KMAN says:
=============
a.. A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether
religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each
individual and not simply accepted on faith. ...

....
g.. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas,
good
will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world
for
ourselves and our children.
==============

Great! Then I are one.

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
KMAN says:
=============
a.. A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether
religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each
individual and not simply accepted on faith. ...

...
g.. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas,
good
will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world
for
ourselves and our children.
==============

Great! Then I are one.

frtzw906

We posted past each other, and I just got your "I are one." I'll give
KMAN a chance to respond as well. TnT

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

BCITORGB wrote:
KMAN says:
=============
a.. A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether
religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each
individual and not simply accepted on faith. ...

...
g.. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas,
good
will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world
for
ourselves and our children.
==============

Great! Then I are one.

frtzw906

We posted past each other, and I just got your "I are one." I'll give
KMAN a chance to respond as well. TnT

It all sounds quite good and fine, but I aren't one.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN says:
=============
a.. A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether
religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each
individual and not simply accepted on faith. ...

...
g.. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas,
good
will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world
for
ourselves and our children.
==============

Great! Then I are one.

frtzw906

Heh. It's hard to say "I don't want that!" isn't it?

BCITORGB wrote:
KMAN says:
=============
a.. A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether
religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each
individual and not simply accepted on faith. ...

...
g.. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas,
good
will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world
for
ourselves and our children.
==============

Great! Then I are one.

frtzw906

You seem to have missed copying some of KMAN list, so I thought I would
copy the whole list!

a.. A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether
religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each
individual and not simply accepted on faith.


What clean lab do you have access to conduct these measurements and
tests, that are not corrupted by the very humanity which you are
testing? Which of your lab technicians do you trust to run these test,
or do you actually run them all yourself, and each has to run them all
for themselves, and you expect to get equivalent and consistent
results? And this would result in data that is reliable enough to put
your faith in eventually! You talk about blind faith, this is dumb
blind faith!

There is the Bureau of Standards in Boulder, that would regulate any
test in the physical world. What bureau of standards do you ascribe to
in your test? Did you say you set your own?



b.. Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and
scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in
seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human
questions.

One of the main human problems is knowing what the problem is, any
observation is subject to the problem! Results in a questionable data
base that is surely corrupted! and answers none of the important human
conditions. Not only does not answer, but obviscates the truth, and
blinds the eyes of those who may take it upon themselves to run the
test themselves.

This is like the old metaphysicist trying to conjure gold out of clay,
or lead, or crap. Still does not work! Talk about faith and mysticism,
you have a better chance believing your going to win the next 1000
lotteries.



c.. A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both
the individual and humankind in general.

Noble hogwash at best. Works until someone cuts you off on the highway,
on the way to work at the lab! Or the grocery store clerk breaks the
eggs, and crushes the bread! Or someone breaks into the lab and ruins
all your tests, and you have to start all over. How many times a day do
you have to start over?


d.. A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding
that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect
perception of it.

A nice way of saying, I can't believe anything I say, and especially
what you say. There is nothing objective about it, it is all
subjective, and in particular subject to the human condition.



e.. A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful
through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our
intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who
differ from us.

More hogwash! If this life is an end in itself, all the history and
artistic achievments will be trash on the next generations dung heap!
Ask HST!



f.. A search for viable individual, social and political principles
of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human
well-being and individual responsibility.

Searching in the dark, Blind, you grab what you can, justify it as
ethical, and judge others by it, while they grabbed what they could,
and do the same to you. But you are both still in the dark at best, and
probably headed for the previously mentioned dungheap in e. above!


g.. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good
will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world
for ourselves and our children.

What conviction, what corrupted reason, the shops are all closed! Will,
maybe but not free to be good! And Tolerance (some struggle when they
are told God loves them!) and for ourselves and our children. You won't
be around long enough to see your children, end up on their dungheap to
be able to change it for them, if you could.

And lacking all these, none of it matters, and if we had any of these
we would still end up on the dungheap.


But if it makes you feel better, go for it! Also know this, there is a
God, and He Loves you, and that changes the whole equation above. TnT

Tink, in reference to humanism:
================
You talk about blind faith, this is dumb blind faith!
=====================

And how is this different from the dumb blind faith of a religious
person?

Tink:
==============
This is like the old metaphysicist trying to conjure gold out of clay,
or lead, or crap. Still does not work!
=======================

Sorry, lead -- gold has been achieved many times. Here in Vancouver,
for example, at TRIUMF - Tri University Meson Facility.

Tink:
===============
A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful
through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our
intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who
differ from us.

More hogwash! If this life is an end in itself, all the history and
artistic achievments will be trash on the next generations dung heap!
Ask HST!
===================

What ARE you talking about. Secular humanists create (art, music,
teach, coach, etc) so as to leave a lasting impression. For us, it's
the only chance we've got.

We're not like crazed religious nuts who would fly planes into
buildings because there is some damned after-life.

There is NO after-life. That's why humanists do the best they can while
they're here. They're the pacifists. The teachers. The artists. The
scientists. They're the ones who give a damn about making THIS life
better!

