Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 01:43:42 -0600 (CST), (Bob Marx)
wrote:

Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?

On a trade? Probably.

Retail sale - check nada.com for a pretty accurate retail price.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------
"The wildness and adventure that are in
fishing still recommend it to me."

Henry David Thoreau
"Walden" (1854)

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Bob Marx wrote:
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?


If you think Honda & Yamaha are bad for depreciation you should see
what a used Ficht or optimax is worth, assuming anyone will buy them at
all:-)


K

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

K Smith wrote:
Bob Marx wrote:
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?


If you think Honda & Yamaha are bad for depreciation you should see
what a used Ficht or optimax is worth, assuming anyone will buy them at
all:-)


K



More bullship from Karen Smith, who doesn't know her ass from the side
of a barn, probably because they're the same size and color.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Harry,

How could you stoop so low??? :=)))))))

Butch

Harry wrote: More bullship from Karen Smith, who doesn't know her ass from
the side
of a barn, probably because they're the same size and color.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

JDavis1277 wrote:
Harry,

How could you stoop so low??? :=)))))))

Butch

Harry wrote: More bullship from Karen Smith, who doesn't know her ass from
the side
of a barn, probably because they're the same size and color.




Might have had something to do with Smith's post, in which she
insinuated she knew something of significance about the resale value of
used "hi-tech" outboard motors in the United States.


--
Email sent to is never read.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

What do you think is the depreciation on any outboard motor? They are not
an investment, toys tend to drop in value pretty quickly.When the factory
warranty runs out, the price plummets.
"Bob Marx" wrote in message
...
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Why would you pay anymore than 50% on a 3 year motor? Your car worth 50% at
3 years?
Bill

"John Wentworth" wrote in message
...
What do you think is the depreciation on any outboard motor? They are not
an investment, toys tend to drop in value pretty quickly.When the factory
warranty runs out, the price plummets.
"Bob Marx" wrote in message
...
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

K Smith wrote in message ...
Bob Marx wrote:
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?


If you think Honda & Yamaha are bad for depreciation you should see
what a used Ficht or optimax is worth, assuming anyone will buy them at
all:-)


K

Have any real data to back your wild allegations up, or just spewing
crap out of your blow hole, as usual?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
K Smith wrote in message
...
Bob Marx wrote:
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?


If you think Honda & Yamaha are bad for depreciation you should see
what a used Ficht or optimax is worth, assuming anyone will buy them at
all:-)


K

Have any real data to back your wild allegations up, or just spewing
crap out of your blow hole, as usual?

You got any data? Look at the discounts that dealers were offering. Look
at the questions of reliability. The perception of the Ficht was they were
failing. And that perception leads to a heavy discount when selling. Plus
all the questions that were on this board and all the fishing / boating
boards about parts availability. That in and of itself lowers the price.
If I was in the market for a used O/B I would look at Yami, and Hondas, and
Merc's over the OMC, just because of the perception.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Calif Bill wrote:


You got any data? Look at the discounts that dealers were offering. Look
at the questions of reliability. The perception of the Ficht was they were
failing. And that perception leads to a heavy discount when selling. Plus
all the questions that were on this board and all the fishing / boating
boards about parts availability. That in and of itself lowers the price.


The persons who were defending ficht when it had an admitted 20% failure
rate, when warranty claims were exceeding eight+ million dollars, and
which sent OMC into bankruptcy are the same persons who are *still*
defending it now.

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message hlink.net...
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
K Smith wrote in message
...
Bob Marx wrote:
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?


If you think Honda & Yamaha are bad for depreciation you should see
what a used Ficht or optimax is worth, assuming anyone will buy them at
all:-)


K

Have any real data to back your wild allegations up, or just spewing
crap out of your blow hole, as usual?

You got any data? Look at the discounts that dealers were offering. Look
at the questions of reliability. The perception of the Ficht was they were
failing. And that perception leads to a heavy discount when selling. Plus
all the questions that were on this board and all the fishing / boating
boards about parts availability. That in and of itself lowers the price.
If I was in the market for a used O/B I would look at Yami, and Hondas, and
Merc's over the OMC, just because of the perception.

