"Boatin' Buddy!" wrote in message
...
Tinkerntom wrote:

In another discussion, that I tracked down,

Wow! What is your secret weapon? Are you the Internet Administrator?
You
are all powerful, no?

you were stating that you
were not fluent in French, to which the response was that they doubted
you were fluent in English as well. I begin to wonder the same thing!

At one time, I thought you were Clueless in Canada, now I just wonder!

Yes, well let me help you: The "R" on your shoe stands for "Right"...I'll
give you 24 hours to figure out what the "L" stands for.

Loser?

Dave Van wrote:
"Boatin' Buddy!" wrote in message
...


Yes, well let me help you: The "R" on your shoe stands for
"Right"...I'll give you 24 hours to figure out what the "L" stands
for.

Loser?

Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner! ;-)

$5.00 says he *still* won't be able to figure it out.

BB

"Boatin' Buddy!" wrote in message
...
Dave Van wrote:
"Boatin' Buddy!" wrote in message
...


Yes, well let me help you: The "R" on your shoe stands for
"Right"...I'll give you 24 hours to figure out what the "L" stands
for.

Loser?

Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner! ;-)

$5.00 says he *still* won't be able to figure it out.

BB


I'm retracting my Austin Powers comment from earlier in the thread. The
image has completely changed now. Here it is: Remember the TV show
Saturday Night Live when the late Phil Hartman was imitating James
Stockdale, Ross Perot's running mate in the 1992 US Presidenatial election?
That's what I picture when I read TT's writing now. "Who Am I? Why am I
here?"

http://snlarc.jt.org/imp.php?i=885

Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.

I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary. In
order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?" You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made. I was
interested in presenting him with the opportunity for a civil, and
productive conversation, as an opportunity for him to clarify and put
to rest any controversy or misunderstanding. In contrast to his
apparent proclivity to post contrary nonsense, I copied certain links,
single snippets etc. as documentation, which he implied were needed
for any claim on my part to be valid.

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation. But I was curious as to what motivated him.
What made him tick? And in learning this, I would know how to respond
to any post of his that I come across in the future, and hopefully be
able to have a meaningful dialog. He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time, however he continued to post his response.

The thread typically, strayed from the original topic as stated in
your original post. The original post itself was not directly germaine
to boating issues, except as to possibly the connection of paddling in
the wilderness. By the time Keenan and I got to the point of personal
conversation, most of the other poster had left, and the discussion
had deteriorated to a "he said/she said" conversation between Retter
and Keenan.

I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive. Since that time, Retter has not posted
any further to this thread. Leaving Keenan and I to discuss and
respond to each other as we each saw fit, and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it. He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time. I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way. I threatened no harm,
or personal contact in any way with him. Purely intellectual
curiosity, nothing more, nothing less. If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!


Working in the personal security field, and directly with law
enforcement, I understand the sensitivity of cyberstalking as far as
causing harm to anyone by using the internet, and certainly no harm
was intended. However through out the previous parts of the thread,
Keenan presented himself to me and to others as an agressive
antagonist. He has also done so in a majority of approx. 9000 post
that I found, though I did not check out all 9000. I definitely took a
sampling of those post and copied single snippets to the posting on
this thread, to give him opportunity to respond, to the documented
incidents of his previous posting style and how it impacted on the
discussion I thought we were trying to have. Any Info that I copied
and posted, was public info. and available for anyone to find. I did
not present this info for any reason but to allow him to refute, or
put in proper perspective as he chose.

He was free to post any example of his posting to demonstrate a more
ameniable style, which I would have been delighted to see and share. I
have said all along that I believe that he is capable of much more,
and throughly enjoyed his website, the pictures, and the vivid and
intellectually stimulating reports. If he could have just stuck to the
subject of paddling while on the RBP, I am sure there would never have
been this discussion! In my last post, I discussed his move to the
Ottawa waterfront, and how envious I am of him living with such an
abundance of navigatable water with such a beautiful back drop as the
area around Ottawa. And in his last post to me, he appeared to
sincerely appreciate my comments. It was actually a very civil
exchange.


