So, how the hell do the Brazilians get 7 bucks an hour !!!!?????

(I think I got a buck twenty-five)

:-) We're somewhere around the same general age bracket, I think, Eishboch.
When we were kids you could buy a real nice lunch for $1.25- cheeseburger,
fries, shake, etc, right?

Today, that same load of steaming fat and cholesterol will set you back about
$7. The pay's the same, only the numbers are different.

"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:10:59 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
http://letsriot.com/stuff/new_map.jpg


Eisboch

I love it...thanks...

Canada is looking attractive as a safe haven for skipping out on the
failing fascist United States...

He he: history repeats itself...

My ancestors on my Mother's side were United Empire Loyalists - fled the
US when they didn't like the politics there. Now there's a flood coming
north after the election (and not just for our flu vaccine!)

Lloyd Sumpter, Canadian.

LLoyd, those of us on the right think of the current administration as a
protector of our rights. Under Democrats (only in the last 50 year or so)
we loose rights.

When I hear us called the fascist state I have to remember that YOU can't
own a gun, pay more of your income in taxes to the government and have us
protecting your southern border against illegal immigration.

Let me try this another way, let's assume you owned a construction company
who needed unskilled labor for short periods of time. Your needs would
vary, from needing no unskilled labor to needing 50 short term unskilled
employees. Do you think society/government should mandate that you keep
these people on the payroll for the full 52 weeks and pay them a respectable
income, even if their services is not needed?

Of course not.



Society/government also mandates that we just increase the minimum wages so
that all an employees earn a living wage.
You build the rest of your argument around this false premise, so there is
little else to respond to. The government does not mandate that employers pay a
"living wage", or enough to meet all the expenses any family could run up by
having a dozen kids or living a lavish lifestyle. The purpose of a minimum wage
is to assign at least that much responsibility for the survival and support of
an employee, measured in dollars, to the employer rather than to the
taxpayer-funded social safety net.

"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:10:59 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:


He he: history repeats itself...

My ancestors on my Mother's side were United Empire Loyalists - fled the
US when they didn't like the politics there. Now there's a flood coming
north after the election (and not just for our flu vaccine!)

Lloyd Sumpter, Canadian.

You too Lloyd? My mothers mother's people were New York Dutch who left to
escape the ungrateful rabble in the 1770s. I wonder if the family could
claim a bit of New York real estate as repreations?

That is not a liberal philosophy, that is Capitalism at its best.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Eisboch,
Gould showed us that when it is his company or his money, he is a brutal
Capitalist.

It's written somewhere that a liberal must be poor?

You and Eisboch both fail to see the fundamental liberalism in the hiring
philosophy. An employer has an obligation to create an atmosphere of
opportunity, where employees can grow and prosper.
This serves fiscal and social ends at the same time. Judge a business not
merely on how well the owner prospers, but how the employees grow and
prosper
as well.



I thought I
was a Capitalist, but I would have keep an employee if was able to do the
job he was paid to do.

Sounds like a government job. That sort of attitude will put a private
company
in the tank, especially a small one.

The guy merely doing the job he was hired to do was either mishired, (as
he has
no capacity to grow and therefore help the company at an increased level
of
responsibility), is undermotivated, or works in an environment that is not
interested in the future and well-being of the employee and does not
provide
opportunity and training for advancement.
Those are all management failures. Show me an enterprise filled with folks
merely doing "the job I was hired to do" and we'll see a stagnant or
failing
business.

I would not fire him or leave him in the roles of
unemployable just because I did not believe he could move up in the
corporation.

Ever hire anybody? That process always involves a decision to leave people
in
the ranks of the unemployed. Do you recommend that when a firm has a job
opening it should be filled with the first warm body to appear with an
application?
Failure to do so will probably leave somebody among the ranks of the
unemployed.

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:34:21 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 07:38:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

~~ snippity snip ~~

Remember the French language wars of the early '70s? French good,
English bad? Then they discovered that the France French they'd been
speaking for the past 200 or so years isn't French at all but an
amalgation of Basque, Spanish and English leading to purifying the
language by, and I loved this bit, sending French teachers to rural
Louisiana to learn "true" French.

