"John H" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:14:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think that mainstream America is ready for a liberal. Liberals
downplay those values and morals that most of the heartland live by.


Nah....that's not true. Liberals don't try to legislate morals, or preach
about them. We get in your face about some stuff, but not about other
stuff.
The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is which areas they
acknowledge as "None of anybody's business".

It's 100% based on the opinions of human beings, not natural law or
deities.
Therefore, it's fair play to meddle until the next person is elected. If
I
were elected, there'd be a law saying that if your car leaks oil all over
parking lots and you don't fix it within 30 days of getting a ticket,
someone comes to your house and breaks your kneecaps, and all five
fingers
on one hand. But that's just me.


That law's been on the books in Germany for a long time!

John H

I like it! Seriously....it washes into the storm drains and ends up in MY
fishing water. My mechanic says 99% of the leakers he sees need a $1.50
washer around the oil pan drain plug.

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:33:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



That law's been on the books in Germany for a long time!

John H

I like it! Seriously....it washes into the storm drains and ends up in MY
fishing water. My mechanic says 99% of the leakers he sees need a $1.50
washer around the oil pan drain plug.

But you fail to consider the poor people, who routinely drive 20 year
old cars, who can't afford to replace the front main seal in the
engine, or the valve cover gaskets.

See, this is what I mean about the duplicity of the left. You guys
become single focussed when you adopt a cause. But you fail to
consider the interactivity that results when your "vision" is applied
in practice.

What is more important to you? Helping the poor stay afloat, or being
cents wise and dollar foolish when it comes to little environmental
issues?

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:33:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



That law's been on the books in Germany for a long time!

John H

I like it! Seriously....it washes into the storm drains and ends up in MY
fishing water. My mechanic says 99% of the leakers he sees need a $1.50
washer around the oil pan drain plug.

But you fail to consider the poor people, who routinely drive 20 year
old cars, who can't afford to replace the front main seal in the
engine, or the valve cover gaskets.

See, this is what I mean about the duplicity of the left. You guys
become single focussed when you adopt a cause. But you fail to
consider the interactivity that results when your "vision" is applied
in practice.

What is more important to you? Helping the poor stay afloat, or being
cents wise and dollar foolish when it comes to little environmental
issues?

Dave, what is it with you today? Are you on cold medication or something? I
said my mechanic finds that 99% of leakers need a washer that costs as much
as one and a half lottery tickets. Even low-income people often change their
oil. The fault lies with the mechanics who don't give a damn about the
quality of their work. Joe the mechanic puts a new washer on every car, at
every oil change.

I fully understand that some cars have much more serious problems, and that
people sometimes can't afford the repairs. I was in that situation at one
point in my life. But if you read what I wrote, it's clear that a nasty
automotive problem could be virtually eliminated for next to nothing. Want
another example? Like many astute guys, I can tell when someone's tires are
low on air. So, at my office or apartment, if I have a pen & paper handy,
I'll stick a note on someone's windshield saying something like "Hey! Your
tires are REALLY low on air. Get to the pump before you get hurt". Why? It
snows here. For tires that need 32 psi, being 5 pounds low can make them
behave as if they were bald. I don't want to see people get hurt. Sometimes,
someone sticks the note on the front door of the apt entrance, or the tenant
directory of the office building saying "Thanks to whomever - they were down
to 18 pounds!"

What does this achieve? /For either free, or 50 cents (the cost of some air
pumps), maybe someone didn't get into an accident.

ThiMk, Dayve.

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:09:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:33:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



That law's been on the books in Germany for a long time!

John H

I like it! Seriously....it washes into the storm drains and ends up in MY
fishing water. My mechanic says 99% of the leakers he sees need a $1.50
washer around the oil pan drain plug.

But you fail to consider the poor people, who routinely drive 20 year
old cars, who can't afford to replace the front main seal in the
engine, or the valve cover gaskets.

See, this is what I mean about the duplicity of the left. You guys
become single focussed when you adopt a cause. But you fail to
consider the interactivity that results when your "vision" is applied
in practice.

What is more important to you? Helping the poor stay afloat, or being
cents wise and dollar foolish when it comes to little environmental
issues?

Dave, what is it with you today? Are you on cold medication or something? I
said my mechanic finds that 99% of leakers need a washer that costs as much
as one and a half lottery tickets.

I don't believe that. Every car that I've ever owned or worked on
(which has been many) which leaked, did so through aging seals or
gaskets. I have NEVER had a leaky oil drain plug, and I'd be quite
surprised that they are that big of an issue. Even if there were no
washer on the plug, the amount of oil seepage around the (tight)
threads of the plug would amount to what, a drop or two a week?


