in article et, rick etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 11:02 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDCAAD29.1265C%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article t, rick etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 9:17 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCA9664.12630%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article G09pd.15037$Gw.11523@trndny09, No Spam at
wrote on 11/24/04 6:43 PM:

Well that is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing. I would really like to understand how
George W Bush could be less evil than John Kerry. I mean, I watch George
with one of his little speeches where he makes an obnoxious statement
and
then goes "heh heh heh" with that evil grin....it just gives me the
willies!
====================
But a self-confessed war criminal doesn't phase you at all? Quite a
selective set of knee-jerks you have there, eh?

You mean because Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam?
=====================
No, stupid, because he admitted to participating in, and performing *war
crimes*. Did you miss that little part of his sordid past, or were you
just determined to not hear anything contrary to the 'good feelings' he gave
you?

Yes, I'm aware. The entire US fiasco in Vietnam was a war crime. He's
honest. I know, that's not very presidential.

And he didn't give me "good feelings" actually. He's not very good at that.
That makes him not very electable.

You really think that
equates to making Presidential decisions? It's particularly ironic
considering what Bush was doing while Kerry was in Vietnam.
==================
Pray tell, what would that have been, fool?

Fooling around mostly, yes.

(Oci-One Kanubi)

Typed in Message-ID:

snipCheck out Japan: for 45% of our cost they manage to have 50% of our
infant mortality and a 5% greater life expectancy.

Please note that there are other demographic elements that partial account for
those numbers. If you will note that most of the countries with real low infant
mortality rates are also countries with low immigrant populations and highly
homogenous populations.

The other item to note is that we spend vast amounts on catastrophic care for
terminal patients, especially elderly cancer and heart patients. Is that true
in the socialized medicine countries?

The real problem is that corporate paid insurance has disconnected medical care
from market values. Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Suppose that
instead of health insurance you had grocery insurance. Now when you go to the
store, since your cost is the same whether you are frugal or not, are you going
to buy the chicken or ribeye steak?
Most people will by the ribeye, and stick to the brand names instead of
shopping for their best value.

In my industry there a many, if not most that are self insured. One client of
mine required a minor but costly surgery that he would have to pay a good
portion of out of his own pocket. He actually shopped his doctors and hospitals
and found that by having the procedure done at a smaller hospital about 30
miles away, he saved half on the procedure. Have anyone else here ever done
that? We shop for value in are cars and boats, but go the the most expensive
doctors.


SYOTR
Larry C.

On 25-Nov-2004, ospam (Larry Cable) wrote:

The other item to note is that we spend vast amounts on catastrophic care for
terminal patients, especially elderly cancer and heart patients. Is that true
in the socialized medicine countries?

No - we just stick the elderly on ice flows and let the polar bears eat them.

I think one reason for higher costs in the US is that there are no limits set
by anyone other than the doctors. Also, second (and third...) opinions seem
more common in the US.

OTOH, in Canada, people are more likely to get treatment since it's not an
out of pocket cost. Hence better pre- and neo-natal care.

If you compare auto accident statistics between Canada and the US, you'll
see very similar death rates but higher injury rates in Canada. Since the
latter are determined by hospital visits, they show that Canadians are more
likely to visit the doctor after an accident than in the US, since there's
no incremental cost. This may, however, avoid later costs for untreated
injuries.

Most people will by the ribeye, and stick to the brand names instead of
shopping for their best value.

In Canada, the doctors vet patient care and do not encourage frivolous spending.
Health care dollars are limited and must be used judiciously. Just because it's
socialized doesn't mean it's unlimited.

BTW, it's a myth that all health care in Canada is publically funded. You can
buy health care for certain things and other things are not covered. Example:
a friend of mine chose to pay for cataract surgery instead of waiting on a list
for several months. That also allowed her to get special lenses inserted which
provided complete vision correction so she no longer wears glasses. The special
lenses weren't covered by government.

No one can stop you from crossing the border to the US to buy other care.

Mike

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Wilko wrote in message
...
Tinkerntom wrote:

Hi, my Dutch friend Wilko, and I mean that sincerely.

Tinkerntom, to call someone my friend, I need to like someone a lot,
feel that I want to respect them, and I require them to respect me. I
don't take friendship lightly. I don't feel the need to make many
friends, IMO quality means a lot more than quantity in that respect,
although I tend to be in touch with a decent amount of people.


I again apolgize though, for overall, I find you all however
disparate, a noble band of brothers, and worthy of friendship. Do I
know you well, no, but I am sure we will get to know each other
better, given time, so I extend the hand of friendship. We all need as
many friends as we can get. There needs to be fewer, lower walls
between us. That is true Internationalism, we are all on that all to
small life boat, called Earth. That is also true environmentalism, for
if we don't know how to get along together, what difference will it
make if we save all the trees and rivers and wildplaces, if I could
only experience them alone.

Well, I'm with Wilko on this one, Tom. Justify yourself how you want to, and
extend all the metaphorical hands you want; the flavor of your posts as well
as the timbre of you online voice are patronizing and minimizing, and can
easily be felt as offensive. Even your response to Wilko's uncompromising
honesty above was met with patronization. How can you reply that he is 'your
friend' if the feeling is clearly not reciprocated? If it is truly your
voice and character, then I wonder how well you will do here. And if this is
by design, then it won't float for long. We will see; its certainly not up
to me.

Leaving the political differences aside (if that is even possible), this is
still primarily a boating forum, where people swap stories and learn from
each other. In order to be receptive to learning about boating, the same
framework has to exist that is conducive for friendship: mutual acceptance
and respect, honesty, a touch of appropriate humility, and a open, receptive
manner. If people percieve someone as an argumentative baiter, someone who
sets their own rules for their own and other's discussions, then that person
might very well find their contributions or responses to boating questions
compromised. If you come slicing into an eddy and trash several boaters,
don't be suprised if they refuse to cover your line in the next drop.

