speech

It's not about being politically correct. My awakening on this issue comes
simply from listening to people with disabilities and understanding how the
rest of the world views them and how this impacts on the way they view
themselves. I don't know one person with a disability who wants to be
labelled as handicapped. Of course, they would prefer not to have any label
at all. But there are times when it is pragmatically necessary, in which
case, whatever the label, understanding that it is "a person with a
disability" not a "disabled person" makes a huge difference.

what
offended me is the compartmentalizing of the handicapped child as a debit to
the system and your presumption that this debit ought to be leveled out by
abusing her sister out of egalitarian zeal.

As to the anecdote in question, you can't begin to imagine how the
hypocrisy of those parents ****ed me off.

There's nothing in the least bit hypocritical about what they did. Their
handicapped child is entitled to a public school education, according to
your own vociferous arguments, and the parents are perfectly entitled to
exercise that right. Her sister, however, is fortunate enough to get a
better, private education at her parents expense, who, by the way are *still
paying for her public school educational right!* Thus, while the bright
sister's private education reduces the burden on the public school system,
thus freeing up resources for other students, her parents are now, in
effect, paying DOUBLE for the handicapped sister's education. What on earth
is your complaint? It's not only no skin off your nose, it's actually
beneficial to the school system as a whole.

Your complaint sounds remarkably like sour grapes to me.

Or you are being incredibly naïve and/or disingenuous.

The outcome of this will be the erosion of funds for the public school
system because support for paying the taxes to sustain public schools will
plummet.

The further outcome will be schools that are comprised entirely of the poor
and people with disabilities.

And for them to malign the
public system as they were in the process of diminishing it!

How did they "malign" the system? By wishing to give their gifted daughter
an education commensurate with her abilities? By exercising their
handicapped daughter's fundamental right to a public school education while
paying double what you pay for your child? Please enlighten us as to how
they "maligned" the system.

It stills
makes my blood boil! If I were king for a day, private schools would be
on the chopping block.

Why? Because YOU can't afford one for your own kids? You would bind gifted
children, or even ordinary children lucky enough to have wealthy parents to
academic slavery merely in order to assuage your own guilt and anger over
not being able to provide a premium education for your own children?

You are leaping to the faulty conclusion that a publicly funded school is
incapable of serving giften children appropriately.

How unbelievably arrogant. How astonishingly selfish and petty.

[I might be persuaded that "choice" in education
*might* be a good thing through some sort of voucher system so long as
-- ditto the medicare program -- nobody could spend more than the
voucher amount. I'd have to think this one through.]

I think you ought to examine your motives first.

Indeed.

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/1/05 11:26 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks to KMAN:
============
If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like
the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)
=============

You're right, none intended.

As I was writing, I occasionally was about to write "disabled" but
wasn't sure if that was perhaps the taboo expression. In another
lifetime, I was in the public school system, and was more "aware". Now
I occasionally get caught using n-word equivalencies... Sorry!

As to the anecdote in question, you can't begin to imagine how the
hypocrisy of those parents ****ed me off. And for them to malign the
public system as they were in the process of diminishing it! It stills
makes my blood boil! If I were king for a day, private schools would be
on the chopping block. [I might be persuaded that "choice" in education
*might* be a good thing through some sort of voucher system so long as
-- ditto the medicare program -- nobody could spend more than the
voucher amount. I'd have to think this one through.]

frtzw906

The challenge is to promote flexibility and excellence in education without
ending up with nothing but elite schools for the gifted/rich and slums for
everyone else.

Well, the free market, combined with stipends for the genuinely poor solves
that problem.

It won't work. The amount of the stipend is obviously going to have limits,
and the amount of taxes the free market payers are going to want to
contribute to those vouchers is going to be next to nothing.

However, in the present system, if "slum schools" happen, the blame falls on
the government, not on the parents who put their children in private
schools...while usually simultaneously paying for a by-right public school
education for the same students.

The fact is that the more students who are moved to private schools, the
more money and resources available to those remaining in public schools.
What on earth could be wrong with that?

What's wrong with that is it is total crap.

Scott Weiser wrote:


As for the "handicapped" one, she has a RIGHT to that education, by your
own argument, and to suggest that her presence drags down the educational
environment for other children, which ought to be balanced out by forcing
her sister into academic slavery, is astonishingly uncaring and dismissive
of the fundamental value of each child, no matter how handicapped. I can't
believe you really mean this.

=======================
I don't know whether you've ever been in an elementary classroom, but I
wonder, are you suggesting that disabled children, mainstreamed into
classrooms, do not impact on the educational environment of other children?