Now that's pretty black and white in terms of culture isn't it? :)

Actually, it is both black and white and nuanced. Think about it.

I have - there is no nuance in a dead language that can't grow and
expand with the addition of new "foreign" words. It's just not
possible.

Anything that "defiles" the language is purged in favor of
non-inclusion of terms from other languages and cultures. That's not
nuance - that's pure simple arrogance and, if you wanted to use the
term, bigotry.

And it serves as an allegory for right-wing evangelical Christianity.

So you agree that French is a dead language and is bigoted then?

I think way to much emphasis is placed on nuance as being an
intellectual trait. Nuance certainly does have it's place in
philosophy, psychiatry/psychology and other medical professions that
are not based on pure science, but as a practical trait, a factor in
daily decision making, it's counter productive.

Well, we differ. Life to me is full of nuance.

Give me an example of what you consider nuance in the decision making
process.

All the best,

Tom
--------------

"What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...
is there a computer terminal in the day room of
some looney bin somewhere?"

Bilgeman - circa 2004

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:46:28 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 07:38:01 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:


There are a number of attractive places in the world where the Bushtapo
isn't...I suspect there will be a significant and increasing outflow of
some of our really best and brightest to those locations as the United
States of Jesus slides back into the primordial ooze.

Geez Harry, we aren't there yet. While I found the election results
*very* discouraging, I have faith in the resilience of this great country.
We will survive this administration. Also, don't forget, that since
Eisenhower, the Republicans haven't been able to run this country without
shooting themselves. I'm sure with all the zealots, the DeLays, history
will repeat itself.

My feeling is that we have so alienated the rest of the world that when
the next wave of terrorist attacks hits us, the consensus will be: those
arrogant Americans deserved it. And you know what...with the tens of
thousands of absolutely innocent civilians Bush is killing with aplomb,
it would be hard to argue against that opinion.

I've got a large piece of undeveloped land in Northern Virginia I've
owned for a very long time. I was going to develop it into 18-20 lots
for single-family estate houses. I'm thinking of selling it off now,
paying my capital gains taxes, and placing the proceeds offshore in a
safe, non-belligerent country.

I have no desire to live in a theocracy.

Then don't.

Later,

Tom

That is not a liberal philosophy, that is Capitalism at its best.

Why do you feel liberalism and capitalism are incompatible?

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:48:56 -0500, Eisboch
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 05 Nov 2004 16:35:34 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:


Gould,
Do you have something against unskilled Mexicans who are willing to work for
minimum wage?

No.

I have a problem with guys who scream for
a society with overwhelming enforcement of most laws, but who personally profit
by entering into illegal employment contracts
with people so incredibly poor that *anything*, even $2-3/hour, is better than
stavation.


Just a quickie here - I've been watching the thread and have to jump
in.

Back when I had a working stable on the property, I couldn't find high
school kids for $11.00 an hour to muck out the stalls, do the hay,
feed and exercise the animals, etc. Just farm labor four days a week
and two hours on weekends.

I went to the local labor emporium and got some Brazilians who did it
for $7.00/hr. I didn't even ask - I just said to the guy at the
employment desk I needed four people, explained what I wanted and
there they were.

Now, when I have to get the hay off the field or some other task like
stacking wood for the winter, I just make the call and presto, more
people to help at the state minimum which I believe now is $7.25.

I can't pay them more if I wanted!!!

Tom, I lived in Woodbridge, CT for a couple of years while in high
school and used to muck stalls and feed horses after school at a race
horse stable in Orange.

So, how the hell do the Brazilians get 7 bucks an hour !!!!?????

That's was the State of CT job assigner said. That's what I paid 'em.

