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in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 2/28/05 8:01 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote: in article , Scott Weiser at wrote on 2/27/05 5:15 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote: KMAN says: ================ There's no way that even a gun nut really believes that a community without guns is going to have more gun deaths than a community with guns. Right? =============== I think you're being overly optimistic. Indeed. The problem with this utopian ideal is that it is functionally impossible, anywhere in the world, to have a community without guns. That being the case, the argument is fallacious at its core. There are lots of communities in the world where no one has a gun. And amazingly, no one gets shot there! Prove it. Show me one community that you can certify does not have a gun in it, and then show me how you can prevent a gun from being brought into that community from outside. I never said some whackjob like yourself couldn't bring a gun into a place with no guns. |
in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 2/28/05 8:03 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 2/28/05 12:39 AM: KMAN wrote: in article , Scott Weiser at wrote on 2/27/05 5:15 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote: KMAN says: ================ There's no way that even a gun nut really believes that a community without guns is going to have more gun deaths than a community with guns. Right? =============== I think you're being overly optimistic. Indeed. The problem with this utopian ideal is that it is functionally impossible, anywhere in the world, to have a community without guns. That being the case, the argument is fallacious at its core. There are lots of communities in the world where no one has a gun. And amazingly, no one gets shot there! Could you give me a short list so that I can understand what type of communities you are speaking of? Thanks, TnT Howsabout the Amish? Can you certify that there are no guns in Amish communities? Can you prevent me from taking a gun into an Amish community? No, but as I understand the Amish would rather throw themselves in front of your bullets until you run out of ammo than become a gun culture themselves. And frankly I don't think a lot of Amish are getting shot - by internal shooters or external shooters. |
"Scott Weiser" wrote in message ... Screw the UN. We don't need its support or its blessing, much less its permission. Hmmm, you sound like Saddam Hussein. Funny, that. --riverman |
"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 7:11 PM: "Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 26-Feb-2005, "rick" wrote: Try again - there was nothing in that link that said Canadians are dying in waiting lines. Put up or shut up, dickhead. ================= Yes, there was. I see you don't lie any better than the other buffoons... Two sites provided unsubstantiated claims that people are dying in waiting lines. Try providing one that substantiates that claim. The third one states: "Claims about patients dying because of waiting too long cannot be confirmed or denied from current research and information." You still haven't posted a link to prove your ridiculous claim. ============================= Again, that you don't like the messenger doen't mean the facts are false. That YOU believe they are ubsubstantiated means nothing. Like kman, if you weren't so afraid of the data you could look for yourself. It's out there. I let kman look for himself, and you now, because the first site was too 'right-wing' the next was too 'union'. If the sites I provided are wrong, it should be easy then for you to find refutation of the data. Hasn't been done yet. The union article did not reference any evidence. It was just as dishonest as you are. ================ Provide sites that refute their contentions, liar. But at least the union has a reason to be that way (to get more money for their members) whereas you are just a scumbag. ================= And you're still a proven liar... |
"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 6:49 PM: snip Is there a coroner's report that says Mr X. died because he was waiting? ===================== Read the sites fool. As you know, patient info is not released. There are stories about health care issues in the media all the time. Something as serious as someone dying while waiting for care would definitely make the front page. ================== It has before fool. You're just too stupid, and too big a liar to look them up. Plus, the Canadian health care system has been voted the most secretive, non-responsive group by Canadian journalists. I guess that doesn't say much for our spy agency. ===================== LOL What spy agency would that be, fool? We're talking about your own media blasting your own medical care system. Too bad you're too stupid to understand that, eh liar? How can one crappy article by a union looking for money be considered evidence? ================ Why are you relying then on what I posted. Go get the info yourself. Try any nimber of other sources, universities, union, Canadian medical journal... The info does not exist. If someone died waiting for health care it would be a major scandal with an inquest and a coroner's report. ========================== Then you'd better start reading them fool. Continuing to lie about it just prove that much more how desperate you are in your chest-thumping. The type of trash you are quoting is nothing but political posturing by groups using weasel words (just like you). ====================== Really? Then you should be able to find canadian medical journal articles that refute those claims easily, eh liar. Opps, the Canadian medical journal supports the other position, imagine that, eh liar? |
