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#1
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KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: in article , KMAN at wrote on 2/28/05 12:59 AM: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 2/28/05 12:40 AM: KMAN wrote: in article et, rick at wrote on 2/27/05 5:10 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , Tinkerntom snip.. Tinkerntom, I'm actually surprised that a man of your high moral stands has not jumped in to criticize rick for being a liar and a coward. Why is that? ================ MAybe for the simple reason that I have not lied. Of course, you cannot make the same claim. Why not at least back up one of your claims, fool? If just one Canadian died in a waiting line for health care it would be a national scandal featured on the front page of every newspaper and the lead story of every television and readio news program. It hasn't happened rick. You made it up. You are a liar. And a coward for refusing to admit it. To his credit, Tinkerntom has added his name to the list of those who have never seen you prove your claim. I Did? Where did I say such a thing? TnT Eh? Sorry, my mistake. When I first read... "I agree, that you claim, that he made the claim, and failed to support it. No mystery here after watching this squabble for the last week!" ...I missed out on the weasel words you threw in there. I guess you really are afraid of rick! While you are still up, Tinkerntom, let me see if you are not too big of a coward to give a straight answer. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No What if I vote, and I get a hanging chad? Do we call Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush, Florida Supreme Ct. or US Supreme Ct. to get this mess straightened out? TnT Coward! So what must I do to get off your Coward list, I'm waiting to hear? TnT Answer the question. It's not like I suddenly gave you a label with no foundation, Tinkerntom. You know exactly what this is about. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred post by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good friend rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in this matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to agree. However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands by his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians dying while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming also that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait line. If they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people are dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any such claim. Right. That's all I am saying. You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but oh well. He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in line (or waiting on a list) for health care. However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal, and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically isolated areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes. and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could receive the medical attention that could have served to save their lives. There is no evidence of that. He was not saying that once the people actually received the medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow: http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html Yes, I saw all of them. None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care. The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine. The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos, and not a reliable source of objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are dying waiting for health care. Rick also offered that there were many other links to support his claim, data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks, that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other specific link that I found. No, he didn't. Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a public apology. Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where it states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for treatment. Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT TnT I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question at hand. If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that Canadians have died waiting in line for treatment, please post it. KMAN, your question was whether rick posted any evidence, not whether that evidence was valid! I tried to strain out the knats about the lines and lists, because you kept talking about lines, and he talked about lists. His links appear to support what he was saying, and from his perspective were offered as evidence that some Canadian had died while on a wait list for medical test and procedures. Those folks may have died anyway, and maybe not due to being on the wait list which is his implication. His implication may have been beyond the scope of the data provided, and your understanding seems unwilling to consider unfavorable data. Probably both of you are faulted, for your own reasons. I do not see that it was a lack of care on my part answering the question, but on yours asking a poorly framed question. Evidence is submitted in court, tagged and labeled, and added to a case file. It is evidence whether it is good evidence, pertinent or not. You have your evidence, when do we hear your apology? The question of its validity is another issue! TnT |
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#3
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KMAN wrote: ....snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I have reviewed ricks evidence, and included some notes, and additional links below. Since he encouraged you to look up additional links in order to refute his claim, and claimed for himself that there were other supporting links, I believe the links I have included would represent a sample of some of the possible links for both of you. I did not include links for organ donation since any donation represented the death of the donator, and would have no meaning in this discussion. I also did not include list of people on routine procedure list that happened to die, but not as a result of the expected and waited for procedure. Primarily this restricted me to cardiac and ontolgy list where the procedure was a life saving procedure, and waiting could have direct life changing ramifications. Some of the links represent particular special interest groups with and ax to grind, and any position they take on an issue should be understood and interpreted accordingly. Various political, national, and academic groups are represented. The first