You challenged me as wanting to be a SuperGuru. I'm not a Guru, Tom. I'm a
contrubutor to rbp. Regardless of what you may feel about me because of our
political differences, Tom, the truth is that I do have very extensive
canoeing experience in many environments, a very conscientious safety
record, and have enjoyed working and paddling recreationally with many folks
over the past 3 decades, some of whom are on this newsgroup. And I am happy
to contribute my experience and insights, and which are recieved in exactly
the manner that they are intended. For you to offer several times to 'meet
me for a cup of coffee' might be a syncophatic fawning or an honest offering
of an olive branch, but in truth it seems rather hollow, with me being in
Congo.

I will continue working on understanding who you are and why you made the
type of arrival in rbp as you did, as that will certainly underscore the
nature of our online relationship. But if you truly want to be a welcome
contributor here, and more importantly, if you truly want to be a recipient
of the wealth of info, insights, knowledge and camaraderie that is available
here, you will listen to what Wilko, myself, and others are telling you.

Respectfully, and with all sincerity:
--riverman

"Michael Daly"

Typed in Message-ID:

The other item to note is that we spend vast amounts on catastrophic care
for
terminal patients, especially elderly cancer and heart patients. Is that
true
in the socialized medicine countries?

No - we just stick the elderly on ice flows and let the polar bears eat them.


In Canada, the doctors vet patient care and do not encourage frivolous
spending.
Health care dollars are limited and must be used judiciously. Just because
it's
socialized doesn't mean it's unlimited.

I asked a real question and you seem to give two different replies. Would a
doctor in Canada spend thousands or tens of thousands to extend the life of a
terminally ill patient? If they do ration health care, is this one of the
areas that they save? Remember, here they spend hundreds of thousands to give
liver transplants to 70 year old alcoholics.

The general complaint of socialized medicine is that it does become a scarce
commodity.

Second and third opinions are a result of sometimes frivolous legal suits in
the US.
SYOTR
Larry C.

: "Michael Daly"

There are several causes of that high infant mortality rate in the US.
One of the most significant is that fact that health care is only
available to those that can afford it. Since low-income women tend
to have higher birth rates than wealthy women, many births don't
come with adequate health care. Pre-natal care is especially lackin

ng
and care in the first year is poor.

Mike

That isn't particularly true. There are several programs available to low
income women free of charge though the Health departments and other sources,
such as WIC, which provides food vouchers for low income pregnant women or
women with young children.

The simple fact is that a person can walk into any hospital in the US and they
are required by law to treat that person regardless of the ability to pay. This
isn't any unknown fact among the poor.

I would suggest that age of the mother and general health and nutrition is
probably more of a factor than lack of access to medical care.
SYOTR
Larry C.

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
. ..

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 24-Nov-2004, "Keenan Wellar" wrote:

I can't think of any other
country where the sexual habits of the president would be more important
than the waging of war.

Well, that's the same country that enshrines guns in the Constitution
but considers a woman's bare breast to be a threat to children.

Mike

Ooo. That's a good one.

Also there's the opposition to stem cell research but support for the
death penalty.

Saw a CNN poll yesterday where 80% of the population thought it was OK for
gays and lesbians to serve in the military, but 55% thought that same-sex
marriages ought to be illegal.

--riverman

"Larry Cable" wrote in message
...
(Oci-One Kanubi)

Typed in Message-ID:

snipCheck out Japan: for 45% of our cost they manage to have 50% of our
infant mortality and a 5% greater life expectancy.

Please note that there are other demographic elements that partial account
for
those numbers. If you will note that most of the countries with real low
infant
mortality rates are also countries with low immigrant populations and
highly
homogenous populations.

Umm, that boat won't float. What you said (if a country has low immigration
rates and homogenous populations, it has low IMR), implies that the
contrapositive is true, specifically that if a country has high IMR, it
should have high immigration rates and heterogenous population). Yet, none
of the top 30 infant-mortality rate countries meet those standards.

178.Madagascar 80.21deaths/1,000 live births
179.Azerbaijan 82.41deaths/1,000 live births
180.Lesotho 86.21deaths/1,000 live births
181.Benin 86.76deaths/1,000 live births
182.Uganda 87.90deaths/1,000 live births
183.Laos 88.94deaths/1,000 live births
184.Equatorial Guinea 89.02deaths/1,000 live births
185.Central African Republic 93.30deaths/1,000 live births
186.Guinea 93.30deaths/1,000 live births
187.Congo, Republic of the 95.34deaths/1,000 live births
188.Chad 95.74deaths/1,000 live births
189.Congo, Democratic Republic of the 96.56deaths/1,000 live births
190.Cote d'Ivoire 98.33deaths/1,000 live births
191.Zambia 99.29deaths/1,000 live births
192.Burkina Faso 99.78deaths/1,000 live births
193.Rwanda 102.61deaths/1,000 live births
194.Ethiopia 103.22deaths/1,000 live births
195.Tanzania 103.68deaths/1,000 live births
196.Bhutan 104.68deaths/1,000 live births
197.Malawi 105.15deaths/1,000 live births
198.Djibouti 106.96deaths/1,000 live births
199.Guinea-Bissau 110.29deaths/1,000 live births
200.Tajikistan 113.43deaths/1,000 live births
201.Mali 119.20deaths/1,000 live births
202.Somalia 120.34deaths/1,000 live births
203.Niger 123.64deaths/1,000 live births
204.Liberia 132.18deaths/1,000 live births
205.Afghanistan 142.48deaths/1,000 live births
206.Sierra Leone 146.86deaths/1,000 live births
207.Angola 193.82deaths/1,000 live births
208.Mozambique 199.00deaths/1,000 live births

These guys all have low immigration, and very homogenous populations.

