BCITORGB wrote:
Tink opines:
=============
So we can still look forward to our little chats, about boats and
faith. I prefer the personal approach, to enjoying life. A website
just seems a little cold and impersonal. That is sort of like fixing
something with a ten pound sledge, that needed a more delicate touch!
I
hope some of you can appreciate my more delicate touch, I only use a
five pound sledge!
=============

I'm confused. What are you trying to say?

frtzw906

It's like this, I appreciate our conversations. The stimulation is
good, and it forces me to consider some issues and how my faith applies
to them in the market place of life. Not that you necessarily get me to
change my mind, or vice versus. But I have to freshen up my faith and
the expression of it. I hope that it has been stimulating to you as
well.

Rest assured that this is one of the main differences I feel between
what I am saying, and what is usually passed off as religion (visa-vis
Ron's approach), and which I believe KMAN and others have such a
viseral reaction too. I am not looking for converts! Let me say that
again, I am not looking for converts!!!! or to get you to join a
church, or give money anywhere to anything or anybody. I could care
less if you ever get babtized, or who you hold hands with, and for how
long.

The scriptures say, some plant, some water, but God gives the increase.
This means to me that I can and should talk about my faith and the hope
I have, but whether you choose to believe me, or not is between you and
God! I do not need you to sign up, show hands, or say anything to me
about what your relationship to God is now, or in the future.

This takes all the pressure off me to get you to convert, and I can
actually accept you as a fellow traveler on the road of life. You like
to paddle, I like to paddle. You ride bikes, I ride bikes. I am sure
that we could find all sorts of areas of similar likes and dislikes.
Some can separate us, some could bring us together, I prefer to find
things that we can mutually agree on.

I want you to know where I stand on the matter of faith, which I expect
you have a pretty good idea, and so now we can go paddle and have a
good time. I won't pull any punches if confronted, but I won't use a 10
lb sledge either.

The passage that I shared with you, was of the Apostle Paul teaching
the Christians in Colossi. Very little of the scriptures is directed
at unbelievers. I do not believe the scriptures were given inorder to
make believers out of unbelivers. If you don't believe the scriptures
are the Word of God, I could try to prove to you with 10,000
scriptures, and it would not make any difference. 99% of Paul's
teaching and of the other Apostles' in the scriptures was directed at
Christians, telling them to straighten up their act. I have big
problems with those who would preach or proselytize using the
scriptures to gain converts, so that they can build bigger churches,
and buy fancier cars and houses and all the other stuff that some do.

Not that I am not suppose to share with you why I believe what I
believe, but only when you ask. I am not trying to prove to you
anything, or to get you to convert, I just share why I believe what I
believe. What you do with it is up to you and God. If you don't do
anything with it for what ever your reason are, those are your reason,
which are not necessarily any of my business unless you choose to share
them with me. That is your choice.

And then we can still work on building your rack, and then go paddling,
and have a good time! With some pizza and beer afterwards! Though I
probably won't hold your hand, or even give you that kiss I've been
threatening you with! Now that's putting it delicately! TnT

Tink recommends pizza and beer:
==============
What you do with it is up to you and God. If you don't do
anything with it for what ever your reason are, those are your reason,
which are not necessarily any of my business unless you choose to share
them with me. That is your choice.

And then we can still work on building your rack, and then go paddling,
and have a good time! With some pizza and beer afterwards!
===============

I'll drink to that! Cheers!

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink recommends pizza and beer:
==============
What you do with it is up to you and God. If you don't do
anything with it for what ever your reason are, those are your
reason,
which are not necessarily any of my business unless you choose to
share
them with me. That is your choice.

And then we can still work on building your rack, and then go
paddling,
and have a good time! With some pizza and beer afterwards!
===============

I'll drink to that! Cheers!

frtzw906

Doesn't sound like you are so confused now! Or at least, when you talk
about P&B, that makes the confusion not be so important! TnT

Tink, my confusion was about the "cold, impersonal website" etc etc...
I didn't know where you were coming from.... still don't

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink, my confusion was about the "cold, impersonal website" etc
etc...
I didn't know where you were coming from.... still don't

frtzw906

Did you check out Ron's website? What was your impression? TnT

Tink asks:
============
Did you check out Ron's website? What was your impression?
===========

WHO is Ron?