(I think I got a buck twenty-five)

HAH!! :)

When I was in high school, I had a job on Saturday's working for a
local TV store. $1.00 a day and all the electronics theory I could
eat. Oh, and he threw in a sandwich for lunch. :) During the
summers, I worked for a Captain who had a 50 foot Bertram as his mate
and kept the job at the TV store on Friday and Saturday. My Senior
year in high school was an interesting one as I eventually ran the TV
shop on Friday/Saturday and was allowed to take the Bertram out for a
run every once in a while all by my onsies.

(also where I learned how much I dislike horses)

Well, this whole thing started when the kids wanted horses. I had the
room and eventually I purchased a cedar log post 'n beam in Bolton,
had it transported here - it was eventually destined to garage my
antique car, truck and bass boat once the horses left. That expanded
into a small business for the girls when they were in high school as
they boarded some horses for friends and the like. When college came
along, I slowly dispersed the horses until there were no more horses.

That's where I learned to dislike horse owners. I still have one who
owes me $1,600.

PS: The barn is now a garage/wood shop.

Later,

Tom
-----------
"Angling may be said to be so
like the mathematics that it
can never be fully learnt..."

Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:22:12 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:34:21 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 07:38:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

~~ snippity snip ~~

Remember the French language wars of the early '70s? French good,
English bad? Then they discovered that the France French they'd been
speaking for the past 200 or so years isn't French at all but an
amalgation of Basque, Spanish and English leading to purifying the
language by, and I loved this bit, sending French teachers to rural
Louisiana to learn "true" French.

Now that's pretty black and white in terms of culture isn't it? :)

Actually, it is both black and white and nuanced. Think about it.

I have - there is no nuance in a dead language that can't grow and
expand with the addition of new "foreign" words. It's just not
possible.

Gotcha. You're thinking black and white and no nuance in terms of the
"fixated" culture. I'm thinking of the nuances in thinking brought about
by the search itself.

Wha?

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Later,

Tom

On 05 Nov 2004 06:33:36 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

What should we as a society do for those people who do not have the desire
or the ability to move up?

Employment is not a contract between a worker and "society", but rather between
a worker and an employer.

What society should do is prevent the unequal status of the
applicant/supplicant desperate for work and the potential employer with the job
from becoming an abusive situation. The lower the wages paid to an employee,
the greater the dependence that employee will have on the public trough.
Mini-wage sets a realistic standard that says, "you will pay at least this
pittance, to offset at least some of the living expenses and keep your people
out of the trough as much as possible." It shouldn't be the taxpayer's
responsibility to provide virtually all the basic needs for a family just so an
employer can get by with paying a predatory wage.

What should we do when an honest hard working immigrant (either legal or
illegal) wants to work picking produce or digging ditches.

See above. Asking society to provde food, shelter, and other basic services to
an employee so that you, the employer, can work that person on the double cheap
is just plain wrong. It's just a surely a raid on the public treasury for the
benefit of a private individual (the employer) as the stereotypical welfare
woman cranking out 15 kids to stay on the dole most of her life.


In construction
and farming, 2 or 3 levels promotion is middle management. If we don't
believe they can move up to middle management we just don't hire them?

You don't oridnarily hire a lot of permanent workers in farming. When you have
a crop to pick, you take all willing and capable hands. You don't worry about
30 days down the road, harvest will be over by then.

When you do hire those willing and capable hands, it should be done legally and
at a rate equal to or above the state minimum.

In your car dealership when you hired a janitor, what jobs were you planning
to promote him to?

Janitors were outside contractors. I would imagine a beginning janitor would be
able to work up to crew chief, or what not, before long- but I never direclty
hired janitors.

Menial laborers were typically "lot boys."
Good ones could work up to slightly less menial jobs in the shop, take some
technical classes and buy some tools, and eventually make a decent middle class
income as a technician. Those proving unworthy of promotion typically didn't
last long- chronic absenteeism, showing up to drunk to work, burning a phat one
out behind the detail shop, etc. "Next!"


What do we do for all these people who can not meet your requirements for
employment.

We don't do anything for them. No need. There are plenty of guys who believe
that hiring as cheaply as possible is the only way to go, and they can't be too
picky about what they get. The guys who don't want to pay anything and those
who don't want to work very hard deserve each other, and they do seem to find
one another more often than not.