There is no libel, and no cyberstalking here!! If I have hurt his
feelings, I will gladly apologize, and for those who are concerned, I
will not in the future respond to his post, unless he first responds
to mine. That should make him feel safe out there in cyberspace, at
least from me. And the rest of you can know that I will try to follow
the proper netiquette closer in the future, regarding copying your
previous, and embarrasing post to a current thread. Hopefully you all
can sleep better tonight as well, feeling safer from the past.

I do appreciate your guidance to the web site to reduce the size of
links, and will definitly check it out. Band width is an important
consideration, and it would seem to me that the greatest waste of band
width occurs with the continual nesting of conversation threads, that
are repeated ad naseum with each new response. Even with all the
snipping, and then the discussion really gets hard to follow and lends
itself to deception, and misleading the reader. I post on other
boards, and this is the first that I have run into this system. It is
not that hard to follow a conversation flows from one self contained
post to another, and you would save a massive amount of bandwidth.

Regarding other usenet policies, I will be studying them, and
observing your practices. I appreciate, and encourage your
instruction, and will eventually get this beast figured out, "yelling
their own 'expert' opinion," this is the real wild place!!!

Regards to Dave Van, Boatin'Buddy, and all, and it would help all us
newbies, if you would update your "Who Am I? How did I get here?"
That way, we could just go there, and not have to fish around all over
the net to get to know you. And that way you would also have more
input as to how the picture is painted.


KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"Dave Van" wrote in message link.net...
"Boatin' Buddy!" wrote in message
...
Dave Van wrote:
"Boatin' Buddy!" wrote in message
...


Yes, well let me help you: The "R" on your shoe stands for
"Right"...I'll give you 24 hours to figure out what the "L" stands
for.

Loser?

Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner! ;-)

$5.00 says he *still* won't be able to figure it out.

BB


I'm retracting my Austin Powers comment from earlier in the thread. The
image has completely changed now. Here it is: Remember the TV show
Saturday Night Live when the late Phil Hartman was imitating James
Stockdale, Ross Perot's running mate in the 1992 US Presidenatial election?
That's what I picture when I read TT's writing now. "Who Am I? Why am I
here?"

http://snlarc.jt.org/imp.php?i=885

Dave, it is TnT for short. Don't want anyone getting confused,
thinking they are me and I are them! Would not want them to have to
live that down.

Dropping the mystery cape, was discomforting, but comforting also. I
am me! I don't have to be anyone special, or smart, or the best
paddler, with the best stories to tell. I can just be me, and how I
am, and why I am! The whole story was not told, but the part that I
felt was pertinent to where I am now. Stay tuned for more episodes of
SNL, some will most certainly fit, and I always enjoy making someone
laugh, even if it is at my expense.

Personally I didn't like Austin Powers that much anyway. But Stockdale
is pretty funny, keep on smiling, and collect your fiver! Oh, don't
forget to do your own "Who am I? Why am I here?"

KOS TNT

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.


Not 'lurking'. Ignoring. Which is something you ought to consider.

rbp has had a recent period of nonuse from several trolls and abusers taking
over the conversations and driving everyone away. A few years ago it was
quite a lively place, with a lot of regulars who paddled together and
swapped lots of info and stories. Then a few 'dissonant personalities' came
around, and just mucked up the place enough that people slipped off to other
forums. Recently, there has been a slow migration back here, but I think the
jury is still out as to whether or not it will stick. Probably a few people
have already tossed in the towel, while more are using the time-honored
technique of not pitching in to a dead-end thread, waiting for it to die.
Unfortunately, the participants usually carry over their agendas onto other
threads, which is what happened previously and killed the group. Worse yet
is when they chase each other onto other groups. Personally, my own
involvement on this thread has been only to help you use this to 'work out
the kinks'. I got no dog in whatever fight you and Keenan are having, but
I'd like to see rbp innoculated from the new 'dissonant personalities' who
seem to have found each other.


I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary.

