On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:30:07 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H wrote:
Wal-Mart's Colorado Unit Rejects Union

3 minutes ago

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (NYSE:WMT - news) on Friday said
workers at its Colorado tire shop have voted to reject union representation, a
step which deals another blow to efforts to unionize at the world's largest
retailer.

A Wal-Mart statement said tire and lube express associates at its Loveland
supercenter voted 17-1 to reject representation by the United Food & Commercial
Workers Union.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a shame. Wow, seventeen to one.

Wal-Crap's been closing its stores after employees vote for a union.

BTW, Herring, as a sub teacher, aren't you drawing the benefits
negotiated by a labor union?

Actually, in this state anyway, subs aren't part of the collective
bargaining agreement because they aren't subject to the same
educational requirements beyond having a basic degree qualification.

I don't think they are in any other state either, but I'm not sure of
that.

Are you paying your dues, or are you the typical Republican freeloader?

Subs in this state don't pay union dues.

Later,

Tom

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:25:20 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:30:07 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H wrote:
Wal-Mart's Colorado Unit Rejects Union

3 minutes ago

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (NYSE:WMT - news) on Friday said
workers at its Colorado tire shop have voted to reject union representation, a
step which deals another blow to efforts to unionize at the world's largest
retailer.

A Wal-Mart statement said tire and lube express associates at its Loveland
supercenter voted 17-1 to reject representation by the United Food & Commercial
Workers Union.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a shame. Wow, seventeen to one.

Wal-Crap's been closing its stores after employees vote for a union.

BTW, Herring, as a sub teacher, aren't you drawing the benefits
negotiated by a labor union?

Actually, in this state anyway, subs aren't part of the collective
bargaining agreement because they aren't subject to the same
educational requirements beyond having a basic degree qualification.

I don't think they are in any other state either, but I'm not sure of
that.

Are you paying your dues, or are you the typical Republican freeloader?

Subs in this state don't pay union dues.

Later,

Tom

That's also true of Virginia. Teachers don't pay union dues either, if they have
a little sense and don't get frightened into joining by some union hack.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

"Divide each difficulty into as many parts as is feasible and necessary to resolve it."
Rene Descartes

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:42:56 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:25:20 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:30:07 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H wrote:
Wal-Mart's Colorado Unit Rejects Union

3 minutes ago

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (NYSE:WMT - news) on Friday said
workers at its Colorado tire shop have voted to reject union representation, a
step which deals another blow to efforts to unionize at the world's largest
retailer.

A Wal-Mart statement said tire and lube express associates at its Loveland
supercenter voted 17-1 to reject representation by the United Food & Commercial
Workers Union.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a shame. Wow, seventeen to one.

Wal-Crap's been closing its stores after employees vote for a union.

BTW, Herring, as a sub teacher, aren't you drawing the benefits
negotiated by a labor union?

Actually, in this state anyway, subs aren't part of the collective
bargaining agreement because they aren't subject to the same
educational requirements beyond having a basic degree qualification.

I don't think they are in any other state either, but I'm not sure of
that.

Are you paying your dues, or are you the typical Republican freeloader?

Subs in this state don't pay union dues.

That's also true of Virginia. Teachers don't pay union dues either, if they have
a little sense and don't get frightened into joining by some union hack.

No offense, but my wife is one of those "hacks" - a fairly important
one to boot - and she, along with others are trying to fix things
instead of hiding behind some notion of independence.

The good thing about negotiated contracts certain aspects of the
teaching/administrating a school can be defined - don't forget that
you don't have a lot of protection from an administration determined
to get you if they wish.

It's not a good ting to take a free ride John unless you are capable
of negotiating your own separate contract.

As I said, no offense.

Later,

Tom

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:57:04 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:42:56 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:25:20 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:30:07 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H wrote:
Wal-Mart's Colorado Unit Rejects Union

3 minutes ago

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (NYSE:WMT - news) on Friday said
workers at its Colorado tire shop have voted to reject union representation, a
step which deals another blow to efforts to unionize at the world's largest
retailer.

A Wal-Mart statement said tire and lube express associates at its Loveland
supercenter voted 17-1 to reject representation by the United Food & Commercial
Workers Union.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a shame. Wow, seventeen to one.

Wal-Crap's been closing its stores after employees vote for a union.

BTW, Herring, as a sub teacher, aren't you drawing the benefits
negotiated by a labor union?

Actually, in this state anyway, subs aren't part of the collective
bargaining agreement because they aren't subject to the same
educational requirements beyond having a basic degree qualification.

I don't think they are in any other state either, but I'm not sure of
that.

Are you paying your dues, or are you the typical Republican freeloader?

Subs in this state don't pay union dues.

That's also true of Virginia. Teachers don't pay union dues either, if they have
a little sense and don't get frightened into joining by some union hack.

No offense, but my wife is one of those "hacks" - a fairly important
one to boot - and she, along with others are trying to fix things
instead of hiding behind some notion of independence.