Here's some data - Last fall when J/E's road show stopped at my local
dealer I was quoted a price of $14,700 plus controls, prop and
installation and an 04 225 E-Tec/E-Rude. Meanwhile the Local Yamaha
dealer quoted me 15,800 on a 250 HPDI and 16,000 on a 225 4-Stroke.
This fall I got prices between 15K & 16K on the Yammy's, but I've been
watching the Boat Shopper ads for the E-Rude go from 13,900 in the
spring, thru 12,900, 12,500, and 11,995 in the summer and 10,500 in
the fall to $9995 a few weeks ago!!

As I've said here before, I know some folks that won't even think of
buying a used boat w/a late 90's early 00's Johnson or Evinrude, even
if its Carb'ed, and even more that won't touch a FICHT. You can argue
about whether thats fair, but fair or not a smaller buyer base measn a
harder sell and a lower price.

FishFan (proud owner of an 89 Johnson)

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message hlink.net...
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
K Smith wrote in message
...
Bob Marx wrote:
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?


If you think Honda & Yamaha are bad for depreciation you should see
what a used Ficht or optimax is worth, assuming anyone will buy them at
all:-)


K

Have any real data to back your wild allegations up, or just spewing
crap out of your blow hole, as usual?

You got any data?

There's tons of data out there. Can I suggest JD Powers owner
satisfaction surveys? But, I don't understand why you are asking ME
for data. Did I make any allegations?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

But, I don't understand why you are asking ME
for data. Did I make any allegations?

Sure you did. You claimed Yamaha outboards are made in the US with union
labor. Guess what? They're not.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On 27 Jan 2004 17:07:02 -0800, (FishFan) wrote:


Here's some data - Last fall when J/E's road show stopped at my local
dealer I was quoted a price of $14,700 plus controls, prop and
installation and an 04 225 E-Tec/E-Rude. Meanwhile the Local Yamaha
dealer quoted me 15,800 on a 250 HPDI and 16,000 on a 225 4-Stroke.
This fall I got prices between 15K & 16K on the Yammy's, but I've been
watching the Boat Shopper ads for the E-Rude go from 13,900 in the
spring, thru 12,900, 12,500, and 11,995 in the summer and 10,500 in
the fall to $9995 a few weeks ago!!

As I've said here before, I know some folks that won't even think of
buying a used boat w/a late 90's early 00's Johnson or Evinrude, even
if its Carb'ed, and even more that won't touch a FICHT. You can argue
about whether thats fair, but fair or not a smaller buyer base measn a
harder sell and a lower price.

FishFan (proud owner of an 89 Johnson)

Don't be so high and proud.... less than a year ago I was proud owner
of twin 1986 Yamahas.... but there comes a time when one must make a
decision to keep or not.

Much of the logic in this thread is flawed, because nearly all
outboards are overpriced.

Sure they are. So to get the most bang for your buck, you sometimes have to
take advantage of a company's "dumping" practices and buy their undervalued
outboard...like you did with the Suzuki's. They're terrific engines and
would be priced closer to Merc and Yamaha if Suzuki wasn't trying to gain
market share via dumping.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:c3dhc2g=.b1ea2ae14aaa146d91c9acd5bbfd2f90@107 5315967.nulluser.com...
FishFan wrote:

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
K Smith wrote in message
...
Bob Marx wrote:
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?


If you think Honda & Yamaha are bad for depreciation you should
see
what a used Ficht or optimax is worth, assuming anyone will buy
them at
all:-)


K

Have any real data to back your wild allegations up, or just spewing
crap out of your blow hole, as usual?

You got any data? Look at the discounts that dealers were offering.
Look
at the questions of reliability. The perception of the Ficht was
they were
failing. And that perception leads to a heavy discount when
selling. Plus
all the questions that were on this board and all the fishing /
boating
boards about parts availability. That in and of itself lowers the
price.
If I was in the market for a used O/B I would look at Yami, and
Hondas, and
Merc's over the OMC, just because of the perception.

