"K Smith" wrote in message
...

I will point out that garden variety aluminium, we use it here, has a
"melting" point of about 660C or 1220F. So your new "special" high temp
alloy pistons might be stronger, but they are an admission the fuel is
autoigniting, which it definitely is by much much lower temps.



Ah, you don't get it at all, Karen. With FICHTs performing well over 2000
hours in commercial fishing use and for years doing OK, it's not a problem
of piston melting. The "NASA space age" aluminum does not expand as much as
traditional alloys. This allows E-TEC to have a very snug piston to cylinder
fit for less piston-slap noise in the motor. There are also no cutaways in
the skirts either, so the piston has less "rocking" motion. The E-TEC is
competing against the 4-stroke noise issue and the less expanding, tighter
fitting piston helps. I've run the motors and mechanical noise is almost
non-existant, even with the motor cover off.

You are correct about the off-topic posts, most should be relegated to
alt.news. political. crap. See, we can agree on something!

Bill Grannis
service manager

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:29:10 GMT, "Billgran"
wrote:


"K Smith" wrote in message
...

I will point out that garden variety aluminium, we use it here, has a
"melting" point of about 660C or 1220F. So your new "special" high temp
alloy pistons might be stronger, but they are an admission the fuel is
autoigniting, which it definitely is by much much lower temps.

Ah, you don't get it at all, Karen. With FICHTs performing well over 2000
hours in commercial fishing use and for years doing OK, it's not a problem
of piston melting. The "NASA space age" aluminum does not expand as much as
traditional alloys. This allows E-TEC to have a very snug piston to cylinder
fit for less piston-slap noise in the motor. There are also no cutaways in
the skirts either, so the piston has less "rocking" motion. The E-TEC is
competing against the 4-stroke noise issue and the less expanding, tighter
fitting piston helps. I've run the motors and mechanical noise is almost
non-existant, even with the motor cover off.

You are correct about the off-topic posts, most should be relegated to
alt.news. political. crap. See, we can agree on something!

Bill Grannis
service manager

Bill - I heard that the new baffling system on the air intake and some
mechanical changes in the interior surface of the cowling has quieted
the E-TEC engines down a lot. Any truth to that?

It sure would be an improvement over the FICHT - my FICHTs aren't
terribly noisy, but on the Ranger (which is twenty feet long and you
are about 8 feet from the engine) you have to talk louder than normal.
It's better on the Contender because of distance.

Speaking of quiet engines, I was at the last Miami boat show and as a
result of knowing somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody I
managed a ride on a Hydrasport with one of the new Merc outboards -
the motor was all black with no identifying marks, but it had to be at
least 250 Hp - anyway, at full throttle, you could stand next to the
motor and have a conversation at normal volume - incredibly quiet.
That would be the gold standard to my way of thinking.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------
"My rod and my reel - they comfort me."

St. Pete, 12 Lb. Test

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:29:10 GMT, "Billgran"
:
Bill - I heard that the new baffling system on the air intake and some
mechanical changes in the interior surface of the cowling has quieted
the E-TEC engines down a lot. Any truth to that?

It sure would be an improvement over the FICHT - my FICHTs aren't
terribly noisy, but on the Ranger (which is twenty feet long and you
are about 8 feet from the engine) you have to talk louder than normal.
It's better on the Contender because of distance.



The early FICHTS upt thru 1999 had the air intake on the front of the motor
cover and they could be loud at higher speeds, the 2000 had aft side intakes
that were a tad quiter. Finally in 2001, the cover was redesigned with a
baffled aft intake and the motor was very much quieter. When Bombardier took
over for the 2002 and later models, they were even quieter yet with more
silencing and tighter tolerances on the engine components..

The E-TEC without the air silencer and motor cover is a very quiet motor
compared to any other. The nice thing is there are no sound producing parts
like timing belts or alternator belts, ari compressors, or high pressure
belt driven fuel pumps. With it's aft facing air intake manifold for below
15 % power, and a "tuned" Heimholz Resonator style air box for higher
speeds, there is next to no air noise at high rpms. It has a deep quiet tone
at speed, compared some 4-stroke "tinny" noise. The motor cover and the
lower motor pans are lined with acoustic foam. By ear, it is quiter than the
90hp 4-strokes. It does not even have the "water ****ing" sound like the
4-strokes have with their overboard water indicator. E-TEC has a 3/8"
discharge port so the water flows out gently without making the "****ing in
the toilet" sound.

The nice thing about this system is that it is not dependent on a battery
like every other EFI or DFI motor. It has a self contained magneto and
develops enough energy to start the motor within one revolution. The
starting is so quick, it's almost scary, the tach is reading almost the
instant you turn the key to START.

