KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
in article , KMAN at
wrote on 2/28/05 12:59 AM:

in article
,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 2/28/05 12:40 AM:


KMAN wrote:
in article
et,
rick
at
wrote on 2/27/05 5:10 PM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
,
Tinkerntom

snip..



Tinkerntom, I'm actually surprised that a man of your
high
moral stands has
not jumped in to criticize rick for being a liar and a
coward.
Why is that?
================
MAybe for the simple reason that I have not lied. Of
course,
you
cannot make the same claim.
Why not at least back up one of your claims, fool?

If just one Canadian died in a waiting line for health
care
it
would
be a
national scandal featured on the front page of every
newspaper
and
the lead
story of every television and readio news program. It
hasn't
happened
rick.
You made it up. You are a liar. And a coward for
refusing
to
admit
it.

To his credit, Tinkerntom has added his name to the list
of
those
who
have
never seen you prove your claim.

I Did? Where did I say such a thing? TnT

Eh?

Sorry, my mistake. When I first read...

"I agree, that you claim, that he made the claim, and
failed
to
support
it. No mystery here after watching this squabble for the
last
week!"

...I missed out on the weasel words you threw in there. I
guess
you
really
are afraid of rick!

While you are still up, Tinkerntom, let me see if you are
not
too
big
of a
coward to give a straight answer.

Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim
that
Canadians
are dying in waiting lines for health care?

[] Yes

[] No

What if I vote, and I get a hanging chad? Do we call
Katherine
Harris,
Jeb Bush, Florida Supreme Ct. or US Supreme Ct. to get this
mess
straightened out? TnT

Coward!

So what must I do to get off your Coward list, I'm waiting to
hear?
TnT

Answer the question. It's not like I suddenly gave you a label
with
no
foundation, Tinkerntom. You know exactly what this is about.

Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that
Canadians
are dying in waiting lines for health care?

[] Yes
[] No

Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going
through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred
post
by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good
friend
rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in
this
matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to
agree.
However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands
by
his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians
dying
while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming
also
that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait
line. If
they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people
are
dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any
such
claim.

Right. That's all I am saying.

You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but oh
well.

He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in
line
(or waiting on a list) for health care.

However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to
support
his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and
receiving
late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian
had
the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical
attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered
illegal,
and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the
advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying
that
the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the
Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain
procedures

In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically
isolated
areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes.

and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could
receive the medical attention that could have served to save their
lives.

There is no evidence of that.

He was not saying that once the people actually received the
medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were
inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow:

http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm
http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html
http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf


http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html

Yes, I saw all of them.

None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care.

The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding
the
Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian
medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine.

The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos, and not a reliable
source of
objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are
dying
waiting for health care.

Rick
also offered that there were many other links to support his claim,
data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think
tanks,
that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any
other
specific link that I found.

No, he didn't.

Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between
waiting
list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the
links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide
evidence to
support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe
rick a
public apology.

Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where
it
states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for
treatment.

Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note
that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand
better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can
be
abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to
avoid
the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT
TnT

I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question
at hand.

If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that
Canadians have
died waiting in line for treatment, please post it.

KMAN, your question was whether rick posted any evidence, not whether
that evidence was valid! I tried to strain out the knats about the
lines and lists, because you kept talking about lines, and he talked
about lists. His links appear to support what he was saying, and from
his perspective were offered as evidence that some Canadian had died
while on a wait list for medical test and procedures. Those folks may
have died anyway, and maybe not due to being on the wait list which is
his implication. His implication may have been beyond the scope of the
data provided, and your understanding seems unwilling to consider
unfavorable data. Probably both of you are faulted, for your own
reasons. I do not see that it was a lack of care on my part answering
the question, but on yours asking a poorly framed question. Evidence is
submitted in court, tagged and labeled, and added to a case file. It is
evidence whether it is good evidence, pertinent or not. You have your
evidence, when do we hear your apology? The question of its validity is
another issue! TnT