"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 7:06 PM: "rick" wrote in message ink.net... "KMAN" wrote in message snippage... Or are you going to be consistent and be a liar and a coward on this issue as well? ==================== Anything you open your mouth about, like Canadians never waiting for treatment. I never said that. Every health care system requires that people wait. ========================== Yes, you did liar. Do try to keep up with your own spews, dolt. What part of your claim: "...No one is waiting for treatment..." don't you undersatnd? You said it fool, 2/20/2005 Big lie there fool... Never said it. Prove that I did. ================ See above fool. You made the claim, liar. Why none of your pithy spews here, fool? Finally realixed how stupid you really are, and how much you lie? Post the entire quote, and reference it, weasel. ============================ "...No one is waiting for treatment..." That's is a quote by you fool. feb 20, 2005. That you are still too stupid to fully use your computer is no surprise, liar. |
"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 6:52 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message .net... "KMAN" wrote in message . .. snip... If you are using cars as a justification for assault weapons, then you are comparing the two, fool. LOL. ========================== No fool. It is you that is trying to justify something based on what YOU determine to be a need. You failed. You brought up cars, not me. ====================== No, you brought up the "need" of an object being the determination whether or not people should have them. You lost, again, and now have you resort to your ignorant spews... You brought up cars. Check. =============== LOL STill as dense and stupid as ever I see, eh liar? Nope. You brought up cars. Check. ====================== No So you didn't bring up cars? ======================== Nice bit of dishonesty there fool. So you didn't bring up cars? ======================= You didn't bring up need as the basis for owning anything, liar? Here, let me restore your dishonesty again, liar.. "No, you brought up the "need" of an object being the determination whether or not people should have them. You lost, again, and now have you resort to your ignorant spews... checkmate, proven liar..." |
"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 7:06 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message .net... snippage... Why did you dishonestly delete the part about the lies you made about wait lines that I proved you made? Didn't like seeing your stupidity again? restore start Name one thing. Please quote the alleged lie, and provide proof that it is a lie. =========================== That Canadians don't wait for treatment in your health care system. You did not quote me. ====================== Yes, I did. see other posts for today... Here, want to see it again? "...No one is waiting for treatment..." You need to quote without the "... and ..." and you also need to provide a link to the message so it can be verified. What a scumbag you are! ================ There was no "and" fool. You made that statemnet. Too abd you're a proven liar, eh? YOU made the statement. Now you're claiming you can't find it? You really are a loser, aren't you, liar? restore end Post the entire quote. Why did you need to delete the beginning and end? Weasel. ====================== "...No one is waiting for treatment..." Why are you concerned about whole quotes while you dishonestly delete whole ones, fool? Unlike you, my cite does not change any meaning of what you said, liar. You lied. You know it, I know it, and now you're trying to duck, liar. |
"rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 7:11 PM: "Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 26-Feb-2005, "rick" wrote: Try again - there was nothing in that link that said Canadians are dying in waiting lines. Put up or shut up, dickhead. ================= Yes, there was. I see you don't lie any better than the other buffoons... Two sites provided unsubstantiated claims that people are dying in waiting lines. Try providing one that substantiates that claim. The third one states: "Claims about patients dying because of waiting too long cannot be confirmed or denied from current research and information." You still haven't posted a link to prove your ridiculous claim. ============================= Again, that you don't like the messenger doen't mean the facts are false. That YOU believe they are ubsubstantiated means nothing. Like kman, if you weren't so afraid of the data you could look for yourself. It's out there. I let kman look for himself, and you now, because the first site was too 'right-wing' the next was too 'union'. If the sites I provided are wrong, it should be easy then for you to find refutation of the data. Hasn't been done yet. The union article did not reference any evidence. It was just as dishonest as you are. ================ Provide sites that refute their contentions, liar. There are no sites available to refute something that is based only in imagination. There's no facts or evidence to challenge. |
"rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 6:49 PM: snip Is there a coroner's report that says Mr X. died because he was waiting? ===================== Read the sites fool. As you know, patient info is not released. There are stories about health care issues in the media all the time. Something as serious as someone dying while waiting for care would definitely make the front page. ================== It has before fool. Never. Prove it. |
"rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 7:06 PM: "rick" wrote in message ink.net... "KMAN" wrote in message snippage... Or are you going to be consistent and be a liar and a coward on this issue as well? ==================== Anything you open your mouth about, like Canadians never waiting for treatment. I never said that. Every health care system requires that people wait. ========================== Yes, you did liar. Do try to keep up with your own spews, dolt. What part of your claim: "...No one is waiting for treatment..." don't you undersatnd? You said it fool, 2/20/2005 Big lie there fool... Never said it. Prove that I did. ================ See above fool. You made the claim, liar. Why none of your pithy spews here, fool? Finally realixed how stupid you really are, and how much you lie? Post the entire quote, and reference it, weasel. ============================ "...No one is waiting for treatment..." That's is a quote by you fool. feb 20, 2005. That you are still too stupid to fully use your computer is no surprise, liar. Post the entire quote. |
"rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 6:52 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message .net... "KMAN" wrote in message . .. snip... If you are using cars as a justification for assault weapons, then you are comparing the two, fool. LOL. ========================== No fool. It is you that is trying to justify something based on what YOU determine to be a need. You failed. You brought up cars, not me. ====================== No, you brought up the "need" of an object being the determination whether or not people should have them. You lost, again, and now have you resort to your ignorant spews... You brought up cars. Check. =============== LOL STill as dense and stupid as ever I see, eh liar? Nope. You brought up cars. Check. ====================== No So you didn't bring up cars? ======================== Nice bit of dishonesty there fool. So you didn't bring up cars? ======================= You didn't bring up need as the basis for owning anything, liar? Here, let me restore your dishonesty again, liar.. "No, you brought up the "need" of an object being the determination whether or not people should have them. You lost, again, and now have you resort to your ignorant spews... checkmate, proven liar..." What is the need for assault weapons to the general public? It's a valid question. They are only useful for spraying bullets. Why else do you need them? In response to this YOU brought up the fact that people get killed by cars. But cars have many other valid and valuable purposes. But you don't want to address that, even though YOU brought it up. Scum. |
"rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 7:06 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message .net... snippage... Why did you dishonestly delete the part about the lies you made about wait lines that I proved you made? Didn't like seeing your stupidity again? restore start Name one thing. Please quote the alleged lie, and provide proof that it is a lie. =========================== That Canadians don't wait for treatment in your health care system. You did not quote me. ====================== Yes, I did. see other posts for today... Here, want to see it again? "...No one is waiting for treatment..." You need to quote without the "... and ..." and you also need to provide a link to the message so it can be verified. What a scumbag you are! ================ There was no "and" fool. You made that statemnet. Too abd you're a proven liar, eh? YOU made the statement. Now you're claiming you can't find it? You really are a loser, aren't you, liar? restore end Post the entire quote. Why did you need to delete the beginning and end? Weasel. ====================== "...No one is waiting for treatment..." Why are you concerned about whole quotes while you dishonestly delete whole ones, fool? Provide the entire quote. Scum. |
Scott says:
==================== You offer anti-capitalist propaganda from Communist China about "income disparity" as evidence? Are you not aware that this is but thinly veiled justification for taking rich Chinese out and putting a bullet in the back of their heads because they have presumed to make a profit in a Communist/Socialist society? You're going to have to do MUCH better than that. ============= I suggest that your reaction to info from China is an over-reaction. Any self-respecting communist is turning over in his grave at the sight of what is happening in China today. China may be many things -- totalitarian to start -- but it is hardly communist. It may have considerable vestiges of communism but they are vanishing at a rapid rate. The victims of that move are just so much trash to be discarded. These victims would never know they are in a country that is supposedly communist. What is happening in China can best be compared to England in 1850 (and the Chinese peasants are the Irish of the year 2005). Scott, don't let the name of the country put you off. Right now the relationship between the capitalists and the government borders on a love-in. So, fair enough, reject my source re poverty and crime, but please acquaint yourself with what is going on in China. It is hardly the "red" Chine of a foregone era. frtzw906 |
Weiser on poverty - crime causality:
====================== I don't dispute that there is some causal link, I dispute that it is THE causal link to the exclusion of all others. ======================== I think we're on the way to some kind of agreement. Like you, I'm not inclined to claim that there is ONE or THE causal link. Where we likely still disagree is over the relative magnitudes of the myriad causes of crime. The data I've seen, plus personal observations and experiences lead me to the conclusion that poverty is a significant factor in crime (both absolute and relative poverty). Look about major urban centers around the globe: is crime not generally more likely to occur in poorer ghettos? When break-in occur in wealthier neighborhoods, aren't the criminals likely to have come from poorer neighborhoods? Why are crime rates in aboriginal communities generally higher than in non-aboriginal communities? Why are North American natives significantly over-represented in Canada's prison population? Again, I'll agree with you that there is no ONE answer, but I'll venture to say that relative poverty plays a huge role. And I'm not sure the ownership of guns (or not) would change any of what I've noted. frtzw906 |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com... Weiser on poverty - crime causality: ====================== I don't dispute that there is some causal link, I dispute that it is THE causal link to the exclusion of all others. ======================== I think we're on the way to some kind of agreement. Like you, I'm not inclined to claim that there is ONE or THE causal link. Where we likely still disagree is over the relative magnitudes of the myriad causes of crime. The data I've seen, plus personal observations and experiences lead me to the conclusion that poverty is a significant factor in crime (both absolute and relative poverty). Look about major urban centers around the globe: is crime not generally more likely to occur in poorer ghettos? When break-in occur in wealthier neighborhoods, aren't the criminals likely to have come from poorer neighborhoods? Why are crime rates in aboriginal communities generally higher than in non-aboriginal communities? Why are North American natives significantly over-represented in Canada's prison population? Again, I'll agree with you that there is no ONE answer, but I'll venture to say that relative poverty plays a huge role. And I'm not sure the ownership of guns (or not) would change any of what I've noted. frtzw906 A pretty good exploration of this subject: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...63/ai_n6142201 |
KMAN wrote: ....snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I have reviewed ricks evidence, and included some notes, and additional links below. Since he encouraged you to look up additional links in order to refute his claim, and claimed for himself that there were other supporting links, I believe the links I have included would represent a sample of some of the possible links for both of you. I did not include links for organ donation since any donation represented the death of the donator, and would have no meaning in this discussion. I also did not include list of people on routine procedure list that happened to die, but not as a result of the expected and waited for procedure. Primarily this restricted me to cardiac and ontolgy list where the procedure was a life saving procedure, and waiting could have direct life changing ramifications. Some of the links represent particular special interest groups with and ax to grind, and any position they take on an issue should be understood and interpreted accordingly. Various political, national, and academic groups are represented. The first three represent ricks links, and I would specifically point out the quote from #3 Univ of Toronto regardings "claims can not be specifically confirmed or denied", but this is due to lack of data. I do not know whether more data has become available since that time, however there are now many and various conclusions. #7 specifically refers to Diane Gorsuch dying while waiting excessively on a list. Which would support richs claim, and indicate that KMAN owes rick an apology, since KMAN said "show me one person." Lastly I would highlight #12 and echo the last comment, "I think people can draw their own conclusions from the degree of difficulty we're having in dealing with this particular problem right now." The format of this forum is to present rudimentry ideas with minimal support, a subject as complex as this one can only be hacked! Be careful not to get caught on the chopping block! To say that people have died because they are on the list, is different from saying they they died while on the list. Some have definitely died while on the list. No one seems to deny that there are problems in the Canadian Medical System. These problems may be systemic of socialize medicine, and there is a growing dissatisfaction with a call to privatization, though that is not a panacea either. There are various solutions offered, with various drawbacks. More money for medical. More Doctors, or longer wait lists, which gets back to this thread. Longer wait lists would likely result in more people dying while on those wait lists. In the mean time there have been at least 1, and as many as 141 mortalities documented in a study for a particular year, and others implied by study, so when do we hear your apology? TnT 1) http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm editorial by National Union of public and general employees "This suggests that hundreds of people may be dying from what is quite simply under-funding of the system," 2) http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html editorial by CATO Institute referring to Fraiser Inst. "Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News, about 10,000 doctors left Canada in the 1990s. Compounding that exodus is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Miss Houston, Ontario has turned to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It is "creating" 369 new nurse practitioner positions to take up the doctor shortage." 