All we do is be sure that the employer doesn't take such extreme advantage of
his superior economic power that his sick, starving, homeless workers create a
huge drain on everybody else.

An employer with a growing business is always in a position to provide
opportunities to bright, energetic, talented people who will grow along with
the business and make everybody in sight richer along the way. It isn't the
employers responsibilty to waste those opportunities on the dull, the
undermotivated, or the unqualified. The culls should go to the guys who run a
business so badly that a worker isn't empowered to produce enough wealth for
both himself and his employer.

Ever notice that it is usually the same guys who call for the elimination of
minimum wage laws who also call for an end to all public assistance for food,
shelter, or medical care?

You might ask some of them what should be done with the working poor.....

"better they should die, and decrease the surplus population" Ebenezer
Scrooge, "A Christmas Carol", by Charles Dickens

Anyone lacking a close up perspective might enjoy reading a book called
"Nickled and Dimed, on Not Getting By in America."


Chuck, do you think increasing the minimum wage will slow down the
illegal immigration across our southern border? Or, will it just
become worse? If the situation is so bad, why do we get three million
illegals a year?

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:49:11 +0100, Jelle
wrote:

Snipped

And another brilliant argument! You are right because you know you are
right! And you know that it is right to show off your patriotism, and to
make your neighbors do the same. Did you do your marching 'for freedom'
yet?

[...please learn to quote...]

Jelle, keep watching the European news networks, especially the
French, and believe everything they say. You'll go far and gain a lot
of respect, from Harry and b'asskisser.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:41:29 -0500, "Netsock" wrote:


"JimH" wrote in message
...
As you just did?

Posting off topic...

Feeding the trolls...

Contributing nothing about boating...

Strike three...you're out!

*ploink*

Hope I'm still out!

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On 05 Nov 2004 16:54:24 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Eisboch,
Gould showed us that when it is his company or his money, he is a brutal
Capitalist.

It's written somewhere that a liberal must be poor?

You and Eisboch both fail to see the fundamental liberalism in the hiring
philosophy. An employer has an obligation to create an atmosphere of
opportunity, where employees can grow and prosper.
This serves fiscal and social ends at the same time. Judge a business not
merely on how well the owner prospers, but how the employees grow and prosper
as well.



I thought I
was a Capitalist, but I would have keep an employee if was able to do the
job he was paid to do.

Sounds like a government job. That sort of attitude will put a private company
in the tank, especially a small one.

The guy merely doing the job he was hired to do was either mishired, (as he has
no capacity to grow and therefore help the company at an increased level of
responsibility), is undermotivated, or works in an environment that is not
interested in the future and well-being of the employee and does not provide
opportunity and training for advancement.
Those are all management failures. Show me an enterprise filled with folks
merely doing "the job I was hired to do" and we'll see a stagnant or failing
business.

I would not fire him or leave him in the roles of
unemployable just because I did not believe he could move up in the
corporation.

Ever hire anybody? That process always involves a decision to leave people in
the ranks of the unemployed. Do you recommend that when a firm has a job
opening it should be filled with the first warm body to appear with an
application?
Failure to do so will probably leave somebody among the ranks of the
unemployed.


Or employed in a lower position somewhere. Much hiring occurs at
levels other than entry level. Entry level jobs are just that. A
person shouldn't be making babies if he/she has an entry level
position. The minimum wage was never supposed to care for a family of
four or more.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:27:05 -0500, thunder
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 07:38:01 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:


There are a number of attractive places in the world where the Bushtapo
isn't...I suspect there will be a significant and increasing outflow of
some of our really best and brightest to those locations as the United
States of Jesus slides back into the primordial ooze.

Geez Harry, we aren't there yet. While I found the election results
*very* discouraging, I have faith in the resilience of this great country.
We will survive this administration. Also, don't forget, that since
Eisenhower, the Republicans haven't been able to run this country without
shooting themselves. I'm sure with all the zealots, the DeLays, history
will repeat itself.

What do they call the 10,000 liberals moving to Canada?