Here's some data - Last fall when J/E's road show stopped at my local
dealer I was quoted a price of $14,700 plus controls, prop and
installation and an 04 225 E-Tec/E-Rude. Meanwhile the Local Yamaha
dealer quoted me 15,800 on a 250 HPDI and 16,000 on a 225 4-Stroke.
This fall I got prices between 15K & 16K on the Yammy's, but I've been
watching the Boat Shopper ads for the E-Rude go from 13,900 in the
spring, thru 12,900, 12,500, and 11,995 in the summer and 10,500 in
the fall to $9995 a few weeks ago!!

As I've said here before, I know some folks that won't even think of
buying a used boat w/a late 90's early 00's Johnson or Evinrude, even
if its Carb'ed, and even more that won't touch a FICHT. You can argue
about whether thats fair, but fair or not a smaller buyer base measn a
harder sell and a lower price.

FishFan (proud owner of an 89 Johnson)


No offense,

Since when do you care if you're offensive?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

But, I don't understand why you are asking ME
for data. Did I make any allegations?

Sure you did. You claimed Yamaha outboards are made in the US with union
labor. Guess what? They're not.

No, he didn't. You've demonstrated you are a careless reader, prone to
jump to erroneous conclusions. This claim of yours is another example of
your inability to internalize what you read.

Yamaha has some plants in the United States, and most of these are
unionized. The company makes a variety of products here, notably some of
its musical instruments. Most of Yamaha's plants in Japan also are
unionized. The company does not exploit its Japanese or American work
forces, thanks in part to the fact that it is unionized.





--
Email sent to is never read.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

NOYB wrote:

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On 27 Jan 2004 17:07:02 -0800, (FishFan) wrote:


Here's some data - Last fall when J/E's road show stopped at my local
dealer I was quoted a price of $14,700 plus controls, prop and
installation and an 04 225 E-Tec/E-Rude. Meanwhile the Local Yamaha
dealer quoted me 15,800 on a 250 HPDI and 16,000 on a 225 4-Stroke.
This fall I got prices between 15K & 16K on the Yammy's, but I've been
watching the Boat Shopper ads for the E-Rude go from 13,900 in the
spring, thru 12,900, 12,500, and 11,995 in the summer and 10,500 in
the fall to $9995 a few weeks ago!!

As I've said here before, I know some folks that won't even think of
buying a used boat w/a late 90's early 00's Johnson or Evinrude, even
if its Carb'ed, and even more that won't touch a FICHT. You can argue
about whether thats fair, but fair or not a smaller buyer base measn a
harder sell and a lower price.

FishFan (proud owner of an 89 Johnson)

Don't be so high and proud.... less than a year ago I was proud owner
of twin 1986 Yamahas.... but there comes a time when one must make a
decision to keep or not.

Much of the logic in this thread is flawed, because nearly all
outboards are overpriced.

Sure they are. So to get the most bang for your buck, you sometimes have to
take advantage of a company's "dumping" practices and buy their undervalued
outboard...like you did with the Suzuki's. They're terrific engines and
would be priced closer to Merc and Yamaha if Suzuki wasn't trying to gain
market share via dumping.


Suzuki has been dumping its outboards in this country for years, yet it
still has negligible market share. It doesn't seem to be able to sign up
very many top-drawer outboard dealers. Dunno why.

--
Email sent to is never read.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Harry Krause wrote:

NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

But, I don't understand why you are asking ME
for data. Did I make any allegations?

Sure you did. You claimed Yamaha outboards are made in the US with union
labor. Guess what? They're not.

No, he didn't. You've demonstrated you are a careless reader, prone to
jump to erroneous conclusions. This claim of yours is another example of
your inability to internalize what you read.


b'asskisser may not have directly said yamaha outboards are made in the
USA, but that certainly was the conclusion which he wanted the reader to
infer. His inference was completely wrong (no suprise there).

But you knew that already, krause. Your spin above is just another
example of the disingenuous-ness that it part and fiber of you.

'Why tell the truth when you can lie or deceive?'

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...



Suzuki has been dumping its outboards in this country for years, yet it
still has negligible market share. It doesn't seem to be able to sign up
very many top-drawer outboard dealers. Dunno why.

