"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
"Keenan Wellar"
I think it's the move towards puritanism that scares people.

I don't know where this came from, but sounds like someone has some
other unresolved issues. I have heard liberals blaming their loss on
everthing and everyone else than themselves, but I haven't heard this
one before. Soon we should maybe expect that it was some witches in
Salem!

I'm neither American nor a "liberal" (at least not in the American sense of
the word, although the precise American understanding of that word still
eludes me) but it comes from simple observation. The fact that 11 states
voted in favour of banning gay marriage, and the fact that there is clearly
a move afoot to return abortion to illegal status, are two clear indicators.
The Bush administration did indeed turn "homos" into the witches of the 21st
century and actually won power doing it.

Whenever liberalism manages to gain a toe-hold, it's slapped down in
the
next election cycle. Americans don't want a
liberal/progressive/socialist
country, period. Thank goodness for that!

Yeah! Who wants to be progressive! It's bad enough that black people are
free and women have the vote! Next thing you know poor people will be
accessing health care!

You put the emphasis on the wrong syllabis! It is not the
"progressive" part, but Liberal, and especially that which would end
in a socialist country, that is rejected by the good conservative
citizens of this great country.

How can homosexuals getting married have anything to do with socialism?!?!?

You set up a false dilemna, regarding free black, and women voting, as
if those issues are still an issue

Well, actually, many black people seem to feel that it is! Especially with
old white dudes hanging around the voting area waiting to "challenge" them!

then include poor people accessing
health care as being comparable. The first has to do with the rights
of all people, not determined by the Constitution, but acknowledged by
it.

If we choose to give health care to all, that is our choice, our
Constitutional right to choose. So far, the voters have not chosen to
do so, beyond Medicare, and other present Federal and State programs.
There is no Constitutional guarantee to the right to health care. All
are presented with the privilege of working for their own dreams, if
that includes health care, they can have it. There are many insurance
companies, and health care providers who would be more than willing to
take your money, and provide the best health care in the world.

Mm. Only y'all ain't born with equality of opportunity. But I spose that's
just some crackpot liberal thinkin' there eh?

If we were to say that everyone should have health care, why not,
everyone should have a car, a house, a house in the suburbs, or why
stop there. I think everyone should have a house in Aspen, or Malibu,
or Monterrey, and I think that Uncle Sam should give them whatever
else they want. And of course everyone should have a job where they
earn at least $50.00/hr. Now that sound pretty good. I think I should
run for the Presidency on that platform. Sounds sort of familiar in
fact, promise them everything, anything they want.

Y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

Luckily most voters realized that the above program is unacceptable,
if for no other reason, than who was going to pay for it? The promise
was that taxes would be raised on the rich. That works until there are
no more rich, and then they come after you and me, or at least me! No
thankyou!

LOL. Again, y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

Similiarly, enviro issues are presented in the same way. If we sneak
it under the radar, make enough distracting noise, noone will realize
the finacial costs of these programs. The problem, is that we have
fallen for this before, and noone was buying it this time. Especially
considering that for the last 30 or 40 years Nader and his crowd, have
been singing the same song, but tell us the problems remain. That is
why he was ignored this time more than ever before. The fact that
Kerry, gave lipservice, to pacify the eco-warriors, only proves that
they are easily distracted!

Uh. Whatever all that means. The environment IS the economy. It just ain't
rightly recognized as such by certain folk.

Nonsense! While it's definitely true that most Americans consume/waste
too
much, recycle too little and don't put environmental concerns above
issues
like values, security and economics, there is still enough concern to
prevent an environmental catastrophy. You watch, once the economy
recovers
fully, there will be a push toward stronger environmental policies. In
some ways it's sad, but environmentalism only comes to the forefront
when
we can afford it.

That perspective is sad indeed.

What is sad, is that we need you big hearted liberals to take care of
all the down and out, to protect the enviroment, to assure the rest of
us that we stay on the path, - and you have proven so ineffective!

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis Life, Live it!

OK, well, back to regular programming.

Hi again Keenan, I'll try to address issues you brought up in this
post

Your reference to Puritanism, seems to be rooted in the gay rights
issue. I wonder if you are "out" and feeling threatened, or is this
just a hypothetical discussion for you. Now maybe that is not a PC
question to ask, so feel free to ignore it if you choose.

Isn't choice great! The Puritans came here inorder to exercise free
choice, and in so doing, chose to live in a land where others chose
differently. However it is also a democratic land where the majority
rules, and the minority is protected from the tyranny of the majority,
by the courts. The Majority is currently identified as the moral
mojority, and so is opposed to the immoral minority. I am not saying
that this is true or right, just that it is reality.