A good start. Lead the procession, both of you!

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:13:13 -0500, JohnH wrote:


What do they call the 10,000 liberals moving to Canada?

A good start. Lead the procession, both of you!

Said the brown shirt to the Jew.

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:28:32 -0500, thunder
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:13:13 -0500, JohnH wrote:


What do they call the 10,000 liberals moving to Canada?

A good start. Lead the procession, both of you!

Said the brown shirt to the Jew.

I've been to Canada and to Dachau. No comparison.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Chuck, do you think increasing the minimum wage will slow down the
illegal immigration across our southern border? Or, will it just
become worse? If the situation is so bad, why do we get three million
illegals a year?

John H

I believe an employer should follow all the applicable laws regarding hiring
and employment, and that nobody should be expected to work for less than the
legal minimum. The minimum wage is a state's right issue, (over and above the
$5 something federal requirement), so nobody can say that across the board the
miniwage has to be increased.

An individual working 40 hours a week ought to be able to, in the spirit of
fairness,
live an an adequate shelter, enjoy adequate nutrition, and obtain the most
fundamental basic necessities of life. Those necessities don't include a new
car,
(or maybe even any car) a 35" plasma TV, etc.Nobody realistically expects the
people on the bottom rung to be awarded a
luxurious lifestyle- but if a person is offering his life's energy to an
employer it shouldn't fall to society at large to get that person off the
street and fed at least a subsistence diet.

Our $7 + miniwage around here might sound like a lot of money to somebody
living where rents are still $350 a month- but it takes some creative arranging
to stretch $14,000 a year in an economy where marginally liveable apartments
are
$700-1000 a month. Different states and local economies have different costs
and pay scales.

Gould,

You showed that you are interested in doing whatever is necessary to make a
profit, to make your company profitable and to maximize your growth. You
wanted to maximize the return to the owners at any costs, including firing
people who were not able to do the job at the level you demanded of them.

What if a corporation did exactly what you recommended for your smaller
company? What if a corporation found it could it could hire better workers
for less than their current employees? Should they fire those workers or
continue to pay higher salaries to workers who are not as productive as the
new work force?

What if a school district fired a teacher because here students were not
performing well on their standardized tests. Since the students are the
future of our country, shouldn't we hold them up to the same standards as
you employed in your car business?




"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
That is not a liberal philosophy, that is Capitalism at its best.

Why do you feel liberalism and capitalism are incompatible?

Netsock reminds me of Harry, continually telling everyone who he has in his
bozo bin.


"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:41:29 -0500, "Netsock" wrote:


"JimH" wrote in message
...
As you just did?

Posting off topic...

Feeding the trolls...

Contributing nothing about boating...

Strike three...you're out!

*ploink*

Hope I'm still out!

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

thunder wrote:

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:13:13 -0500, JohnH wrote:

What do they call the 10,000 liberals moving to Canada?

A good start. Lead the procession, both of you!

Said the brown shirt to the Jew.


Interesting how twisted one's perspective can get.

krause has publically wished death on several individuals who disagreed
with him.

-- Charlie

Dr Dr wrote:

You showed that you are interested in doing whatever is necessary to make a
profit, to make your company profitable and to maximize your growth. You
wanted to maximize the return to the owners at any costs, including firing
people who were not able to do the job at the level you demanded of them.

Spin it any way you want. That's not what I said, and any reasonable person can
plainly see that. A person trolling for an argument might pretend I said I
would "maximize return at any cost", but that's inconsistent with the facts.
Nothing more to discuss in your first paragraph.

What if a corporation did exactly what you recommended for your smaller
company?

Hired people with a capacity to grow into more responsible positions and
encouraged them to do so?

What if a corporation found it could it could hire better workers
for less than their current employees? Should they fire those workers or
continue to pay higher salaries to workers who are not as productive as the
new work force?

They should start with firing some supervisors. If inexperienced people off the
street can be more productive and more efficient than those already on the job,
something is being badly mismanaged.