--

From what I understand from the Bombardier folks, They sell more Suzuki's in
the US under the Johnson banner than the US Suzuki Division.

Suzuki does not make the Johnson 6 and 8hp 4-strokes. Those were originally
designed and made by OMC and now by Bombardier.

Bill Grannis
service manager

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"NOYB" wrote in message nk.net...
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

But, I don't understand why you are asking ME
for data. Did I make any allegations?

Sure you did. You claimed Yamaha outboards are made in the US with union
labor. Guess what? They're not.

The manufacturing of the item is only one part of the process. I guess
you don't have a clue about that huh? There are other processes, such
as concept, feasibility studies, design, engineering, production,
distribution, sales, and on and on. Yamaha has SEVERAL distribution
points IN THE U.S. for their wares, and they use organized labor. Do
you dispute this?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Charles wrote in message ...
Harry Krause wrote:

NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

But, I don't understand why you are asking ME
for data. Did I make any allegations?

Sure you did. You claimed Yamaha outboards are made in the US with union
labor. Guess what? They're not.

No, he didn't. You've demonstrated you are a careless reader, prone to
jump to erroneous conclusions. This claim of yours is another example of
your inability to internalize what you read.


b'asskisser may not have directly said yamaha outboards are made in the
USA, but that certainly was the conclusion which he wanted the reader to
infer. His inference was completely wrong (no suprise there).

How do YOU know what I "wanted the reader to infer"? How do you
suppose Yamaha outboards are distributed in the U.S.? I'll tell
you...there are SEVERAL distribution centers in the U.S. for Yamaha
outboards, and the ensuing parts and peripherals. There are also
transportation facilities, etc. They use organized labor.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Yamaha has some plants in the United States, and most of these are
unionized. The company makes a variety of products here, notably some of
its musical instruments.

Great. Musical instruments. I see how that's relevent to a post in which
Christopher asked you about your outboard motor.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:50:49 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


Sure they are. So to get the most bang for your buck, you sometimes have
to
take advantage of a company's "dumping" practices and buy their
undervalued
outboard...like you did with the Suzuki's. They're terrific engines and
would be priced closer to Merc and Yamaha if Suzuki wasn't trying to gain
market share via dumping.


Explain to me again how (1) outboards are overpriced and (2) Suzuki is
"dumping" them for what they ought to sell for anyway.....

My brother bought a Suzuki 140 for 3 grand less than a comparable Yamaha.
Is it possible that the Suzuki was $1500 below reasonable market value...and
the Yamaha was $1500 too expensive?

And *I'm* the "binary thinker"?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On 27 Jan 2004 17:07:02 -0800, (FishFan) wrote:


Here's some data - Last fall when J/E's road show stopped at my local
dealer I was quoted a price of $14,700 plus controls, prop and
installation and an 04 225 E-Tec/E-Rude. Meanwhile the Local Yamaha
dealer quoted me 15,800 on a 250 HPDI and 16,000 on a 225 4-Stroke.
This fall I got prices between 15K & 16K on the Yammy's, but I've been
watching the Boat Shopper ads for the E-Rude go from 13,900 in the
spring, thru 12,900, 12,500, and 11,995 in the summer and 10,500 in
the fall to $9995 a few weeks ago!!

As I've said here before, I know some folks that won't even think of
buying a used boat w/a late 90's early 00's Johnson or Evinrude, even
if its Carb'ed, and even more that won't touch a FICHT. You can argue
about whether thats fair, but fair or not a smaller buyer base measn a
harder sell and a lower price.

FishFan (proud owner of an 89 Johnson)

Don't be so high and proud.... less than a year ago I was proud owner
of twin 1986 Yamahas.... but there comes a time when one must make a
decision to keep or not.

Much of the logic in this thread is flawed, because nearly all
outboards are overpriced.