The minority, now has the choice, of dealing with it, or slinking
away. I admire you that you are not slinking! That things are
difficult for you, no doubt! We were there for a long time, and only
recently have rallied the troops to take significant ground. Now is
not the time for us to get lazy either. We will keep pressing on, and
you can choose to get onboard or not. That is your choice!

Our choice is that we do not want to have Gay Marriages blighting the
landscape, nor wanton abortion polluting our collective conscious.


Regarding blacks feeling intimidated at the polling place, I feel that
is generally a bogus charge. There may be places this occurs, it is a
big country, but I am sure we would have heard more, if it was
rampant. But it sure sounds politically powerful. And there is the
core of the problem for Liberals. They keep trying to find some magic
bullet to propel themselves into power, without really having a viable
platform. Now that would be really hijacking the election, if they
could have pulled it off, like feeding bogus exit polls to their
sheep, which made them feel real good for awhile, but the let down was
a real bummer. Of course if you can blame it on some "old white
dudes," hey, what a coup. Keep on believeing this BS, if it makes you
feel better.

Mm. Only y'all ain't born with equality of opportunity. But I spose that's
just some crackpot liberal thinkin' there eh?


For a change, I think you got it right, sort of! We obviously are not
born with equal opportunity, but then that is not what the
Constitution is talking about. The Constitution says that we are all
born equal, and that there are certain inalienable rights. Health
care, or driving a Rolls, and living in Aspen, is not one of them. I
live in Colorado, but not Aspen. I drive a hardly rolls, and I have to
pay for my own health insurance. I have a black neighbor who has a
newer car, - a management job, that I expect provides insurance, and
both of us could go up to ski in Aspen. Ain't America great,
independent of our skin color, we can go any place we choose. The
only thing that really holds us back, is our own vision of who we are
and where we want to be!

Luckily most voters realized that the above program is unacceptable,
if for no other reason, than who was going to pay for it? The promise
was that taxes would be raised on the rich. That works until there are
no more rich, and then they come after you and me, or at least me! No
thankyou!

LOL. Again, y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

I am self-employed, which means I get to pay all my own taxes, and I
know how much I pay. I have paid a lot for a long time, and I am not
rich. I would not mind being rich, mind you, then I could maybe afford
to take a vacation or move up to Canada. But then I would spoil it for
you, and that luckily for you, is not a false dilemna.

Similiarly, enviro issues are presented in the same way. If we sneak
it under the radar, make enough distracting noise, noone will realize
the finacial costs of these programs. The problem, is that we have
fallen for this before, and noone was buying it this time. Especially
considering that for the last 30 or 40 years Nader and his crowd, have
been singing the same song, but tell us the problems remain. That is
why he was ignored this time more than ever before. The fact that
Kerry, gave lipservice, to pacify the eco-warriors, only proves that
they are easily distracted!

Uh. Whatever all that means. The environment IS the economy. It just ain't
rightly recognized as such by certain folk.

Clueless in Canada, the fact that you don't get what that means, only
shows how much out of contact you are with the issues that are
important to the majority of US voters. The environment is "not" the
economy, it is only a part of the economy. In a previous election, we
were told that "It is the economy, Stupid!" The Dems are still singing
the same song, but the band has moved on! The economy is always
important, it is just what the money is going to be spent on, and how,
that changes.


OK, well, back to regular programming.

And that is a big part of the problem, is that liberals have fallen
back on their regular programming that worked for them in the 70's,
failing to update their prime time offerings. Any TV station that did
that would not last from one season to the next, how is it that the
Dems think they can go for decades without changing, their song and
dance!

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Hi again Keenan, I'll try to address issues you brought up in this
post

Your reference to Puritanism, seems to be rooted in the gay rights
issue.

Also abortion. And censorsihp.

I wonder if you are "out" and feeling threatened, or is this
just a hypothetical discussion for you. Now maybe that is not a PC
question to ask, so feel free to ignore it if you choose.

As it happens, I am not gay, but hatred against gay people is not
"hypothetical" for me any more than racism against black people or unequal
pay for women is "hypothetical."

Isn't choice great! The Puritans came here inorder to exercise free
choice, and in so doing, chose to live in a land where others chose
differently. However it is also a democratic land where the majority
rules, and the minority is protected from the tyranny of the majority,
by the courts.

Much to the chagrin of George and friends who are furious that the courts
occasionally strike down some of their puritanical efforts. But a few
changes to the courts, and whammo, the powers of hate will have the
congress, the senate, the presidency, and the courts!