Now many large corporations are willing to take a chance that the cheapest
available labor....(and what's cheaper than moving the entire company
overseas?)....might be able to do the job as well or even better than the
existing work force- but there is no way to *prove* that new workers will be
more efficient and lower cost per unit output than the existing employees.

What if a school district fired a teacher because here students were not
performing well on their standardized tests. Since the students are the
future of our country, shouldn't we hold them up to the same standards as
you employed in your car business?


It depends *why* the students aren't performing well on the standardized tests.
Did the district reject the last 5 school bonds in a row, so that the average
class size is now 50 students? How are the students doing compared to those in
similar classes in the same district? It may the district, not the individual
teacher, that is failing to perform well. There is no easy answer to your
hypothetical question as there is a lack of information. If you developed
enough information to phrase the question properly- the answer would be obvious
before you asked it.

"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:25:07 +0000, Don White wrote:

Yeah...and the "proper" Vancouver ;)

Lloyd

Your area get swindled out of land also? Look at a map of Northern Maine.
The top third of the state should be part of the Maritimes. Those 'Yankee
peddlers' must have hoodwinked the British into giving that up.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Spin it any way you want. That's not what I said, and any reasonable person
can
plainly see that. A person trolling for an argument might pretend I said I
would "maximize return at any cost", but that's inconsistent with the
facts.
Nothing more to discuss in your first paragraph.

Gould, I am not trolling for an argument, I was trying to get you to
understand the constraints that are put on corporations in a global
marketplace. I spun your management style in the same manner you like to
spin it when you are talking about corporations and big business. You made
decisions that were good for your car dealership. You did not want the
government to come in and tell you who you could hire or who you can fire.
When you talk about big business you always see them as evil, the same way I
"spun" your wise management style into an evil manager. You were not evil,
and you were probably successful and many people benefited from your
decisions. If not, you would have been out of work.

Now many large corporations are willing to take a chance that the cheapest
available labor....(and what's cheaper than moving the entire company
overseas?)....might be able to do the job as well or even better than the
existing work force- but there is no way to *prove* that new workers will
be
more efficient and lower cost per unit output than the existing employees.

Remember when you stated your job as a manager was not to take care of the
unemployed, or those who could not or would not do the job up to your
standards. It was not your job to give people a job, you job was to create
an enviroment where your company and employees could succeed. As your
company grew your employees could benefit. That is the goal of ever
successful corportation and small business. A company can always tell if
they made the correct decision. if your workers are more effiicient and
they have a lower costs per unit than your competitior, and the product
quality is competive or superior, you will sell more product. If you
utilize your capital and manpower in the most effective way, you will become
a stronger better company. You will be selling more widgets, be able to
employ more people, be able to promote more of those people and give the
consumer a better product. If you don't do that, you will lose market
share, lose stock holders equity, workers will lose their job and consumers
will have one less selection in the marketplace. Exactly the same concerns
you described when talking about the constraints on the small businessman.

It depends *why* the students aren't performing well on the standardized
tests.
Did the district reject the last 5 school bonds in a row, so that the
average
class size is now 50 students? How are the students doing compared to
those in
similar classes in the same district?

I mentioned this because I thought you believed in giving teachers tenure
and they should not be fired. Based upon your answer I think we agree,
school districts should be able to evaluate their teachers and fire those
who are not successful in teaching their students. Unfortunately in too
many school districts it is impossible to fire unqualified teachers. We
should bring the same management standards you used to create a successful
company, to creating a successful school system. .

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:29:55 GMT, "Dr. Dr. Smithers"
wrote:

Netsock reminds me of Harry, continually telling everyone who he has in his
bozo bin.


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:41:29 -0500, "Netsock" wrote:


"JimH" wrote in message
...
As you just did?

Posting off topic...

Feeding the trolls...

Contributing nothing about boating...

Strike three...you're out!

*ploink*

Hope I'm still out!

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!


You reckon it's an ego thing? Does he with the largest bozo bin win?

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On 05 Nov 2004 23:23:49 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Chuck, do you think increasing the minimum wage will slow down the
illegal immigration across our southern border? Or, will it just
become worse? If the situation is so bad, why do we get three million
illegals a year?

