What's the OB 90-225 HP outboards to avoid
 

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:14:23 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

I'm looking for a new or used boat in the 18-22' range for inshore
sal****er use and the motor is a big concern of mine. What are the
late model motors to avoid? I've heard 4 strokes in general are the
way to go - and 4 strokes are dogs but if you go with a 4 stroke get
Yamaha or, get a Honda - Yamahas are junk. I've heard to get DI 2
stroke. I've heard that Mercs are the worst and the best; however,
I've also heard of many new Mercs being returned and Mercs on recall.
I've heard of Merc "smart" systems screwing up and having to be
disabled. One dealer swore by the new Evenrude DI (they have "smart"
systems too) and I have seen the above as well as Suzuki and Johnson
on the boats I'm looking at. Are there brands, sizes, types (2 or 4
stroke, carb, efi, di) to avoid? I'd appreciate some help.

=============================================

Here in south Florida both the Yamaha and Honda 4 strokes are very
popular, as are the Merc 2 strokes.

bo jangles wrote:
I'm looking for a new or used boat in the 18-22' range for inshore
sal****er use and the motor is a big concern of mine. What are the
late model motors to avoid? I've heard 4 strokes in general are the
way to go - and 4 strokes are dogs but if you go with a 4 stroke get
Yamaha or, get a Honda - Yamahas are junk. I've heard to get DI 2
stroke. I've heard that Mercs are the worst and the best; however,
I've also heard of many new Mercs being returned and Mercs on recall.
I've heard of Merc "smart" systems screwing up and having to be
disabled. One dealer swore by the new Evenrude DI (they have "smart"
systems too) and I have seen the above as well as Suzuki and Johnson
on the boats I'm looking at. Are there brands, sizes, types (2 or 4
stroke, carb, efi, di) to avoid? I'd appreciate some help.

Any 4 stroke is OK.

Stay away from 2 strokes if you can even though boat for boat they
might be cheaper, initially:-)

Don't under any circumstance get a DFI of any type, you'll find give
away prices on Ficht (there's a reason) & cheap Optimax Merc. You won't
find a cheap E-Tec because they're still scamming people they might
work, they won't & you will do your dough if your boat has one.


K


& the Krause lie of the day is..... one from the sad "my father" range,
really really sad actually.

I'm ever proud of my late Dad's life. Clearly the liar is still in
school boy BS mode


My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in
winter in a 22' boat powered by twin outboards.
Yes, it is possible, even the fuel.
Got a "fireboat" welcome in NYC.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:14:23 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

I'm looking for a new or used boat in the 18-22' range for inshore
sal****er use and the motor is a big concern of mine. What are the
late model motors to avoid? I've heard 4 strokes in general are the
way to go - and 4 strokes are dogs but if you go with a 4 stroke get
Yamaha or, get a Honda - Yamahas are junk. I've heard to get DI 2
stroke. I've heard that Mercs are the worst and the best; however,
I've also heard of many new Mercs being returned and Mercs on recall.
I've heard of Merc "smart" systems screwing up and having to be
disabled. One dealer swore by the new Evenrude DI (they have "smart"
systems too) and I have seen the above as well as Suzuki and Johnson
on the boats I'm looking at. Are there brands, sizes, types (2 or 4
stroke, carb, efi, di) to avoid? I'd appreciate some help.

I understand the problem - you hear one thing, you hear another - it's
a freakin' jungle out there. :)

With respect to Honda, they are great engines - no doubt about it.
However, when they break, it can become problematic finding somebody
to repair them properly. Honda believes in the "our engines don't
break, so we don't need technical information to the local level"
philosophy. Their marketing is somewhat suspect. We have a
contributor here who went around in circles over what should have been
a warranty issue. I've heard second hand stories (for what they are
worth) about Honda's sitting in a shop until they could get a Honda
technician from an auto shop to look at the engines.

Yamaha is also a great engine but replacement and warranty parts can
be a problem - the supply lines are very long and if the parts
actually exist, take a while to arrive. Not in all cases, however -
it just depends on what breaks. Yamaha is also playing tough with
American engines by dumping their products making deals with boat
manufacturers. Take that for what it's worth.

I wouldn't buy a Mercury if you paid me to. And not for the reason
you think - it's their warranty policies which suck. One day over the
warranty and you are screwed - big time. Or they will just ignore
their own warranty policies and leave you hanging - I've had personal
experience with that. Great engines, warranty polices suck. Optimax
has had some powerhead problems and were recalled, but overall they
are solid engines. I just won't own one.