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink asks:
============
Did you check out Ron's website? What was your impression?
===========

WHO is Ron?

frtzw906

I apologize frtzw, my shorthand, and assumptions, got you confused! Ron
is Ron038 who recently stated a couple of original post in the NG, "DO
YOU WANT TO KNOW FOR SURE YOU ARE GOING TO HEAVEN?", which are linked
to, "www.want-to-be-sure.blogspot.com" which I got a tinyurl for and
posted to Mark, aka bearsbuddy, which started this particular
mini-thread.

You checked out my tinyurl, and responded back on march 19, @10:14 AM,

"On the topic of religion, however, all bets are off.


So, keeping in mind that I don't want to get into this with you, I ask
you to read this link you recommended and tell me if there aren't at
least a half dozen points made therein that are positively spooky.
Case in point: "It doesn't matter how old you are or how many bad
things that you have done in your life including lying and stealing all

the way up to murder."


Now that's just plain WRONG.


Not wrong because forgiveness is wrong, but wrong because IMHO, it
gives licence to all sorts of kooks to do all sorts of nasty deeds (I
bring up, one more time, nutbars flying planes into office buildings --

these guys had their own version of JC). "What the hell, I'll do
whatever I want, then spout off some mumbo-jumbo and all is OK again."


WRONG!


OK, Tink, I really don't want to get into this with you. Let's get back

to building my roofrack. "

Which I was more than glad to do!

The tinyurl was meant for Mark, who insists on sending me to links
regarding Satan, and referring to praying to Satan on my behalf, which
you could check out if you so desire. This is his reaction to my
sharing as I have, and thinks he is cute and clever in his response. He
either nas no idea of the fire which he is playing with, or maybe he
does, either case, he is neither cute nor clever!

As far as I can find out, both Ron038 and bearsbuddy, have until
recently been posting on ROFF, and only recently started posting on
RBP. I could not determine that either had a lot of interest in
fly-fishing, on ROFF, or paddling here on RBP. Ron038 post his link,
which noone generally replies to, and Mark trolls a way dragging in
anyone he can with mean, nasty, and invaribly OT remarks.

I expect that they would be aware of each other, from Roff, and I
thought I would do a favor for each of them by reintroducing them to
each other, since they both popped up on RBP. Sorry for the confusion
this caused you, and for all the veribage distress my explanation mut
be causing KMAN and others.

As far as your response to the blog, I agree that there is a lot there
that is wrong. It reminds me of the John 3:16, crowd that sets behind
goal post with their sign waiting for the TV camera to pan their sign,
and then claim that they are witnessing. They are witnessing, but what
are they witnessing too. It is an embarassment to me, and I am a
believer!

Hope this clears up the confusion, and how is the rack coming?
Appreciatively, TnT

in article , Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/19/05 9:22 PM:


BCITORGB wrote:
Tink opines:
=============
So we can still look forward to our little chats, about boats and
faith. I prefer the personal approach, to enjoying life. A website
just seems a little cold and impersonal. That is sort of like fixing
something with a ten pound sledge, that needed a more delicate touch!
I
hope some of you can appreciate my more delicate touch, I only use a
five pound sledge!
=============

I'm confused. What are you trying to say?

frtzw906

It's like this, I appreciate our conversations. The stimulation is
good, and it forces me to consider some issues and how my faith applies
to them in the market place of life. Not that you necessarily get me to
change my mind, or vice versus. But I have to freshen up my faith and
the expression of it. I hope that it has been stimulating to you as
well.

Rest assured that this is one of the main differences I feel between
what I am saying, and what is usually passed off as religion (visa-vis
Ron's approach), and which I believe KMAN and others have such a
viseral reaction too.

First off, it is "visceral." Secondly, my "reaction" to religion is not
visceral, but rather based on obvservation and reasoned conclusions about
the functioning of religious belief systems and their real world impact on
human beings.

A very standard dictionary definition of religion is:

"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as
creator and governor of the universe; a personal or institutionalized system
grounded in such belief and worship."

It seems to me that your god blather fits this definition rather perfectly,
Tinkerntom. So I'm not sure why you think your religious belief system is
somehow disctinct from "what is usually passed off as religion."

KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/19/05 9:22 PM:


BCITORGB wrote:
Tink opines:
=============
So we can still look forward to our little chats, about boats and
faith. I prefer the personal approach, to enjoying life. A
website
just seems a little cold and impersonal. That is sort of like
fixing
something with a ten pound sledge, that needed a more delicate
touch!
I
hope some of you can appreciate my more delicate touch, I only use
a
five pound sledge!
=============

I'm confused. What are you trying to say?

frtzw906

It's like this, I appreciate our conversations. The stimulation is
good, and it forces me to consider some issues and how my faith
applies
to them in the market place of life. Not that you necessarily get
me to
change my mind, or vice versus. But I have to freshen up my faith
and
the expression of it. I hope that it has been stimulating to you as
well.

