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KMAN wrote: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 3/20/05 4:53 AM: KMAN wrote: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 3/20/05 2:54 AM: KMAN wrote: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 3/19/05 9:22 PM: BCITORGB wrote: Tink opines: ============= So we can still look forward to our little chats, about boats and faith. I prefer the personal approach, to enjoying life. A website just seems a little cold and impersonal. That is sort of like fixing something with a ten pound sledge, that needed a more delicate touch! I hope some of you can appreciate my more delicate touch, I only use a five pound sledge! ============= I'm confused. What are you trying to say? frtzw906 It's like this, I appreciate our conversations. The stimulation is good, and it forces me to consider some issues and how my faith applies to them in the market place of life. Not that you necessarily get me to change my mind, or vice versus. But I have to freshen up my faith and the expression of it. I hope that it has been stimulating to you as well. Rest assured that this is one of the main differences I feel between what I am saying, and what is usually passed off as religion (visa-vis Ron's approach), and which I believe KMAN and others have such a viseral reaction too. First off, it is "visceral." Secondly, my "reaction" to religion is not visceral, but rather based on obvservation and reasoned conclusions about the functioning of religious belief systems and their real world impact on human beings. A very standard dictionary definition of religion is: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe; a personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship." It seems to me that your god blather fits this definition rather perfectly, Tinkerntom. So I'm not sure why you think your religious belief system is somehow disctinct from "what is usually passed off as religion." There you go correcting my spelling again The important issue was not really the spelling. but you seemed to know what I was writing about. Now whether you agree with me or not, that is another issue. I was disagreeing with you about my having a visceral reaction to religion. Even your definition of religion It's not my definition, it's from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. comes from your dictionary which may be correct, but that is not what I am talking about, and I am sure you haven't the foggiest Idea what I am speaking about. That you keep trying to pound it into the religious mould, demonstrates your complete unawareness of a part of life that for all your observation and reasoned conclusions, you are blind and clueless. yawn The dictionary definition is a reflection of a common understanding of the meaning of the word "religion." You seem to be saying that your particular god blather is not "religion." I am pointing out that it seems to fit pretty well with what most people would describe as a religion. Did you understand this point Tom? I'm wondering why you skipped through all of this to make a rather vague comment at the end of the post. You are the one that gets after me for my verbiage! So I kept it short, are you asking me to say more now? If so here goes,....Had you worried there for a second didn't I.  Reminds me of a story, a lexiographer, desiring to publish a new dictionary, and in all fairness wanting to get unbiased definitions based on any preconceived perceptions, got to the word "elephant". He decided to hire four blind guys to help develope a definition of what an elephant is like. So he placed one at the front, one at the rear, one underneath, and one on the back of the elephant, and ask them to describe what an elephant was like. Needless to say he got four widely different definitions. Reminds me of a story. A lexographer, desiring to publish a new dictionary, and in all fairness wanting to get unbiased definitions not based on any preconceived perceptions, got to the word "elephant". He decided to hire four blind guys to help develop a definition of what an elephant is like. So he placed one at the front, one at the rear, one underneath, and one on the back of the elephant, and asked them to describe what an elephant was like. Needless to say, all four of the blind guys through their life experience developed an understanding of what an elephant is. Being blind but fully intellectually functional, each of them figured out what parts they were touching and although some of what they were touching was a bit shocking, it did nothing to dissuade them from their understanding that an elephant is a really big freaking mammal. So, the lexographer ended up using a definition of "elephant" that was very much like past definitions of "elephant" which was fitting since elephants had really not changed much since the word "elephant" was first associated with the big freaking mammals. What did you think of that story Tinkerntom? The point of my story, was not the definition, but the limited ability of someone blind to see the whole picture from a limited vantage point. I contend that despite your dictionary, you are at a limited vantage point, blind and clueless to what I am saying. By continuing to try to understand what I am saying by referring to your dictionary definition you only demostrate your blindness. Your story, illustrates my point in that the blind men came up with their definition of the elephant, based on the long held definition of an elephant which they were already familiar with because elephants had not changed very much, and though standing at different vantage points, they know where they were standing in reference to the other parts of the elephant. But what kind of definiton is possible, when there is no prior adequate understanding by someone that is blind? I pray that God would heal your blindness! All I can say to you KMAN, is that I am speaking of something that goes beyond religion. Since religion involves belief in the supernatural, you must be WAY OUT THERE to go beyond that, Tinkerntom! I am not interested in religion per se; belief in, reverence for, personal or institutional system, even if grounded in belief or worship, according to your text book definition. All these thing are things that man is doing Right. A man like Tinkerntom. And I think he's about to do it again. Notice how he won't be able to see the hypocrisy in this. Was I right? And notice that you are still thinking in terms of what man is doing, Religion! And are not able to open your eyes to see the possibility of what God is doing independent of man and religion! That is not hypocritical, or a surprise, for someone that is blind