The one engine that I don't know a lot about, but have heard really
good things about is Suzuki.

Despite Karen's negative obsession with two strokes, Bombardier is
actually leading the way in terms of technology. I've had FICHT
Evinrudes and nary a problem - I did have one problem, but it was
quickly solved to my satisfaction by Bombardier and they honestly
didn't have to. Haven't had a problem since. I know several folks in
the shelfish industry (clam bullrakers) over in RI and they have a
couple of thousand hours on them with no problems - and these were the
150 engines which were the recall engines.

I'm having E-TEC 225s mounted on my new Contender (this coming week in
fact) - I believe in them, I believe in the technology. Two strokes
are lighter, much better power to weight ratios, more efficient,
longer warranties. cleaner emissions, easier to maintain and with
Bombardier anyway, longer warranties, better acceleration, yada, yada,
yada. Two strokes have it all over four strokes any way you want to
measure it.

Sorry for the length - I get carried away sometimes. :)

Good luck - hope this helps a little.

Later,

Tom

krause


lol,,, you stated that your father crossed the Atlantic in a 22 foot boat
with outboards?? lol,,,ouch,,, ooo my,,,, to a fire boat welcome,,, lol,,,
ouch,,, lol,,

Better call the little darling there krause,, bring on the meds tray,,,

lol,,, most germans immigrate via planes or ships,,, krause's papa come to
the welcome of the fireboats spraying water,,,, lol,,,, Was the President
and Queen there to welcome krause also???

So the old man was a mechanic huh??? which gas bar did he work at??? I know
the type,, check the oil, squeegy the window please sir,,, can you fill it
up with unleaded... lol,,, that explains the three wives and having to stuff
the mother into the cheapest home you could find there krause on the west
side,,, lol,,,,,, krause you are the limit,,,












"HarryKrause" wrote in message
...
K. Smith wrote:
bo jangles wrote:

I'm looking for a new or used boat in the 18-22' range for inshore
sal****er use and the motor is a big concern of mine. What are the
late model motors to avoid? I've heard 4 strokes in general are the
way to go - and 4 strokes are dogs but if you go with a 4 stroke get
Yamaha or, get a Honda - Yamahas are junk. I've heard to get DI 2
stroke. I've heard that Mercs are the worst and the best; however,
I've also heard of many new Mercs being returned and Mercs on recall.
I've heard of Merc "smart" systems screwing up and having to be
disabled. One dealer swore by the new Evenrude DI (they have "smart"
systems too) and I have seen the above as well as Suzuki and Johnson
on the boats I'm looking at. Are there brands, sizes, types (2 or 4
stroke, carb, efi, di) to avoid? I'd appreciate some help.


Any 4 stroke is OK.

Stay away from 2 strokes if you can even though boat for boat they
might be cheaper, initially:-)


The best advice might be to avoid any engine recommendations offered by
one Karen Smith of Australia, a well-known psychotic and usenet stalker
who knows nothing about modern outboard engines and likely never has even
seen one.

Yamaha: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. I personally like the EFI better than the
carb since they crank and run like a car (no choke or throttle required).
Don't get Direct fuel injection. Make sure you have a local dealer that has
a good reputation.

Merc: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Don't get Optimax.
Best dealer network. Best for parts. A good local dealer will take care of
you and you won't have the warrenty issues that Short Wave talked about.

Suzuki: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Local dealer and
dealer network may be an issue.

Honda: 4 stroke (I like the least personally due to dealer network)

Evinrude / Johnson: Stay away from Period. Older ones were good in a carb
2 stroke but I don't think you want to go that old.

Personally I would want 2 stroke EFI that a good reputable local dealer
works on. These engines have been around a long time and should give many
years of trouble free use. (like buying a 350 chevy).

--
Tony
my boats and cars at http://t.thomas.home.mchsi.com
"bo jangles" wrote in message
...
I'm looking for a new or used boat in the 18-22' range for inshore
sal****er use and the motor is a big concern of mine. What are the
late model motors to avoid? I've heard 4 strokes in general are the
way to go - and 4 strokes are dogs but if you go with a 4 stroke get
Yamaha or, get a Honda - Yamahas are junk. I've heard to get DI 2
stroke. I've heard that Mercs are the worst and the best; however,
I've also heard of many new Mercs being returned and Mercs on recall.
I've heard of Merc "smart" systems screwing up and having to be
disabled. One dealer swore by the new Evenrude DI (they have "smart"
systems too) and I have seen the above as well as Suzuki and Johnson
on the boats I'm looking at. Are there brands, sizes, types (2 or 4
stroke, carb, efi, di) to avoid? I'd appreciate some help.

