On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:05:26 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

I guess I won't completely give up on the idea of getting a boat but
it is getting pretty frustrating.

And you shouldn't.

After reading the your last post, I'd suggest that you first find what
you want in a boat, how much you can tow, cost, etc. That will
determine what your engine choice is going to be anyway.

In any case, don't get discouraged. I've settled on what makes me
happy, Tony has done the same as have a lot of contributors here.
Your eventual choice is not going to be a bad one - it will be yours
and that counts for a lot.

Trust me on that.

Later,

Tom

K. Smith wrote:

snip

Mercury are so scared of DFI they're spending huge amounts on belatedly
changing over to 4 strokes & again ALL boating consumers will pay in the
end. NB Merc have now claimed dumping protection against Yamaha, which
means this season the price of OBs will go up yet again.


snip

Mercury has a line of optimax motors going to 250 HP, yet spends a great
deal of money, more than 100 million usd I think I have seen reported,
developing a line of 4 strokes, with the first models being 275 and 250
hp. It is indeed interesting to speculate why they would do such a
thing, and until Karen's post I really hadn't considered it.

Some possible reasons.... deciding validity is up to the individual. It
is possible that.....

1. Optimax is not competitive with 4 strokes due to poor reliability or
performance.

2. Optimax is more expensive to manufacture in the long run

3. Customers will migrate to 4 strokes and no longer buy two strokes for
whatever reason.

4. Optimax will be unable to meet emission requirements at some time in
the future.

5. Optimax is not suitable for motors above 250 hp, at least in some
applications.

6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.

These are my quickly thought up hypothetical reasons. Some might even
be true

del cecchi

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:13:59 -0600, Del Cecchi
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.

Anybody want to wager that in the next couple of months - maybe six at
the most - Verado problems with the D/A interface and their fly by
wire control system will surpass OMCs FICHT problems?

Later,

Tom

In article ,
HarryKrause wrote:



From the first announcement, Mercury positioned Optis as a bridge,
nothing more.

This is totally wrong. Mercury's strategy initially was
to use four-stroke motors for low horsepower and to
use OptiMax two-stroke motors for higher horsepower.
This was made clear and public knowledge at the
USITC hearings.

When Mercury saw the overwhelming public adoption
of four-stroke motors, they quickly changed their
game plan and began development of high horsepower
four stroke outboards, now available as the Verado
engines.

Coincident with this change in strategy was also
a change in senior management of both Brunswick
and Mercury. The two are probably related.

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:41:29 -0500, James Hebert
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

When Mercury saw the overwhelming public adoption
of four-stroke motors, they quickly changed their
game plan and began development of high horsepower
four stroke outboards, now available as the Verado
engines.

From what I've been hearing, the Verados are major league gas hogs -
as in 26/30 GPH average. And their control systems are suspect -
shutting down with unexplained engine error codes. It appears to be
pandemic and not just associated with the D/A convertor on retrofitted
boats.

Very interesting.

I'm telling you guys - two stroke is the way to go. :)

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:13:59 -0600, Del Cecchi
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~


6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.


Anybody want to wager that in the next couple of months - maybe six at
the most - Verado problems with the D/A interface and their fly by
wire control system will surpass OMCs FICHT problems?

Later,

Tom

I don't want to actually bet anything Tom:-) Life itself is a big
enough gamble for me:-) but I'm happy to pretend:-) "yeah my bucko, well
I'll bet ya" the 4 strokes in general will be OK from a technology stand
point.

The Verado is a bit interesting, at least to us anyway, given that they
could have easily & it seems cheaply turned to the alloy GM straight 6
which easily puts out 250+ HP in it's 4 ltr form, no supercharger none
of that. For whatever reason Merc have chosen to go their own way in the
core engine, block etc, to drastically reduce the displacement then make
the HP back up with a supercharger, curious approach we say.
Particularly given the longstanding, hugely successful relationship
between Merc & GM but............. as I said the real technology is all
well known & well tested stuff from the rough & tumble of consumer GM cars.

I think the Verados are now down to a 4 cyl 135HP???? (not sure) if so
then the same "family" style of design might have something to do with
their plans. So now the range is almost completely covered with 4 strokes???

The high revving, multi valve, variable cam timing part is all GM & the
supercharging is also well proven straight GM technology.

The electronics are also pretty tame; these days the GM engines come
almost stand alone, the engine management box & just about all else
needed to run is on the engine itself, not buried off in the cabin
somewhere or a separate box; so that will work.

The fly by wire throttle etc??? GM have had a problem with their
throttle bodies for some time now, they've used an electronically,
direct from the engine management box, operated air bypass for idle
speed control & it's been "problematic", so the fly by wire throttle
control is just more of the same & maybe an attempt to resolve the known
issues with the bypass system??? It's in the cars too of course.

What is for sure is that by going their own way with the core engine,
it's cost Brunswick/Merc a bundle & they're trying to get the price of
all OBs in general up to cover it.

Ficht, Optimax & E-Tec are all dead (E-Tec still born:-)), you can't
run engines at power when lean, a well known & understood fact since the
30s, it's just basic rocket science, the very same problem. So I accept
you don't believe me but do you believe nasa???