And the reason you felt you had to get involved was...?

In order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?"

Yes, I know what I said.

You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

Well, yes and no. I don't know Keenan, or many other posters here, from
Adam, and to my knowledge have never had conversations with him. I'm
figuring him out from reading his posts, but he and I don't go 'way back'
like some other folks here. Certainly he seems to be a bit of a blowhard,
but then again, I have lots of friends who are blowhards. But the reality is
that, yes, many people here DO have long term posting relationships, and
many of us have even met IRL. You can't level that playing field. You have
to just be around long enough to join the clique.

But in the 'do you know who you are talking to' vein: keep in mind, as a
newbie who probably wants access to good information in the future and the
chance to make friendships, that among the regular posters and lurkers here
are olympic boating champions, industry giants in manufacturing,
world-famous outfitters, safety experts and guides, people who invented
half the stuff we are paddling, and up-and-coming boaters of all sizes and
flavors. Not to induce you to be paranoid, but you have come into the big
house....wipe your feet at the door and mind the fingerprints on the fine
china. And no farting in public.


I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Good luck with that! :-) Figuring out someone's political perspective, and
the reasons therof, might be one of the toughest things to do even IRL! But
certainly the pursuit might teach you more about the people. In reality,
though, I think the history you create yourself WITH the people is the best
method of 'getting to know' someone. My knowledge of folks here is based
almost entirely on the history of our communication, as is theirs of me. I
think you might learn a LOT if you select someone (you're welcome to use me,
but my posts may be too old); someone who seems to be a good fit here, and
read their first month or so of posts. Just to see how they dealt with
conflict, what they came here looking for, how they were received, and how
they repaired toes they invariably stepped on, or got stepped upon. People
who come in with guns a-blazing, defining the rules and setting the
boundaries among people who already have defined boundaries, almost never
end up being ingratiated or appreciated. Often they get run off. And those
who insist that 'they have a right to be here' end up with the place all to
themselves. Usenet is a weird place that way. My other favorite hangout,
roff, would have chewed you up alive, spit you out and let the door slap you
on the ass on the way out within the hour. We're much more tolerant here,
lucky for you.


Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

You're welcome, but I'll be honest. I could care less if you end up being a
regular here or not....I just am doing my part to keep rbp alive again. But
you think you have gotten flak?? Try this out: You have no idea how tolerant
folks have been of your Liberal-bashing, patronizing, condescending, idiotic
gleeful pseudo-religious insufferable smugness. Personally, I think the vast
majority of people here are supporting Keenan in your little ****ing match,
hoping you'll take a hint and crawl off back under whatever rock you slid
out from. The messages I am hearing are that you should FOAD.

By the way, THAT is just a hint of 'flak'. And I'm just an amateur at it.

You, on the other hand, are about to launch off on your soapbox, telling all
of Usenet 'the rules' again. See below:


I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made.....
(snip)

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation....

(snip)
He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time....

(snip)
I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive....

(snip)
... and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it....

(snip)
He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time....

(snip)
I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way....

(snip)
If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!

Umm, there you go making the rules again. Do some googling on 'net nannies'.
While you're at it, consider how much you are making ME into one! :-(

I'm going to sign out here...I've told you what I know. I'm not the net
administrator, either, and all this is IMHO, but I've managed to land on
this, and other groups on my feet without having to produce a masterpiece
thesis justifying myself.

My last piece of advice: keep it purely on topic for awhile. You've pretty
much established yourself as a bit of a blowhard, and folks are still
sussing out whether or not you even are interesting in boating, and what you
may possibly have to contribute. And stop pushing your thread....if it
floats, it floats. If not, there's a message to you in that. Sorry for the
reality, but welcome to Usenet.

--riverman

How big a hat do you have to wear to contain your bloated ego? Is it made of
tinfoil?

Thanks for the laughs, Tinerntom!

Life! Not really a wholesome cereal!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.