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:08:19 GMT, "tony thomas"
wrote:

Yamaha: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. I personally like the EFI better than the
carb since they crank and run like a car (no choke or throttle required).
Don't get Direct fuel injection. Make sure you have a local dealer that has
a good reputation.

Merc: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Don't get Optimax.
Best dealer network. Best for parts. A good local dealer will take care of
you and you won't have the warrenty issues that Short Wave talked about.

Wanna bet? :) Do we need to bring out the receipts and prove the
point one more time?

Suzuki: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Local dealer and
dealer network may be an issue.

Honda: 4 stroke (I like the least personally due to dealer network)

Evinrude / Johnson: Stay away from Period. Older ones were good in a carb
2 stroke but I don't think you want to go that old.

Karen - is that you? :)

Later,

Tom

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:43:12 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:18:11 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:08:19 GMT, "tony thomas"
wrote:

Yamaha: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. I personally like the EFI better than the
carb since they crank and run like a car (no choke or throttle required).
Don't get Direct fuel injection. Make sure you have a local dealer that has
a good reputation.

Merc: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Don't get Optimax.
Best dealer network. Best for parts. A good local dealer will take care of
you and you won't have the warrenty issues that Short Wave talked about.

Wanna bet? :) Do we need to bring out the receipts and prove the
point one more time?

Suzuki: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Local dealer and
dealer network may be an issue.

Honda: 4 stroke (I like the least personally due to dealer network)

Evinrude / Johnson: Stay away from Period. Older ones were good in a carb
2 stroke but I don't think you want to go that old.

Karen - is that you? :)

WOW! Only a few "meaningful" responses into the thread and no
agreement at all from people that know much more than I. No wonder
I'm confused. I may just scrap the whole idea and continue to rent
boats and let someone else take care of them.

ROTFL!!!!!

You will never actually get a straight answer if you ask an open ended
question. Everybody knows somebody who knows somebody, etc. :)

Everybody agrees that Karen is...well...very negative about 2 stroke
outboards. It doesn't mean she doesn't have knowledge and can't
impart experiences that are meaningful - she can and sometimes does.
It's just in this area, she is extremely biased.

Tony is a Merc guy and is very knowledgable about Mercs. We've been
over around and through this Merc warranty thing - he refuses to
believe that anybody can have a negative experience with Mercury.
That's fine - his belief. He is a valuable contributor to the group
and we disagree on Mercury. I never said they were lousy engines - I
said their warranty policy sucks.

I completely disagree with anybody who is negative towards DI two
stroke technology. My experiences have been positive and I know a lot
of folks who have also had similar experiences. I'm so confident that
I just spent a lot of money on purchasing two E-TECs. Take that for
what you will.

There is an easy way to figure it all out. Take what the responses
have been and take a look around at the different engine
manufacturers. Make a point of going to different sales organizations
and ask questions - what is the difference between 4 stroke and 2
stroke? What is the per hour gas consumption rate? How reliable are
the engines? What is the warranty? Compare emissions figures engine
for engine. Once you have a little product knowledge, get the
technical information and make some comparisons.

Of above all, don't let personal opinions get in the way of the facts.
If you find that you are comfortable with Mercury and the Mercury
dealer, then that's the engine for you. Same with Yamaha, same with
Evinrude - anything.

Owning your own boat is fun. Don't let us with strong opinions ruin
the boat comparison and shopping experience for you.

Good luck.

Later,

Tom

I am not saying that Merc is perfect. No motor will run forever without
doing maintenance and repairs.
I just personally have had great experiences with my local Merc dealer. As
I said earlier - dealer is the most important issue.
I don't normally mention it but I am actually OMC certified as a mechanic.
I went to their school in Atlanta back in 1987. The older ones are great
and have very little problems.
Reason I say don't buy DFI of any brand is not based on the fact that every
one of them is junk. There are a lot of engines out there that are great.
My dad has an Optimax 135 on his pontoon and loves it and has never had a
problem. He bought the Optimax because he wanted the HP and that was the
only good option in that size at the time. Don't buy DFI is based on
resale. As you can see from all the posts - most will tell you the horror
stories and tell you to stay away. There just is no need at this point to
buy one. You can get a 4 stroke or 2 stroke EFI for the same price (or
less) in any size you want so why bother with the DFI.