Since it is magneto controlled, it can be built for very small motors,
unlike fuel injected systems. I saw an experimental one that ran a few years
ago that was a single cyl. 3hp.

Bill Grannis
service manager

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:07:07 GMT, "Billgran"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:29:10 GMT, "Billgran"
:
Bill - I heard that the new baffling system on the air intake and some
mechanical changes in the interior surface of the cowling has quieted
the E-TEC engines down a lot. Any truth to that?

It sure would be an improvement over the FICHT - my FICHTs aren't
terribly noisy, but on the Ranger (which is twenty feet long and you
are about 8 feet from the engine) you have to talk louder than normal.
It's better on the Contender because of distance.



The early FICHTS upt thru 1999 had the air intake on the front of the motor
cover and they could be loud at higher speeds, the 2000 had aft side intakes
that were a tad quiter. Finally in 2001, the cover was redesigned with a
baffled aft intake and the motor was very much quieter. When Bombardier took
over for the 2002 and later models, they were even quieter yet with more
silencing and tighter tolerances on the engine components..

The E-TEC without the air silencer and motor cover is a very quiet motor
compared to any other. The nice thing is there are no sound producing parts
like timing belts or alternator belts, ari compressors, or high pressure
belt driven fuel pumps. With it's aft facing air intake manifold for below
15 % power, and a "tuned" Heimholz Resonator style air box for higher
speeds, there is next to no air noise at high rpms. It has a deep quiet tone
at speed, compared some 4-stroke "tinny" noise. The motor cover and the
lower motor pans are lined with acoustic foam. By ear, it is quiter than the
90hp 4-strokes. It does not even have the "water ****ing" sound like the
4-strokes have with their overboard water indicator. E-TEC has a 3/8"
discharge port so the water flows out gently without making the "****ing in
the toilet" sound.

The nice thing about this system is that it is not dependent on a battery
like every other EFI or DFI motor. It has a self contained magneto and
develops enough energy to start the motor within one revolution. The
starting is so quick, it's almost scary, the tach is reading almost the
instant you turn the key to START.

Since it is magneto controlled, it can be built for very small motors,
unlike fuel injected systems. I saw an experimental one that ran a few years
ago that was a single cyl. 3hp.

Thanks for the info Bill - I appreciate it.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------
"My rod and my reel - they comfort me."

St. Pete, 12 Lb. Test

Billgran wrote:
"K Smith" wrote in message
...


I will point out that garden variety aluminium, we use it here, has a
"melting" point of about 660C or 1220F. So your new "special" high temp
alloy pistons might be stronger, but they are an admission the fuel is
autoigniting, which it definitely is by much much lower temps.




Ah, you don't get it at all, Karen. With FICHTs performing well over 2000
hours in commercial fishing use and for years doing OK, it's not a problem
of piston melting. The "NASA space age" aluminum does not expand as much as
traditional alloys. This allows E-TEC to have a very snug piston to cylinder
fit for less piston-slap noise in the motor. There are also no cutaways in
the skirts either, so the piston has less "rocking" motion. The E-TEC is
competing against the 4-stroke noise issue and the less expanding, tighter
fitting piston helps. I've run the motors and mechanical noise is almost
non-existant, even with the motor cover off.

Sorry Bill they're having a lend of you yet again, just as they did
when they told you all the other BS, by know I thought you might have
been more wary;

(a) It was the ECU programs, till they changed them every second
wednesday to no effect & now you see more changes as a plus???
(b) it was all the evil "piston supplier's QA" that was causing the
blown powerheads back in the Ficht times. But again we had to point out
to you that the carbed almost same engine (block, internal, HP outputs
etc etc etc), from the exact same lines were not chucking 2 in 5
powerheads, indeed they were running about as well as the carbed engines
ever had, what???? it seems those "evil" suppliers were only supplying
those faulty pistons to the Ficht engines?? Marketing BS nothing more.
(c) they told you it was a solenoid driven piston in bore injector
pump, even taught you how to dis & re assemble them, we had to explain
to you that it wasn't, it's just a very low pressure impact pulse pump,
(you didn't believe us till you measured one yourself:-)),
(d) they told you it was the oil "quality", we explained it wasn't
because most mineral oils start to bake solid around 300C,
(e) so Ficht gave you the super duper special dealer only 3 times the
price ficht oil which was supposed to be the "fix". Till we explained to
you it was just vege oil which can take higher temps before it bakes
solid (will you be having fries with that blown ficht?),

However despite all the troubles, OMC got chucked & now Bomb have
chucked it; you never once stopped to wonder why they needed all this
desperate experimental with other peoples' money crap?? What the hell is
in there at anything like 300C that can, break or melt pistons? bake
mineral oil???, bounce & then force injectors out of the cyl heads?
crack the plumbing carry pressurised fuel? We've been suggesting excess
heat from abnormal poorly atomised lean mixture burns for literally
years, but you just pretend, cover your ears & say I can't hear you!! I
can't hear you!!