I got no bone to pick with the rest of your post. :-)

--riverman


The other item to note is that we spend vast amounts on catastrophic care
for
terminal patients, especially elderly cancer and heart patients. Is that
true
in the socialized medicine countries?

The real problem is that corporate paid insurance has disconnected medical
care
from market values. Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Suppose
that
instead of health insurance you had grocery insurance. Now when you go to
the
store, since your cost is the same whether you are frugal or not, are you
going
to buy the chicken or ribeye steak?
Most people will by the ribeye, and stick to the brand names instead of
shopping for their best value.

In my industry there a many, if not most that are self insured. One client
of
mine required a minor but costly surgery that he would have to pay a good
portion of out of his own pocket. He actually shopped his doctors and
hospitals
and found that by having the procedure done at a smaller hospital about 30
miles away, he saved half on the procedure. Have anyone else here ever
done
that? We shop for value in are cars and boats, but go the the most
expensive
doctors.


SYOTR
Larry C.

"riverman" wrote in message
...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
. ..

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 24-Nov-2004, "Keenan Wellar" wrote:

I can't think of any other
country where the sexual habits of the president would be more
important
than the waging of war.

Well, that's the same country that enshrines guns in the Constitution
but considers a woman's bare breast to be a threat to children.

Mike

Ooo. That's a good one.

Also there's the opposition to stem cell research but support for the
death penalty.

Saw a CNN poll yesterday where 80% of the population thought it was OK for
gays and lesbians to serve in the military, but 55% thought that same-sex
marriages ought to be illegal.

--riverman

Hunh.

Newsflash to the 20%...gays and lesbians are already serving in the
military, they just serve their country living in fear that they'll be
"outed" for being who they are.

Newsflash to the 55%...the times they are a-changin'. You managed to get
used to black people sitting at both ends of the bus, you'll live through
this too.

"riverman"

typed in Message-ID:

These guys all have low immigration, and very homogenous populations.

I got no bone to pick with the rest of your post. :-)

--riverman

Alright, let me qualify that remark. In industrialized nations, countries with
low immigration tend to have lower infant mortality. Happy now :^).
SYOTR
Larry C.

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDCAD48B.12669%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article et, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 11:02 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCAAD29.1265C%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article t, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 9:17 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCA9664.12630%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article G09pd.15037$Gw.11523@trndny09, No Spam at
wrote on 11/24/04 6:43 PM:

Well that is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing. I would really like to understand
how
George W Bush could be less evil than John Kerry. I mean, I watch
George
with one of his little speeches where he makes an obnoxious statement
and
then goes "heh heh heh" with that evil grin....it just gives me the
willies!
====================
But a self-confessed war criminal doesn't phase you at all? Quite a
selective set of knee-jerks you have there, eh?

You mean because Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam?
=====================
No, stupid, because he admitted to participating in, and performing *war
crimes*. Did you miss that little part of his sordid past, or were you
just determined to not hear anything contrary to the 'good feelings' he
gave
you?

Yes, I'm aware. The entire US fiasco in Vietnam was a war crime.
=====================
No, fool. I'm talking on a personal level. *He* phisically participated
and admitted to performing acts that were war crimes with his own hands.
Not all in Vietnam could say that. That you continue to support a
self-admitted war criminal is what is creepy.


He's
honest. I know, that's not very presidential.
=================
ROTFLMAO Honest? What a hoot!



And he didn't give me "good feelings" actually. He's not very good at
that.
That makes him not very electable.

You really think that
equates to making Presidential decisions? It's particularly ironic
considering what Bush was doing while Kerry was in Vietnam.
==================
Pray tell, what would that have been, fool?

Fooling around mostly, yes.
=================
Dodge noted.

"Larry Cable" wrote in message
...
"riverman"

typed in Message-ID:

These guys all have low immigration, and very homogenous populations.

I got no bone to pick with the rest of your post. :-)

--riverman

Alright, let me qualify that remark. In industrialized nations, countries
with
low immigration tend to have lower infant mortality. Happy now :^).

Hey, I'm ALWAYS happy talking to you, Larry! :-)

And I think I know what you are meaning to imply: that homogenous
populations have lower infant mortality rates when compared to their peer
countries. And the implication might be that something about compatability
in the gene pool and the absence of 'exotic' or imported diseases, but in
actuality, I would also expect certain recessive genetic diseases to be more
expressed in a homogenous genepool. I think you gotta look deep and find
some supporting literature for your statement, because I'm not so sure its
true.

Here are the lowest 20 infant mortality countries:

1.Japan 3.30deaths/1,000 live births
2.Sweden 3.42deaths/1,000 live births
3.Iceland 3.50deaths/1,000 live births
4.Singapore 3.57deaths/1,000 live births
5.Finland 3.73deaths/1,000 live births
6.Norway 3.87deaths/1,000 live births
7.Andorra 4.06deaths/1,000 live births
8.Germany 4.23deaths/1,000 live births
9.Netherlands 4.26deaths/1,000 live births
10.Austria 4.33deaths/1,000 live births
11.Switzerland 4.36deaths/1,000 live births
12.France 4.37deaths/1,000 live births
13.Macau 4.42deaths/1,000 live births
14.Slovenia 4.42deaths/1,000 live births
15.Spain 4.54deaths/1,000 live births
16.Belgium 4.57deaths/1,000 live births
17.Luxembourg 4.65deaths/1,000 live births
18.Australia 4.83deaths/1,000 live births
19.Liechtenstein 4.85deaths/1,000 live births
20.Canada 4.88deaths/1,000 live births


Without a doubt, they are almost all 'developed' countries. But notice:
Singapore has the second highest immigration rate in the world, and its on
the list with the 4th lowest infant mortality rate. Of the others, its
difficult to find immigration rates in table form, but there are several
sites that underscore that European countries have some of the highest
immigration rates in the world, and they have the lowest infant mortality
rates. I know its not exactly what you are saying, but I don't see evidence
to support that there is any strong connection between immigration rates and
infant mortality. Sorry.