As for the original question. Figure out who has the best dealerships and
service departments in your particular area. Then find a boat you like w/
that brand 4 stroke or 2 stroke EFI engine in the correct HP for that boat.
Just be aware that Evinrude / Johnson resale will probably be less (and
harder to sell) than the other brands due to corporate problems and
reputation.

--
Tony
my boats and cars at http://t.thomas.home.mchsi.com

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:43:12 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:18:11 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:08:19 GMT, "tony thomas"
wrote:

Yamaha: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. I personally like the EFI better than
the
carb since they crank and run like a car (no choke or throttle
required).
Don't get Direct fuel injection. Make sure you have a local dealer that
has
a good reputation.

Merc: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Don't get Optimax.
Best dealer network. Best for parts. A good local dealer will take
care of
you and you won't have the warrenty issues that Short Wave talked about.

Wanna bet? :) Do we need to bring out the receipts and prove the
point one more time?

Suzuki: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Local dealer and
dealer network may be an issue.

Honda: 4 stroke (I like the least personally due to dealer network)

Evinrude / Johnson: Stay away from Period. Older ones were good in a
carb
2 stroke but I don't think you want to go that old.

Karen - is that you? :)

WOW! Only a few "meaningful" responses into the thread and no
agreement at all from people that know much more than I. No wonder
I'm confused. I may just scrap the whole idea and continue to rent
boats and let someone else take care of them.

ROTFL!!!!!

You will never actually get a straight answer if you ask an open ended
question. Everybody knows somebody who knows somebody, etc. :)

Everybody agrees that Karen is...well...very negative about 2 stroke
outboards. It doesn't mean she doesn't have knowledge and can't
impart experiences that are meaningful - she can and sometimes does.
It's just in this area, she is extremely biased.

Tony is a Merc guy and is very knowledgable about Mercs. We've been
over around and through this Merc warranty thing - he refuses to
believe that anybody can have a negative experience with Mercury.
That's fine - his belief. He is a valuable contributor to the group
and we disagree on Mercury. I never said they were lousy engines - I
said their warranty policy sucks.

I completely disagree with anybody who is negative towards DI two
stroke technology. My experiences have been positive and I know a lot
of folks who have also had similar experiences. I'm so confident that
I just spent a lot of money on purchasing two E-TECs. Take that for
what you will.

There is an easy way to figure it all out. Take what the responses
have been and take a look around at the different engine
manufacturers. Make a point of going to different sales organizations
and ask questions - what is the difference between 4 stroke and 2
stroke? What is the per hour gas consumption rate? How reliable are
the engines? What is the warranty? Compare emissions figures engine
for engine. Once you have a little product knowledge, get the
technical information and make some comparisons.

Of above all, don't let personal opinions get in the way of the facts.
If you find that you are comfortable with Mercury and the Mercury
dealer, then that's the engine for you. Same with Yamaha, same with
Evinrude - anything.

Owning your own boat is fun. Don't let us with strong opinions ruin
the boat comparison and shopping experience for you.

Good luck.

Later,

Tom

Check the web for boat dealers in the areas you will visit.
Chances are there is a Merc dealer there and probably a Yamaha somewhere
close.
Suzuki is going to be rare in a lot of areas of the country.
Honda is more popular but can be hard to find parts and dealers in smaller
towns/areas.
OMC - you know my thoughts on that.

--
Tony
my boats and cars at http://t.thomas.home.mchsi.com
"bo jangles" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:43:44 GMT, "tony thomas"
wrote:

I am not saying that Merc is perfect. No motor will run forever without
doing maintenance and repairs.
I just personally have had great experiences with my local Merc dealer.
As
I said earlier - dealer is the most important issue.
I don't normally mention it but I am actually OMC certified as a mechanic.
I went to their school in Atlanta back in 1987. The older ones are great
and have very little problems.
Reason I say don't buy DFI of any brand is not based on the fact that
every
one of them is junk. There are a lot of engines out there that are great.
My dad has an Optimax 135 on his pontoon and loves it and has never had a
problem. He bought the Optimax because he wanted the HP and that was the
only good option in that size at the time. Don't buy DFI is based on
resale. As you can see from all the posts - most will tell you the horror
stories and tell you to stay away. There just is no need at this point to
buy one. You can get a 4 stroke or 2 stroke EFI for the same price (or
less) in any size you want so why bother with the DFI.