I maintain that my position is neither uncaring nor dismissive. Can you
demonstrate otherwise.

frtzw896
==================

On 1-Apr-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

(a) yes, you
are deliberately misinterpreting so as to continue to cling to and
spread false information

Actually, he's setting us up so that he can claim he isn't actually
spreading bull**** - he's just testing us. His way of avoiding
any responsibility for what he says.

Mike

On 1-Apr-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

Given your self-imposed blindness, we can all ignore what you call.

Mike

On 1-Apr-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Yes, I'm really good at that. It's one of my trademarks and techniques. It
helps weed out the illiterati and identify those truly interested in a
probative debate.

No it's your way of avoiding committing to what you believe. You have
always avoided the facts and making a committment. It is easier
to argue endlessly if you are vague.

Mike

Scott figures:
===========
It's not the "handicapped" that bothers me...people can be handicapped
and I don't subscribe to the pressure to use "politically correct"
speech, what
offended me is the compartmentalizing of the handicapped child as a
debit to the system and your presumption that this debit ought to be
leveled out by
abusing her sister out of egalitarian zeal.
=========

OK. in my anecdote, there was the need for brevity. To fully explain
the hypocrisy: here's the rest of the story.

The parents in question have a province-wide reputation as advocates
for the disabled. A cause celebre for them is school mainstreaming of
disabled pupils.

OK, so given their passion for this cause, they then remove their
bright daughter to an elite private school that does not admit pupils
with disabilities. As I recall, their "rationale" for doing so was that
there were too many ESL students in the public school their daughters
were attending. Surely, if "mainstreaming" is good for the goose, it
ought also to be good for the gander.

That's why it was hypocritical.

frtzw908

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

Scott Weiser wrote:
A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:


Scott:
===========
The argument made in the various letters from the Health Ministers of
Canada
worrying that a two-tier system would cause problems because the
clinics
would "cherry pick" the easy cases while leaving the hard, expensive
cases
to the state is idiocy.



Allow me to paint with a broad brush to
make my point -- there are minor and trivial exceptions to what I'm
about to say. And the insurance you buy MUST be provided by a
Provincial Crown Coporation. You may not buy your BASIC coverage from
anyone else. Why? Because, if the corporation is to gain the benefits
that come from having this monopoly and is to be able to provide the
blanket, global coverage the corporation was set up to provide, then it
cannot afford to have private insurers cherry-pick the low-risk
clients, leaving the crown corp to pick up the difficult, expensive
clients. [BTW, the premiums compare quite favorably to other
jurisdictions across Canada that use the private model]


Correct. This is true of insurance plans that are allowed to exclude people
and are allowed to control risks by excluding (by price or otherwise) those
who pose higher risks to the actuarial pool.

However, this problem does not apply when *everyone* is in the pool, by law,
and when the premium payments are extracted equally from everyone by
taxation, not by individual premium payments for those who are "in the plan"
or based on their perceived position in the actuarial risk tables.

In this case, people who choose voluntarily NOT to take advantage of the
coverage by buying and paying for their own insurance *which is additional
to the mandatory government coverage, for which they have to pay anyway* do
nothing but BENEFIT the members of the pool by NOT extracting money from the
pool when they can, and choose to pay the bills themselves.

===============
Correct. And there is *no* prohibition to buying extra coverage, so long
as you buy the basic coverage. As you say, so long as you are in the
pool. By law you must be.
=================

The problem, however, is that in Canada, your supplemental insurance *only*
covers extras and elective procedures that are not "medically necessary."
Supplemental insurance cannot cover what is covered by the national system,
nor can a person obtain care outside the national system for "medically
necessary" care by using either supplemental insurance or cash.

While it might be nice to have extra coverage so that you can have a
semi-private room or a TV, most people care more about getting timely access
to actual medical care when they need it, which their supplemental insurance
doesn't help them get at all.







Further, an anecdotal example of cherry-picking (that really ****es me
off): in the elementary school my daughters attended, there were two
sisters, one of whom was severely handicapped. The parents,
dissatisfied with the education their daughters were getting at this
school, took the daughter who was not handicapped, and sent her to a
very expensive private school. By doing so, they further diminished the
academic calibre of the school by taking a very bright girl out, and
leaving a handicapped one. This sort of cherry-picking diminishes our
ability to provide quality to everyone.


Hold on a second! You cannot compare the economic effects of insurance
cherry picking with some sort of "intellectual premium payment" that you
suggest a parent or child owes a school.

==================
Let me rephrase: what parents/citizens owe society.
==============

At the expense of their children's educational opportunities? No way. You're
still making pawns of the children. As for the parents, they STILL pay into
the public system for the child that doesn't even attend the public school,
so how are they damaging anything?