three represent ricks links, and I would specifically point out the quote from #3 Univ of Toronto regardings "claims can not be specifically confirmed or denied", but this is due to lack of data. I do not know whether more data has become available since that time, however there are now many and various conclusions. #7 specifically refers to Diane Gorsuch dying while waiting excessively on a list. Which would support richs claim, and indicate that KMAN owes rick an apology, since KMAN said "show me one person." Lastly I would highlight #12 and echo the last comment, "I think people can draw their own conclusions from the degree of difficulty we're having in dealing with this particular problem right now." The format of this forum is to present rudimentry ideas with minimal support, a subject as complex as this one can only be hacked! Be careful not to get caught on the chopping block! To say that people have died because they are on the list, is different from saying they they died while on the list. Some have definitely died while on the list. No one seems to deny that there are problems in the Canadian Medical System. These problems may be systemic of socialize medicine, and there is a growing dissatisfaction with a call to privatization, though that is not a panacea either. There are various solutions offered, with various drawbacks. More money for medical. More Doctors, or longer wait lists, which gets back to this thread. Longer wait lists would likely result in more people dying while on those wait lists. In the mean time there have been at least 1, and as many as 141 mortalities documented in a study for a particular year, and others implied by study, so when do we hear your apology? TnT 1) http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm editorial by National Union of public and general employees "This suggests that hundreds of people may be dying from what is quite simply under-funding of the system," 2) http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html editorial by CATO Institute referring to Fraiser Inst. "Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News, about 10,000 doctors left Canada in the 1990s. Compounding that exodus is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Miss Houston, Ontario has turned to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It is "creating" 369 new nurse practitioner positions to take up the doctor shortage." 3) http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf from Paper prepared for the Atkinson Foundation; from report prepared for report to Health Canada in 1998. pg 8 "Claims about patients dying because of waiting too long cannot be confirmed or denied from current research and information. This is a part of the sorry state of wait list information in Canada. Even simple statistics such as death from different procedures, or deaths of patients on different lists, are simply not available." 4) http://www.ices.on.ca/webpage.cfm?si...category_id=49 Analysis of deaths while waiting for cardiac surgery among 29,293 consecutive patients in Ontario, Canada, 141 deaths 5) http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/162/6/775 Benchmarking the vital risk of waiting for coronary artery bypass surgery in Ontario Interpretation: Patients awaiting CABG in Ontario are at a much greater risk of death than the general population. However, when compared with thousands of other patients living with coronary artery disease, they are at similar or decreased vital risk 6) http://www.blupete.com/Commentary/MedSystemCanFailureOct'00.htm "The Reason for the Failure Of the Canadian Medical System." Yet, when it comes to medical services, we shun the market: we adopt a system that has brought about ruin to entire countries, a system (central, absolute, and top down) which has never worked and which cannot work. 7) http://winnipeg.cbc.ca/regional/serv...tories20030522 The Tories have called for a review of the province's cardiac care system since Diane Gorsuch died while waiting for surgery back in February. 8) http://www.news-medical.net/?keyword...%20Association Canadians are unhappy with the current Medicare system 9) http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/77/3/769 CONCLUSIONS: Long waiting lists for coronary artery bypass grafting are associated with considerable mortality. The risk of death increases significantly with waiting time. Sex, unstable angina, perioperative risk, impaired left ventricular function, and concomitant aortic valve disease are independent risk factors and should be considered at triage. 10) http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...4/suppl_1/I-92 In summary, a peer-reviewed standardized approach to risk-stratified queue assignment of cardiac surgery patients resulted in a 0.7% waiting-list mortality and an 8.7% rate of upgrades, the majority of which required hospitalization for unstable symptoms. The majority of these adverse events occurred early. A marked increase in surgical capacity would be required to effectively deal with these events. Given our utilization of a peer-review conference to validate indication for surgical intervention, surgical capacity could be increased where economically feasible, allowing reduction in waiting time without fear of rampant overuse of cardiac surgical procedures. Prolonged waiting time was not associated with adverse surgical outcomes among patients undergoing cardiac surgery, and in the urgent queue, earlier intervention was associated with worse outcomes. 11) http://www.cp.org/english/online/ful...D052306AU.html The 58-year-old woman had been awaiting bypass surgery for more than two years. She was the third to die since last July while awaiting surgery. 12) http://canada.medbroadcast.com/healt...nnel_ id=1006 OTTAWA (CP) - Canada's public health system, ignored when it works well, is attracting attention now that its fragility has been highlighted by the SARS outbreak. Public health is a term used to cover many activities designed to prevent illness from occurring, rather than on treating illness after it happens. She said it's an excellent organization with dedicated people, but the municipal tax base is not sufficient to deal with a crisis like SARS. Elliott Halparin, president of the Ontario Medical Association, said the entire health system, not just the prevention side, has been underfunded for years. "This (the SARS outbreak) is going to make everybody realize just how stretched we really were." Halparin said Ontario already had a big problem with waiting lists, but the situation will be exacerbated by the SARS outbreak, which has led to the closure of some hospitals. He is not convinced that the problem will be remedied by federal money promised as part of the recent first ministers health accord. It's still not clear to him how much money there will be, and how it will be directed. He said the biggest problem in medicare is health human resource shortages - not enough doctors, nurses or technologists - and crumbling infrastructure. "Those are the real fundamental issues that need to be addressed. What SARS is doing for us right now is it's creating incredible stress, personal stress." Halparin declined to speculate whether the system could cope with another crisis at the same time as SARS, or whether it could deal with a full-blown pandemic with a high mortality rate. "I think people can draw their own conclusions from the degree of difficulty we're having in dealing with this particular problem right now." [x] Yes [] No Thank you for your patience. Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! |