Yeah, I know I don't have much longer, that's why I've been shopping.
I bought the boat knowing a repower bill was looming, but as long as
it runs great (and it has KOW), I think I'll keep it another year. I
figure time is on my side - more info will be available on the
reliability of 4-strokes and HPDI Big Blocks, the prices seem to be
inching down, Suzuki launched a big 4-stroke, Merc and J/E are
selling (but not making) 225 4-strokes. Whe iItake the plunge I'll
post here w/ what I decided on, and why, along w/ what I paid.

FishFan

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

basskisser wrote:

How do YOU know what I "wanted the reader to infer"?

Because you wrote what you did in answer to several postings which
pointed out that krause had bought a outboard which was not made with
union labor. Yours was a flawed attempt to defend the rush limbaugh
wannabe of the left.


I'll tell you...there are SEVERAL distribution centers in the U.S. for
Yamaha outboards, and the ensuing parts and peripherals. There
are also transportation facilities, etc. They use organized labor.

Nice try lamer. That's not the subject. The subject was that krause in
his typical hypocrisy (supposedly) bought an outboard engine which was
not made with union labor.

Take the damn tin can off your head. http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame63.html

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
K Smith wrote in message
...
Bob Marx wrote:
Why?
50% on the 225 I was going to buy At only 3 yrs old?


If you think Honda & Yamaha are bad for depreciation you should see
what a used Ficht or optimax is worth, assuming anyone will buy them
at
all:-)


K

Have any real data to back your wild allegations up, or just spewing
crap out of your blow hole, as usual?

You got any data?

There's tons of data out there. Can I suggest JD Powers owner
satisfaction surveys? But, I don't understand why you are asking ME
for data. Did I make any allegations?

I realize your comprehension abilities lack. If you demand data to support
their hypothesis, then you can be held to the same standard. J.D. Powers
owner satisfaction survey is loads different than the selling price of a
unit that is perceived to be unreliable and from a company that is out of
business.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:50:49 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


Sure they are. So to get the most bang for your buck, you sometimes
have
to
take advantage of a company's "dumping" practices and buy their
undervalued
outboard...like you did with the Suzuki's. They're terrific engines
and
would be priced closer to Merc and Yamaha if Suzuki wasn't trying to
gain
market share via dumping.


Explain to me again how (1) outboards are overpriced and (2) Suzuki is
"dumping" them for what they ought to sell for anyway.....

My brother bought a Suzuki 140 for 3 grand less than a comparable Yamaha.
Is it possible that the Suzuki was $1500 below reasonable market
value...and
the Yamaha was $1500 too expensive?

And *I'm* the "binary thinker"?



What does a Suzuki sell for in Japan? If it sells for about the same price
there as here, is not dumping. Dumping is selling in the US for less than
your local foreign price to gain market share.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:49:11 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:50:49 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


Sure they are. So to get the most bang for your buck, you sometimes
have
to
take advantage of a company's "dumping" practices and buy their
undervalued
outboard...like you did with the Suzuki's. They're terrific engines
and
would be priced closer to Merc and Yamaha if Suzuki wasn't trying to
gain
market share via dumping.


Explain to me again how (1) outboards are overpriced and (2) Suzuki is
"dumping" them for what they ought to sell for anyway.....

My brother bought a Suzuki 140 for 3 grand less than a comparable Yamaha.
Is it possible that the Suzuki was $1500 below reasonable market
value...and
the Yamaha was $1500 too expensive?

And *I'm* the "binary thinker"?


No, you just aren't thinking. Anybody that thinks $21,000 for a gear
case and a six cylinder engine makes sense needs help.


Anybody that doesn't understand the principal of economies of scale needs
help.

You can buy a whole car for what they want for just an engine. That
is overpriced.


Are you familiar with Economies of Scale?
If you add together the total number of outboard motors sold *WORLDWIDE*
each year by all of the manufacturers, you end up with a number near
800,000. Compare that to the number of automobiles sold worldwide in any
given year. Hell, BMW sells more than 800,000 cars all by themselves.