--riverman

On 25-Nov-2004, "riverman" wrote:

20.Canada 4.88deaths/1,000 live births


Without a doubt, they are almost all 'developed' countries. But notice:
Singapore has the second highest immigration rate in the world,

Canada's population growth is almost entirely due to immigration.
Over 50% of Toronto's population was born overseas. You're correct,
while there are some countries that fit Larry's criteria, there are
others that do not. Given the similarities in the US and Canada's
economic status and cultures, comparing these two should give an
indication that there's a problem in the US.

Mike

On 25-Nov-2004, ospam (Larry Cable) wrote:

Would a
doctor in Canada spend thousands or tens of thousands to extend the life of a
terminally ill patient? If they do ration health care, is this one of the
areas that they save? Remember, here they spend hundreds of thousands to give
liver transplants to 70 year old alcoholics.

That depends on the doctor. There are many examples of outrageous amounts
of $$ spent on terminally ill patients and others of patients being talked
into simpler treatments and special care to the end. I don't know of any
stats to back an assumption of either being dominant.

Mike

I will continue working on understanding who you are and why you made the
type of arrival in rbp as you did, as that will certainly underscore the
nature of our online relationship. But if you truly want to be a welcome
contributor here, and more importantly, if you truly want to be a recipient
of the wealth of info, insights, knowledge and camaraderie that is available
here, you will listen to what Wilko, myself, and others are telling you.

Respectfully, and with all sincerity:
--riverman

riverman, I was glad to hear from you, and that you are willing to
continue working on understanding who I am. I too, am working on
getting to know you all better as well.

At Wilko's encouragement, I did some searching on Dave Van, and have
gotten to know his board history, a little better as well, and his
last name. Sounds like he started posting back in 2000, after getting
into kayaking. His initiation was when out for a walk, he saw a
kayaker on a river in Chicago, and as they say, the rest was history.

Now that does not mean, that I know him, nor that we are friends, but
that we have common interest. It is as we share that common interest,
and get to know each other better, that we could even become good
friends. Matter of fact, what I hear is that he got a Kodiak, which
from the discussion, would fit my 6'2, 275 lbs, size 12 shoe, so I
will keep my eyes open for a used one to try out.

Friendship, to me is like an open door, you don't just walk in, but
knock first, and you may get a cup of coffee! But if the word seems
too familiar for you to feel comfortable, I can use the word penpal. I
have found our penpal relationsip already enlightening and
educational. Your international perspective is appreciated, and your
concerns regarding the environment are eye opening. I have already
been reading more, than I have read for a long time. It is not the
only world concern, but certainly a big one.

When I first came to this board, for info, I did not come expecting
friendship, or even an International penpal. If in barging in, I
jumped into a family squabble, that at the time was none of my
concern, I quickly and sincerely apologize. However, I understood that
the board is an open public affair, and the rules of engagement seemed
quite clear. So I engaged.

Now as I have gotten to know all of you a little better, and you know
me, I would look forward to being friends someday. And though I am not
really that much of a coffee drinker, I use the analogy to let you
know the pot is always hot. If in town, I would glad to set down
together, and if from the Congo, your discussion is always welcome.

As an Educator, you are probably familiar with the Meyers-Briggs
Personality Profile. When tested, I scored in the 98% as an ENTP. One
outstanding and well known ENTP was General Patton. You might not have
liked his politics, style, or his personality, but one thing about
him, you knew where he stood, and maybe not where he was going. But
you knew not to stand in his way. Sound familiar!

As far as the SuperGuru stuff, I actually prefer "riverman", so
riverman it is. I do not doubt your river experience, and certainly
entertain your insight and philosophy. In researching Dave Van, I came
across this quote:

riverman wrote:

And yet another tongue-in-cheek definition of technology is "stuff
that
didn't exist when you were a kid", and in that vein...who needs it?
:-)

--riverman

Life tends to get to complicated, and that is part of what is
appealing about paddling. It is basically done the same now, as for
thousands of years. But then there is always something new to learn,
have to have gear, and the hot spots to explore. But then isn't that
what life is about as well.

I have generally tried to distance myself from political discussions,
since in the late 60's when I was involved, and got burned. I was a
student, at Colo Sch of Mines, in 68-69. A classmate of mine, by the
name of Bill Schroeder, was a nice all American boy, was on an ROTC
scholarship. He was nice, but headed into the military and Vietnam. I
was on the other side, protesting the war. So though we were
classmates, we were on opposite sides and our paths did not cross all
that often, and I didn't really know him very well. Then in 1970, he
transfered from CSM, to KSU. He is now best known as one of the four
students killed at Kent State University on May 4,1970.

I had many other classmates who went to Vietnam, to fight and die, for
JFK, and LBJ. It was their war, not mine! Then along came Nixson, and
he promised and delivered, and eventually got us out of Vietnam. Yeah
there was Cambodia, and Loas, and we can discuss Nixons involving us
there, and POW-MIA, etc. But he finally brought the troops home, and I
was tired of it all, and just wanted to become part of the silent
majority. Not a political activist, not an environmentalist, just
silent and secure, protected by the Conservatives who at least do what
they say, instead of the Liberals who sing about making peace, and yet
took us into one of the longest dark periods of American history,
which has been throughly hashed so I won't go there.

Eventually we get to where we are today, and I (as a member of the
silent majority) have to make a decision of who I trust more to
conduct a war. Based on my past experience, I felt more comfortable
with the Conservative.

