"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
ps.com...

huge snippage of nothingness

If not believing in god is a religion, then so too is not
believing
that the
earth is made of cream cheese.


Huh!

That was a lot of reading and snipping for "Huh!"

Did you not understand?

If you are saying that NOT believing in god is a religion, then so
too is
NOT believing in anything else...e.g. that the earth is made of cream

cheese, that Tinkerntom is the reincarnation of Howdy Doody, etc.


A belief system regarding God, is a religion, even if it is a system
that believes that God does not exist. Believing that the earth is made
of cream cheese, as long as it does not say anything about God, has
nothing to do with religion, may say something about your credentials
as a geophysicist, and definitely means I would not want to be sending
you to the store for a gallon of cream cheese.

Again, I know you have a distaste for dictionaries, but the common
understanding of what religion means is:

1. a) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as
creator and governor of the universe.
b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and
worship.

The fact that I do not have a religious belief system cannot possible result
in my being "religious" or "having religion."

As you just said, I cannot prove or disprove what is in your
mind.
Now you make the equally absurd statement that Oprah is a
Goddess

I actually doubt I am the only person to ever describe her as
such,
even
though I was doing so only for hypothetical purposes.

which again is a figment of your mind

A hypothetical figment. Whereas you really believe that your
supernatural being is real.

Maybe there is evidence that would show that He is not
hypothetical,
would that mean He is not a figment of my mind, and in fact is
real!

Maybe gravity will end tomorrow. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

The facts are that She exists only in your mind.

and I would again ask you to support that


Nono, you have to prove that Oprah is not god, in the same way you
asked me
to disprove your god.

I am going to have to review our discussion, where did I ask you to
disprove my God? Whatever that means?

If you've never asked me how I know there is no god, I apologize.


Apology acknowledged and accepted! However, disproving my God, is not
the same as proving the lack of your god. As you can not prove or
disprove the existance of my God

We've been over this. You can create anything you want in the confines of
your imagination, and obviously there is nothing I can do to disprove it.

just on the statement of my belief
which cannot be examined being a figment of my mind, except by examing
supporting evidence. Neither can I prove your contention of no god,
apart from evidence you provide. Do you have evidence of there being no
god?

I have no more evidence that there is no god than I have evidence that the
core of the earth is not made of kraft dinner. I am quite confident that the
core of the earth is not made of kraft dinner. I am even more confident that
there is no supernatural invisible being thingy that rules the universe. I
cannot, however, offer proof of either, as I cannot travel to the core of
the earth, nor can I force your own imagination to function within the
confines of reality.

I have ask you repeatedly to provide evidence and support the basis
of
what you say you believe, "There is no god", or the hypothetical
statement that "Oprah is the Goddess." Which though hypothetical,
would
require some sort of evidence to validate any claim to her diety.

Now we are getting somewhere.

You are aksing me to support the basis for my knowing that there is
no god.

I am telling you it is impossible to disprove what is only in your
mind.


I agree that if it is only in your mind, then it is impossible to
disprove, but if there is evidence out side your mind, then we can
examine that and draw some conclusions!

If there is evidence of something, then there must be evidence of it. Or
there would be no evidence of it. That is true. Also a ridiculous waste of
bandwidth to note that it is true.

To help you understand this, I am using the Oprah example.

If I (hypothetically) belive that Oprah is god, can you prove to me
that she
is not?

You prove to me that you have any basis for the claim,
then I will make counter-claims. What evidence are you providing
for
your claim about Oprah? Do you now believe that God is? You have
some
inside info that Oprah is God? Please share it! What is the
nature
of
this God that uniquely identifies her as God. I have never seen
any
such evidence, and as far as I know, she does not make the claim
for
herself. So if you only make the claim with no support, no
evidence, no
corobborating statements by God, what is the basis of your
Faith,
or is
it Blind Faith? The ravings of a lunatic?

It's a hypothetical. If I were to truly believe that Oprah is a
supreme
being, can you prove me wrong?

See, I already explained this...

Please don't get bent out of shape thinking that I am calling
you a
lunatic, unless you believe what you said, which I don't think
you
do!
You were making the statements for the benefit of discussion,
and I
make mine as a reaction to the absurd proposal as if it was for
real.

It's not very absurd, Tinkerntom. Much less absurd than your
belief
in an
invisible man.

You say that I believe in an invisible man! What is your basis for
saying He is invisible. Because you haven't seen Him? How do you
know
God is invisible? Again what is the basis for this statement?

Let's take it another way, since you are the one with the belief.

Have you seen god Tinkerntom?

The scriptures say that no man has seen God, but the same scriptures
say that many men have seen Theophanies. These are apperances of God in
a form that is recognizable to the observer as being Godly, and yet
being understandable from our earthly perspective. To answer your
question, yes I have seen numerouus Theophanies at numerous times. I am
also sure that there have been times that He has appeared, that I did
not recognize him, but that would not mean that He was not seen, just
not recognized.

Have you seen god Tinkerntom?

Now again, what is your evidence that He is invisible? or imaginary? no
god, or no God?

I am telling you it is impossible to disprove what is only in your mind. You
can obviously conjure up a belief in any supernatural thingamajig you want,
and I can't disprove it.

Your first question that you ask, though was more interesting,
"what
would be the basis for saying that I am wrong?" Now this is
something
that we could look into.