My dental software costs almost $20,000. Windows XP costs one-hundredth of
that. Why? Because Microsoft sells tens of millions of copies of their
software...and Eaglesoft (dental) sells only about 20,000 copies. However,
the manpower (ie--cost of development) that went into Windows is probably
1000 times (or 10,000 times) greater than the manpower that went into
Eaglesoft. By your logic, Eaglesoft should cost one-thousandth what Windows
XP costs.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some marketing
people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special alloys,
bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp four-stroke
(no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs less
than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too.
Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free.


Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity.

P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it.





"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:09:18 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:49:11 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:50:49 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


Sure they are. So to get the most bang for your buck, you
sometimes
have
to
take advantage of a company's "dumping" practices and buy their
undervalued
outboard...like you did with the Suzuki's. They're terrific
engines
and
would be priced closer to Merc and Yamaha if Suzuki wasn't trying
to
gain
market share via dumping.


Explain to me again how (1) outboards are overpriced and (2) Suzuki
is
"dumping" them for what they ought to sell for anyway.....

My brother bought a Suzuki 140 for 3 grand less than a comparable
Yamaha.
Is it possible that the Suzuki was $1500 below reasonable market
value...and
the Yamaha was $1500 too expensive?

And *I'm* the "binary thinker"?


No, you just aren't thinking. Anybody that thinks $21,000 for a gear
case and a six cylinder engine makes sense needs help.


Anybody that doesn't understand the principal of economies of scale needs
help.


Again, you are adrift in a sea of contradiction. Well, we can take
this one several ways....

Assuming this is about "economy of scale" maybe that is why my
Suzuki's cost about half of what Yamahas cost... they are made from
automobile parts.....

Honda did the same thing, but their engines are priced close to
Yamaha. It seems to be widely accepted here that Yamaha sells more
engines than anybody... so they should be cheaper than Suzuki. From
what I can tell, Suzuki sells for about the same amount (adjusted for
currency) worldwide. So much for "economy of scale."

Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand
that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox
should sell for $21,000.00. I've worked in Machine Shops and Foundries
all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can
assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or
assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and
simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such...
especially in this country.

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time
Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.cafeshops.com/recdotboats Shameless
Commercial Plug for Lee's Rec.Boats Clothing

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
Assuming this is about "economy of scale" maybe that is why my
Suzuki's cost about half of what Yamahas cost... they are made from
automobile parts.....

Or *maybe* Suzuki is "dumping" their products over here?


Honda did the same thing, but their engines are priced close to
Yamaha. It seems to be widely accepted here that Yamaha sells more
engines than anybody... so they should be cheaper than Suzuki.

They *should*...but they aren't. Which means that Suzuki is probably
dumping.

From
what I can tell, Suzuki sells for about the same amount (adjusted for
currency) worldwide. So much for "economy of scale."

"From what you can tell"? Show me where Suzuki is selling for the same
price in Japan as it is in the States.




Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand
that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox
should sell for $21,000.00.

That's where you're wrong. R&D, sales and marketing, procurement, etc. all
go into the cost of that outboard. When the Yamaha 225 Four-stroke was
introduced, I had heard that it would take 7 years before Yamaha would even
"break-even" on that motor (to make up for all the R&D costs). That is part
of the reason why they shared the technology with Mercury. In return,
Mercury was supposed to supply to Yamaha the R&D for a new 300hp that
Mercury is working on. With the new "dumping" suit filed about 3 weeks ago,
I'm not sure those plans are still a go.


worked in Machine Shops and Foundries
all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can
assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or
assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and
simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such...
especially in this country.


"...priced as such...especially in this country?" You said before that
Suzuki's sell for the same price everywhere. Do they or don't they?

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Gene Kearns wrote:


Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand
that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox
should sell for $21,000.00. I've worked in Machine Shops and Foundries
all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can
assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or
assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and
simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such...
especially in this country.


Agree. Many items are priced according to what the market will pay, not
by what it costs to produce them. Outboards are *way* overpriced.

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...


In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste
my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future....


Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...
OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some
marketing
people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special
alloys,
bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp
four-stroke
(no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs less
than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too.
Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free.


Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity.

P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it.




Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine for a
lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still be
in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less
than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than O/Bs.
Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and you
can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is probably
about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6 hp
lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government mandated
safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo cuts
off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same
engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end.
And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only about
$7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the
boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About $42k.
Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get the
$$$$.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

grin, do you always get these people to bite so easily?