Then in my silent security, I am cruising around on the internet
checking out discussion groups about paddling, and I come across your
post. I had a rather visceral reaction that not only surprised myself,
but my wife, and you who were at the receiving end. Long latent
feelings and energy were stirred up, when I heard the discussion
putting down Bush. My security was being threatened by a perceived
threat, from enemies at home and abroad. So I fought back. I apologize
if I blind-sided you, just know that I have this reflex response to
threat.

So I am learning about you all, and you about me, and me about myself.
There are others much more informed about the issues than I. I do not
even pretend to know all the issues, but I will not let challenges go
unchallenged either. ENTPs dont have to have all the facts to go off
half-cocked! That our dark side.

So about that cup of coffee, the door is open, the welcome sign out,
and the pots hot! and oh yeah Dave, I was glad to get to know more
about you, and your paddling history. Especially special about walking
with your daughter. Enjoy and cherish those moments, of Life!!!

Respectfully, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

in article , rick etter at
wrote on 11/25/04 4:48 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDCAD48B.12669%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article et, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 11:02 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCAAD29.1265C%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article t, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 9:17 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCA9664.12630%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article G09pd.15037$Gw.11523@trndny09, No Spam at
wrote on 11/24/04 6:43 PM:

Well that is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing. I would really like to understand
how
George W Bush could be less evil than John Kerry. I mean, I watch
George
with one of his little speeches where he makes an obnoxious statement
and
then goes "heh heh heh" with that evil grin....it just gives me the
willies!
====================
But a self-confessed war criminal doesn't phase you at all? Quite a
selective set of knee-jerks you have there, eh?

You mean because Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam?
=====================
No, stupid, because he admitted to participating in, and performing *war
crimes*. Did you miss that little part of his sordid past, or were you
just determined to not hear anything contrary to the 'good feelings' he
gave
you?

Yes, I'm aware. The entire US fiasco in Vietnam was a war crime.
=====================
No, fool. I'm talking on a personal level. *He* phisically participated
and admitted to performing acts that were war crimes with his own hands.
Not all in Vietnam could say that.

The entire American adventure in Vietnam was a war crime. Young Americans,
including John Kerry, were sent there to kill people, many of them innocent
civilians.

That you continue to support a
self-admitted war criminal is what is creepy.

That you can't understand - or choose not to understand - the context is
what is scary and creepy. At least 49% of Americans who voted in the last
election didn't have the same problem, and I doubt many of the remaining 51%
had a problem figuring it out either.

He's
honest. I know, that's not very presidential.
=================
ROTFLMAO Honest? What a hoot!

Dodge noted.

in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/25/04 7:42 PM:

As an Educator, you are probably familiar with the Meyers-Briggs
Personality Profile. When tested, I scored in the 98% as an ENTP. One
outstanding and well known ENTP was General Patton. You might not have
liked his politics, style, or his personality, but one thing about
him, you knew where he stood, and maybe not where he was going. But
you knew not to stand in his way. Sound familiar!

He was a very bitter and unstable individual. Are those the characteristics
you are referring to? Because, clearly, you aren't all that bitter.

Of the others, its
difficult to find immigration rates in table form, but there are several
sites that underscore that European countries have some of the highest
immigration rates in the world, and they have the lowest infant mortality
rates. I know its not exactly what

you are saying, but I don't see evidence
to support that there is any strong connection between immigration rates and
infant mortality. Sorry.

Immigrant populations in the US tend to be at the bottom of the economic scale,
tend to come from backgrounds that did not have ready access to health care
and have a language barrier that often inhibits them from seeking care. Early
pregnancies, smoking, and alcohol use may be a factor.

In the US, one might even have to include the out migrants from the
economically depressed regions like Appalachia.

What I'm implying is that industrial societies that have stable and intergrated
(as in a functioning part of the culture) populations seem to have lower rates
of infant mortality. Although statistically, there isn't a lot of difference in
most of the top 50.
SYOTR
Larry C.

Michael Daly"

Canada's population growth is almost entirely due to immigration.
Over 50% of Toronto's population was born overseas. You're correct,
while there are some countries that fit Larry's criteria, there are
others that do not. Given the similarities in the US and Canada's
economic status and cultures, comparing these two should give an
indication that there's a problem in the US.

Mike



Might be important to look at where the immigrants are coming from and what
their economic status is when they arrive. Much of the immigration in the US
comes from Latin America and the Caribean Islands and is often the poor seeking
manual labor in the US. A good portion of it is illegals.


SYOTR
Larry C.

Keenan Wellar wrote in message news:BDCBF592.12717%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/25/04 7:42 PM:

As an Educator, you are probably familiar with the Meyers-Briggs
Personality Profile. When tested, I scored in the 98% as an ENTP. One
outstanding and well known ENTP was General Patton. You might not have
liked his politics, style, or his personality, but one thing about
him, you knew where he stood, and maybe not where he was going. But
you knew not to stand in his way. Sound familiar!

He was a very bitter and unstable individual. Are those the characteristics
you are referring to? Because, clearly, you aren't all that bitter.

Keenan, it is encouraging that you do not perceive me as being bitter!
Though you say nothing about unstable. As a kayaker, you understand
the necessity of stability, especially secondary;)

I understand that you were primarily speaking of Patton, who very well
may have been bitter and unstable. As an ENTP, his Extravert side
could have turned very negetive when taken out of the loop of
significance, that he had enjoyed during the war. Extroverts like to
be near the center of activity.

If you are interested, a couple of web sites with relevant info.

http://www.unspun.us/archives/000118.html

http://www.brunel.ac.uk/~bustcfj/cjmeyers.html

Many more available, google "Meyers-Briggs" ENTP

Thanks for asking, Tinkerntom, aka Knesisknosis, Life, Live it.