3) http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf from Paper prepared for the Atkinson Foundation; from report prepared for report to Health Canada in 1998. pg 8 "Claims about patients dying because of waiting too long cannot be confirmed or denied from current research and information. This is a part of the sorry state of wait list information in Canada. Even simple statistics such as death from different procedures, or deaths of patients on different lists, are simply not available." 4) http://www.ices.on.ca/webpage.cfm?si...category_id=49 Analysis of deaths while waiting for cardiac surgery among 29,293 consecutive patients in Ontario, Canada, 141 deaths 5) http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/162/6/775 Benchmarking the vital risk of waiting for coronary artery bypass surgery in Ontario Interpretation: Patients awaiting CABG in Ontario are at a much greater risk of death than the general population. However, when compared with thousands of other patients living with coronary artery disease, they are at similar or decreased vital risk 6) http://www.blupete.com/Commentary/MedSystemCanFailureOct'00.htm "The Reason for the Failure Of the Canadian Medical System." Yet, when it comes to medical services, we shun the market: we adopt a system that has brought about ruin to entire countries, a system (central, absolute, and top down) which has never worked and which cannot work. 7) http://winnipeg.cbc.ca/regional/serv...tories20030522 The Tories have called for a review of the province's cardiac care system since Diane Gorsuch died while waiting for surgery back in February. 8) http://www.news-medical.net/?keyword...%20Association Canadians are unhappy with the current Medicare system 9) http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/77/3/769 CONCLUSIONS: Long waiting lists for coronary artery bypass grafting are associated with considerable mortality. The risk of death increases significantly with waiting time. Sex, unstable angina, perioperative risk, impaired left ventricular function, and concomitant aortic valve disease are independent risk factors and should be considered at triage. 10) http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...4/suppl_1/I-92 In summary, a peer-reviewed standardized approach to risk-stratified queue assignment of cardiac surgery patients resulted in a 0.7% waiting-list mortality and an 8.7% rate of upgrades, the majority of which required hospitalization for unstable symptoms. The majority of these adverse events occurred early. A marked increase in surgical capacity would be required to effectively deal with these events. Given our utilization of a peer-review conference to validate indication for surgical intervention, surgical capacity could be increased where economically feasible, allowing reduction in waiting time without fear of rampant overuse of cardiac surgical procedures. Prolonged waiting time was not associated with adverse surgical outcomes among patients undergoing cardiac surgery, and in the urgent queue, earlier intervention was associated with worse outcomes. 11) http://www.cp.org/english/online/ful...D052306AU.html The 58-year-old woman had been awaiting bypass surgery for more than two years. She was the third to die since last July while awaiting surgery. 12) http://canada.medbroadcast.com/healt...nnel_ id=1006 OTTAWA (CP) - Canada's public health system, ignored when it works well, is attracting attention now that its fragility has been highlighted by the SARS outbreak. Public health is a term used to cover many activities designed to prevent illness from occurring, rather than on treating illness after it happens. She said it's an excellent organization with dedicated people, but the municipal tax base is not sufficient to deal with a crisis like SARS. Elliott Halparin, president of the Ontario Medical Association, said the entire health system, not just the prevention side, has been underfunded for years. "This (the SARS outbreak) is going to make everybody realize just how stretched we really were." Halparin said Ontario already had a big problem with waiting lists, but the situation will be exacerbated by the SARS outbreak, which has led to the closure of some hospitals. He is not convinced that the problem will be remedied by federal money promised as part of the recent first ministers health accord. It's still not clear to him how much money there will be, and how it will be directed. He said the biggest problem in medicare is health human resource shortages - not enough doctors, nurses or technologists - and crumbling infrastructure. "Those are the real fundamental issues that need to be addressed. What SARS is doing for us right now is it's creating incredible stress, personal stress." Halparin declined to speculate whether the system could cope with another crisis at the same time as SARS, or whether it could deal with a full-blown pandemic with a high mortality rate. "I think people can draw their own conclusions from the degree of difficulty we're having in dealing with this particular problem right now." [x] Yes [] No Thank you for your patience. Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! |