I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary. In
order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?" You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made. I was
interested in presenting him with the opportunity for a civil, and
productive conversation, as an opportunity for him to clarify and put
to rest any controversy or misunderstanding. In contrast to his
apparent proclivity to post contrary nonsense, I copied certain links,
single snippets etc. as documentation, which he implied were needed
for any claim on my part to be valid.

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation. But I was curious as to what motivated him.
What made him tick? And in learning this, I would know how to respond
to any post of his that I come across in the future, and hopefully be
able to have a meaningful dialog. He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time, however he continued to post his response.

The thread typically, strayed from the original topic as stated in
your original post. The original post itself was not directly germaine
to boating issues, except as to possibly the connection of paddling in
the wilderness. By the time Keenan and I got to the point of personal
conversation, most of the other poster had left, and the discussion
had deteriorated to a "he said/she said" conversation between Retter
and Keenan.

I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive. Since that time, Retter has not posted
any further to this thread. Leaving Keenan and I to discuss and
respond to each other as we each saw fit, and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it. He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time. I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way. I threatened no harm,
or personal contact in any way with him. Purely intellectual
curiosity, nothing more, nothing less. If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!


Working in the personal security field, and directly with law
enforcement, I understand the sensitivity of cyberstalking as far as
causing harm to anyone by using the internet, and certainly no harm
was intended. However through out the previous parts of the thread,
Keenan presented himself to me and to others as an agressive
antagonist. He has also done so in a majority of approx. 9000 post
that I found, though I did not check out all 9000. I definitely took a
sampling of those post and copied single snippets to the posting on
this thread, to give him opportunity to respond, to the documented
incidents of his previous posting style and how it impacted on the
discussion I thought we were trying to have. Any Info that I copied
and posted, was public info. and available for anyone to find. I did
not present this info for any reason but to allow him to refute, or
put in proper perspective as he chose.

He was free to post any example of his posting to demonstrate a more
ameniable style, which I would have been delighted to see and share. I
have said all along that I believe that he is capable of much more,
and throughly enjoyed his website, the pictures, and the vivid and
intellectually stimulating reports. If he could have just stuck to the
subject of paddling while on the RBP, I am sure there would never have
been this discussion! In my last post, I discussed his move to the
Ottawa waterfront, and how envious I am of him living with such an
abundance of navigatable water with such a beautiful back drop as the
area around Ottawa. And in his last post to me, he appeared to
sincerely appreciate my comments. It was actually a very civil
exchange.


There is no libel, and no cyberstalking here!! If I have hurt his
feelings, I will gladly apologize, and for those who are concerned, I
will not in the future respond to his post, unless he first responds
to mine. That should make him feel safe out there in cyberspace, at
least from me. And the rest of you can know that I will try to follow
the proper netiquette closer in the future, regarding copying your
previous, and embarrasing post to a current thread. Hopefully you all
can sleep better tonight as well, feeling safer from the past.

I do appreciate your guidance to the web site to reduce the size of
links, and will definitly check it out. Band width is an important
consideration, and it would seem to me that the greatest waste of band
width occurs with the continual nesting of conversation threads, that
are repeated ad naseum with each new response. Even with all the
snipping, and then the discussion really gets hard to follow and lends
itself to deception, and misleading the reader. I post on other
boards, and this is the first that I have run into this system. It is
not that hard to follow a conversation flows from one self contained
post to another, and you would save a massive amount of bandwidth.

Regarding other usenet policies, I will be studying them, and
observing your practices. I appreciate, and encourage your
instruction, and will eventually get this beast figured out, "yelling
their own 'expert' opinion," this is the real wild place!!!

Regards to Dave Van, Boatin'Buddy, and all, and it would help all us
newbies, if you would update your "Who Am I? How did I get here?"
That way, we could just go there, and not have to fish around all over
the net to get to know you. And that way you would also have more
input as to how the picture is painted.


KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"riverman" wrote in message ...
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.