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#4
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"Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... KMAN wrote: ...snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I deleted it. Has he proven it? For example, did a coroner's inquiry say "Person X died while waiting for health care, and if the health care system had not responded so slowly, she'd still be alive?" That fact that a person was on a waiting list for something and died doesn't mean that caused the death. Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? Please note (in case not obvious) this means that it was the waiting that caused them to die. |
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#5
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"KMAN" wrote in message . .. "Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... KMAN wrote: ...snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I deleted it. ============== Of course you did. You don't like the truth, it hurts too much, right? Has he proven it? ================= Yes... For example, did a coroner's inquiry say "Person X died while waiting for health care, and if the health care system had not responded so slowly, she'd still be alive?" That fact that a person was on a waiting list for something and died doesn't mean that caused the death. Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? Please note (in case not obvious) this means that it was the waiting that caused them to die. ================== ROTFLMAO Waiting doesn't kill tghem fool! The desease is what kills them. Sometimes because they don't get the treatment they need. |
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#6
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#7
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"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article et, rick at wrote on 3/1/05 5:15 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... KMAN wrote: ...snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I deleted it. ============== Of course you did. You don't like the truth, it hurts too much, right? Has he proven it? ================= Yes... For example, did a coroner's inquiry say "Person X died while waiting for health care, and if the health care system had not responded so slowly, she'd still be alive?" That fact that a person was on a waiting list for something and died doesn't mean that caused the death. Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? Please note (in case not obvious) this means that it was the waiting that caused them to die. ================== ROTFLMAO Waiting doesn't kill tghem fool! The desease is what kills them. Sometimes because they don't get the treatment they need. You've provided no evidence of this. -================= Yes, I have, many times now. that you are too afraid to read facts is your problem. liar. |
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#8
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KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... KMAN wrote: ...snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I deleted it. Has he proven it? Yes, he provided evidence, and there was other evidence available! For example, did a coroner's inquiry say "Person X died while waiting for health care, and if the health care system had not responded so slowly, she'd still be alive?" Yes, read about Diane Gorsuch below! That fact that a person was on a waiting list for something and died doesn't mean that caused the death. He never claimed that! If so show me Date and Time of rick's post! I am to tired to search any longer myself, having read and reread probably 100 less than inspiring epistles by you two. Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? Yes, ask and answered previously and below! Please note (in case not obvious) this means that it was the waiting that caused them to die. Now you are changing the question, rick never claimed this. He claimed that people died while their name was on a waiting list, waiting for a test or procedure that could have saved their life. They still might have lost their life, even if they had the procedure, because these were seriously ill individuals with life threatening illness, usually cardiac or ontology, but that is a different issue entirely! Before your deleted it, did you read it? Your promise was posted as follows; Feb 22, 7:03 am "Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology." Feb 22, 2:02 pm "Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology." 1) http://www.cp.org/english/online/ful...D052306AU.html 2) http://canada.medbroadcast.com/healt...&news_ id=755 3) http://www.manpc.mb.ca/03042003.htm 4) http://chealth.canoe.ca/health_news_...1&news_id=8195 The case of Diane Gorsuch a Canadian, provided an example of a person dying while on a wait list, waiting for a life saving operation that could have saved her life if administered in a timely fashion, but after two years of waiting, she died. Evidently the life saving operation was cancelled and rescheduled a number of times. Her death would have been handled by a coroner, and in addition to her death, two other deaths were accounted for at the same time that was the result of being on a wait list for and untimely period. These cases resulted in much public and media outcry, and the eventual revamping of the Ontario Medical system, and in particular the management of those on wait lists. 