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... KMAN wrote: ...snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I deleted it. Has he proven it? For example, did a coroner's inquiry say "Person X died while waiting for health care, and if the health care system had not responded so slowly, she'd still be alive?" That fact that a person was on a waiting list for something and died doesn't mean that caused the death. Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? Please note (in case not obvious) this means that it was the waiting that caused them to die. |
Thanks. Very interesting: "it is our contention that stable employment
represents an important institution of social control that serves as a disincentive to crime, all things being equal"... That's consistent with my observation. frtzw906 |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks. Very interesting: "it is our contention that stable employment represents an important institution of social control that serves as a disincentive to crime, all things being equal"... That's consistent with my observation. frtzw906 Yeah, it's a bit of a dry piece of writing, but well organized. It would by my observation that all persons who lack "meaningful occupation" are less likely to be involved in crime, all other things being equal. And less likely to develop mental health issues, and to experience other types of problems as well. |
TnT, thanks for the links. I'll look at them as I find time (damned
waiting lists, eh?). Anyway, at random, I looked at one site. I didn't need to look long on this one to find, well, bullsit. Here's what the guy says in a note at the bottom: "Because people are effectively denied timely and effective medical services, they flock to the "quacks" who will see them, same day. Thus, the government run medical system not only has dried up real medicine, it has resulted in a pernicious system of nostrum-mongery" [from: http://www.blupete.com/Commentary/MedSystemCanFailureOct'00.htm] Now I don't even need data to know that the guy grabbed this from up his ass! If I had the time, I'm sure I could find data showing that the use of quacks is no greater in Canada than in the USA. I appreciate that some of your sources may be quite good. This guy, however, was a quack! frtzw906 |
TnT:
http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/77/3/769 That would be SWEDEN, not Canada referenced in this study. frtzw906 |
TnT:
http://canada.medbroadcast.com/healt...nnel_ id=1006 pertains to "public health"... as in health inspections of restaurants.... it says nothing at all about people dying in lines.... Jeez, TnT, I'm willing to look at your sources, but at least determine before hand that they're relevant.... so far you're not doing well: a quack, Sweden, and health inspections during a SARS crisis... frtzw906 |
TnT, another source says: "Death and upgrades while the patients were
waiting tended to occur early in the queuing process, and prolonged waiting was not associated with worse surgical outcomes." http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...4/suppl_1/I-92 Now what does that say to you? "Early in the queuing process" -- what exactly does that mean to you, "early", I mean. Even the American system has "early" in the queuing process. EVERY system has lines. Thus every system has EARLY. OK, so deaths occur EARLY. Thus, the death was NOT the result of being in a pro-longed line-up. Death occurred EARLY. NOW PLEASE NOTE THE CONCLUDING SENTENCE: "prolonged waiting was not associated with worse surgical outcomes." So, it looks like you are supprting KMAN, eh? frtzw906 |
TnT, your are clealy trying to make KMAN's case aren't you? Did you
even READ these sources? "Interpretation: Patients awaiting CABG in Ontario are at a much greater risk of death than the general population. However, when compared with thousands of other patients living with coronary artery disease, they are at similar or decreased vital risk." from http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/162/6/775 Duh! where are people dying in line-ups here? It says: "at a much greater risk of death than the general population"... well, hardly surprising, right? THEY'RE FRIGGIN' ILL!!!!! OF course they're at greater risk! BUT, "at similar or decreased vital risk." when compared to others who are also ill. KMAN must be loving these! frtzw906 |
Tink, you didn't read this one did you: "Analysis of deaths while
waiting for cardiac surgery among 29,293 consecutive patients in Ontario, Canada" If you read it, you'll find out what it really says. Tink, I feel like a teacher, determining that you cheated on your homework. None of this stuff is worth, if you'll pardon the expression, "a Tinker's damn." frtzw906 |
"Nisarel" wrote in message news:1109710275.4afc671f1ff5a6c12866bef2abaabd3a@t eranews... "BCITORGB" wrote: Why are North American natives significantly over-represented in Canada's prison population? It's hard for them to afford a decent lawyer. Actually it's because they can't afford to emigrate to the better quality American and Continental prisons. Wolfgang who realizes that this does little to help explain why there are so many nahuatl in mexican prisons......basques in spanish prisons.....walloons in french prisons......etc. |
Wolfgang, are there really many walloons in french prisons? Is it
because their particular dialect is so hard on delicate french ears? frtzw906 |
"BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... Wolfgang, are there really many walloons in french prisons? I really have no idea. I just assumed there would be more there than in Canadian prisons. Is itbecause their particular dialect is so hard on delicate french ears? I'd guess it's for much the same reason that there so many Zulus in South African prisons. Wolfgang |