Rest assured that this is one of the main differences I feel
between
what I am saying, and what is usually passed off as religion
(visa-vis
Ron's approach), and which I believe KMAN and others have such a
viseral reaction too.

First off, it is "visceral." Secondly, my "reaction" to religion is
not
visceral, but rather based on obvservation and reasoned conclusions
about
the functioning of religious belief systems and their real world
impact on
human beings.

A very standard dictionary definition of religion is:

"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded
as
creator and governor of the universe; a personal or institutionalized
system
grounded in such belief and worship."

It seems to me that your god blather fits this definition rather
perfectly,
Tinkerntom. So I'm not sure why you think your religious belief
system is
somehow disctinct from "what is usually passed off as religion."

There you go correcting my spelling again, but you seemed to know what
I was writing about. Now whether you agree with me or not, that is
another issue.

Even your definition of religion, comes from your dictionary, which may
be correct, but that is not what I am talking about, and I am sure you
haven't the foggiest Idea what I am speaking about. That you keep
trying to pound it into the religious mould, demonstrates your complete
unawareness of a part of life that for all your observation and
reasoned conclusions, you are blind and clueless.

Reminds me of a story, a lexiographer, desiring to publish a new
dictionary, and in all fairness wanting to get unbiased definitions
based on any preconceived perceptions, got to the word "elephant". He
decided to hire four blind guys to help develope a definition of what
an elephant is like. So he placed one at the front, one at the rear,
one underneath, and one on the back of the elephant, and ask them to
describe what an elephant was like. Needless to say he got four widely
different definitions.

All I can say to you KMAN, is that I am speaking of something that goes
beyond religion. I am not interested in religion per se; belief in,
reverence for, personal or institutional system, even if grounded in
belief or worship, according to your text book definition. All these
thing are things that man is doing, and probably using for his own
power/control structure as you so consistantly point out, where he is
the big cheese, the top banana, the muckety-muck! That the rest of us
get to admire because he is so "spiritual" at least in his own humble
opinion.

I am not interested in what man is doing, I am interested in finding
out what God is doing! Now obviously if you don't believe in God in the
first place, then you don't believe He could be doing anything at all.
Or if you believe that there is a pan-theon of Gods, then you may be
interested in what they are doing, but most likely, they are more
concerned with each other than mere mortals.

However if there is a God, would it not be beneficial to know what He
is up to! If it is possible to know Him, and to see what He is doing,
would that change how you look at life, and respond to other people,
and to Him. All the philosophical head games, word games, annoyingly
cute games, that you play with yourself, and with others, become
meaningless, if He is, and we can know He is. Play your games in life,
and here on RBP, if you want, but if He is, you are only screwing
yourself and depriving yourself of the greatest trip around!

I assure you that there is God, He loves you, and He will show Himself
to you if you honestly desire to know Him, TnT

in article , Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/20/05 2:54 AM:


KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/19/05 9:22 PM:


BCITORGB wrote:
Tink opines:
=============
So we can still look forward to our little chats, about boats and
faith. I prefer the personal approach, to enjoying life. A
website
just seems a little cold and impersonal. That is sort of like
fixing
something with a ten pound sledge, that needed a more delicate
touch!
I
hope some of you can appreciate my more delicate touch, I only use
a
five pound sledge!
=============

I'm confused. What are you trying to say?

frtzw906

It's like this, I appreciate our conversations. The stimulation is
good, and it forces me to consider some issues and how my faith
applies
to them in the market place of life. Not that you necessarily get
me to
change my mind, or vice versus. But I have to freshen up my faith
and
the expression of it. I hope that it has been stimulating to you as
well.

Rest assured that this is one of the main differences I feel
between
what I am saying, and what is usually passed off as religion
(visa-vis
Ron's approach), and which I believe KMAN and others have such a
viseral reaction too.

First off, it is "visceral." Secondly, my "reaction" to religion is
not
visceral, but rather based on obvservation and reasoned conclusions
about
the functioning of religious belief systems and their real world
impact on
human beings.

A very standard dictionary definition of religion is:

"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded
as
creator and governor of the universe; a personal or institutionalized
system
grounded in such belief and worship."