What you suggest is that
exceptional children must be "leveled out," or required to suffer an
educational environment that does not best exploit their learning abilities
merely in order to provide some kind of egalitarian "level playing field"
for other children.

=============
Interesting point. I have a "gifted" child and have made the
"educational environment that best exploits her learning abilities"
argument myself.

The argument I make is not an argument of egalitarian playing fields.
Rather, it is the argument that *if* all gifted, or even above-average
children, are taken out of the system, the quality of education becomes
a downward spiral.

How so? If the funding remains the same, I'd say that the quality of
educational opportunities for the poor and less-gifted children actually
increase because there are not as many children in the system, so more can
be spent enhancing the educations of those that remain.

Cherry-picking leaves the public system impoverished,

No, it doesn't. That only happens with voucher systems where the money a
gifted child is entitled to for public school follows the child to the
private school. I can't imagine Canada having such a system, since even in
the US, voucher plans have been mercilessly hammered into extinction by the
secularists because much private schooling is done at religious schools, and
the secularists claim that the public money can't be given to a religious
school because of the "wall of separation" doctrine.

So long as parents who place their children in private school still have to
pay their public school taxes, there is no "impoverishment." In fact, it's a
net benefit to the schools.

leading, eventually, to more and more people leaving. Ultimately, the
only pupils left will be the children of the poor and any others who can
find no way out.

So what? What you're suggesting is that because private schools are
"classist" that students in public schools are somehow inferior if the
upper-crust students are absent. I don't buy that argument at all.

Besides, there will be plenty of money to educate them, way more than there
was before, so they will have the chance to get every bit as good a public
school education as a private student will. Unless, of course, you are
tacitly admitting that public schools are inefficient, wasteful and
ineffective at educating children no matter how much money is thrown at
them. Is that what you're saying?

==============


What you suggest is akin to educational slavery. You suggest that a bright
child, who can benefit from a higher quality, more expensive education that
her parents can both afford and wish to give to her, ought to be forced into
an inferior (for her) school in order to benefit *other* children.

==============
In a simplistic sense, it is not to benefit *other* children but,
rather, to benefit the entire system.

Would not the system benefit from having fewer students with the same amount
of money being provided as before? I'd say so.


I don't say "don't provide the gifted (or the disabled) the education
they require". I'm all in favor of providing "higher quality, more
expensive education". But, any system needs a certain critical mass of,
let's say, gifted students before special programs are established.
Every *rich*, gifted child who leaves the system reduces that critical
mass and thus reduces the quality of the whole.

Once again, you're implying that it is the presence of these "gifted
children" that somehow make the educational experience for all students
better. Upon what evidence do you base this assertion?

Isn't that making pawns of gifted students? Isn't that denying them their
right to succeed and get the very best education their parents can afford
for them merely in order to make them leavening for the less fortunate?

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. No child should be bound to a school
because someone thinks that they are needed to be part of some vacuous
"intellectual critical mass."

===================



That's
just wrong. No parent, and no child, should be required to sacrifice
educational opportunities at the altar of socialist egalitarianism. Children
ought not to be made into sociopolitical pawns to salve what I intuit as
your bruised academic ego.

================
My bruised academic ego??

Explain please.
=================

You evidence a rather impressive degree of dudgeon and ire over the fact
that some parents decided to give their gifted daughter a better education.
Why would you care? Why is it any business of yours at all where they send
their children? The only conclusion I can come to is that you are angry
because their child is getting a better education than yours. Or, you're
just ranting socialistically because you politically and philosophically
can't stand it when someone drags themselves out of the mire of mediocrity
and rises above the Proletariat.

Can you illuminate us as to why you feel so much anger about this that would
refute these observations?




As for the "handicapped" one, she has a RIGHT to that education, by your
own argument, and to suggest that her presence drags down the educational
environment for other children, which ought to be balanced out by forcing
her sister into academic slavery, is astonishingly uncaring and dismissive
of the fundamental value of each child, no matter how handicapped. I can't
believe you really mean this.

====================
You're mixing up way too many concepts. No matter how much programs for
gifted children (my daughter, for example) may cost, that cost pales in
comparison to the costs associated with educating disabled children.

So what? She's *entitled* to that education, by your own laws.

I was appalled by the hypocrisy of the parents, "leaving" (I do use that
term advisedly) the "expensive" disabled child for the taxpayers to take
care of (I don't object) while taking the bright sister to the private
school (cherry-picking). Why not the other way around? Hypocrisy!