John H

I believe an employer should follow all the applicable laws regarding hiring
and employment, and that nobody should be expected to work for less than the
legal minimum. The minimum wage is a state's right issue, (over and above the
$5 something federal requirement), so nobody can say that across the board the
miniwage has to be increased.

An individual working 40 hours a week ought to be able to, in the spirit of
fairness,
live an an adequate shelter, enjoy adequate nutrition, and obtain the most
fundamental basic necessities of life. Those necessities don't include a new
car,
(or maybe even any car) a 35" plasma TV, etc.Nobody realistically expects the
people on the bottom rung to be awarded a
luxurious lifestyle- but if a person is offering his life's energy to an
employer it shouldn't fall to society at large to get that person off the
street and fed at least a subsistence diet.

Our $7 + miniwage around here might sound like a lot of money to somebody
living where rents are still $350 a month- but it takes some creative arranging
to stretch $14,000 a year in an economy where marginally liveable apartments
are
$700-1000 a month. Different states and local economies have different costs
and pay scales.


They could do like I did when I first started working, share an
apartment. That greatly reduces the rent expenditure.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 02:15:19 +0000, Don White wrote:


"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:25:07 +0000, Don White wrote:

Yeah...and the "proper" Vancouver ;)

Lloyd

Your area get swindled out of land also? Look at a map of Northern Maine.
The top third of the state should be part of the Maritimes. Those 'Yankee
peddlers' must have hoodwinked the British into giving that up.

Oh, yeah... Originally the border was going to be the Columbia River, so
we would have all of Washington (not to mention Pt Roberts!). Vancouver,
WA, was supposed to be the western HBC outpost. However, the US wanted
"54-40 or fight!". We settled on the 49th Parallel, except it takes a dive
south right after Pt Roberts so we get Vancouver Island (and the Gulf
Islands, but they get the San Juans - including the American AND British
parts of San Juan Island...)

Lloyd Sumpter,
Canadian

Around 11/7/2004 1:50 PM, Lloyd Sumpter wrote:

Oh, yeah... Originally the border was going to be the Columbia River, so
we would have all of Washington (not to mention Pt Roberts!). Vancouver,
WA, was supposed to be the western HBC outpost. However, the US wanted
"54-40 or fight!". We settled on the 49th Parallel, except it takes a dive
south right after Pt Roberts so we get Vancouver Island (and the Gulf
Islands, but they get the San Juans - including the American AND British
parts of San Juan Island...)


Ah, yes, the infamous Pig War. Amazing such a small, insignificant thing
could have such lasting consequences. :)

http://www.outwestnewspaper.com/pigwars.html

--
~/Garth - 1966 Glastron V-142 Skiflite: "Blue-Boat"
"There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats."
-Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:29:01 -0800, Garth Almgren
wrote:

Around 11/7/2004 1:50 PM, Lloyd Sumpter wrote:

Oh, yeah... Originally the border was going to be the Columbia River, so
we would have all of Washington (not to mention Pt Roberts!). Vancouver,
WA, was supposed to be the western HBC outpost. However, the US wanted
"54-40 or fight!". We settled on the 49th Parallel, except it takes a dive
south right after Pt Roberts so we get Vancouver Island (and the Gulf
Islands, but they get the San Juans - including the American AND British
parts of San Juan Island...)


Ah, yes, the infamous Pig War. Amazing such a small, insignificant thing
could have such lasting consequences. :)

http://www.outwestnewspaper.com/pigwars.html

Thanks for the URL. That was an interesting read.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:36:57 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Whether or not that figure is reasonable depends on what your source
of income is. If the best job you get there only pays $300/week, you
might have a problem.

It's all relative.

Dave


Probably best geared towards retirees with a reasonable pension..., the
almost wealthy who can show healthy income from investments.....or those who
could set up a business there.



Sort of the same principle as the New York exec who buys a first class
home on a private canal in Boca Raton Florida for less than what a
Manhattan suite would cost.....