The good thing about negotiated contracts certain aspects of the
teaching/administrating a school can be defined - don't forget that
you don't have a lot of protection from an administration determined
to get you if they wish.

It's not a good ting to take a free ride John unless you are capable
of negotiating your own separate contract.

As I said, no offense.

Later,

Tom

No offense taken. Perhaps your wife employs techniques different than those I've
seen used on new teachers by older union reps who happen to also be teachers. I
don't agree that all who are receiving the pay are deserving of same. And, I've
seen that an administration that is determined can get rid of a teacher even
*with* the union representation.

I didn't fear the administrators and, in fact, got along very well with them,
even though I wrote several letters to our local paper.

I would *love* to see the unions get involved in fixing something, like student
discipline, rather than attempt to take credit for everything the school board
does that *is* helpful. Most of the union effort in this county seems directed
against the other union! (I.e., the NEA folks against the AFT folks.)

The local counties are all in competition for good teachers here. I think that
helps our pay (or what used to be my pay) more than the unions.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

"Divide each difficulty into as many parts as is feasible and necessary to resolve it."
Rene Descartes

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:17:58 -0500, John H
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

The local counties are all in competition for good teachers here. I think that
helps our pay (or what used to be my pay) more than the unions.

Well, you have county government which is a much different form of
local control than that here in the Nutmeg State.

We have town prefectures which is a whole different ball game.

Hey - it's a worthy discussion.

Later,

Tom

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:42:56 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:25:20 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:30:07 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H wrote:
Wal-Mart's Colorado Unit Rejects Union

3 minutes ago

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (NYSE:WMT - news) on Friday
said
workers at its Colorado tire shop have voted to reject union
representation, a
step which deals another blow to efforts to unionize at the world's
largest
retailer.

A Wal-Mart statement said tire and lube express associates at its
Loveland
supercenter voted 17-1 to reject representation by the United Food &
Commercial
Workers Union.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a shame. Wow, seventeen to one.

Wal-Crap's been closing its stores after employees vote for a union.

BTW, Herring, as a sub teacher, aren't you drawing the benefits
negotiated by a labor union?

Actually, in this state anyway, subs aren't part of the collective
bargaining agreement because they aren't subject to the same
educational requirements beyond having a basic degree qualification.

I don't think they are in any other state either, but I'm not sure of
that.

Are you paying your dues, or are you the typical Republican freeloader?

Subs in this state don't pay union dues.

That's also true of Virginia. Teachers don't pay union dues either, if
they have
a little sense and don't get frightened into joining by some union hack.

No offense, but my wife is one of those "hacks" - a fairly important
one to boot - and she, along with others are trying to fix things
instead of hiding behind some notion of independence.

The good thing about negotiated contracts certain aspects of the
teaching/administrating a school can be defined - don't forget that
you don't have a lot of protection from an administration determined
to get you if they wish.

It's not a good ting to take a free ride John unless you are capable
of negotiating your own separate contract.

As I said, no offense.

Later,

Tom


Tom, do you believe that all teachers in a school district, regardless of
skill or commitment to the job deserve the same pay increase every year?
Should the bad teachers get the same increase as the good ones? Should the
bad teachers be protected by the union so they keep their jobs?

My wife recently retired from teaching (disability) after 31 or so years.
When she taught she would spend 10-12 hours/day on her work, including time
spent at home grading homework and preparing/planning for her upcoming week.
This was 5 days/weeks with several hours during the weekend. This went on
throughout the school year. Come summer, she would spend 3 full weeks
getting her room ready and preparing for the upcoming year. She was one of
the dedicated teachers.

But she saw her share of teachers on the other end of the spectrum doing
only the minimum to get by.

In the end, they all got the same pay increase and the bad teachers
continued to do a bad job teaching the students.

Is that what the union is all about?

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:19:58 -0500, "JimH" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .

~~ snippage

Tom, do you believe that all teachers in a school district, regardless of
skill or commitment to the job deserve the same pay increase every year?
Should the bad teachers get the same increase as the good ones? Should the
bad teachers be protected by the union so they keep their jobs?

This is a interesting subject and one that can take up terabytes of
bandwidth if the discussion turns - um - difficult. :)

Let's start with the first comment - to wit:" do you believe that all
teachers in a school district, regardless of skill or commitment to
the job deserve the same pay increase every year?

You have to separate this question into two because the first is
totally different than the second.

How do you judge commitment? Is it hours after school doing
additional extra help? Committing to a non-paying coaching or
mentoring position? How about Union commitment - doing all the dirty
work in the organizational trenches so that teachers aren't beat to
hell by administration's and Board of Educations? Is bringing home
reams of papers to correct on a weekend commitment or a function of
the job? Are you in it for yourself or in it for the thrill of
teaching kids?

It's a subjective value and nothing that can be objectively valued.
Is a gym teacher who does his/her job competently who has little or no
out of school commitments or homework assignments less committed to
teaching than a language arts teacher with tons of papers to read and
correct?