It's not hypocrisy, it's common sense. Both their children are entitled to a
public education. In your system (as in ours) disabilities are not the basis
for discrimination in education, even when educating a disabled child takes
much more money. The parents are simply exercising their legal right to have
the state pay for their disabled daughter's education. Don't blame them,
they didn't write the laws, they are merely taking advantage of the laws
others imposed upon them. They pay the required amount towards public
education, and the fact that they have a special-needs student is
irrelevant. Even bringing it up smacks of bigotry and anti-disabled
discrimination. If the parents had left *both* children in public school,
would you be carping about having to pay more for the disabled one?

No, I think not.

What chaps your butt is that they decided to continue to take advantage of
the system and let the public school system educate their disabled daughter,
as the system is required to do regardless of her capabilities, while at the
same time spending their own hard-earned money to give their gifted daughter
a leg up in the world by sending her to private school while *still paying*
for her public school education...a portion of which can now be used to help
their other daughter. They're doing the system a big favor by taking on the
burden of a private school education for a child they've removed from the
system.

It's clear that you think they ought to have taken their disabled daughter
out and paid for her special needs themselves, but why should they? They pay
into the system, and it just so happens that they have a daughter who
consumes more educational resources than you do. So what? Big deal. That's
life. Get over it. You're paying for *many* disabled children, that just
comes with the territory.

By their actions, it was the parents, not I who "suggested that the
disabled child's presence dragged down the educational environment for
other children (including the bright sister)" Thus, you'd have to
characterize them as "astonishingly uncaring and dismissive of the
fundamental value of each child...."

I don't think they suggested anything. I think they exercised their right to
have one daughter educated by the public system while providing themselves
for a better education for the other. I don't think that they think that
their daughter's presence in the public schools "drags down" anything, and I
find it insulting to the disabled that you seem to think exactly that. This
reveals some character issues, attitudes and perceptions about the value you
place on the disabled that you might want to ruminate upon.

I might have applauded their actions if the roles of the sisters had
been reversed.
====================

Sounds like sour grapes to me. I suspect they realized that a public school
education was adequate for their disabled daughter's future and that they
needed to take the opportunity they had to give their gifted daughter the
best chance for success they could.




I understand that you may not ascribe to that philosophy, but I do. If
one ascribes to that philosophy, then cherry-picking can not be
permitted.


What I see as implicit in your argument is that you believe that no one
should be allowed to excel or enjoy individual success above any other. This
is the essence of socialistic oppression, and it's why socialism always
fails.

===========
NO.

I do not believe that in the matter of education or health care, money
ought to be a determining factor.
============

You seem to argue the opposite as regards the disabled child. You seem to be
very upset that the additional costs associated with educating her are being
imposed on the public while the parents obviously have the means to educate
her privately at their own expense. The clear implication of your arguments
is that you *do* believe that money ought to be a determinative factor: If
the parents have money, they should be *required* to take their children out
of the public system, particularly if the particular child is a
high-maintenance disabled child.

Unfortunately, you are ignoring the fact that the public is *obligated* to
provide those extra funds, no matter what the other sister does. You need to
consider the children, and their interests, as individuals, not your own
interests or your own judgmental attitudes about who is and who is not
deserving of an education funded by the public. I see a large degree of
hypocrisy in your statements.

And while you argue that money should not be a "determining factor," you
seem to evade the issue I brought up earlier regarding the Canada Health
system that not only makes it a system which does not discriminate based on
an *inability* to pay, but makes it a system that *does* discriminate based
on *ability* to pay.

Do you likewise believe that people should not be allowed to take advantage
of a "second-tier" educational system if they can afford to pay for it?
--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/1/05 11:12 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:


If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)

I agree. I see his statement as being poorly thought out and articulated,
not calculatedly insulting.


Now to your point, that is exactly what will happen. It's so obvious...poor
people and/or those more difficult to work with will be left behind. What is
the incentive of a profit-driven school to serve them? None.

The incentive is exactly the same as it is for any student: money.

So long as poor children are given a stipend by the government (collected
from society as a whole through taxation) to provide for schooling, they
will be just exactly as welcome as any other student.

Brilliant. And the motivation for rich people and people who don't have
children with disabilities to contribute to this is....?

The tax man comes and takes away their Benz, of course. I've said many times
that taxation for public education of the needy is appropriate.


Yes, some students will be able to afford better schooling, but so what? The
intent is to provide an adequate education, not a perfect education, for all
children. Some children will excel, some will be average, and some will
fail. All will have a reasonable and fair opportunity to get a basic
education. No more ought to be expected by anyone.

I believe that all children should have equality of opportunity through
equal access to education to the greatest extent possible.

So, you believe that children who have the means to get a better education
than the public system provides should be denied that opportunity because
for them to seize that opportunity is discriminatory against poorer
children?