As for the original question. Figure out who has the best dealerships and
service departments in your particular area. Then find a boat you like w/
that brand 4 stroke or 2 stroke EFI engine in the correct HP for that
boat.
Just be aware that Evinrude / Johnson resale will probably be less (and
harder to sell) than the other brands due to corporate problems and
reputation.

Thanks Tony --- and Tom - glad you could stop rolling and laughing
long enough to put a thoughtful response together. My problem will be
that the boat will not be used where I live but where I visit. If I
bought a boat today (and the temperature was above freezing) I would
have to travel 3 to 30 hours to use it. I hate to think of a 21' boat
in most of the Susquehanna River (Pennsylvania) - wouldn't be much
left of the lower end or the hull. So, when I actually use the boat
(4 months of the year) I will be traveling and have no idea who does
what to who and for how long and how much it will cost. Thus my
original question, not "What's the best..." but "what should I avoid".

I guess I won't completely give up on the idea of getting a boat but
it is getting pretty frustrating.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:43:12 GMT, bo jangles wrote:


On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:18:11 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:08:19 GMT, "tony thomas"
wrote:


Yamaha: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. I personally like the EFI better than the
carb since they crank and run like a car (no choke or throttle required).
Don't get Direct fuel injection. Make sure you have a local dealer that has
a good reputation.

Merc: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Don't get Optimax.
Best dealer network. Best for parts. A good local dealer will take care of
you and you won't have the warrenty issues that Short Wave talked about.

Wanna bet? :) Do we need to bring out the receipts and prove the
point one more time?


Suzuki: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Local dealer and
dealer network may be an issue.

Honda: 4 stroke (I like the least personally due to dealer network)

Evinrude / Johnson: Stay away from Period. Older ones were good in a carb
2 stroke but I don't think you want to go that old.

Karen - is that you? :)

WOW! Only a few "meaningful" responses into the thread and no
agreement at all from people that know much more than I. No wonder
I'm confused. I may just scrap the whole idea and continue to rent
boats and let someone else take care of them.


ROTFL!!!!!

You will never actually get a straight answer if you ask an open ended
question. Everybody knows somebody who knows somebody, etc. :)

Everybody agrees that Karen is...well...very negative about 2 stroke
outboards. It doesn't mean she doesn't have knowledge and can't
impart experiences that are meaningful - she can and sometimes does.
It's just in this area, she is extremely biased.

Hmmm I certainly think the 4 strokes are better than the 2 strokes &
I'd suggest the manufacturers (except one experimental newcomer:-)) have
made the same choices & backed their choices with their own investment
money.

I am against the DFI & if you search google groups you'll read for
weeks & weeks & see I've been saying they won't work since before they
didn't work & still to this day I say "we" are the only ones to give a
rational explanation as to why they didn't, don't & won't work in
consumer usage. If that is a bias again Tom OK I put my hands up:-)


Tony is a Merc guy and is very knowledgable about Mercs. We've been
over around and through this Merc warranty thing - he refuses to
believe that anybody can have a negative experience with Mercury.
That's fine - his belief. He is a valuable contributor to the group

He certainly is & thanks are in order.

and we disagree on Mercury. I never said they were lousy engines - I
said their warranty policy sucks.

I completely disagree with anybody who is negative towards DI two
stroke technology.

Gee Tom,

A publicly admitted failure rate of 1 in 5!!!! Imagine the real rate if
that's what the dealers themselves "admit"???:-)

US$1.3 Billion of union retirees' money lost???

7000 US workers chucked out of work???

A US icon company feet up in a table drain??

Endless boaters lost heaps on their recreation interest during the
biggest recreational spend of all time??

Mercury are so scared of DFI they're spending huge amounts on belatedly
changing over to 4 strokes & again ALL boating consumers will pay in the
end. NB Merc have now claimed dumping protection against Yamaha, which
means this season the price of OBs will go up yet again.



My experiences have been positive and I know a lot
of folks who have also had similar experiences.

You had a failure rate of i in3!!! that's even worse!!! & I hate to tell
you Tom yours too was caused by lean mixture at power, poor atomisation
induced detonation, just the same as the ejected injectors were, the
same as the fuel plumbing leaks were (till the coast guard made them
recall so people didn't die from the fires). So just because your
pistons didn't melt which was the usual failure mode, doesn't mean your
engines were not detonating, it just means the horrendous shock waves
killed under the flywheel first.