The Majority is currently identified as the moral
mojority, and so is opposed to the immoral minority. I am not saying
that this is true or right, just that it is reality.

Whatever that means.

The minority, now has the choice, of dealing with it, or slinking
away. I admire you that you are not slinking! That things are
difficult for you, no doubt! We were there for a long time, and only
recently have rallied the troops to take significant ground. Now is
not the time for us to get lazy either. We will keep pressing on, and
you can choose to get onboard or not. That is your choice!

Um. Half of your own country is not on board, and just about all of the rest
of the world is not on board. And you are not going to convince me to hate
people just because a lot of you have gotten your **** together with the
hatred of others as your focus.

Our choice is that we do not want to have Gay Marriages blighting the
landscape

What is your problem with gay marriages?

nor wanton abortion polluting our collective conscious.

But you are OK with young girls in the alley with coat hangers, right?

Will you find a way to deny rich people access to abortions too, or is this
another in your list of policies designed to advance hate against the less
fortunate.

Regarding blacks feeling intimidated at the polling place, I feel that
is generally a bogus charge.

Blacks feel intimidated at all sorts of places in America, the polling booth
certainly being one of the places where said intimidation is at its best.

There may be places this occurs, it is a
big country, but I am sure we would have heard more, if it was
rampant.

From who? Fox News!?!?

But it sure sounds politically powerful. And there is the
core of the problem for Liberals. They keep trying to find some magic
bullet to propel themselves into power, without really having a viable
platform. Now that would be really hijacking the election, if they
could have pulled it off, like feeding bogus exit polls to their
sheep, which made them feel real good for awhile, but the let down was
a real bummer. Of course if you can blame it on some "old white
dudes," hey, what a coup. Keep on believeing this BS, if it makes you
feel better.

No idea what you are talking about there, but you do realize that the
election was a rather close one, and that it is going to be difficult to
keep people in a state of perpetual fear, or even another four years? Even
Americans will get bored with the so-called "war on terror."

Mm. Only y'all ain't born with equality of opportunity. But I spose
that's
just some crackpot liberal thinkin' there eh?

For a change, I think you got it right, sort of! We obviously are not
born with equal opportunity

Praise geezus.

but then that is not what the
Constitution is talking about. The Constitution says that we are all
born equal

Then the Constitution is wrong. You might want to fix it. I think you fixed
up some other parts that were wrong. Like the value of a black person? That
sort of thing.

and that there are certain inalienable rights. Health
care, or driving a Rolls, and living in Aspen, is not one of them.

What about the right to put all your money offshore and not pay even as much
tax as the poorest person?

live in Colorado, but not Aspen. I drive a hardly rolls, and I have to
pay for my own health insurance. I have a black neighbor who has a
newer car, - a management job, that I expect provides insurance, and
both of us could go up to ski in Aspen. Ain't America great,
independent of our skin color, we can go any place we choose. The
only thing that really holds us back, is our own vision of who we are
and where we want to be!

Too put it bluntly, that's an idiotic oversimplification. Your kids, or the
kids born to your neighbour, are not going to have the same barriers to
success as some kid growing up in a **** poor neighbourhood where the police
are afraid to go and the school is a war zone. It's easy to have a nice
vision when you are starting from the top of the mountain.

Luckily most voters realized that the above program is unacceptable,
if for no other reason, than who was going to pay for it? The promise
was that taxes would be raised on the rich. That works until there are
no more rich, and then they come after you and me, or at least me! No
thankyou!

LOL. Again, y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

I am self-employed, which means I get to pay all my own taxes, and I
know how much I pay. I have paid a lot for a long time, and I am not
rich. I would not mind being rich, mind you, then I could maybe afford
to take a vacation or move up to Canada. But then I would spoil it for
you, and that luckily for you, is not a false dilemna.

You should come up here. See if you can pick out the gay married people from
the gay unmarried people the straight unmarried people and the straight
married people.

Similiarly, enviro issues are presented in the same way. If we sneak
it under the radar, make enough distracting noise, noone will realize
the finacial costs of these programs. The problem, is that we have
fallen for this before, and noone was buying it this time. Especially
considering that for the last 30 or 40 years Nader and his crowd, have
been singing the same song, but tell us the problems remain. That is
why he was ignored this time more than ever before. The fact that
Kerry, gave lipservice, to pacify the eco-warriors, only proves that
they are easily distracted!

Uh. Whatever all that means. The environment IS the economy. It just
ain't
rightly recognized as such by certain folk.