Indeed, such a private system is more egalitarian than what exists now
because it *requires* those who have the means to pay for their children's
education to do so, thus taking the burden of educating those children off
of the public, leaving that much more money available for the truly needy.

That's a cute theory, but that's not how the world works. Those wealthier
people who can afford to pull their kids out of the public system are not
going to want to keep paying into the public system just to be kind those
who don't have the same resources they do.

Then don't give them that option. Make them pay income taxes or better yet
consumer goods sales taxes just like everybody else and use part of the
revenue to fund public education. They can carp all they like, but they
still have to pay.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:



Any number of nations do a better job
of educating their children... Need I go on?


Yes. Japan comes to mind as a nation you might deem to be superior. Of
course, lots more students in Japan commit suicide because of the intense
pressure of the schools, and many students fail completely because of the
excessively high standards for higher education, which is severely rationed
and doled out only to the best of the best, which means that the failures
end up digging ditches because they cannot get a college education...perhaps
because they choked on a single test in high school.

I debate whether they are doing a "better job" of educating their children
when a far higher proportion of them end up dead from the stress, and an
even larger proportion end up excluded from higher education entirely.

It all depends on how you view the overall situation.

=============
OK, let's look at the Westernworld: Finland. Canada.
============

Both socialist states. Socialism = bad.


--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:



I find
that, as a society, we cause ourselves all sorts of headaches by trying
to impose "moral" values on everyone. Values that intrude into the
bedroom. Values that presume to know what people ought to (or not)
ingest. etc


Well, there are reasons for those imposed morals that have usually evolved
as a result of generations of ills and evils caused by libertine conduct and
a lack of moral training. Law is intimately connected to morality and has
always been. It's unavoidable that morality will be legislated, and it's
perfectly ethical for a society to do so in most cases.


=============
And often anathema to me.
=============

What makes you think that your opinions are either important or
determinative?
--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/1/05 11:23 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Thanks to KMAN:
============
If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like
the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)
=============

You're right, none intended.

As I was writing, I occasionally was about to write "disabled" but
wasn't sure if that was perhaps the taboo expression. In another
lifetime, I was in the public school system, and was more "aware". Now
I occasionally get caught using n-word equivalencies... Sorry!

It's not the "handicapped" that bothers me...people can be handicapped and I
don't subscribe to the pressure to use "politically correct" speech

It's not about being politically correct. My awakening on this issue comes
simply from listening to people with disabilities and understanding how the
rest of the world views them and how this impacts on the way they view
themselves. I don't know one person with a disability who wants to be
labelled as handicapped. Of course, they would prefer not to have any label
at all. But there are times when it is pragmatically necessary, in which
case, whatever the label, understanding that it is "a person with a
disability" not a "disabled person" makes a huge difference.

It's semantic politically-correct pettifoggery. Disabled people are
disabled. It's just a fact of life. They are handicapped. They have a
"disadvantage that makes achievement unusually difficult." It's only a
pejorative term if one uses it in a pejorative context. Otherwise it's
simply a statement of fact couched in a way that is, if anything, supportive
of their disadvantage and it recognizes the fundamental strength of
character that's implicit in their successes.

Unless one is using it in a pejorative context, saying "That man is black"
or "That woman is Asian" or "That child is Indian" or "That person is
handicapped" is simply a statement of observed reality and ought not be
cause for all this histrionic gum-flapping.

Engaging in politically corrrect sophistry doesn't help anybody, it just
masks the *real* problem, which is that many people consider the handicapped
(or disabled, or "person with a disability") as somehow inferior to others.

That's not the case. They are not inferior, they are not superior, they are
equal in every way but one: they have a disadvantage that makes achievement
unusually difficult. Lots of people have such disadvantages. Blacks.
Indians. The poor. So what? Big deal. Denying that they are disadvantaged
doesn't help them overcome the disadvantage and help them towards
achievement, it merely silences the debate because people are too afraid of
being politically incorrect to take ownership of the problems the
disabled/handicapped face in life that each person can help to resolve.

Getting all het-up about calling someone "handicapped" is just a way of
avoiding the issue entirely. It makes it easy to say "hey, he's not
handicapped and he doesn't need my help" and go on about your life with nary
a thought to how you could ease the burden.

It also allows people to ignore the issues entirely by claiming that they
don't want to be seen as being insensitive or discriminatory by noticing
someone's disability, so they just *ignore the person entirely.*

If you don't think this is the case, spend a week in a wheelchair sometime.
You become positively invisible.