5) In addition, 11 people died according to the following link! http://www.manpc.mb.ca/02092004.htm The review of the cardiac care program, done by Edmonton heart surgeon Dr. Arvind Koshal was prompted after 11 people died while waiting for cardiac surgery in the province 6) In addition, 50 people died according to the following link out of 8000 in the study group. This report is much more statistical for those so inclined (frtwz). http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/167/11/1233 The risks of waiting for cardiac catheterization: a prospective study In this prospective registry of over 8000 patients referred for cardiac catheterization in 1998-2000 in the Central-South Region of Ontario, the median waiting time was 6 days for inpatients and 60 days for outpatients. Only 37% of patients received the procedure within the time requested by the referring physician. The overall incidence of major cardiac events was 1.4%, with 50 deaths during a median wait of 27 days. In a retrospective study of 871 patients in Manitoba referred for cardiac catheterization in 1981-1982, the incidence rates of cardiac arrest, acute MI, death and emergency admission during a mean waiting time of 4.2 weeks were 0.5%, 0.9%, 0.4%, and 3.7% respectively KMAN, I never saw a post by rick saying that people are dying because the wait list/line some how rises up and kills them, or bores them to death, or however else a person would become a mortality statistic because their name is on the wait list/line which caused the death. I have seen where rick said that people in Canada have died while their name is on the wait list for a particular test or procedure. The key words being "because, and while." You only in this prior post have expanded your question to include the "because" part of the statement, unless you can show me date and time of a previous post by you where you clearly use the word because, in the context of your claim that people are not dying because their name is on a wait list/line! In your request to me previously when you ask me to vote, you also requested me to certify whether rick had, or had not supported his claim that people were dying while on the wait list/lines. I have provided the above links, and the links I posted previously. Unless you were playing sematical games with list/line and because/while, then I believe you owe rick a public apology, as well as the rest of us whose time you have been twiddling with. If you are unable to suck up and apologize, then you are the one playing nutty weasel, and I leave you to play in the sandbox with yourself, unless rick chooses to come torment you longer. In that case, you deserve everything he dishes out. In addition I would have to seriously determine to consider your future posts as trash, and not worth the time to entertain anything you have to say. He has you in Check, you can't Castle, since you have moved your Rooks, your out of pawns, Bishops, Knights, Queen, and it is Checkmate time! I have played enough Chess to know the feeling, but you are better to go down in dignity, and play again, than to cheat, and noone will play with you after that! TnT |
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#9
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in article , Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/1/05 10:56 PM: KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... KMAN wrote: ...snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I deleted it. Has he proven it? Yes, he provided evidence, and there was other evidence available! How has he PROVEN it. Anyone can "provide evidence" that is not the same as proving something, Tinkerntom. For example, your participation here in this newsgroup is something I would provide as evidence that you are suffering from mental health problems. But as I am sure you will agree, it doesn't prove it. For example, did a coroner's inquiry say "Person X died while waiting for health care, and if the health care system had not responded so slowly, she'd still be alive?" Yes, read about Diane Gorsuch below! That fact that a person was on a waiting list for something and died doesn't mean that caused the death. He never claimed that! If so show me Date and Time of rick's post! I am to tired to search any longer myself, having read and reread probably 100 less than inspiring epistles by you two. Sigh. Well what would be the point of claiming that someone died while they were on a waiting list but the fact that they were waiting was not related to the cause of death!?!?!!?? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? Yes, ask and answered previously and below! How has he proven it? Can you point me to an objective report (such as a coroner's report or inquiry) that says "Person X died because they were on a waiting list and their death was preventable if they had not been on that waiting list" Please note (in case not obvious) this means that it was the waiting that caused them to die. Now you are changing the question, rick never claimed this. He claimed that people died while their name was on a waiting list, waiting for a test or procedure that could have saved their life. That's fine. Point me to any objective report that says someone died because they were waiting for treatment that woudl have saved their life. They still might have lost their life, even if they had the procedure, because these were seriously ill individuals with life threatening illness, usually cardiac or ontology, but that is a different issue entirely! No, it isn't. Before your deleted it, did you read it? Your promise was posted as follows; Feb 22, 7:03 am "Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology." Sigh. I am not a scumbag like rick. I make a formal and public apology. The question, although badly worded, was worded by yours truly, and, as worded,the requested burden has been met. Sadly, the intended purpose of asking such a question - to combat bizarre mythology being propogated about Canadian health care and to try to bring some focus to wild unsubstiated generalizations - has been even more widly derailed by rick's deceptive tactics that have focused mainly on ad hominem attacks and unreferenced accusations. The Canadian health care system is excellent, and what some of the articles you quoted show is that the provincial and federal governments (and more importantly the general populace) see it as a top priority and are determined to keep standards high. |
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#10
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KMAN says:
=================== Sadly, the intended purpose of asking such a question - to combat bizarre mythology being propogated about Canadian health care and to try to bring some focus to wild unsubstiated generalizations - has been even more widly derailed by rick's deceptive tactics that have focused mainly on ad hominem attacks and unreferenced accusations. ================= Absolutely correct on all counts KMAN. frtzw906 |
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