BTW, as a good ENTP, I had written a rather lengthy thesis to your
simple question (Surprise, Surprise), and then Being a Good ENTP, and
not paying attention to all the facts, I pushed the wrong button and
canceled it! instead of the post button. Probably was meant to be.
TNT

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDCBF4B2.12716%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article , rick etter
at
wrote on 11/25/04 4:48 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCAD48B.12669%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article et, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 11:02 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCAAD29.1265C%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article t, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 9:17 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCA9664.12630%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article G09pd.15037$Gw.11523@trndny09, No Spam at
wrote on 11/24/04 6:43 PM:

Well that is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing. I would really like to understand
how
George W Bush could be less evil than John Kerry. I mean, I watch
George
with one of his little speeches where he makes an obnoxious
statement
and
then goes "heh heh heh" with that evil grin....it just gives me the
willies!
====================
But a self-confessed war criminal doesn't phase you at all? Quite a
selective set of knee-jerks you have there, eh?

You mean because Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam?
=====================
No, stupid, because he admitted to participating in, and performing
*war
crimes*. Did you miss that little part of his sordid past, or were
you
just determined to not hear anything contrary to the 'good feelings' he
gave
you?

Yes, I'm aware. The entire US fiasco in Vietnam was a war crime.
=====================
No, fool. I'm talking on a personal level. *He* phisically participated
and admitted to performing acts that were war crimes with his own hands.
Not all in Vietnam could say that.

The entire American adventure in Vietnam was a war crime. Young Americans,
including John Kerry, were sent there to kill people, many of them
innocent
civilians.
==================
Nice try fool. Keep tap dancing. The whole of the US military did not
commit crimes on a personal basis. You can try to rewrite what ever you
want, it won't make your lys and delusion real though.



That you continue to support a
self-admitted war criminal is what is creepy.

That you can't understand - or choose not to understand - the context is
what is scary and creepy. At least 49% of Americans who voted in the last
election didn't have the same problem, and I doubt many of the remaining
51%
had a problem figuring it out either.
===============
You have no clue. The majority of the US population saw things quite
clearly.




He's
honest. I know, that's not very presidential.
=================
ROTFLMAO Honest? What a hoot!

Dodge noted.
==================
What adodge fool? The only dodging here is your continued tap dancing.
You can't address the fact that kerry personally committed war crimes, and
that *you* supported a war criminal. Quite telling really about the level
of hate in many people.

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
...
Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCBF592.12717%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/25/04 7:42 PM:

As an Educator, you are probably familiar with the Meyers-Briggs
Personality Profile. When tested, I scored in the 98% as an ENTP. One
outstanding and well known ENTP was General Patton. You might not have
liked his politics, style, or his personality, but one thing about
him, you knew where he stood, and maybe not where he was going. But
you knew not to stand in his way. Sound familiar!

He was a very bitter and unstable individual. Are those the
characteristics
you are referring to? Because, clearly, you aren't all that bitter.

Keenan, it is encouraging that you do not perceive me as being bitter!

Uh. Great.

Though you say nothing about unstable. As a kayaker, you understand
the necessity of stability, especially secondary;)

I think you need a lot of work on primary stability. Secondary stability may
well be a distant an unachievable goal. I'll let you know if I perceive
anything in that direction.

I understand that you were primarily speaking of Patton, who very well
may have been bitter and unstable. As an ENTP, his Extravert side
could have turned very negetive when taken out of the loop of
significance, that he had enjoyed during the war. Extroverts like to
be near the center of activity.

No kidding. I suppose introverts tend to shun the spotlight then? So it's
almost as if the "extro" part of the word means, like, "out there" and the
"intro" means, like "inside" or something.

"rick etter" wrote in message
k.net...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDCBF4B2.12716%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article , rick etter
at
wrote on 11/25/04 4:48 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCAD48B.12669%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article et, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 11:02 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCAAD29.1265C%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article t, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 9:17 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCA9664.12630%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article G09pd.15037$Gw.11523@trndny09, No Spam at
wrote on 11/24/04 6:43 PM:

Well that is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing. I would really like to understand
how
George W Bush could be less evil than John Kerry. I mean, I watch
George
with one of his little speeches where he makes an obnoxious
statement
and
then goes "heh heh heh" with that evil grin....it just gives me the
willies!
====================
But a self-confessed war criminal doesn't phase you at all? Quite
a
selective set of knee-jerks you have there, eh?

You mean because Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam?
=====================
No, stupid, because he admitted to participating in, and performing
*war
crimes*. Did you miss that little part of his sordid past, or were
you
just determined to not hear anything contrary to the 'good feelings'
he
gave
you?

Yes, I'm aware. The entire US fiasco in Vietnam was a war crime.
=====================
No, fool. I'm talking on a personal level. *He* phisically
participated
and admitted to performing acts that were war crimes with his own hands.
Not all in Vietnam could say that.

The entire American adventure in Vietnam was a war crime. Young
Americans,
including John Kerry, were sent there to kill people, many of them
innocent
civilians.
==================
Nice try fool. Keep tap dancing. The whole of the US military did not
commit crimes on a personal basis. You can try to rewrite what ever you
want, it won't make your lys and delusion real though.

It would depend on the duties they were given.

How many US soldiers in Vietnam do you think engaged in exactly the same
type of activities as John Kerry?

That you continue to support a
self-admitted war criminal is what is creepy.

That you can't understand - or choose not to understand - the context is
what is scary and creepy. At least 49% of Americans who voted in the last
election didn't have the same problem, and I doubt many of the remaining
51%
had a problem figuring it out either.
===============
You have no clue. The majority of the US population saw things quite
clearly.

Is that right? So of the 49% that voted for John Kerry, how many of them did
so with the thought in mind that they were electing a war criminal? How many
of the 51% voted against him because they thought they were electing a war
criminal?