Sorry, but I believe in telling it like it is and facing things directly,
not finding semantic refuges and dodges that allow me to avoid the issues.


what
offended me is the compartmentalizing of the handicapped child as a debit to
the system and your presumption that this debit ought to be leveled out by
abusing her sister out of egalitarian zeal.

As to the anecdote in question, you can't begin to imagine how the
hypocrisy of those parents ****ed me off.

There's nothing in the least bit hypocritical about what they did. Their
handicapped child is entitled to a public school education, according to
your own vociferous arguments, and the parents are perfectly entitled to
exercise that right. Her sister, however, is fortunate enough to get a
better, private education at her parents expense, who, by the way are *still
paying for her public school educational right!* Thus, while the bright
sister's private education reduces the burden on the public school system,
thus freeing up resources for other students, her parents are now, in
effect, paying DOUBLE for the handicapped sister's education. What on earth
is your complaint? It's not only no skin off your nose, it's actually
beneficial to the school system as a whole.

Your complaint sounds remarkably like sour grapes to me.

Or you are being incredibly naïve and/or disingenuous.

The outcome of this will be the erosion of funds for the public school
system because support for paying the taxes to sustain public schools will
plummet.

Only if you let it happen. And if it does, what does that tell you about the
value of a public school education?

Moreover, it won't happen because if it was going to happen, it would have
*already happened.* But it's not happening, is it? People still pay taxes
for public schools, and many of them put their kids in private schools
anyway. No big disaster looming. Never has been.


The further outcome will be schools that are comprised entirely of the poor
and people with disabilities.

So what? So long as they are receiving a top-notch education funded by the
public, which can afford to provide far more resources to each public school
child than they could before, when children who had the means to get a
private education were forced into the public system, thus clogging it up,
who cares? Think of it as a way of providing much better, specialized
education for those students.


And for them to malign the
public system as they were in the process of diminishing it!

How did they "malign" the system? By wishing to give their gifted daughter
an education commensurate with her abilities? By exercising their
handicapped daughter's fundamental right to a public school education while
paying double what you pay for your child? Please enlighten us as to how
they "maligned" the system.

It stills
makes my blood boil! If I were king for a day, private schools would be
on the chopping block.

Why? Because YOU can't afford one for your own kids? You would bind gifted
children, or even ordinary children lucky enough to have wealthy parents to
academic slavery merely in order to assuage your own guilt and anger over
not being able to provide a premium education for your own children?

You are leaping to the faulty conclusion that a publicly funded school is
incapable of serving giften children appropriately.

It's hardly a faulty conclusion. Every study ever done shows that private
school educations are far superior, particularly when it comes to
individualized instruction for the gifted, than public schools.

It's a simple fact that public schools, by their nature, have to provide a
uniform curriculum to every student because there is always insufficient
money, resources and teachers to provide individualized instruction for
gifted students. Even in the best public systems, which provide special
"charter schools" and special schools for the gifted, the quality of
education is far inferior to a private school education targeted at an
individual student.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/1/05 11:26 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks to KMAN:
============
If I may, for many a person with a disability, "handicapped" is like
the
n-word to many a person with black skin. I realize no offense likely
intended frtzw906 :-)
=============

You're right, none intended.

As I was writing, I occasionally was about to write "disabled" but
wasn't sure if that was perhaps the taboo expression. In another
lifetime, I was in the public school system, and was more "aware". Now
I occasionally get caught using n-word equivalencies... Sorry!

As to the anecdote in question, you can't begin to imagine how the
hypocrisy of those parents ****ed me off. And for them to malign the
public system as they were in the process of diminishing it! It stills
makes my blood boil! If I were king for a day, private schools would be
on the chopping block. [I might be persuaded that "choice" in education
*might* be a good thing through some sort of voucher system so long as
-- ditto the medicare program -- nobody could spend more than the
voucher amount. I'd have to think this one through.]

frtzw906

The challenge is to promote flexibility and excellence in education without
ending up with nothing but elite schools for the gifted/rich and slums for
everyone else.

Well, the free market, combined with stipends for the genuinely poor solves
that problem.

It won't work. The amount of the stipend is obviously going to have limits,
and the amount of taxes the free market payers are going to want to
contribute to those vouchers is going to be next to nothing.

Not unless society as a whole decides to abandon the poor, which is
unlikely. If they were going to do so, they would have done so by now. You
imply that contributing to public school education is optional or voluntary.
I never suggested any such thing. I suggest that the stipend be based on
need, and that it come from taxes that are levied equally on all, to reduce
the burden to any individual as much as possible. Even the selfish rich
would be unlikely to complain about a few dollars, or even a few hundred
dollars in additional sales taxes paid to fund public schools.