Even low-income people often change their
oil.

Many have no other economical choice.


The fault lies with the mechanics who don't give a damn about the
quality of their work. Joe the mechanic puts a new washer on every car, at
every oil change.

I put 23,000 miles a year on my Geo. I change my oil every 3500 miles.
I've had the car for 4 years now. You figure out how many times I've
changed it. I've NEVER changed the washer on the plug, and it doesn't
leak a drop.



I fully understand that some cars have much more serious problems, and that
people sometimes can't afford the repairs. I was in that situation at one
point in my life.

Then you should be empathetic with those who still are.

But if you read what I wrote, it's clear that a nasty
automotive problem could be virtually eliminated for next to nothing.

And I challenge that your example is next to a non-issue.


Want
another example? Like many astute guys, I can tell when someone's tires are
low on air. So, at my office or apartment, if I have a pen & paper handy,
I'll stick a note on someone's windshield saying something like "Hey! Your
tires are REALLY low on air. Get to the pump before you get hurt". Why? It
snows here. For tires that need 32 psi, being 5 pounds low can make them
behave as if they were bald.

Actually, many people recommend lowering tire pressure in the snow, as
it can increase traction. 32 Lbs in the tire is generally lowered to
around 25 Lbs. Me, I just take my 4X4 truck to work, if I even decide
to go.

But you bring up a good related point and that is that you can lose up
to 2 MPG from severely under inflated tires. You guys who like to
compute and extrapolate statistics can really appreciate the
significance of keeping tires inflated.




I don't want to see people get hurt. Sometimes,
someone sticks the note on the front door of the apt entrance, or the tenant
directory of the office building saying "Thanks to whomever - they were down
to 18 pounds!"

What does this achieve? /For either free, or 50 cents (the cost of some air
pumps), maybe someone didn't get into an accident.

I appreciate your sense of compassion, but any responsible driver
should check their tires, at least visually, every time they go out.
You should have to be their "Guardian Angel".


Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

What is more important to you? Helping the poor stay afloat, or being
cents wise and dollar foolish when it comes to little environmental
issues?

Dave, what is it with you today? Are you on cold medication or something?
I
said my mechanic finds that 99% of leakers need a washer that costs as
much
as one and a half lottery tickets.

I don't believe that. Every car that I've ever owned or worked on
(which has been many) which leaked, did so through aging seals or
gaskets. I have NEVER had a leaky oil drain plug, and I'd be quite
surprised that they are that big of an issue. Even if there were no
washer on the plug, the amount of oil seepage around the (tight)
threads of the plug would amount to what, a drop or two a week?

Mrs Hall must be feeling frisky this week, because you are obviously not
getting enough sleep. I said "99% of leakers are leaking from the oil plug".
I did NOT say "99% of all cars".

If Joe the mechanic said "99% of the cars we see need an air filter, wipers,
oxygen sensor, radiator flush and new spare tire, at every visit", his
suggestions would be suspect. But he's talking about a $1.50 part. This is
the same mechanic who has told me at least 20 times in 15 years "I don't
care WHAT you think, you do NOT need a new insert part name here. If you
insist, we'll install it, but you don't need it. You're not even sure how
much longer you're keeping the car".


Even low-income people often change their
oil.

Many have no other economical choice.

Cripes...I have to explain everything. The statement was meant to include
people who pay to have it changed AND people who do it themselves.


But if you read what I wrote, it's clear that a nasty
automotive problem could be virtually eliminated for next to nothing.

And I challenge that your example is next to a non-issue.

That's not surprising. You have no interest in your environment. You're
probably the type of monkey who, if camping, burns all the plastic garbage
in the campfire, right?


Want
another example? Like many astute guys, I can tell when someone's tires
are
low on air. So, at my office or apartment, if I have a pen & paper handy,
I'll stick a note on someone's windshield saying something like "Hey!
Your
tires are REALLY low on air. Get to the pump before you get hurt". Why?
It
snows here. For tires that need 32 psi, being 5 pounds low can make them
behave as if they were bald.

Actually, many people recommend lowering tire pressure in the snow, as
it can increase traction. 32 Lbs in the tire is generally lowered to
around 25 Lbs. Me, I just take my 4X4 truck to work, if I even decide
to go.

This is fine for people who are systematic about checking it. You're talking
about a conscious decision. But, next time you're walking through a parking
lot, take a look at some tires. The NY Dept of Transportation sometimes runs
radio ads saying they have stats which indicate something like 50% of
drivers never check their tires. Couple this with the fact that full-service
gas stations are practically non-existent. You understand the significance
of that last statement, right?