But not too many people actually working in Florida could afford
them.....

Dave

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:18:48 -0500, Dave Hall
wrote:

But not too many people actually working in Florida could afford
them.....

============================

You'd be surprised. About 50% of my neighbors are working Floridians
and seem to be doing just fine. It all depends what you work at.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

Sort of the same principle as the New York exec who buys a first class
home on a private canal in Boca Raton Florida for less than what a
Manhattan suite would cost.....

But not too many people actually working in Florida could afford
them.....

Dave

We get a lot of that up here. Germans, Americans and Upper Canadians are
buying up a large chunk of the shoreline here at prices the locals can't
afford. Some people are afraid we'll resemble the Maine coastline in a few
years....large tracts of land owned by absentee owners who won't let locals
use traditional paths & beaches on the property.

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:38:06 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:18:48 -0500, Dave Hall
wrote:

But not too many people actually working in Florida could afford
them.....

============================

You'd be surprised. About 50% of my neighbors are working Floridians
and seem to be doing just fine. It all depends what you work at.

I would be surprised. When I was looking to move there 14 years ago,
there was generally anywhere from a 10 -25% reduction in salary from
what equivalent positions paid in the mid-atlantic area. With the
exception of the space coast (where I was looking) there wasn't much
in the way of electrical engineering or other technical positions.

I'm sure professionals like doctors, lawyers etc, still do alright.
But it seemed that the "middle class" jobs paid significantly less.

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:38:06 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:18:48 -0500, Dave Hall
wrote:

But not too many people actually working in Florida could afford
them.....

============================

You'd be surprised. About 50% of my neighbors are working Floridians
and seem to be doing just fine. It all depends what you work at.

I would be surprised. When I was looking to move there 14 years ago,
there was generally anywhere from a 10 -25% reduction in salary from
what equivalent positions paid in the mid-atlantic area. With the
exception of the space coast (where I was looking) there wasn't much
in the way of electrical engineering or other technical positions.

I'm sure professionals like doctors, lawyers etc, still do alright.
But it seemed that the "middle class" jobs paid significantly less.

Dave


But you have to balance the pay reduction with no state income tax, little
to no heating bills in the winter, and the lack of forst induced pothole in
the roads :-)

"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:38:06 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:18:48 -0500, Dave Hall
wrote:

But not too many people actually working in Florida could afford
them.....

============================

You'd be surprised. About 50% of my neighbors are working Floridians
and seem to be doing just fine. It all depends what you work at.

I would be surprised. When I was looking to move there 14 years ago,
there was generally anywhere from a 10 -25% reduction in salary from
what equivalent positions paid in the mid-atlantic area. With the
exception of the space coast (where I was looking) there wasn't much
in the way of electrical engineering or other technical positions.

I'm sure professionals like doctors, lawyers etc, still do alright.
But it seemed that the "middle class" jobs paid significantly less.

Dave


But you have to balance the pay reduction with no state income tax, little
to no heating bills in the winter, and the lack of forst induced pothole
in the roads :-)


And reduced chiropractor bills from not having to shovel that heavy wet
snow.

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:38:06 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:18:48 -0500, Dave Hall
wrote:

But not too many people actually working in Florida could afford
them.....

============================

You'd be surprised. About 50% of my neighbors are working Floridians
and seem to be doing just fine. It all depends what you work at.

I would be surprised. When I was looking to move there 14 years ago,
there was generally anywhere from a 10 -25% reduction in salary from
what equivalent positions paid in the mid-atlantic area. With the
exception of the space coast (where I was looking) there wasn't much
in the way of electrical engineering or other technical positions.

I'm sure professionals like doctors, lawyers etc, still do alright.
But it seemed that the "middle class" jobs paid significantly less.

Dave


But you have to balance the pay reduction with no state income tax,
little to no heating bills in the winter, and the lack of forst induced
pothole in the roads :-)


And reduced chiropractor bills from not having to shovel that heavy wet
snow.

Shovel? You have to be kidding........have one of those big assed self
propelled gas guzzling snow throwers :-)