However, in the present system, if "slum schools" happen, the blame falls on
the government, not on the parents who put their children in private
schools...while usually simultaneously paying for a by-right public school
education for the same students.

The fact is that the more students who are moved to private schools, the
more money and resources available to those remaining in public schools.
What on earth could be wrong with that?

What's wrong with that is it is total crap.

You don't know that. You merely assume it because you have no faith that the
people will be willing to tax themselves to achieve it. Problem is, they
ALREADY ARE. If they can get a better education for their children, while
providing a better education for poor children for the same amount, or less,
than they are now paying for a public school education, why wouldn't they?

The only real difference in the money stream is that the money goes with the
child, not to the district. In this way, the educational system has
something to compete for, which always results in a better product.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

Scott Weiser wrote:


As for the "handicapped" one, she has a RIGHT to that education, by your
own argument, and to suggest that her presence drags down the educational
environment for other children, which ought to be balanced out by forcing
her sister into academic slavery, is astonishingly uncaring and dismissive
of the fundamental value of each child, no matter how handicapped. I can't
believe you really mean this.

=======================
I don't know whether you've ever been in an elementary classroom, but I
wonder, are you suggesting that disabled children, mainstreamed into
classrooms, do not impact on the educational environment of other children?

Are you saying that they do? How undiverse of you. How dare you buck the
politically-correct dogma and suggest that disabled children
are...well...disabled. Shame on you.

I maintain that my position is neither uncaring nor dismissive. Can you
demonstrate otherwise.

What's uncaring and dismissive is your implicit suggestion that the gifted
child has some duty to accept an education inferior to what she might be
able to obtain in the interests of egalitarian pain-sharing.

The disable child is not to be discriminated against because she's disabled,
nor is the gifted child to be discriminated against because she's gifted by
being made into an intellectual prop for others.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself Michael Daly wrote:


On 1-Apr-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

Given your self-imposed blindness, we can all ignore what you call.

Self-evidently, you cannot.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Scott figures:
===========
It's not the "handicapped" that bothers me...people can be handicapped
and I don't subscribe to the pressure to use "politically correct"
speech, what
offended me is the compartmentalizing of the handicapped child as a
debit to the system and your presumption that this debit ought to be
leveled out by
abusing her sister out of egalitarian zeal.
=========

OK. in my anecdote, there was the need for brevity. To fully explain
the hypocrisy: here's the rest of the story.

The parents in question have a province-wide reputation as advocates
for the disabled. A cause celebre for them is school mainstreaming of
disabled pupils.

OK, so given their passion for this cause, they then remove their
bright daughter to an elite private school that does not admit pupils
with disabilities.

Um, is this true? I find that extremely hard to believe, particularly in
Canada, because even here in the USA, it's illegal to discriminate on the
basis of physical disability. I sort of imagined it as being a hanging
offense in Canada.

As I recall, their "rationale" for doing so was that
there were too many ESL students in the public school their daughters
were attending.

"ESL" meaning "handicapped" I presume?

Surely, if "mainstreaming" is good for the goose, it
ought also to be good for the gander.

That's why it was hypocritical.

Hm. Well, given what you say, I'd say they were being perfectly consistent
with their beliefs and advocacy. They are "mainstreaming" their disabled
daughter, just as they argue ought to be done. Clearly they *could* provide
the very best individual, specialized care and education for their disabled
child, but choose instead to keep her in public school in order to "walk the
walk" and demonstrate that disabled children can be "mainstreamed." I laud
them for standing by their principles.

On the other hand, their gifted daughter evidently needs a more
intellectually stimulating environment to reach her full potential, so they
decided not to stint on her education by keeping her in private school.

I see no hypocrisy at all. I see rational judgment and a concern both for
their children and other disabled children, because they evidently genuinely
feel that the public school environment provides a SUPERIOR educational AND
SOCIAL environment for their disabled daughter. I happen to agree with them.

Putting disabled children in "special ed" programs, even very good ones,
isolates them from society and from their peers, and it leaves them in the
lurch when it comes to the necessary socialization skills they can only
learn when interacting with other non-disabled children. "Mainstreaming" is
specifically intended to get disabled children out of isolation and get them
involved in the community and society, where they can both learn to cope
with their disabilities in the real world as well as learn to make friends
and dispel prejudices and preconceptions that are often part and parcel of
"normal" childhood experience when "normal" children are isolated from the
disabled. Anything that leads towards the understanding that the disabled
are not "freaks" of some kind is good, and I applaud these parents for
sticking with it.