Not 'lurking'. Ignoring. Which is something you ought to consider.

rbp has had a recent period of nonuse from several trolls and abusers taking
over the conversations and driving everyone away. A few years ago it was
quite a lively place, with a lot of regulars who paddled together and
swapped lots of info and stories. Then a few 'dissonant personalities' came
around, and just mucked up the place enough that people slipped off to other
forums. Recently, there has been a slow migration back here, but I think the
jury is still out as to whether or not it will stick. Probably a few people
have already tossed in the towel, while more are using the time-honored
technique of not pitching in to a dead-end thread, waiting for it to die.
Unfortunately, the participants usually carry over their agendas onto other
threads, which is what happened previously and killed the group. Worse yet
is when they chase each other onto other groups. Personally, my own
involvement on this thread has been only to help you use this to 'work out
the kinks'. I got no dog in whatever fight you and Keenan are having, but
I'd like to see rbp innoculated from the new 'dissonant personalities' who
seem to have found each other.


I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary.

And the reason you felt you had to get involved was...?

In order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?"

Yes, I know what I said.

You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

Well, yes and no. I don't know Keenan, or many other posters here, from
Adam, and to my knowledge have never had conversations with him. I'm
figuring him out from reading his posts, but he and I don't go 'way back'
like some other folks here. Certainly he seems to be a bit of a blowhard,
but then again, I have lots of friends who are blowhards. But the reality is
that, yes, many people here DO have long term posting relationships, and
many of us have even met IRL. You can't level that playing field. You have
to just be around long enough to join the clique.

But in the 'do you know who you are talking to' vein: keep in mind, as a
newbie who probably wants access to good information in the future and the
chance to make friendships, that among the regular posters and lurkers here
are olympic boating champions, industry giants in manufacturing,
world-famous outfitters, safety experts and guides, people who invented
half the stuff we are paddling, and up-and-coming boaters of all sizes and
flavors. Not to induce you to be paranoid, but you have come into the big
house....wipe your feet at the door and mind the fingerprints on the fine
china. And no farting in public.


I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Good luck with that! :-) Figuring out someone's political perspective, and
the reasons therof, might be one of the toughest things to do even IRL! But
certainly the pursuit might teach you more about the people. In reality,
though, I think the history you create yourself WITH the people is the best
method of 'getting to know' someone. My knowledge of folks here is based
almost entirely on the history of our communication, as is theirs of me. I
think you might learn a LOT if you select someone (you're welcome to use me,
but my posts may be too old); someone who seems to be a good fit here, and
read their first month or so of posts. Just to see how they dealt with
conflict, what they came here looking for, how they were received, and how
they repaired toes they invariably stepped on, or got stepped upon. People
who come in with guns a-blazing, defining the rules and setting the
boundaries among people who already have defined boundaries, almost never
end up being ingratiated or appreciated. Often they get run off. And those
who insist that 'they have a right to be here' end up with the place all to
themselves. Usenet is a weird place that way. My other favorite hangout,
roff, would have chewed you up alive, spit you out and let the door slap you
on the ass on the way out within the hour. We're much more tolerant here,
lucky for you.


Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

You're welcome, but I'll be honest. I could care less if you end up being a
regular here or not....I just am doing my part to keep rbp alive again. But
you think you have gotten flak?? Try this out: You have no idea how tolerant
folks have been of your Liberal-bashing, patronizing, condescending, idiotic
gleeful pseudo-religious insufferable smugness. Personally, I think the vast
majority of people here are supporting Keenan in your little ****ing match,
hoping you'll take a hint and crawl off back under whatever rock you slid
out from. The messages I am hearing are that you should FOAD.

By the way, THAT is just a hint of 'flak'. And I'm just an amateur at it.

You, on the other hand, are about to launch off on your soapbox, telling all
of Usenet 'the rules' again. See below:


I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made.....
(snip)

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation....

(snip)
He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time....

(snip)
I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive....

(snip)
... and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it....

(snip)
He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time....

(snip)
I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way....

(snip)
If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!