I'm so confident that
I just spent a lot of money on purchasing two E-TECs. Take that for
what you will.

No comment.... well............:-) apart from he couldn't get any money
for the Fichts any other way than buy even more bad news. Tom is now an
official tester for the latest consumer funded Ficht experiment. He's
paying over 4 stroke prices, hope he gets a supporters T shirt ( if he
can still afford it:-))



There is an easy way to figure it all out. Take what the responses
have been and take a look around at the different engine
manufacturers. Make a point of going to different sales organizations
and ask questions - what is the difference between 4 stroke and 2
stroke? What is the per hour gas consumption rate? How reliable are
the engines? What is the warranty? Compare emissions figures engine
for engine. Once you have a little product knowledge, get the
technical information and make some comparisons.

Also make sure the engines you buy are from long term players, & the
technology is well known & well established as a success, that all but
eliminates the E-Tecs & then if you have any doubts ask how they can ask
such silly prices for a glorified lawn mower 2 stroke engine, even more
than a proper 4 stroke.


Of above all, don't let personal opinions get in the way of the facts.
If you find that you are comfortable with Mercury and the Mercury
dealer, then that's the engine for you. Same with Yamaha, same with
Evinrude - anything.

Not Evinrude you'll be taking a huge risk & they haven't even really
sold any in big quantities yet. This is a re-run of Ficht where they
tell you to "trust" them & they know more than any of the proper engine
manufacturers.

Don't listen to the dealers from any brand they'll say anything to get
your money. Indeed with Ficht despite their denials it transpired
(absolutely for sure, in the courts during the OMC bankruptcy) they were
getting over 30% in kickbacks to continue to lie to consumers, imagine
that 30% of say a US$15000 OB & they didn't even have to pay for
them!!!! No wonder they're liars.

Owning your own boat is fun. Don't let us with strong opinions ruin
the boat comparison and shopping experience for you.

Good luck.

Later,

Tom

K

Speaking of liars (see how I cunningly lead into that???:-))

Another from the very sad "father series, this is the one where he
claims his dad died in the 70s so Krause stepped in to clean up, being
the greedy union employee liar he is I'm sure he cleaned up for himself;
but...........

As always his lies are just lies, anyone in the boating industry knows
dealers don't actually "own" the stock, much less a dealer in the 70 has
$3mil on the floor (what's that in todays money??? gee just cpi it & you
get $11-12 mil:-) but the liar doesn't do the math on his lies because
he's totally an uneducated buffoon. Or why would the industry be
depressed if he sold in 30 days at "near full retail, too" What an idiot.


We're probably lucky really that the lying grub did go off & become a
flunky union employee destroying the US manufacturing industries,
imagine what we'd be paying for Ficht by now:-)


I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats,
depressing the new boat industry in southern Connecticut
for an entire season.
Everything was sold...every cotter pin, every quart of oil,
30 days after I started.
For near full-retail, too.

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:05:26 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

I guess I won't completely give up on the idea of getting a boat but
it is getting pretty frustrating.

And you shouldn't.

After reading the your last post, I'd suggest that you first find what
you want in a boat, how much you can tow, cost, etc. That will
determine what your engine choice is going to be anyway.

In any case, don't get discouraged. I've settled on what makes me
happy, Tony has done the same as have a lot of contributors here.
Your eventual choice is not going to be a bad one - it will be yours
and that counts for a lot.

Trust me on that.

Later,

Tom

K. Smith wrote:

snip

Mercury are so scared of DFI they're spending huge amounts on belatedly
changing over to 4 strokes & again ALL boating consumers will pay in the
end. NB Merc have now claimed dumping protection against Yamaha, which
means this season the price of OBs will go up yet again.


snip

Mercury has a line of optimax motors going to 250 HP, yet spends a great
deal of money, more than 100 million usd I think I have seen reported,
developing a line of 4 strokes, with the first models being 275 and 250
hp. It is indeed interesting to speculate why they would do such a
thing, and until Karen's post I really hadn't considered it.

Some possible reasons.... deciding validity is up to the individual. It
is possible that.....

1. Optimax is not competitive with 4 strokes due to poor reliability or
performance.

2. Optimax is more expensive to manufacture in the long run

3. Customers will migrate to 4 strokes and no longer buy two strokes for
whatever reason.

4. Optimax will be unable to meet emission requirements at some time in
the future.

5. Optimax is not suitable for motors above 250 hp, at least in some
applications.

6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.