I am confident that both figures together would not add up to the total
number of American voters who see George Bush as a war criminal for blowing
the crap out of another country on false pretenses.

He's
honest. I know, that's not very presidential.
=================
ROTFLMAO Honest? What a hoot!

Dodge noted.
==================
What adodge fool? The only dodging here is your continued tap dancing.
You can't address the fact that kerry personally committed war crimes, and
that *you* supported a war criminal. Quite telling really about the level
of hate in many people.

I'm not even an American voter, and I did not support John Kerry. I do
understand the context of the war in Vietnam and commend Kerr for his
honesty in coming forward to talk about what went on there.

This contrasts sharply with George Jr and his dishonesty in waging war on
another country under false pretenses.

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
. ..

"rick etter" wrote in message
k.net...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message news:BDCBF4B2.12716%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article , rick etter
at
wrote on 11/25/04 4:48 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCAD48B.12669%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article et, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 11:02 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCAAD29.1265C%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article t, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/24/04 9:17 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDCA9664.12630%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article G09pd.15037$Gw.11523@trndny09, No Spam at
wrote on 11/24/04 6:43 PM:

Well that is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing. I would really like to
understand
how
George W Bush could be less evil than John Kerry. I mean, I watch
George
with one of his little speeches where he makes an obnoxious
statement
and
then goes "heh heh heh" with that evil grin....it just gives me
the
willies!
====================
But a self-confessed war criminal doesn't phase you at all? Quite
a
selective set of knee-jerks you have there, eh?

You mean because Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam?
=====================
No, stupid, because he admitted to participating in, and performing
*war
crimes*. Did you miss that little part of his sordid past, or were
you
just determined to not hear anything contrary to the 'good feelings'
he
gave
you?

Yes, I'm aware. The entire US fiasco in Vietnam was a war crime.
=====================
No, fool. I'm talking on a personal level. *He* phisically
participated
and admitted to performing acts that were war crimes with his own
hands.
Not all in Vietnam could say that.

The entire American adventure in Vietnam was a war crime. Young
Americans,
including John Kerry, were sent there to kill people, many of them
innocent
civilians.
==================
Nice try fool. Keep tap dancing. The whole of the US military did not
commit crimes on a personal basis. You can try to rewrite what ever you
want, it won't make your lys and delusion real though.

It would depend on the duties they were given.

How many US soldiers in Vietnam do you think engaged in exactly the same
type of activities as John Kerry?

That you continue to support a
self-admitted war criminal is what is creepy.

That you can't understand - or choose not to understand - the context is
what is scary and creepy. At least 49% of Americans who voted in the
last
election didn't have the same problem, and I doubt many of the remaining
51%
had a problem figuring it out either.
===============
You have no clue. The majority of the US population saw things quite
clearly.

Is that right? So of the 49% that voted for John Kerry, how many of them
did so with the thought in mind that they were electing a war criminal?
How many of the 51% voted against him because they thought they were
electing a war criminal?

I am confident that both figures together would not add up to the total
number of American voters who see George Bush as a war criminal for
blowing the crap out of another country on false pretenses.

He's
honest. I know, that's not very presidential.
=================
ROTFLMAO Honest? What a hoot!

Dodge noted.
==================
What adodge fool? The only dodging here is your continued tap dancing.
You can't address the fact that kerry personally committed war crimes,
and that *you* supported a war criminal. Quite telling really about the
level of hate in many people.

I'm not even an American voter, and I did not support John Kerry. I do
understand the context of the war in Vietnam and commend Kerr for his
honesty in coming forward to talk about what went on there.
======================
You understand nothinmg as your diatribes have proven...



This contrasts sharply with George Jr and his dishonesty in waging war on
another country under false pretenses.
=================
See, I rest my case. You have nothing but spew, hatred and lys...

Has anyone else noted the inverse correlation between relevance to
paddling and how long a thread goes on around here?

Howcumissat?













































Not complainin', exactly, just observin'.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Keenan, an addenum to my previous post,

I spent quite a bit of time, googling Keenan Wellar, and most all
results on 10 or more pages, seem to apply to you. You are a prolific
and proficient poster on a number of boards, with many interest and
activities. I am not sure how you find time to be involved in the nit
picking that has gone on this thread.

You are apparently well educated, and well above average intelligence.
So I am wondering still, if you are really interested in environmental
issues, and specifically what your suggestions and recommendations
would be?

I am just trying to get the thread back on topic, since I don't find
the name calling and nitpicking very enlightening, and I expect that
you have a lot more quality content that you could contribute.

I appreciated your trip reports on your web site, with some really
good pictures, maps, and colorful descriptions of your trips. Although
maybe I should attribute and give credit to Julie since most was from
her perspective. You also have a nonprofit business that provides a
very necessary community service. All this would indicate to me that
you are a sensitive and thoughtful person, so why all the bull
headedness that has been displayed on this thread.

Please understand, that I ask this question, from the standpoint that
I have not had the privilege of getting to know you over the last four
years of your posting to the RBP. Others may know you and be able to
read meaning into your comments, but I lack that insight.

You say that you are not anti-American, but anti-hate. But it seems
that your comments are hateful, and hate driven. Now from what I read
elsewhere about you, I would doubt that you would want that image to
stand, so can you please clarify.

Also, it appears that despite your denial, that you are indeed
anti-American.
Many of your comment are dispariging, and none that I could find,
friendly. This was curious to me as I am learning more about our
neighbors to the north, Canada. Again understand, that I would be the
first to acknowledge that I personally do not know much of anything
about you and your country, which is my own failing, and which through
this board, and this thread, have become painfully aware. I am seeking
a growing awareness, and apologize to you for any unfriendliness I may
have conveyed to you.