Umm, there you go making the rules again. Do some googling on 'net nannies'.
While you're at it, consider how much you are making ME into one! :-(

I'm going to sign out here...I've told you what I know. I'm not the net
administrator, either, and all this is IMHO, but I've managed to land on
this, and other groups on my feet without having to produce a masterpiece
thesis justifying myself.

My last piece of advice: keep it purely on topic for awhile. You've pretty
much established yourself as a bit of a blowhard, and folks are still
sussing out whether or not you even are interesting in boating, and what you
may possibly have to contribute. And stop pushing your thread....if it
floats, it floats. If not, there's a message to you in that. Sorry for the
reality, but welcome to Usenet.

--riverman

Hello again riverman, I appreciate your sincere and thoughtful
response. I decided not to snip or insert my comments in your
statement, and to let it stand in its present form unedited for the
time being.

I was one of those who came back, and desired a group that was
discussing boating issues. I found a group that seemed to be inclined
just to bash Bush. The bashing was going on long before I got here.
Some others most likely came as well and saw what was going on, and
left again. The apparent ascendency of the elite, Liberal perspective
turned off, and turned away many prospective memebers to the group.
Maybe you should think twice before posting OT post that just lead to
a morass of destruction.

I on the other hand, am not inclined to leave, nor to give way to
contrary positions, just to keep peace, as you and others well know.
Newbie, yes. Learning the rope, certainly. If I've stepped on some
toes, quick to apologize. If I've hurt someones feelings just because
I do not agree with them, tough!

The bashing and trashing had nothing to do with paddling, or for that
matter the wilderness, or the environment. I have a long standing post
that has yet to be responded to on this thread, that was posted
directly to the OP. It strayed from the political bashing, and offered
a discussion about our individual love and respect of the wilderness.
Apparently no one here really wanted to talk about that, they just
wanted to bash Bush. There are other groups that offer a political
free for all, that if someone is so inclined, they are welcome to go
and post whatever they choose, and the playing field is level, and
everyone know the rules, and still choose to be there. If my post was
ignored, because I was not a member of the elite clique, then it
stands as a monument to the true interest and intentions of the
clique. If it still ignored, after we have gotten to know each other,
then it still is a monument to the clique, and sadly its eventual
demise.

I sincerely respect you and others, as elite paddlers, and cherish
your experience, stories, and input. Your elite status, does not
necessarily carry over to OT subjects. Nor was I willing to get
involved in the sword drawing contest, my sword is sharper than yours.
I came here to talk boating, not to listen to debates, and
dissertations about the political arena. I did not try to compare my
data, details and statistics with yours.

There is another thread, "Stupid, S.......Americans" which I have
specifically chosen not to get involved in. A discussion like this,
out beside the river, or over a beer, between three buddies, can be
lots of fun, where you know and respect each other. Bringing it into
a public forum is crass, and especially if OT. Why would any American
want to join this group to be abused by the clique?

I also respect your desire, which I believe is sincere, for the RBP to
be a dynamic healthy community of paddlers, that love to talk about
boating, and our own foopahs. I am more than willing to assist in
making this happen. I posted, "Who am I, Where did I come from?" to
help identify members and define community. I went so far as to expose
my own bio and vulnerabilities. However if the community is a closed
clique to which you have to be initiated, I would expect that could be
a big reason that the general boating public wants to have little to
do with it. Nothing turns off most Americans than the exclusive
country club elite mentality, unless of course they are the ones
inside the country club! Neither is it an exclusive realm of
Americans, and I feel fortunate to have had my herizon broadened
already with the limited contact I have had with "foreigners, and
those with a different world view." This definitely includes you, who
only a short time ago was a total stranger, and now we have gotten to
know each other a little better, and you are an American.

I have posted to some other boating related threads in this group, and
tried to stay on topic, with some color added, and I made no attempt
to take over the thread. I am not opposed to personal color, and non
threatening jabs, in good fun. In my research, I have observed how
certain individuals, to remain unnamed, have taken over threads as
evidenced in this group, and documented in my recent post, and others.
I understand how this would kill the thread. I have not carried the
conversation of this thread beyond this thread, with in this group,or
to any other group.