Let's move to the second two - this is where the rubber meets the
road. To wit: Should the bad teachers get the same increase as the
good ones?

First, you have to define the objective goals. How does one define
acceptable, or outstanding, teaching? How do you define the skill set
needed to acceptably teach a mixed classroom? How do you define a
"bad" teacher?

The simple answer is testing, but that is also a false value. A
teacher with all high level learners will do much better on a standard
test than a teacher of equal skill who has a mixed class of special
education mainstreamers and middle skill level learners. Or a teacher
with a mix of high, middle, low and Speds.

How do you judge the relative value of a Language Arts teacher vs a
Math or Science teacher - is one more worthy of money than another?
Is one easier to teach than the other?

Then there is a whole matter of seniority - it costs more for teachers
with long term skill sets. Are these more valuable teachers than
those who are first timers? How do you define it?

If you find the answers to these questions, I know somebody who would
really like to talk to you. :)

In the end, they all got the same pay increase and the bad teachers
continued to do a bad job teaching the students.

Is that what the union is all about?

No - or at least it shouldn't be. Unions should be about making sure
the field is level and that nobody is taken advantage of.

Later,

Tom

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:19:58 -0500, "JimH" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..

~~ snippage

Tom, do you believe that all teachers in a school district, regardless of
skill or commitment to the job deserve the same pay increase every year?
Should the bad teachers get the same increase as the good ones? Should
the
bad teachers be protected by the union so they keep their jobs?

This is a interesting subject and one that can take up terabytes of
bandwidth if the discussion turns - um - difficult. :)

Let's start with the first comment - to wit:" do you believe that all
teachers in a school district, regardless of skill or commitment to
the job deserve the same pay increase every year?
You have to separate this question into two because the first is
totally different than the second.

OK. Fair enough

New questions so I understand where you are coming from on these 2 points:

1. Do you believe that all teachers in a school district, regardless of
skills deserve the same pay increase every year?

2. Do you believe that all teachers in a school district, regardless of
commitment, deserve the same pay increase every year?



How do you judge commitment?


It is self evident to the principal who runs the school. Talk to your wife.
She will confirm this.

Commitment to the job is evident during my job appraisals and always has
been.


Is it hours after school doing
additional extra help?


I do not understand your question. If you mean does *x* amount of after
hours work equate to one being a good teacher, the answer is obviously "no".
See my example below of a football coach.

Committing to a non-paying coaching or
mentoring position?
How about Union commitment - doing all the dirty
work in the organizational trenches so that teachers aren't beat to
hell by administration's and Board of Educations?

Union commitment? Bzzzzzz. No credit. Self satisfying. Self gratifying.



Is bringing home
reams of papers to correct on a weekend commitment or a function of
the job? Are you in it for yourself or in it for the thrill of
teaching kids?

I guess you missed my point. And I thought your wife was a teacher.



It's a subjective value and nothing that can be objectively valued.
Is a gym teacher who does his/her job competently who has little or no
out of school commitments or homework assignments less committed to
teaching than a language arts teacher with tons of papers to read and
correct?

Nope. I can cite an elementary school gym teacher who was totally committed
to his job. My wife knew it as did the principal.

This aunt's rocket science Tom...so stop trying to make it that.


Let's move to the second two - this is where the rubber meets the
road. To wit: Should the bad teachers get the same increase as the
good ones?

First, you have to define the objective goals. How does one define
acceptable, or outstanding, teaching? How do you define the skill set
needed to acceptably teach a mixed classroom? How do you define a
"bad" teacher?

Again the answer is quite evident.

A *bad* teacher? One who skates by. One who gives little concern over her
students performance. One who leaves at the bell and does not *punch* in
again till the next school day.

Should that person *deserve* the union negotiated pay increase as the
committed and skilled teachers? I say no. Are you saying yes?

If your wife was a teacher perhaps you can also ask her.


The simple answer is testing, but that is also a false value. A
teacher with all high level learners will do much better on a standard
test than a teacher of equal skill who has a mixed class of special
education mainstreamers and middle skill level learners. Or a teacher
with a mix of high, middle, low and Speds.

A good teacher cannot be defined by testing. It is a start however.


How do you judge the relative value of a Language Arts teacher vs. a
Math or Science teacher - is one more worthy of money than another?
Is one easier to teach than the other?

Then there is a whole matter of seniority - it costs more for teachers
with long term skill sets. Are these more valuable teachers than
those who are first timers? How do you define it?

If you find the answers to these questions, I know somebody who would
really like to talk to you. :)

In the end, they all got the same pay increase and the bad teachers
continued to do a bad job teaching the students.

Is that what the union is all about?

No - or at least it shouldn't be.

We agree.

Unions should be about making sure
the field is level and that nobody is taken advantage of.

Later,

Tom


Actually unions are not needed in the teaching profession, amongst others.

If we use your definition however (Unions should be about making sure the
field is level and that nobody is taken advantage of.) then I guess the
teachers union is falling flat on it's face. ;-)