Clueless in Canada, the fact that you don't get what that means, only
shows how much out of contact you are with the issues that are
important to the majority of US voters. The environment is "not" the
economy, it is only a part of the economy. In a previous election, we
were told that "It is the economy, Stupid!" The Dems are still singing
the same song, but the band has moved on! The economy is always
important, it is just what the money is going to be spent on, and how,
that changes.

I have no idea what that is all supposed to mean, and I don't think you do
either. It sounds like one of George W's speeches. You know, the ones where
the sheep in the audience look all confused until they get the signal to
clap at the end?

OK, well, back to regular programming.

And that is a big part of the problem, is that liberals have fallen
back on their regular programming that worked for them in the 70's,
failing to update their prime time offerings. Any TV station that did
that would not last from one season to the next, how is it that the
Dems think they can go for decades without changing, their song and
dance!

Have you in the past - or do you currently - take hallucinogenic drugs? I
know this is a personal question, but hey, you asked me if I was gay!

Keenan Wellar wrote:

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...

Hi again Keenan, I'll try to address issues you brought up in this
post

Your reference to Puritanism, seems to be rooted in the gay rights
issue.


Also abortion. And censorsihp.

And euthanasia, pornography, prostitution, soft drugs use etc. etc..

Let's make people criminals for doing something that others don't want
and therefore want to forbid everyone else from doing.

I wonder if you are "out" and feeling threatened, or is this
just a hypothetical discussion for you. Now maybe that is not a PC
question to ask, so feel free to ignore it if you choose.

As it happens, I am not gay, but hatred against gay people is not
"hypothetical" for me any more than racism against black people or unequal
pay for women is "hypothetical."

Not to mention the unequal rights for women as promoted by the religious
right: women belong at home, taking care of the children. Geez!

Isn't choice great! The Puritans came here inorder to exercise free
choice, and in so doing, chose to live in a land where others chose
differently. However it is also a democratic land where the majority
rules, and the minority is protected from the tyranny of the majority,
by the courts.


Much to the chagrin of George and friends who are furious that the courts
occasionally strike down some of their puritanical efforts. But a few
changes to the courts, and whammo, the powers of hate will have the
congress, the senate, the presidency, and the courts!

Yeah, already there is not much left to protect the minority from the
tyranny of the majority, except a lot of money to afford expensive
lawyers who know how to talk a bent stick straight, let alone to protect
the maority from an extreme right wing minority who have the
government's ear. Democracy my ass.

(if a majority vote in this so called democracy was indeed all it took,
why did the Democrats lose the previous presidential election even
though they had so many thousands more votes? Why does a democracy need
propaganda, censorship of the media, police state "laws" and police
disruption of peaceful protests and so on?)

The minority, now has the choice, of dealing with it, or slinking
away. I admire you that you are not slinking! That things are
difficult for you, no doubt! We were there for a long time, and only
recently have rallied the troops to take significant ground. Now is
not the time for us to get lazy either. We will keep pressing on, and
you can choose to get onboard or not. That is your choice!


Um. Half of your own country is not on board, and just about all of the rest
of the world is not on board. And you are not going to convince me to hate
people just because a lot of you have gotten your **** together with the
hatred of others as your focus.

Make that less than a quarter of his own country: if the potential
voters make up half the U.S. population, and if only a majority of those
potential voters actually takes the trouble to go and vote, with just
over half of the actual voters voting for one candidate, then that
candidate gets less than half of one half of the population behind him.

Our choice is that we do not want to have Gay Marriages blighting the
landscape

What is your problem with gay marriages?

nor wanton abortion polluting our collective conscious.


But you are OK with young girls in the alley with coat hangers, right?

Will you find a way to deny rich people access to abortions too, or is this
another in your list of policies designed to advance hate against the less
fortunate.

Or people killing other innocent people because the government wants to
wage another war somewhere far away against an imaginary foe.

Regarding blacks feeling intimidated at the polling place, I feel that
is generally a bogus charge.

Blacks feel intimidated at all sorts of places in America, the polling booth
certainly being one of the places where said intimidation is at its best.

I wonder why there are so few black boaters in the U.S., despite the
population of the U.S. being something like 15% black?

But it sure sounds politically powerful. And there is the
core of the problem for Liberals. They keep trying to find some magic
bullet to propel themselves into power, without really having a viable
platform.

Sounds like you just described the current government's approach to
staying in power to a point...


No idea what you are talking about there, but you do realize that the
election was a rather close one, and that it is going to be difficult to
keep people in a state of perpetual fear, or even another four years? Even
Americans will get bored with the so-called "war on terror."