The basis has to do with the evidence of the claim. Evidence can
be
examined, and compared, and measured, and introduced as evidence
of
a
claim. The claim itself may be the figment of someones mind
where
we
can't go except indirectly by evidence. You have yet to provide
any
evidence for any of your claims, so I will allow you to present
whatever evidence you have as a basis of whatever claim you
would
like
to make! Respectfully TnT

No evidence is required for a religious belief system. Since it is
founded
in belief in a supernatural being, there is no evidence. The
belief
exists
only in the imagination. If I truly believed Oprah to be a supreme
being,
the evidence for this would be no more or no less than your own
belief in
your own supreme being.

"I still have no idea where you think godtalk and religion depart."

You made this statement above, and considering it with your last
series
of comments about the basis of a person's faith in God, I begin to
get
a better idea of what you belive about religion, and Godtalk, as I
summarize below in the next paragraph..

God is an invisible man, the product of an over-active imagination.
Religion is the worship practice of the man with the over-active
imagination that believes in the invisible man. Because the man is
invisible, it is really god who is invisible, and so there is no
evidence to support the belief of the invisible man being god.
Since
there is no evidence to establish the claims that the invisible man
is
God, their is no point looking for evidence that is not there. If
evidence were provided, at best it is evidence of an over-active
imagination, imagining an imaginary invisible man/God, so the
evidence
is not even worth any serious consideration, since it could not be
truly evidence of God, since God is invisible and only exist in the
imagination of a particular mans mind, and not in real life, now,
or
ever before, or in the future. In real life, god is just the
product of
an over-active imagination, and so there are not real life examples
or
expressions of God in real life. So any talk about God is
unnecessary
and unproductive, and any talk about religion is basically the
same,
and of very little difference. Since there is little difference,
they
are essentially the same, and since there is no evidence to support
either one as being necessary and productive, there is little need,
to
seriously consider either one, and the lack of supporting evidence
only
provides proof that there is no reason to believe in God as
anything
other than the product of an over-active imagination. So since
there is
no evidence for a basis for Godtalk and religion, there is no need
to
have a basis for Godtalk and religion, and hence any god is Ok for
someone, if that is what they choose, though there is no evidence,
because evidence is not necessary. Not only is evidence not
necessary,
but it is undesirable, since it would tend to point to
authenticating
the claims of one particular man about his imaginary god, over the
equally unvalidated claims of another about his imaginary god, and
since all imaginary gods are of equal value, non-value, then having
evidence that supports one god over another is undesirable because
it
biases men's imagination. You choose not to provide any evidence to
support your claims because it would be unnecessary and
undesirable.
You do not endorse one god over another, and each person is welcome
to
their own imaginary God, since it really does not make any
difference
at all. You can not prove what is in the mind of a man, and since
there
is no evidence to believe in a particular God, then you can believe
in
any one of them or none of them for equal benefit. You can not
prove
what each imagines in his mind about his god, and the evidence that
forms that basis of belief is non existant, and unnecessary, and
undesirable, so you choose to not believe in any particular god
since
he is invisible and imaginary. Which gets me back to where I
started
this paragraph.

How am I doing so far with understanding what you are saying? TnT

Let me try giving an example:

A manager claims that the bank is robbed, but in actuality there
was no
robbery. The police show up and look for evidence. Because the
robbery
is just in the mind of the manager, there can be no evidence of a
robbery. Any evidence that is found may be evidence of something
happening, but it could not be evidence of a bank robbery. The
police
not wanting to look inept, bag and classify a lot of evidence, and
work
on building a case. They may even come up with a description of the
imaginary robber. Now the banker may feel safer with all the police
around, and the police feel good because they are hot on the trail
to
solve a case, and the imaginary robber feels good because he will
never
get caught. He becomes known as the invisible bank robber, because
there is never any evidence left at any of the hundreds of banks he
has
held up. We as consumers can know that our money is safe because of
all
the police protection, and the adequate security measures that the
bank
manager has in place to protect our money. Any future robbery the
police don't look for evidence, since they know there won't be any
left
at the crime scene, and evetually they may even stop coming at the
sound of the burglar alarm. But the manager is ok with that since
he
has never lost any of the money entrusted to him. And the robber is
happy because the police have released 100s of pictures of him, and
not
one is close, but it really does not matter because any one of them
will do, since he is the invisible robber.

All this works out just fine until there is a real robbery at the
bank.
The bank manager has now lost alot of money, the police don't come,
and
the real robber gets away with no good description because everyone
thought he was the invisible bank robber.

So truth in reporting, evidence, and valid descriptions does matter
in
RL and in Godtalk! Maybe not in religion, which is where the two
depart, since there are plenty of religions without any of the
above,
that men trust to be led by the invisible god. Personally I prefer
the
visible God who makes Himself known to them who seek Him! TnT

Er. But he/she still only exists in your imagination, just like the
robbery
that never happened.

The fact that you could contrive a lie, get people to believe it, and
change
their behaviour as a result is not in dispute. That's exactly what
religion
is.

and politics, and education, and multitude of other scams that have
been perpetrated on mankind for the advantage of a few.

Correct. Deity belief systems are among this multitude of scams. Only it is
even worse than politics, because a religious person can do or say anything
they want and put the blame on what "god" told them to do.

And that is why I am interested in talking about something that goes
beyond religion! TnT

Good luck. You haven't managed it yet.