If anything even near the combustion chamber gets to the sorts of temps
that leave the sorts of things your endless experimental modifications
are trying to fix, then sorry Bill; the fuel is autoigniting for sure &
well before the oil bakes, the piston overheats, the detonation impacts
start breaking fuel lines, the injectors (held in as they have been in
diesels no less!! for many years) start bouncing out of the heads.

We've been screaming poor atomisation!!(no pressure), lean mixture!!!
detonation (because the flamefront is too slow) since day one & you nor
they have ever even mentioned the words; why?? because if not you,
certainly "they" know that's the real cause of the failures, but have no
clue as to what to do about it. If they do figure out how to run IC
engines lean at power, we'll all know pretty quickly because that's the
holy grail, all the big blokes have lusted after for what?? 60 yrs, all
previous attempts failed, just as has this. Thankfully Chrysler & Honda
stopped before it buried them as it did OMC.

Stronger injector fastenings, pistons, vege oils, etc etc etc will
stand up to detonation damage longer, maybe even till the normal mixture
mode can cool the chamber enough, but it's not a solution, it's merely a
defense against the symptoms of the real cause.

We have a new joke line around here?? The latest ficht makes no noise.
It's about how you OMC blokes now tell everyone how quiet the latest
renamed Ficht is: a seized powerhead makes no noise:-) (You need to be
an old ex cruising yachty to fully appreciate it, it follows from the
standard comment when anything takes you by surprise; hmmmm a falling
coconut makes no noise)

I hope you don't think I'm avoiding the issues as you spruik them;-)
but I need to do this one step at a time, & as usual you don't address
the post in hand just spruik more totally incorrect marketing BS your
masters have fed you. However I will have this on disk now & will deal
with it in a later thread; if not, please remind me:-)

You are correct about the off-topic posts, most should be relegated to
alt.news. political. crap. See, we can agree on something!

If you could stop repeating the same spruiker marketing lines over &
over we could agree on more than you imagine. I haven't even mentioned
Ficht within the post yet, so address the substance of the thread then
we can move on. So far then we're in full agreement of those particular
issues??? I promise you'll get lots of opportunity to spruik Ficht
defense lines later because Ficht & E-tech will be getting lots of mentions.

Karen Smith
at your service

Bill Grannis
service manager

K Smith wrote in message ...

If anything even near the combustion chamber gets to the sorts of temps
that leave the sorts of things your endless experimental modifications
are trying to fix


What a wonderful scientific explanation.



We've been screaming poor atomisation!!(no pressure), lean mixture!!!
detonation (because the flamefront is too slow) since day one & you nor
they have ever even mentioned the words;

You've been screaming. Not we, you.

Grannis is an outboard motor service manager? Then anyone rational
will believe him before they believe your nonsense.

"K Smith" wrote in message
...
Billgran wrote:
"K Smith" wrote in message
...


I will point out that garden variety aluminium, we use it here, has
a
"melting" point of about 660C or 1220F. So your new "special" high
temp
alloy pistons might be stronger, but they are an admission the fuel
is
autoigniting, which it definitely is by much much lower temps.




Ah, you don't get it at all, Karen. With FICHTs performing well over
2000
hours in commercial fishing use and for years doing OK, it's not a
problem
of piston melting. The "NASA space age" aluminum does not expand as
much as
traditional alloys. This allows E-TEC to have a very snug piston to
cylinder
fit for less piston-slap noise in the motor. There are also no
cutaways in
the skirts either, so the piston has less "rocking" motion. The
E-TEC is
competing against the 4-stroke noise issue and the less expanding,
tighter
fitting piston helps. I've run the motors and mechanical noise is
almost
non-existant, even with the motor cover off.

Sorry Bill they're having a lend of you yet again, just as they did
when they told you all the other BS, by know I thought you might have
been more wary;

snip

However despite all the troubles, OMC got chucked & now Bomb have
chucked it; you never once stopped to wonder why they needed all this
snip

I believe you have mischaracterized the sale of the Recreational
Products Division. They needed the money to build airplanes and trains.
The family bought the snowmachines and outboards. I would think that is
a vote that there are no timebombs lurking.

del cecchi
Karen Smith
at your service

Bill Grannis
service manager