and clueless. Not that there was not a time, I was any different than you, so I understand, and I do not say these things to be mean or hateful towards you! See Melissa, was correct, when she said, we put God in a box (religion) and then limit what He can do by our particular box, or at least as far as we are concerned. We limit Him to our words, phrases, and other expressions of His activity. I am trying to see Him outside of the box, and encourage other to seek Him, and see Him, and what He is doing as well, without the limitations of the Box we call Religion. Even your reference to "She" indicates not religious liberty on your part, but just a different box. So though you protest you are not into God or religion, you in fact acknowledge and practice both! Even if you say I don't believe in God, that is a religion, with all the accompaning practices, words and phrases! Just a different Box! You are trapped, you can not get away from God! Even if you just ignore Him, and don't talk about Him or protest in any way, He is still there very near you! Now I agree, that could be creepy! That He loves you even then, seems very strange! But then He is God! and probably using for his own power/control structure as you so consistantly point out, where he is the big cheese, the top banana, the muckety-muck! That the rest of us get to admire because he is so "spiritual" at least in his own humble opinion. I am not interested in what man is doing, I am interested in finding out what God is doing! Now obviously if you don't believe in God in the first place Only because She doesn't exist. then you don't believe He could be doing anything at all. Approaching this issue in the hypothetical, whatever She's doing, being an omnipotent supernatural being and all, it's pretty clear to me that She'd do whatever She wants to do, and ranting about Her on a kayaking newsgroup isn't going to impact on what She does. Since, after all, She is more powerful than Superman or even Oprah. Or if you believe that there is a pan-theon of Gods, then you may be interested in what they are doing, but most likely, they are more concerned with each other than mere mortals. Um. If you say so. However if there is a God, would it not be beneficial to know what He is up to! If it is possible to know Him, and to see what He is doing, would that change how you look at life and respond to other people, and to Him. All the philosophical head games, word games, annoyingly cute games, that you play with yourself, and with others, become meaningless, if He is, and we can know He is. Play your games in life, and here on RBP, if you want, but if He is, you are only screwing yourself and depriving yourself of the greatest trip around! Then again, maybe religion is a barrier to personal growth and fuller enjoyment of life. Do you think that could be possible Tinkerntom? Religion is definitely a barrier to all kinds of things, especially knowing God, and that is why I am not interested in religion! Religion is like going to a barbecue, and eating the gloves that were worn to put the meat on the grill. They got smoky, and have some flavor of the meat, but I want the steak! Man developed religion like the gloves, to handle God, and manage the heat, and as you have pointed out distribute the benefits (power and control) of the barbeque. I would like to get beyond that and taste the real thing that God is about! I assure you that there is God I assure you that there is no god. He loves you So does my cat. Only my cat exists beyond Tinkerntom's imagination. and He will show Himself to you if you honestly desire to know Him, TnT My cat will show Himself to you for similar reasons. Your spiel in this message was 100% stereotypical of the blather of every promoter of every religion. Disappointing, Tinkerntom, disappointing. And your cluelessness is not surprising! Perhaps not. What cluelessness are you referencing? "Since religion involves belief in the supernatural, you must be WAY OUT THERE to go beyond that, Tinkerntom!" Right? You said that your beliefs were beyond religion. Given that religion involves belief in the supernatural, going beyond must be quite fantastical indeed! The supernatural, is defined as beyond our understanding of the natural. Still though in this universe, just that we do not understand it. God is from a dimension beyond this universe. Not a parallel universe, where things are the same, but slightly shifted. But where there is no time, and the dimensions that we are normally familiar with are non existant. All that is a part of this universe will pass away someday. Any parallel universe based on time will pass away, but the dimension beyond time will continue to exist without beginning and without end. Not that He can not come into this universe, as He has on many ocassions, and continues to do so. We would describe those ocassions as supernatural, for His existance is beyound time even when He appears here in time. I did not find myself going, it was not my doing, but I did find myself dealing with God, beyond the scope of religion and beyond the normal sense of time in this universe! And it is fantastic, and beyond the mind of man to think or comprehend the Love of God, and what He has prepared for us who believe. You may console yourself that you do not believe in God, or that you have not gone over the edge like Tinkerntom, but, that does not change that God is, and that He will reward those who search for Him, and that He loves you! You may be cute and clever about your cat, but you only deceive yourself. If I persist in sharing with you my apparent lunacy as you see it, it is for the Joy of Knowing God, and hoping that Joy could be yours as well! But you are beginning just maybe to get the hang of it a little! That's great. What am I getting the hang of Tinkerntom? That I am talking about something beyond religion, what man is doing, and to find out what God is doing! This is the most exciting treasure hunt there is, if you care about treasure hunts? Even Melissa in her recent e-mail got as close, and then turned away. Check her e-mail if you are interested, see what you can uncover. This is getting fun again! TnT OK? Just OK? This is getting fun again, and you said Jesus freaks don't know how to have fun! I love treasure hunts and solving mysteries! You are aware of the etymology of the word "mysteries" ? in a theological sense, "religious truth via divine revelation, mystical presence of God," What man does with that mystical presence of God is Religion! What I desire, is to experience the presence! Two different things entirely! I apologize for the veribage, but you ask! TnT |
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