If there is any ignoring going on here or on my post on the other
threads, it is by the same elitist clique who control the group
dynamic. Again, why would most any new member be willing to run the
gauntlet, to achieve the approval of a few elite snobs. I was done
with that in highschool. If I say something, that is wrong, instruct
me; If I say something that is funny, laugh; but if you ignore me, you
are showing a whole lot of others that they will be ignored as well.
Most of them will just go somewhere else. It will be your party, but
you will be dancing with yourselves.

I do not believe that I am making the rules, but attempting to define
them for myself, and apply them equally. I will check out "Net
Nannies", no time right now.

In the meantime, I encourage you to be one of the first to update your
bio on "Who am I? Where did I come from?" I think it was called
Detente - openess. Show me and other prospective new members that this
is not a exclusive club with a secret membership, but instead all are
welcome to participate and maybe even make a few mistakes, even if all
you paddle is a Folbot!

If I am a blowhard, now you know it. Don't put so much on my plate at
one time, and cut it up real small!

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka Knesisknosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made.

Did Keenan ever say he wasn't?

In contrast to his apparent proclivity to post contrary nonsense

Contary to.....you.

And that's clearly where the problem lies here.

I copied certain links, single snippets etc. as documentation, which he
implied were needed for any claim on my part to be valid.

Posting snippets from conversations I've been having with people over the
course (in some cases) of several years on usenet tells you nothing about
my character, and is irrelevant to whatever "claims" you have made.

The folly of your strategy can be clearly illustrated with two of the links
that you posted.

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

In what way do those links - which YOU posted - support any of your claims,
Tinkerntom?

Be honest with yourself, Tinkerntom.

You didn't like it that I disagreed with your views, and you went on an
old-fashioned low-down dirty-dog character assassination. You crawled in the
mud, and now you stink. And shame on you!

Understand, Tinkerntom, that your mud-slinging doesn't bother me a bit. And
no, it's not just because you did such a lousy job of it and only served to
humiliate yourself. It's because I've got nothing to hide.

Your mud-slinging doesn't say a lot about me.

But it says a lot about YOU that you felt the need to do that.

If it was really just about educating yourself, you wouldn't have attempted
a public character assassination. You would simply have absorbed the
information and let it shape your future communications with me. But that's
not what you did, Tinkerntom, and you know it. You were hurt, so you lashed
out.

Be honest with yourself, Tinkerntom. This is not about me. It's about you.

"Dave Van" wrote in message
ink.net...
Hi Keenan. How ya doin?

Just a note to say that I have found that when my dog misbehaves, the best
way to have the discipline sink into her fuzzy little brain is to ignore
her
for a good while after scolding her. Like my drooling pooch, Tinkerintom
seems to thrive on attention. Maybe we should just ignore him, as
precious
and irresistible as he is.

Have a great day.

DV

Thanks Dave. Damn, I love that word "precious." Why didn't I think of that
myself, it would have rounded out my last post perfectly :-(

Appreciate the advice. We have cats :-)

Tinkerntom wrote:

Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.

Tom, for someone who's just started to post here you sure manage to read
a lot into people's behaviour...

....that isn't there.

You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

That's also not the case with many of us. A couple of the regular
posters know eachother from way back. A few have tried actively to get
to meet the other posters on this forum, others are here more or less
frequently in threads of certain subjects only.

Between those people who chose to get to know one another better,
sometimes e-mailing for years outside RBP, going on trips and holidays
together, some wonderful friendships and even relationships have formed.

Still, I seriously doubt that those are taken for granted.

I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

I wonder how much you think that you've been able to dig up, and how
much you had to make up. I have had difficulties figuring out how my
background has influenced my political views wrt the U.S., and those
views have changed a *lot* over the last ten to fifteen years.

Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

Obviously you couldn't care less, that's why you dove into the thread
with such bloodthirst, such fanaticism and a holier than thou attitude
that was bound to irritate people.