Don't underestimate the herd animal mentality... :-(


and that there are certain inalienable rights. Health
care, or driving a Rolls, and living in Aspen, is not one of them.


What about the right to put all your money offshore and not pay even as much
tax as the poorest person?


live in Colorado, but not Aspen. I drive a hardly rolls, and I have to
pay for my own health insurance. I have a black neighbor who has a
newer car, - a management job, that I expect provides insurance, and
both of us could go up to ski in Aspen. Ain't America great,
independent of our skin color, we can go any place we choose. The
only thing that really holds us back, is our own vision of who we are
and where we want to be!

How many black people are in that same position? Talking about
discrimination... one exception does prove the rule.

I am self-employed, which means I get to pay all my own taxes, and I
know how much I pay. I have paid a lot for a long time, and I am not
rich. I would not mind being rich, mind you, then I could maybe afford
to take a vacation or move up to Canada. But then I would spoil it for
you, and that luckily for you, is not a false dilemna.


You should come up here. See if you can pick out the gay married people from
the gay unmarried people the straight unmarried people and the straight
married people.

Well said!

OK, well, back to regular programming.

And that is a big part of the problem, is that liberals have fallen
back on their regular programming that worked for them in the 70's,
failing to update their prime time offerings. Any TV station that did
that would not last from one season to the next, how is it that the
Dems think they can go for decades without changing, their song and
dance!


Have you in the past - or do you currently - take hallucinogenic drugs? I
know this is a personal question, but hey, you asked me if I was gay!

big grin

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko

Typed in Message-ID:

And euthanasia, pornography, prostitution, soft drugs use etc. etc..

Let's make people criminals for doing something that others don't want
and therefore want to forbid everyone else from doing.

I think you will find that these are illegal to some extent in most Western
countries outside of Holland. While I'm fully in favor of legalizing
"victimless" crimes (most of these are not really, but a different discussion),
these laws are pretty common in most Western countries.

BTW, pornography is pretty available thoughout most of the US. Despite the
rhetoric, there is little censorship, although restrictions on were it can be
shown are common. Political censorship in the US is rare. One can find just
about any opinion in the world published or broadcast somewhere in the US.

Not to mention the unequal rights for women as promoted by the religious
right: women belong at home, taking care of the children. Geez!

My wife belongs for one of those "evangelical religions". Yet many, if not most
of the women in her church work outside of the home, many with good careers.
While I'm in the camp that believes that mindless superstition and senseless
rituals are all that really distinguishes from the animals, I can find
no suppression of womens rights in the vast majority of Fundamentalist
churches,
excluding abortion.

Yeah, already there is not much left to protect the minority from the
tyranny of the majority, except a lot of money to afford expensive
lawyers who know how to talk a bent stick straight, let alone to protect
the maority from an extreme right wing minority who have the
government's ear. Democracy my ass.

"the right wing" is overblown. No matter how he is protrayed in the press, old
George is Middle of the Road. He is more conservative socially than Clinton,
but politically there isn't much difference. The only difference even foreign
policy wise is that Clinton was an Internationalist and George doesn't always
care if the European community cares about what he does.

Going to work now
SYOTR
Larry C.

Hi Larry, appreciate hearing from you again. It is amazing to hear
from these foreigner, who don't like how things turned out in our
election.


wilko wrote:
And euthanasia, pornography, prostitution, soft drugs use etc. etc..

Let's make people criminals for doing something that others don't want
and therefore want to forbid everyone else from doing.

If he wants to do those things, let him stay at home! We always hear
about the ugly American going all over the world, offending host
countries. Well it seems there is enough ugly to go around, at least
to Canada and Netherlands.

I think you will find that these are illegal to some extent in most Western
countries outside of Holland. While I'm fully in favor of legalizing
"victimless" crimes (most of these are not really, but a different discussion),
these laws are pretty common in most Western countries.

BTW, pornography is pretty available thoughout most of the US. Despite the
rhetoric, there is little censorship, although restrictions on were it can be
shown are common. Political censorship in the US is rare. One can find just
about any opinion in the world published or broadcast somewhere in the US.

Not to mention the unequal rights for women as promoted by the religious
right: women belong at home, taking care of the children. Geez!

This seems to be a very acceptable stereotype, my wife is very
independent professional. Try telling her to "submit" and cover with
the Burka (sp?)

My wife belongs for one of those "evangelical religions". Yet many, if not most
of the women in her church work outside of the home, many with good careers.
While I'm in the camp that believes that mindless superstition and senseless
rituals are all that really distinguishes from the animals, I can find
no suppression of womens rights in the vast majority of Fundamentalist
churches,
excluding abortion.