It seems to me that your god blather fits this definition rather
perfectly,
Tinkerntom. So I'm not sure why you think your religious belief
system is
somehow disctinct from "what is usually passed off as religion."

There you go correcting my spelling again

The important issue was not really the spelling.

but you seemed to know what
I was writing about. Now whether you agree with me or not, that is
another issue.

I was disagreeing with you about my having a visceral reaction to religion.

Even your definition of religion

It's not my definition, it's from the American Heritage Dictionary of the
English Language, Fourth Edition.

comes from your dictionary which may
be correct, but that is not what I am talking about, and I am sure you
haven't the foggiest Idea what I am speaking about. That you keep
trying to pound it into the religious mould, demonstrates your complete
unawareness of a part of life that for all your observation and
reasoned conclusions, you are blind and clueless.

yawn

The dictionary definition is a reflection of a common understanding of the
meaning of the word "religion."

You seem to be saying that your particular god blather is not "religion." I
am pointing out that it seems to fit pretty well with what most people would
describe as a religion.

Reminds me of a story, a lexiographer, desiring to publish a new
dictionary, and in all fairness wanting to get unbiased definitions
based on any preconceived perceptions, got to the word "elephant". He
decided to hire four blind guys to help develope a definition of what
an elephant is like. So he placed one at the front, one at the rear,
one underneath, and one on the back of the elephant, and ask them to
describe what an elephant was like. Needless to say he got four widely
different definitions.

Reminds me of a story. A lexographer, desiring to publish a new dictionary,
and in all fairness wanting to get unbiased definitions not based on any
preconceived perceptions, got to the word "elephant". He decided to hire
four blind guys to help develop a definition of what an elephant is like.
So he placed one at the front, one at the rear, one underneath, and one on
the back of the elephant, and asked them to describe what an elephant was
like. Needless to say, all four of the blind guys through their life
experience developed an understanding of what an elephant is. Being blind
but fully intellectually functional, each of them figured out what parts
they were touching and although some of what they were touching was a bit
shocking, it did nothing to dissuade them from their understanding that an
elephant is a really big freaking mammal. So, the lexographer ended up using
a definition of "elephant" that was very much like past definitions of
"elephant" which was fitting since elephants had really not changed much
since the word "elephant" was first associated with the big freaking
mammals.

All I can say to you KMAN, is that I am speaking of something that goes
beyond religion.

Since religion involves belief in the supernatural, you must be WAY OUT
THERE to go beyond that, Tinkerntom!

I am not interested in religion per se; belief in,
reverence for, personal or institutional system, even if grounded in
belief or worship, according to your text book definition. All these
thing are things that man is doing

Right. A man like Tinkerntom. And I think he's about to do it again. Notice
how he won't be able to see the hypocrisy in this.

and probably using for his own
power/control structure as you so consistantly point out, where he is
the big cheese, the top banana, the muckety-muck! That the rest of us
get to admire because he is so "spiritual" at least in his own humble
opinion.

I am not interested in what man is doing, I am interested in finding
out what God is doing! Now obviously if you don't believe in God in the
first place

Only because She doesn't exist.

then you don't believe He could be doing anything at all.

Approaching this issue in the hypothetical, whatever She's doing, being an
omnipotent supernatural being and all, it's pretty clear to me that She'd do
whatever She wants to do, and ranting about Her on a kayaking newsgroup
isn't going to impact on what She does. Since, after all, She is more
powerful than Superman or even Oprah.

Or if you believe that there is a pan-theon of Gods, then you may be
interested in what they are doing, but most likely, they are more
concerned with each other than mere mortals.

Um. If you say so.

However if there is a God, would it not be beneficial to know what He
is up to! If it is possible to know Him, and to see what He is doing,
would that change how you look at life and respond to other people,
and to Him. All the philosophical head games, word games, annoyingly
cute games, that you play with yourself, and with others, become
meaningless, if He is, and we can know He is. Play your games in life,
and here on RBP, if you want, but if He is, you are only screwing
yourself and depriving yourself of the greatest trip around!

Then again, maybe religion is a barrier to personal growth and fuller
enjoyment of life.

I assure you that there is God

I assure you that there is no god.

He loves you

So does my cat. Only my cat exists beyond Tinkerntom's imagination.

and He will show Himself
to you if you honestly desire to know Him, TnT

My cat will show Himself to you for similar reasons.

Your spiel in this message was 100% stereotypical of the blather of every
promoter of every religion. Disappointing, Tinkerntom, disappointing.