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization, and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has
a disabled sister.
--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Scott objects:
============
OK, let's look at the Westernworld: Finland. Canada.
============

Both socialist states. Socialism = bad.
=================

Irrelevant (even though I don't accept your assertion) as we were
talking about quality of education or educational outcomes ("Any number
of nations do a better job of educating their children"): Canada and
Finland leave the USA in the dust.

As do a host of other nations. Depending on what's being measured,
anywhere from 12 to 20 nations have better outcomes.

frtzw906

Scott maintains:
================
It's hardly a faulty conclusion. Every study ever done shows that
private
school educations are far superior, particularly when it comes to
individualized instruction for the gifted, than public schools.
==========

Hey, you've quoted the Fraser Institute before. Why not look at their
report on education in BC (I'm not a huge fan but look anyway). While
you'll find many private schools at the top of the list (please review
their entrance requirements -- top being a Catholic girls school with
very stringent entrance requirements), you'll also find quite a few
public schools in the top 20.

You say "Even in the best public systems, which provide special
"charter schools" and special schools for the gifted, the quality of
education is far inferior to a private school education targeted at an
individual student. "

This report will show that you're wrong.

Then we should talk about those public schools; what's "special" about
them?

frtzw906

Scott asks of my libertarian views on social issues:
===================
What makes you think that your opinions are either important or
determinative?
=============

The fact that I'm a voter and will almost always prefer the candidate
with similar views makes my opinion important. Or did you think my vote
doesn't count?

frtzw906

Scott wonders:
===========
Um, is this true? I find that extremely hard to believe, particularly
in
Canada, because even here in the USA, it's illegal to discriminate on
the
basis of physical disability. I sort of imagined it as being a hanging
offense in Canada.
==============

Well, Scott, you've admonished others more than once for not reading
carefully. Now I get to return the favor. At no point did I indicate
that the girl in question was "physically" disabled. She was, but
that's wasn't the issue. She was also severely mentally disabled. As
such, she would have been denied entrance to the private school on
academic grounds.

Scott asks:
==============
"ESL" meaning "handicapped" I presume?
===========

Not in my opinion. But the parents in this anecdote clearly felt that
the ESL numbers in the school constituted a "debit" (to use your
terminology) insofar as the overall learning environment in the
school/classroom was concerned. Interestingly, several of the ESL
students from Korea and China were the top students in math/arithmetic
and music.


Scotts asserts:
================
I see rational judgment and a concern both for their children and other
disabled children, because they evidently genuinely feel that the
public school environment provides a SUPERIOR educational AND SOCIAL
environment for their disabled daughter. I happen to agree with them.
============

Yet somehow you are unable to see that by taking their brighter
daughter (not gifted, just bright) out of the public school, they
diminished the very environment they felt it was important for their
disabled daughter to be exposed to.

Sorry, that's hypocritical.


Scott, again displaying uncharacteristic, left-wing, concern for the
societal underdog, argues:
==================
"Mainstreaming" is specifically intended to get disabled children out
of isolation and get them involved in the community and society, where
they can both learn to cope with their disabilities in the real world
as well as learn to make friends
and dispel prejudices and preconceptions that are often part and parcel
of
"normal" childhood experience when "normal" children are isolated from
the
disabled.
==============

Yes.

And mainstreaming also places an undue and, at times, unfair burden on
teachers and classmates. If a "non-disabled" child were to exhibit
behaviors shown by many of the disabled children, they would be
immediately removed from the classroom and, eventualy expelled from the
school.

As a teacher-school-society we need to find accommodation for pupils of
all capabilities. However, it is an axiom of teaching that, if a pupil
consistently undermines the learning environment of the majority of
pupils, then that pupil must be removed. In the case of the disabled
child in the anecdote (and many, many others), the learning environment
was compromised by loud, random, unintelligible utterances that bore no
relationship to the matter being taught. This was complemented by
random physical outbursts of the child rattling her wheelchair and
otherwise thrashing about.

There can be no doubt that, notwithstanding the positive attributes of
mainstreaming, there are many "debits" (your word) that can be
attributed to it. So, back to the parents in question: of course it is
hypocritical to expect others' children to try to learn in an
environment compromised by their disabled daughter's outbursts while
taking their brighter daughter to a private school simply because they
have the money to be able to do so. Sheer hypocrisy!

frtzw906

KMAN being ever-so clever:



"Both socialist states. Socialism = bad"
-- Scott "I Wish I Was" Weiser


But why do I have this feeling that people have had similar fun with
that surname before...?

frtzw906

KMAN in making the case that an exodus of "wealthy" families from the
public school system will eventually leave it impoverished:


There will be less and less money. It will become like your
plan for health care for the poor...unless a charity provides it, there
won't be any.

Absolutely correct.


frzw906