"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...


In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste
my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future....


Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

Bill,
How many cars are able to make 225 hp out of a 2.0 liter engine...thus
getting 112.5 hp/liter? How many of 'em run their engines at nearly
80-90% of redline continuously for extended periods of time?

You can buy a Cadillac CTS for about $32k. If you want the CTS-V (400hp
Corvette engine in it), expect to cough up another $18k. Now, we both know
that the parts in the bigger engine can't cost *that* much more. You're
paying for technology. You don't have to pay $21k for an outboard...unless
you want the latest technology. A Yammie 200hp OX66 can be bought for half
of that. I said it befo it will take 7 years for Yamaha to recoup the
R&D costs on the 225 four-stroke. You're paying for the technology...not
the parts and pieces.

BTW--Your example about a lawnmower engine is ridiculous. If the
technological standard of a lawnmower engine was on par with a four-stroke
Yammie, everyone would be strapping a Lawn-boy to the stern of their boat.


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...
OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some
marketing
people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special
alloys,
bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp
four-stroke
(no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs
less
than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too.
Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free.


Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity.

P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it.




Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine for
a
lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still be
in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less
than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than O/Bs.
Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and you
can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is probably
about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6
hp
lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government
mandated
safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo
cuts
off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same
engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end.
And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only
about
$7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the
boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About $42k.
Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get
the
$$$$.

So can Yamaha and Mercury.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

It's usually not this easy. Just tonight, alone, I've been called a
"****ing dweeb" and an "idiot" by two guys that are usually pretty
mild-mannered. I surmise that they were Dean supporters...and they're not
in too good a mood right now after Iowa and New Hampshire.




"fred" wrote in message
news:_blSb.54340$U%5.319066@attbi_s03...
grin, do you always get these people to bite so easily?


"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...


In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste
my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future....


Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...
It's usually not this easy. Just tonight, alone, I've been called a
"****ing dweeb" and an "idiot" by two guys that are usually pretty
mild-mannered. I surmise that they were Dean supporters...and they're not
in too good a mood right now after Iowa and New Hampshire.


Oh yeah...
And Gene is ****ed that his boat is too wide for its length.

Yamaha & Hondas lose value FAST
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...
Bill,
How many cars are able to make 225 hp out of a 2.0 liter engine...thus
getting 112.5 hp/liter? How many of 'em run their engines at nearly
80-90% of redline continuously for extended periods of time?

You can buy a Cadillac CTS for about $32k. If you want the CTS-V (400hp
Corvette engine in it), expect to cough up another $18k. Now, we both
know
that the parts in the bigger engine can't cost *that* much more. You're
paying for technology. You don't have to pay $21k for an
outboard...unless
you want the latest technology. A Yammie 200hp OX66 can be bought for
half
of that. I said it befo it will take 7 years for Yamaha to recoup the
R&D costs on the 225 four-stroke. You're paying for the technology...not
the parts and pieces.

BTW--Your example about a lawnmower engine is ridiculous. If the
technological standard of a lawnmower engine was on par with a four-stroke
Yammie, everyone would be strapping a Lawn-boy to the stern of their boat.


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...
OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some
marketing
people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special
alloys,
bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp
four-stroke
(no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs
less
than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too.
Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free.


Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity.

P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it.




Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine
for
a
lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still
be
in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less
than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than
O/Bs.
Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and
you
can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is
probably
about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6
hp
lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government
mandated
safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo
cuts
off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same
engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end.
And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only
about
$7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the
boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About
$42k.
Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get
the
$$$$.

So can Yamaha and Mercury.



The technology of the lawnmower is close to the Yamaha. Tighter tolerances
and more beef in a few places but still close. My T-8 is carbed, same as
the lawnmower. Honda's use a car engine in their big O/B's. Infinity
engine I think. They can get the price, so they do. Where do you get 7
years for the R&D payoff? They are using that R&D all through the line, and
what is the R&D budget? Compared to sales?
Bill