Yeah, already there is not much left to protect the minority from the
tyranny of the majority, except a lot of money to afford expensive
lawyers who know how to talk a bent stick straight, let alone to protect
the maority from an extreme right wing minority who have the
government's ear. Democracy my ass.

"the right wing" is overblown. No matter how he is protrayed in the press, old
George is Middle of the Road. He is more conservative socially than Clinton,
but politically there isn't much difference. The only difference even foreign
policy wise is that Clinton was an Internationalist and George doesn't always
care if the European community cares about what he does.

The very independence displayed by "George", is what made America
great, and the Euros, are still kicking themselves for letting US get
away. They figure they would not be having all the problems they have
if America was still a Colony!

They eventually just make fun of how he speaks, and that is real
International of them. If they have trouble understanding West Texas,
then they need to brush up their language skills!

If they don't like how the election went, as I recall, they don't get
to vote!

Thanks for the refreshing comments Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life,
Live it!

"Keenan Wellar" ) writes:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message

Constitution is talking about. The Constitution says that we are all
born equal

Then the Constitution is wrong. You might want to fix it. I think you fixed
up some other parts that were wrong. Like the value of a black person? That
sort of thing.

I'd like to jump in here to address a popular misonception. The Bible says
"all men are created equal in the eyes of God". It just means that every
person is born with what some religuous beliefs call a soul and can get
into Heaven. It has nothing to do with genetics, social status, or
government legislation and enforcement. It's like another Amercian myth
that any boy can grow up to be President. I had the advantage of living in
the USA for a few years, graduating from an Amercian high scool. There is
quite a difference in what people are taught in Canadian and American
schools and in their outlook and opinions as adults. The attitude of
superiority taught in Amercian schools is much more like what is taught in
England than what is taught in Canada. It's not unexpected as anyone who
lucks into power and weath usually comes to think they are smarter or
better educated or something, supported by compliments by others. Because
we have so many abundant natural resources in Canada we live well in spite
of the enourmous mistakes made by business and government, not because of
their wisdom and ability which si no better than elsewhere, and because of
the abundance of resources, tends to be more wasteful than elsewhere.

On the subject of preserving wilderness, in Canada we have more of it but
we are not doing any better than the Amercians in protecting or restoring
it, especially waterways in and around settled areas. We only get
interested in it when we think it will attract American tourist dollars to
areas of low employment. That happens after the mine has closed or the
profitable trees have been cut. It's a kind of natural progression, like
moving west.

--
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William R. Watt ) writes:

....We only get
interested in it when we think it will attract American tourist dollars to
areas of low employment. That happens after the mine has closed or the
profitable trees have been cut.

so sorry, I forgot the fish. My sincere appologies to the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador which has been spending so much money it doesn't
have on TV ads in the United States, and to all of you Amercian kayak
paddlers who have left the pollution of your own waterways to come to
Newfoundland and Labrador with your Amercian tourist dollars to paddle the
scenic fished out rocky coasts. God bless you every one.

--
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William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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in article , William R. Watt at
wrote on 11/17/04 8:40 AM:


"Keenan Wellar" ) writes:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message

Constitution is talking about. The Constitution says that we are all
born equal

Then the Constitution is wrong. You might want to fix it. I think you fixed
up some other parts that were wrong. Like the value of a black person? That
sort of thing.

I'd like to jump in here to address a popular misonception. The Bible says
"all men are created equal in the eyes of God". It just means that every
person is born with what some religuous beliefs call a soul and can get
into Heaven. It has nothing to do with genetics, social status, or
government legislation and enforcement. It's like another Amercian myth
that any boy can grow up to be President. I had the advantage of living in
the USA for a few years, graduating from an Amercian high scool. There is
quite a difference in what people are taught in Canadian and American
schools and in their outlook and opinions as adults. The attitude of
superiority taught in Amercian schools is much more like what is taught in
England than what is taught in Canada. It's not unexpected as anyone who
lucks into power and weath usually comes to think they are smarter or
better educated or something, supported by compliments by others. Because
we have so many abundant natural resources in Canada we live well in spite
of the enourmous mistakes made by business and government, not because of
their wisdom and ability which si no better than elsewhere, and because of
the abundance of resources, tends to be more wasteful than elsewhere.

On the subject of preserving wilderness, in Canada we have more of it but
we are not doing any better than the Amercians in protecting or restoring
it, especially waterways in and around settled areas. We only get
interested in it when we think it will attract American tourist dollars to
areas of low employment. That happens after the mine has closed or the
profitable trees have been cut. It's a kind of natural progression, like
moving west.