Add into all three very poor atomisation from not enough injection
pressure & it's worse.

Then with Ficht & E-Tec add inaccurate loony tunes continuous spark
ignition when in lean mode & it's hopeless.

Then with Ficht & E-Tec add the most dangerous oiling system since VRO
& consumer usage failures are assured.

If the lean mixtures at power don't get 'em, the poor fuel atomisation,
inaccurate spark timing or lack of proper lubrication will.

K

Been busy today so I'll keep the Krause lie of the day short.

This lying simpleton, after it became clear he was losing a thread
where he was displaying his usual lack of patriotism much less gratitude
for the brave men & women out there risking their
everything, to keep the likes of him safe, he just reverts to type.

But seriously can you imagine this uneducated union thug now claims he
is reviewing universities!!! & wait for it he poo poos the engineering
course!!! this from a lying uneducated union thug who couldn't use a
toaster without a union authorised electrician in attendance.

I've included just one of the followup responses but it was such a bald
faced lie it even embarrassed the rejoinders:-)


I have visited West Point, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy and
the sub training facility at Groton. Some years ago, I actually did look
over descriptions of some of the course material at Annapolis and the
c.v.'s of some of the faculty. I'm sure the engineering course material
is fairly rigorous, though it is more "trade-oriented" and did not look
up to MIT or CalTech standards. I mean, if your goal is to be an
aeronautical engineer, you're going to get better training at MIT or
CalTech or at any of a large number of other engineering schools. I
thought the faculty academic credentials no better than what is found at
a typical smaller four year public university. The military academies
turn out military officers with an education, not highly educated
military officers. But that is their purpose, eh?



--


Holy molly, grandma, put on your high boots.


Harry Krause, admitted graduate in the humanities with a degree in English
is hereby qualified to critique the engineering curriculum of not only West
Point, but also that of the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy and
compare it to that of MIT and CalTech.


The above paragraph is a classic.


You missed your calling Harry.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:33:52 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:53:22 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:05:26 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

I guess I won't completely give up on the idea of getting a boat but
it is getting pretty frustrating.

And you shouldn't.

After reading the your last post, I'd suggest that you first find what
you want in a boat, how much you can tow, cost, etc. That will
determine what your engine choice is going to be anyway.

In any case, don't get discouraged. I've settled on what makes me
happy, Tony has done the same as have a lot of contributors here.
Your eventual choice is not going to be a bad one - it will be yours
and that counts for a lot.

Trust me on that.

If I, a lay layman, can summarize what I've learned from this thread
it would be: For this moment, given a relatively small/light boat I
intend to buy (19'-21') I can use a 115 to 200 HP motor. Given I
won't be traveling long distances to fish or recreate (at least in the
boat), fuel efficiency is not critical (nice maybe). Then I should
consider a carbed engine (will work reliably) which may not be the
fastest per pound or the quietest or the least expensive to operate
(fuel plus oil) but may be cheaper in the long run if I get a lemon
EFI/DI. Considering the initial cost of 4 strokes I may never make up
the difference on a new purchase but it would be OK if on a used boat
for a decent price. Just because of the controversy surrounding Merc
these days I may be better off avoiding them if I can but if on a used
boat I like for the right price, a carbed Merc sal****er would be OK
(resale be damned since this is intended to be a 10-15 year boat and
after that there isn't any resale value for my type of boat. In my
case I think I'll stick with my initial thoughts which were to buy
Yamaha if possible. While they may not have a great nationwide
network, they have a good presence in the areas of Florida I will
fishing and they do have shops near where I live Plus that's the brand
of motorcycle I own. Makes as much sense to me as most of this
thread!.

Well, you are well on your way to getting a boat - you seem to have it
all together with one exception.

Don't discount DI engines. They have an unearned reputation as being
junk and they aren't. That includes Yamaha engines. Their DI engines
are great as are the Evinrudes.

One suggestion - if you buy used, and it's a carbed engine, ask to
take a test ride for an hour - pay for the oil and gas, top off the
tank and run it at trolling speeds, cruise, WOT, then fill it again.
That will give you a good measure of what that engine is going to use
in terms of gas. I think you will be surprised.

In any case, have fun with it. Don't let the little brand loyalist
spats around this place ruin the search process for you.

That includes any advice I might give you - it's your decision and
what makes you comfortable is the way to go.

Later,

Tom

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:14:23 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

I'm looking for a new or used boat in the 18-22' range for inshore
sal****er use and the motor is a big concern of mine. What are the
late model motors to avoid? I've heard 4 strokes in general are the
way to go - and 4 strokes are dogs but if you go with a 4 stroke get
Yamaha or, get a Honda - Yamahas are junk. I've heard to get DI 2
stroke. I've heard that Mercs are the worst and the best; however,
I've also heard of many new Mercs being returned and Mercs on recall.
I've heard of Merc "smart" systems screwing up and having to be
disabled. One dealer swore by the new Evenrude DI (they have "smart"
systems too) and I have seen the above as well as Suzuki and Johnson
on the boats I'm looking at. Are there brands, sizes, types (2 or 4
stroke, carb, efi, di) to avoid? I'd appreciate some help.

Get the Honda. Not because I have controlling stock in the company,
but because I know they are the best engines out there.