These are my quickly thought up hypothetical reasons. Some might even
be true

del cecchi

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:13:59 -0600, Del Cecchi
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.

Anybody want to wager that in the next couple of months - maybe six at
the most - Verado problems with the D/A interface and their fly by
wire control system will surpass OMCs FICHT problems?

Later,

Tom

In article ,
HarryKrause wrote:



From the first announcement, Mercury positioned Optis as a bridge,
nothing more.

This is totally wrong. Mercury's strategy initially was
to use four-stroke motors for low horsepower and to
use OptiMax two-stroke motors for higher horsepower.
This was made clear and public knowledge at the
USITC hearings.

When Mercury saw the overwhelming public adoption
of four-stroke motors, they quickly changed their
game plan and began development of high horsepower
four stroke outboards, now available as the Verado
engines.

Coincident with this change in strategy was also
a change in senior management of both Brunswick
and Mercury. The two are probably related.

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:41:29 -0500, James Hebert
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

When Mercury saw the overwhelming public adoption
of four-stroke motors, they quickly changed their
game plan and began development of high horsepower
four stroke outboards, now available as the Verado
engines.

From what I've been hearing, the Verados are major league gas hogs -
as in 26/30 GPH average. And their control systems are suspect -
shutting down with unexplained engine error codes. It appears to be
pandemic and not just associated with the D/A convertor on retrofitted
boats.

Very interesting.

I'm telling you guys - two stroke is the way to go. :)

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:13:59 -0600, Del Cecchi
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~


6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.


Anybody want to wager that in the next couple of months - maybe six at
the most - Verado problems with the D/A interface and their fly by
wire control system will surpass OMCs FICHT problems?

Later,

Tom

I don't want to actually bet anything Tom:-) Life itself is a big
enough gamble for me:-) but I'm happy to pretend:-) "yeah my bucko, well
I'll bet ya" the 4 strokes in general will be OK from a technology stand
point.

The Verado is a bit interesting, at least to us anyway, given that they
could have easily & it seems cheaply turned to the alloy GM straight 6
which easily puts out 250+ HP in it's 4 ltr form, no supercharger none
of that. For whatever reason Merc have chosen to go their own way in the
core engine, block etc, to drastically reduce the displacement then make
the HP back up with a supercharger, curious approach we say.
Particularly given the longstanding, hugely successful relationship
between Merc & GM but............. as I said the real technology is all
well known & well tested stuff from the rough & tumble of consumer GM cars.

I think the Verados are now down to a 4 cyl 135HP???? (not sure) if so
then the same "family" style of design might have something to do with
their plans. So now the range is almost completely covered with 4 strokes???

The high revving, multi valve, variable cam timing part is all GM & the
supercharging is also well proven straight GM technology.

The electronics are also pretty tame; these days the GM engines come
almost stand alone, the engine management box & just about all else
needed to run is on the engine itself, not buried off in the cabin
somewhere or a separate box; so that will work.

The fly by wire throttle etc??? GM have had a problem with their
throttle bodies for some time now, they've used an electronically,
direct from the engine management box, operated air bypass for idle
speed control & it's been "problematic", so the fly by wire throttle
control is just more of the same & maybe an attempt to resolve the known
issues with the bypass system??? It's in the cars too of course.

What is for sure is that by going their own way with the core engine,
it's cost Brunswick/Merc a bundle & they're trying to get the price of
all OBs in general up to cover it.

Ficht, Optimax & E-Tec are all dead (E-Tec still born:-)), you can't
run engines at power when lean, a well known & understood fact since the
30s, it's just basic rocket science, the very same problem. So I accept
you don't believe me but do you believe nasa???

Add into all three very poor atomisation from not enough injection
pressure & it's worse.

Then with Ficht & E-Tec add inaccurate loony tunes continuous spark
ignition when in lean mode & it's hopeless.

Then with Ficht & E-Tec add the most dangerous oiling system since VRO
& consumer usage failures are assured.

If the lean mixtures at power don't get 'em, the poor fuel atomisation,
inaccurate spark timing or lack of proper lubrication will.

K

Been busy today so I'll keep the Krause lie of the day short.

This lying simpleton, after it became clear he was losing a thread
where he was displaying his usual lack of patriotism much less gratitude
for the brave men & women out there risking their
everything, to keep the likes of him safe, he just reverts to type.