When it comes to the environment, Canada looks better mainly because it's a
big place with less people. I think we are, however, a bit more vocal when
it comes to our green spaces, but you are right in that those values often
do not hold up in the face of short-term economic pressures.

Well Keenan, I'll try again to clarify a few of these issues.

You continue to mention the puritans, and I got to thinking that you
being in Canada have a different view of them than we down here in the
Colonies. They were the religious fanatics of the day, that incited
the riot we call the fight for independence. Of course to us they are
just a bunch of nice folks who wear funny hats, and eat turkey.

This would also suggest why you have a problem with the Constitution,
and think it got things wrong, and should be redone. You are still
licking your wounds over that little fracus back in 1776. Sorry you
lost that one too!

Also abortion. And censorsihp.

Abortion has been discussed before, but censorship is new. Who got
censored?

As it happens, I am not gay, but hatred against gay people is not
"hypothetical" for me any more than racism against black people or unequal
pay for women is "hypothetical."

What happens to you in US politics is all Hypothetical to you. It is
not to those of us who live here.

Isn't choice great! The Puritans came here inorder to exercise free
choice, and in so doing, chose to live in a land where others chose
differently. However it is also a democratic land where the majority
rules, and the minority is protected from the tyranny of the majority,
by the courts.

Much to the chagrin of George and friends who are furious that the courts
occasionally strike down some of their puritanical efforts. But a few
changes to the courts, and whammo, the powers of hate will have the
congress, the senate, the presidency, and the courts!

I'm glad that you saw what I said about the courts. They have proven
through the years to be a moderating factor in US politics. So the
Constitution does work, and there is hope for the Dems, and the
forest! and you!

The Majority is currently identified as the moral
mojority, and so is opposed to the immoral minority. I am not saying
that this is true or right, just that it is reality.

Whatever that means.

Think about it, maybe you will eventually get it.

The minority, now has the choice, of dealing with it, or slinking
away. I admire you that you are not slinking! That things are
difficult for you, no doubt! We were there for a long time, and only
recently have rallied the troops to take significant ground. Now is
not the time for us to get lazy either. We will keep pressing on, and
you can choose to get onboard or not. That is your choice!

Um. Half of your own country is not on board, and just about all of the rest
of the world is not on board. And you are not going to convince me to hate
people just because a lot of you have gotten your **** together with the
hatred of others as your focus.

All your counts don't count in US politics. The only poll that counts
is the one on Nov 2, and is only valid for four years!

Our choice is that we do not want to have Gay Marriages blighting the
landscape

What is your problem with gay marriages?

Asked and Answered, you still don't get it!

nor wanton abortion polluting our collective conscious.

again Asked and Answered!

But you are OK with young girls in the alley with coat hangers, right?

Of course not, but what a false dilemna. Before Roe v. Wade, there
were probably some coat hanger abortions. But not nearly the number of
abortions that go on today. Ironically, I heard that the majority of
babies aborted would probably have been raised in a Liberal home, and
would have swollen your voting ranks now by 20 million. The Dems could
have used those votes, and would have defeated Bush. You have cut
yourself off at the knees.

Will you find a way to deny rich people access to abortions too, or is this
another in your list of policies designed to advance hate against the less
fortunate.

The rich have money to go where they want, to do what ever they want.
They aren't going to planned parenthood clinics for an abortion.
However, we do not choose to have the bill footed by Uncle Sam either.
If the less fortunate can't afford an abortion, let them figure out
how to keep from getting pregnant. You know it still is a mystery.

Regarding blacks feeling intimidated at the polling place, I feel that
is generally a bogus charge.

Blacks feel intimidated at all sorts of places in America, the polling booth
certainly being one of the places where said intimidation is at its best.

There may be places this occurs, it is a
big country, but I am sure we would have heard more, if it was
rampant.

From who? Fox News!?!?

But it sure sounds politically powerful. And there is the
core of the problem for Liberals. They keep trying to find some magic
bullet to propel themselves into power, without really having a viable
platform. Now that would be really hijacking the election, if they
could have pulled it off, like feeding bogus exit polls to their
sheep, which made them feel real good for awhile, but the let down was
a real bummer. Of course if you can blame it on some "old white
dudes," hey, what a coup. Keep on believeing this BS, if it makes you
feel better.

No idea what you are talking about there,

Again Clueless!

but you do realize that the
election was a rather close one, and that it is going to be difficult to
keep people in a state of perpetual fear, or even another four years? Even
Americans will get bored with the so-called "war on terror."