I think Keenan's responses to both you and Rick Etter have been very
courteous in comparison. Despite the drivel fired at him, he managed to
come up with some well argumented points, instead of stooping to the
level of personal insults and superiority complex that he was being
confronted with.

If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

Believe me, you haven't seen FlAK ("Flieger Abwehr Kanone"), just a
little bit of cheap left over new years day fireworks at the best.

I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made. I was
interested in presenting him with the opportunity for a civil, and
productive conversation, as an opportunity for him to clarify and put
to rest any controversy or misunderstanding. In contrast to his
apparent proclivity to post contrary nonsense, I copied certain links,
single snippets etc. as documentation, which he implied were needed
for any claim on my part to be valid.

Tom, your attempts at a "conversation" were anything but civil and
productive, and your links and snippets proved very little, if anything,
beyond the view you had already decided upon. If you had given some time
to look into things, I think that you wouldn't have put up such a
disdainful attitude of superiority into just about each and every one of
your posts. Maybe, you would have engaged the unknown to you people with
a little more respect and tried to weigh their words before deciding
upon your own opinion. Now you just brushed aside what others said,
proclaiming to know the one and only truth yourself.

He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time, however he continued to post his response.

That goes for you as well. It takes at least two to tango.

I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive. Since that time, Retter has not posted
any further to this thread. Leaving Keenan and I to discuss and
respond to each other as we each saw fit, and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it. He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time. I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way. I threatened no harm,
or personal contact in any way with him. Purely intellectual
curiosity, nothing more, nothing less. If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!

Tom, stop putting up rules that you are in no position to direct onto
anyone but yourself. This is not your private playground.

I definitely took a
sampling of those post and copied single snippets to the posting on
this thread, to give him opportunity to respond, to the documented
incidents of his previous posting style and how it impacted on the
discussion I thought we were trying to have. Any Info that I copied
and posted, was public info. and available for anyone to find. I did
not present this info for any reason but to allow him to refute, or
put in proper perspective as he chose.

Tom, you are again putting up an example of what someone ought to do
acording to you. AFAIK no-one needs to refute or respond to anything you
state, and you have no right whatsoever to demand anything of anyone
else here. Stop acting if you do.

Why would Keenan even bother to respond to anything you pull out of a
very deep historical hat that wasn't even direct at you? Besides it
being bad netiquette and probably being pulled out of context...

If he could have just stuck to the
subject of paddling while on the RBP, I am sure there would never have
been this discussion!

If you hadn't continued to pour more oil on the fire, it also wouldn't
have been here. Stop pointing fingers, we're all part of this, and I
don't see any reason to put blaim anywhere.


Regards to Dave Van, Boatin'Buddy, and all, and it would help all us
newbies, if you would update your "Who Am I? How did I get here?"
That way, we could just go there, and not have to fish around all over
the net to get to know you. And that way you would also have more
input as to how the picture is painted.

There are many places where you can find information, both about some of
the participants of this forum:

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/rbp/who.html

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/rbp/photo.html

other RBP related things:

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/rbp/rbplinks.html

....and do yourself a favour and do a google search on "netiquette" and
"usenet".

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
...

Hello again riverman, I appreciate your sincere and thoughtful
response. I decided not to snip or insert my comments in your
statement, and to let it stand in its present form unedited for the
time being.

Well, that was bad form. Delete stuff you aren't directly replying to.


I was one of those who came back, and desired a group that was
discussing boating issues. I found a group that seemed to be inclined
just to bash Bush. The bashing was going on long before I got here.
Some others most likely came as well and saw what was going on, and
left again. The apparent ascendency of the elite, Liberal perspective
turned off, and turned away many prospective memebers to the group.
Maybe you should think twice before posting OT post that just lead to
a morass of destruction.

Man, you ARE one piece of work! If you truly have no idea how revolting and
inflammatory that statement is, then you are hopeless. In fact, if you DO
have an idea of how revolting and inflammatory that statement is, then you
are hopeless.

EOT for me; I know a waste of time when I see it. Good luck making friends.
Let us know how it goes.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Let us know how it goes.

Or don't.