But seriously can you imagine this uneducated union thug now claims he
is reviewing universities!!! & wait for it he poo poos the engineering
course!!! this from a lying uneducated union thug who couldn't use a
toaster without a union authorised electrician in attendance.

I've included just one of the followup responses but it was such a bald
faced lie it even embarrassed the rejoinders:-)


I have visited West Point, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy and
the sub training facility at Groton. Some years ago, I actually did look
over descriptions of some of the course material at Annapolis and the
c.v.'s of some of the faculty. I'm sure the engineering course material
is fairly rigorous, though it is more "trade-oriented" and did not look
up to MIT or CalTech standards. I mean, if your goal is to be an
aeronautical engineer, you're going to get better training at MIT or
CalTech or at any of a large number of other engineering schools. I
thought the faculty academic credentials no better than what is found at
a typical smaller four year public university. The military academies
turn out military officers with an education, not highly educated
military officers. But that is their purpose, eh?



--


Holy molly, grandma, put on your high boots.


Harry Krause, admitted graduate in the humanities with a degree in English
is hereby qualified to critique the engineering curriculum of not only West
Point, but also that of the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy and
compare it to that of MIT and CalTech.


The above paragraph is a classic.


You missed your calling Harry.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:33:52 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:53:22 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:05:26 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

I guess I won't completely give up on the idea of getting a boat but
it is getting pretty frustrating.

And you shouldn't.

After reading the your last post, I'd suggest that you first find what
you want in a boat, how much you can tow, cost, etc. That will
determine what your engine choice is going to be anyway.

In any case, don't get discouraged. I've settled on what makes me
happy, Tony has done the same as have a lot of contributors here.
Your eventual choice is not going to be a bad one - it will be yours
and that counts for a lot.

Trust me on that.

If I, a lay layman, can summarize what I've learned from this thread
it would be: For this moment, given a relatively small/light boat I
intend to buy (19'-21') I can use a 115 to 200 HP motor. Given I
won't be traveling long distances to fish or recreate (at least in the
boat), fuel efficiency is not critical (nice maybe). Then I should
consider a carbed engine (will work reliably) which may not be the
fastest per pound or the quietest or the least expensive to operate
(fuel plus oil) but may be cheaper in the long run if I get a lemon
EFI/DI. Considering the initial cost of 4 strokes I may never make up
the difference on a new purchase but it would be OK if on a used boat
for a decent price. Just because of the controversy surrounding Merc
these days I may be better off avoiding them if I can but if on a used
boat I like for the right price, a carbed Merc sal****er would be OK
(resale be damned since this is intended to be a 10-15 year boat and
after that there isn't any resale value for my type of boat. In my
case I think I'll stick with my initial thoughts which were to buy
Yamaha if possible. While they may not have a great nationwide
network, they have a good presence in the areas of Florida I will
fishing and they do have shops near where I live Plus that's the brand
of motorcycle I own. Makes as much sense to me as most of this
thread!.

Well, you are well on your way to getting a boat - you seem to have it
all together with one exception.

Don't discount DI engines. They have an unearned reputation as being
junk and they aren't. That includes Yamaha engines. Their DI engines
are great as are the Evinrudes.

One suggestion - if you buy used, and it's a carbed engine, ask to
take a test ride for an hour - pay for the oil and gas, top off the
tank and run it at trolling speeds, cruise, WOT, then fill it again.
That will give you a good measure of what that engine is going to use
in terms of gas. I think you will be surprised.

In any case, have fun with it. Don't let the little brand loyalist
spats around this place ruin the search process for you.

That includes any advice I might give you - it's your decision and
what makes you comfortable is the way to go.

Later,

Tom

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:14:23 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

I'm looking for a new or used boat in the 18-22' range for inshore
sal****er use and the motor is a big concern of mine. What are the
late model motors to avoid? I've heard 4 strokes in general are the
way to go - and 4 strokes are dogs but if you go with a 4 stroke get
Yamaha or, get a Honda - Yamahas are junk. I've heard to get DI 2
stroke. I've heard that Mercs are the worst and the best; however,
I've also heard of many new Mercs being returned and Mercs on recall.
I've heard of Merc "smart" systems screwing up and having to be
disabled. One dealer swore by the new Evenrude DI (they have "smart"
systems too) and I have seen the above as well as Suzuki and Johnson
on the boats I'm looking at. Are there brands, sizes, types (2 or 4
stroke, carb, efi, di) to avoid? I'd appreciate some help.

Get the Honda. Not because I have controlling stock in the company,
but because I know they are the best engines out there.