Mm. Only y'all ain't born with equality of opportunity. But I spose
that's
just some crackpot liberal thinkin' there eh?

For a change, I think you got it right, sort of! We obviously are not
born with equal opportunity

Praise geezus.

but then that is not what the
Constitution is talking about. The Constitution says that we are all
born equal

Then the Constitution is wrong. You might want to fix it. I think you fixed
up some other parts that were wrong. Like the value of a black person? That
sort of thing.

and that there are certain inalienable rights. Health
care, or driving a Rolls, and living in Aspen, is not one of them.

What about the right to put all your money offshore and not pay even as much
tax as the poorest person?

live in Colorado, but not Aspen. I drive a hardly rolls, and I have to
pay for my own health insurance. I have a black neighbor who has a
newer car, - a management job, that I expect provides insurance, and
both of us could go up to ski in Aspen. Ain't America great,
independent of our skin color, we can go any place we choose. The
only thing that really holds us back, is our own vision of who we are
and where we want to be!

Too put it bluntly, that's an idiotic oversimplification. Your kids, or the
kids born to your neighbour, are not going to have the same barriers to
success as some kid growing up in a **** poor neighbourhood where the police
are afraid to go and the school is a war zone. It's easy to have a nice
vision when you are starting from the top of the mountain.

I am hardly at the top of the mountain, but as I understand it, anyone
who really wants to can climb the mountain. That is what made the US
unique! and people come still everyday, and are willing to do whatever
it takes to stay.

Luckily most voters realized that the above program is unacceptable,
if for no other reason, than who was going to pay for it? The promise
was that taxes would be raised on the rich. That works until there are
no more rich, and then they come after you and me, or at least me! No
thankyou!

LOL. Again, y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

It is not a false dilemna, kerry said, he was going to raise the taxes
on the rich. Now you said earlier, that the rich don't pay taxes,
because they put them off shore. As if raising the amount due will
encourage them to bring their investments back on shore. That would
mean, Kerry would not be able to raise the promised taxes to support
the promised programs, so they would fail, unless he raise taxes on
me. I don't have off shore investments. The best I could hope for is
that Uncle Sam would take money from one of my pockets, and put it
back in another. This of course after he took his cut. Then all these
programs would fire up inflation, which is nothing more than a hidden
tax as my dollar buys less.


Now I am sure you will probably say Huh! so maybe we will talk more
about that later.


I am self-employed, which means I get to pay all my own taxes, and I
know how much I pay. I have paid a lot for a long time, and I am not
rich. I would not mind being rich, mind you, then I could maybe afford
to take a vacation or move up to Canada. But then I would spoil it for
you, and that luckily for you, is not a false dilemna.



You should come up here. See if you can pick out the gay married people from
the gay unmarried people the straight unmarried people and the straight
married people.

I never claimed that I could pick out gays from staight, married or
unmarried.
Unless I see two or more of them convorting together, and then there
is no doubt that all could ID them! So what is the point? This line of
reason does not make me want to have gay marriages in my community. If
gays want to live together, that is up to them, but we do not have to
sanction them as a married couple.

Similiarly, enviro issues are presented in the same way. If we sneak
it under the radar, make enough distracting noise, noone will realize
the finacial costs of these programs. The problem, is that we have
fallen for this before, and noone was buying it this time. Especially
considering that for the last 30 or 40 years Nader and his crowd, have
been singing the same song, but tell us the problems remain. That is
why he was ignored this time more than ever before. The fact that
Kerry, gave lipservice, to pacify the eco-warriors, only proves that
they are easily distracted!

Uh. Whatever all that means. The environment IS the economy. It just
ain't
rightly recognized as such by certain folk.

Clueless in Canada, the fact that you don't get what that means, only
shows how much out of contact you are with the issues that are
important to the majority of US voters. The environment is "not" the
economy, it is only a part of the economy. In a previous election, we
were told that "It is the economy, Stupid!" The Dems are still singing
the same song, but the band has moved on! The economy is always
important, it is just what the money is going to be spent on, and how,
that changes.

I have no idea what that is all supposed to mean, and I don't think you do
either. It sounds like one of George W's speeches. You know, the ones where
the sheep in the audience look all confused until they get the signal to
clap at the end?

OK, well, back to regular programming.

And that is a big part of the problem, is that liberals have fallen
back on their regular programming that worked for them in the 70's,
failing to update their prime time offerings. Any TV station that did
that would not last from one season to the next, how is it that the
Dems think they can go for decades without changing, their song and
dance!

Thanks for the Dance, Tinkerntom, aka Knesisknosis, Life, Live it!