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:41:28 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

What is more important to you? Helping the poor stay afloat, or being
cents wise and dollar foolish when it comes to little environmental
issues?

Dave, what is it with you today? Are you on cold medication or something?
I
said my mechanic finds that 99% of leakers need a washer that costs as
much
as one and a half lottery tickets.

I don't believe that. Every car that I've ever owned or worked on
(which has been many) which leaked, did so through aging seals or
gaskets. I have NEVER had a leaky oil drain plug, and I'd be quite
surprised that they are that big of an issue. Even if there were no
washer on the plug, the amount of oil seepage around the (tight)
threads of the plug would amount to what, a drop or two a week?

Mrs Hall must be feeling frisky this week, because you are obviously not
getting enough sleep. I said "99% of leakers are leaking from the oil plug".
I did NOT say "99% of all cars".

I know that. But taking my own personal experience, which extends to
my own 20-something cars (and boats), plus those of other people which
I've worked on, and I have NEVER seen a leaking oil plug. I HAVE seen
leaks, and they come from other places. So what was that about 99% of
leakers?


Many have no other economical choice.

Cripes...I have to explain everything.

No, you don't.


And I challenge that your example is next to a non-issue.

That's not surprising. You have no interest in your environment. You're
probably the type of monkey who, if camping, burns all the plastic garbage
in the campfire, right?

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I do have experience with cars
and based on that experience, I disagree with your conclusion.

It's statements like yours which get picked up by the marginally
educated. People actually buy into this nonsense, and get the wrong
opinion about pollution and who the biggest offenders really are. It's
not the guy who changes his own oil, or the fisherman with the 9.9 hp
2-stroke outboard.

Actually, many people recommend lowering tire pressure in the snow, as
it can increase traction. 32 Lbs in the tire is generally lowered to
around 25 Lbs. Me, I just take my 4X4 truck to work, if I even decide
to go.

This is fine for people who are systematic about checking it. You're talking
about a conscious decision.

Don't you believe that driving involves a certain amount of
responsibility toward safety? Shouldn't checking your tires be a part
of this responsibility?


Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


And I challenge that your example is next to a non-issue.

Not really, Dave. Here's why:

1) With some exceptions, industry has done a pretty good job of cleaning up
its act. When it comes to eliminating/minimizing effluents (the crap that
comes out of a manufacturing facility), many of the ideas which have become
standard were ideas thought of by people who work at the companies
themselves, and have been adopted as standards due to their effectiveness.

Now...don't respond yet - read this:

2) In most places, the water that runs into street drains is not treated. It
goes directly into a drainage basin or a naturally occurring body of water.
Here, for instance, that would be Lake Ontario. If it goes into a drainage
basin, it ends up in the ground, and the next stop may be the water table
itself.

Wait....don't respond yet.

Almost anywhere in this country, guess who's responsible for most of the
chemical additions to surface water runoff?


That's not surprising. You have no interest in your environment. You're
probably the type of monkey who, if camping, burns all the plastic
garbage
in the campfire, right?

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I do have experience with cars
and based on that experience, I disagree with your conclusion.

It's statements like yours which get picked up by the marginally
educated. People actually buy into this nonsense, and get the wrong
opinion about pollution and who the biggest offenders really are. It's
not the guy who changes his own oil, or the fisherman with the 9.9 hp
2-stroke outboard.

What harm comes from suggesting that mechanics or car owners try to achieve
zero leakage, if they can do it with a washer, or by wiping up the 1/2 quart
that they spill all over the suspension crossmembers and the ground? Some
driver ed teachers take the kids under the hood and teach them a little
about maintenance, so they know how to check their fluids. If the teacher
was anal about leaky oil, and told kids to investigate and fix leaks ASAP
when they saw them, would you consider that an intrusion into "family
values", like unauthorized sex education? :-)



Actually, many people recommend lowering tire pressure in the snow, as
it can increase traction. 32 Lbs in the tire is generally lowered to
around 25 Lbs. Me, I just take my 4X4 truck to work, if I even decide
to go.

This is fine for people who are systematic about checking it. You're
talking
about a conscious decision.

Don't you believe that driving involves a certain amount of
responsibility toward safety? Shouldn't checking your tires be a part
of this responsibility?

I didn't say people shouldn't check it. I said that a huge percentage do
NOT. You can wish for a fairytale world, but it doesn't exist. I told you to
glance at tires in parking lots. Do it.

Your example of lowering your tire pressure is fine, but you made a
conscious decision and experimented with it. This is not the same as the
random situation that many people live with, where their tires are down to
16 or 20 lbs, and they didn't find out until they had a blowout, or
hydroplaned on a wet road, or wore out a set of tires in 18k miles.