And your logic about their art being trash on a dung-heap escapes me.

My after-life, insofar as there'll be one, exists in the impression I
leave behind. My after life rests entirely - solely - on my
achievements.

On this point, Tink, you haven't a clue!

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink, in reference to humanism:
================
You talk about blind faith, this is dumb blind faith!
=====================

And how is this different from the dumb blind faith of a religious
person?

Tink:
==============
This is like the old metaphysicist trying to conjure gold out of
clay,
or lead, or crap. Still does not work!
=======================

Sorry, lead -- gold has been achieved many times. Here in Vancouver,
for example, at TRIUMF - Tri University Meson Facility.

Maybe in some super clean nuclear lab, but still not in the
metaphysicist caldron. The gnostics like Tom Harpur have been plying
there poison since the first century, and have not come up with
anything new. Any modern gnostic however noble, is limited to his
output; Garbage in, Garbage out!

Tink:
===============
A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful
through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our
intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who
differ from us.

More hogwash! If this life is an end in itself, all the history and
artistic achievments will be trash on the next generations dung heap!
Ask HST!
===================

What ARE you talking about. Secular humanists create (art, music,
teach, coach, etc) so as to leave a lasting impression. For us, it's
the only chance we've got.

We're not like crazed religious nuts who would fly planes into
buildings because there is some damned after-life.

There is NO after-life. That's why humanists do the best they can
while
they're here. They're the pacifists. The teachers. The artists. The
scientists. They're the ones who give a damn about making THIS life
better!

There are plenty of us who care about the here and hereafter! There are
Christian pacifist, Christian teachers, Christian artist, Christian
scientist, that care plenty, but also believe that there is God, and we
acknowledge Him in all we do, and look forward to.

But you are right on this point, it comes down to this; There is, or
there is no after-life. If you are wrong about there being no
after-life, and there is, you could be in for a few surprise! If I am
wrong, and there is not, then the worst that could happen, is that my
dungheap would be near yours, and if we could speak, you could say, I
told you so forever! But since you would not be able to speak, I will
not worry about it, and there won't be any surprises either!

And your logic about their art being trash on a dung-heap escapes me.

My after-life, insofar as there'll be one, exists in the impression I
leave behind. My after life rests entirely - solely - on my
achievements.

On this point, Tink, you haven't a clue!

frtzw906

So if you take all your artwork, and noble projects, and ideas, and go
out to the local landfill and decorate it so that it looks nicer, like
Cristo in Central Park. Invite in all the media, and take pictures and
write stories. Maybe get some sort of metal from congress for your
contribution to mankind. 100 years from now, shoot 30 years from now
for most of us, and it will just be a landfill. Not what I would want
to stake my reputation on, besides my eternal destiny, but then you
don't believe in the Eternal Destiny thing anyway. How comforting, and
encouraging to all those other fellow travelers marching in a row to
the dump. TnT

Tink:
==========
So if you take all your artwork, and noble projects, and ideas, and go
out to the local landfill and decorate it so that it looks nicer, like
Cristo in Central Park. Invite in all the media, and take pictures and
write stories. Maybe get some sort of metal from congress for your
contribution to mankind. 100 years from now, shoot 30 years from now
for most of us, and it will just be a landfill.
=============

Like I said, you haven't a clue. My legacy lives in so many ways, some
of which are material. Most importantly, through my interactions with
my fellow humans shall I be known (WOW! real biblical ring to that, eh?
GRIN). And, if I do a good job through my interactions with fellow
beings, I'll still be around (the essence of what I teach, anyway) for
decades to come. What more could one ask for? [Why do I think you'll
tell me?]

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink:
==========
So if you take all your artwork, and noble projects, and ideas, and
go
out to the local landfill and decorate it so that it looks nicer,
like
Cristo in Central Park. Invite in all the media, and take pictures
and
write stories. Maybe get some sort of metal from congress for your
contribution to mankind. 100 years from now, shoot 30 years from now
for most of us, and it will just be a landfill.
=============

Like I said, you haven't a clue. My legacy lives in so many ways,
some
of which are material. Most importantly, through my interactions with
my fellow humans shall I be known (WOW! real biblical ring to that,
eh?
GRIN). And, if I do a good job through my interactions with fellow
beings, I'll still be around (the essence of what I teach, anyway)
for
decades to come. What more could one ask for? [Why do I think you'll
tell me?]

frtzw906

So clue me in to this legacy that will live. I have gotten to know you
a little, and I expect that you have been holding some cards close to
your chest. Show me your hand, I call you! TnT

Tink challenges:
=============
So clue me in to this legacy that will live. I have gotten to know you
a little, and I expect that you have been holding some cards close to
your chest. Show me your hand, I call you! TnT
===============

Tink, my interactions with fellow humans are vast. Let me give you
insight into non-work related stuff. I coach 4 different teams: 1
soccer and 3 field hockey (2 girls & one womens). If, a decade or two
from now, one of my players, perhaps coaching a team of her own, passes
on something that I taught or models some behavior, that's awesome. I
can't ask for more.

frtzw906