I'd guess it's for much the same reason that there so many Zulus in
South African prisons. So it's settled then: it's the dialect. Cheers, frtzw906 |
On 28-Feb-2005, "rick" wrote:
That YOU believe they are ubsubstantiated means nothing. I believe they are unsubstantiated because they are! Post a link to a reference that substantiates these claims. If the sites I provided are wrong, it should be easy then for you to find refutation of the data. Hasn't been done yet. _You_ provided that, idiot! I requote: "Claims about patients dying because of waiting too long cannot be confirmed or denied from current research and information." Try again, dickhead. Post something of substance instead of a lot of crap. Mike |
Tink, you cite the Fraser Institute: "Adding to Canada's medical
problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News, about 10,000 doctors left Canada in the 1990s. Compounding that exodus is the drop in medical school graduates." I'll not repeat what I've already said about the Fraser Institute. But let's deal with the "exodus" of doctors. That's a dramatic turn of phrase. Shall we say that, notwithstanding the protestations of Scott and rick, since this is a free country, physicians come and go. Some do leave. So what? What is more important is the overall change in the population of doctors. There are dozens of doctors in my neighborhood: mostly Canadian trained but also many from South Africa and Ireland. So, unless the Fraser Institute is willing to tell us the rate of change in the entire population of doctors, "exodus" is just so much editorializing. I'd also like to see the magnitude of the apparent "drop in medical school graduates." There ARE WAITING LISTS to get into Canada's medical schools, so the drop in graduates can't be due to lack of applicants. To the best of my knowledge, no Canadian university has dropped its medical school (although a few newer universities have gotten into medical education), so I can't see the apparent reduced number of graduates being a function of fewer schools. Could it be that some universities have reduced the number of seats available? Could be, I don't know. But that's hardly going to be significant. So, perhaps, this apparent "drop in medical school graduates." amounts to 5, 6, maybe 10 graduates. Unless the Fraser Institute tells us, we'll never know. Tink, whatever happened to reading with a critical eye? frtzw906 |
"KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 7:11 PM: "Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 26-Feb-2005, "rick" wrote: Try again - there was nothing in that link that said Canadians are dying in waiting lines. Put up or shut up, dickhead. ================= Yes, there was. I see you don't lie any better than the other buffoons... Two sites provided unsubstantiated claims that people are dying in waiting lines. Try providing one that substantiates that claim. The third one states: "Claims about patients dying because of waiting too long cannot be confirmed or denied from current research and information." You still haven't posted a link to prove your ridiculous claim. ============================= Again, that you don't like the messenger doen't mean the facts are false. That YOU believe they are ubsubstantiated means nothing. Like kman, if you weren't so afraid of the data you could look for yourself. It's out there. I let kman look for himself, and you now, because the first site was too 'right-wing' the next was too 'union'. If the sites I provided are wrong, it should be easy then for you to find refutation of the data. Hasn't been done yet. The union article did not reference any evidence. It was just as dishonest as you are. ================ Provide sites that refute their contentions, liar. There are no sites available to refute something that is based only in imagination. There's no facts or evidence to challenge. ================= The facts are there, fool. Too bad for you, eh? |
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 28-Feb-2005, "rick" wrote: That YOU believe they are ubsubstantiated means nothing. I believe they are unsubstantiated because they are! Post a link to a reference that substantiates these claims. ===================== They are substantiated by the sites I provided fool. try reading and researching for yourself, or are you too afarid, like kamn is? If the sites I provided are wrong, it should be easy then for you to find refutation of the data. Hasn't been done yet. _You_ provided that, idiot! I requote: "Claims about patients dying because of waiting too long cannot be confirmed or denied from current research and information." Try again, dickhead. Post something of substance instead of a lot of crap. ===================== Nope, that doesn't deny they exist. Other site claim otherwise, like canadian medical journals. Do try to keep up, fool. Mike |
"KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 6:49 PM: snip Is there a coroner's report that says Mr X. died because he was waiting? ===================== Read the sites fool. As you know, patient info is not released. There are stories about health care issues in the media all the time. Something as serious as someone dying while waiting for care would definitely make the front page. ================== It has before fool. Never. Prove it. ======================= Yes, fool. Try some researchof you own. You made the claim. |
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