You also seem to have a great sensitivity to the plight of the Gender
Dysphoric, and I wondered if this is due to professional awareness, or
do you have personal contacts that you are defending and speaking for.
Could you also then answer, what your solutions would be in Canada,
and as you understand, what would work in USA. I personally have
contact with a number of individuals who though I don't agree with
their lifestyle choices, I find them to be rather agreeable, engaging,
and enjoyable to be around. Not nearly as hung up and strident as some
of the straights that I deal with, but again that is and individual
issue, for there is plenty of hate to go around on both sides of the
issue.

Briefly, also there seems to be some issues with religion,
Christianity, and Jesus. I realize, that this is quite personal, but I
would appreciate clarification here or in personal email if and as you
choose.

Now I only ask these questions, because these issues have come up in
this thread as you responded to them. Feel free to further address
them as you see fit, or direct my attention, to another sourse of
information, if you want me to more clearly understand where you are
coming from. I believe they are all environmental issues since they
have to do with the world in which we live, and how we care for the
world, and the people around us. If you would prefer to start another
thread, I would be open to that, and be watching for your response.

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka Knesisknosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Keenan, an addenum to my previous post,

I spent quite a bit of time, googling Keenan Wellar, and most all
results on 10 or more pages, seem to apply to you.

FYI, there is no other!

Steve Cramer wrote:

Has anyone else noted the inverse correlation between relevance to
paddling and how long a thread goes on around here?

Howcumissat?













































Not complainin', exactly, just observin'.

big grin

Could it be that paddlers not on the water are trying to get rid of
their excess energy (and frustration at not being able to paddle) elsewhere?

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol. I realize
that you have not received the post yet that I sent earlier, and this
may pass your response in cyber space. However, this recent post by
you continues to demonstrate the high level of vitrol present in your
post, you need to check your dipstick. High vitrol, leads to
bitterness, resentment and anger, all of which seems to be present. I
hope that you can find a less public dumping ground than a public
forum to work out your issues, though if you choose to continue here,
you are certainly free to do so, and reap the commentary of Retter and
company.

I cherish your civil and professional response which I am sure you are
capable of. The one liners, and childish logic demean your
credentials. Retter needles you as being a fool. I don't perceive you
as a fool, so why do you persist in presenting yourself as one?

Even in this last post of yours, you delve into the depths of the
meaning of extro and intro, and totally miss, or should I say ignore
the true meaning of my post. And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

Wilko wrote in message ...
Steve Cramer wrote:

Has anyone else noted the inverse correlation between relevance to
paddling and how long a thread goes on around here?

Howcumissat?













































Not complainin', exactly, just observin'.

big grin

Could it be that paddlers not on the water are trying to get rid of
their excess energy (and frustration at not being able to paddle) elsewhere?

Now you got me ROTF.... TnT

in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol. I realize
that you have not received the post yet that I sent earlier, and this
may pass your response in cyber space. However, this recent post by
you continues to demonstrate the high level of vitrol present in your
post, you need to check your dipstick. High vitrol, leads to
bitterness, resentment and anger, all of which seems to be present. I
hope that you can find a less public dumping ground than a public
forum to work out your issues, though if you choose to continue here,
you are certainly free to do so, and reap the commentary of Retter and
company.

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I cherish your civil and professional response which I am sure you are
capable of. The one liners, and childish logic demean your
credentials. Retter needles you as being a fool. I don't perceive you
as a fool, so why do you persist in presenting yourself as one?

Sometimes in order to communicate with a child you need to speak in a
child's language.

Even in this last post of yours, you delve into the depths of the
meaning of extro and intro, and totally miss, or should I say ignore
the true meaning of my post.

I found it...odd...that you felt the need to explain what an extrovert is.

And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

I have no idea as to your stability outside of this forum. It may simply be
your writing style that leaves an unstable impression. To be honest, you
come across as though you are part of some sort of cult.

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

That particular sig line doesn't help alleviate that impression either.

Keenan Wellar wrote in message news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol. I realize
that you have not received the post yet that I sent earlier, and this
may pass your response in cyber space. However, this recent post by
you continues to demonstrate the high level of vitrol present in your
post, you need to check your dipstick. High vitrol, leads to
bitterness, resentment and anger, all of which seems to be present. I
hope that you can find a less public dumping ground than a public
forum to work out your issues, though if you choose to continue here,
you are certainly free to do so, and reap the commentary of Retter and
company.

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I misspelled the word "vitriol" above, defined as in caustic quality,
esp. virulence of feeling or of speech. So probably I left you
wondering what I was speaking of when I mentioned "vitrol." I hope
this clarifies what I was talking about. But if it does not, please
let me qualify further. Often times as you respond, it appears that
you are bitter, angry, and resentful. I assume from my googling, that
you are in your 30s, though it is not really important. If you
continue with this vitriol, someday you will be a bitter old man!

Now having said that, I detect a lowering of the vitriol even in the
last couple of post, and look forward to having a reasonable
conversation.


I cherish your civil and professional response which I am sure you are
capable of. The one liners, and childish logic demean your
credentials. Retter needles you as being a fool. I don't perceive you
as a fool, so why do you persist in presenting yourself as one?

Sometimes in order to communicate with a child you need to speak in a
child's language.

I assume you are speaking of your discussions with Retter. I will also
assume the two of you have met before, so you may actually be the best
of friends. For that reason I will not come between you, and will let
you work it out with him.


Even in this last post of yours, you delve into the depths of the
meaning of extro and intro, and totally miss, or should I say ignore
the true meaning of my post.

I found it...odd...that you felt the need to explain what an extrovert is.

I was not pointing out the difference between "extro and intro" so
much as anwering your question as to why Patton is perceived now as
bitter and unstable. His personality shifted when he was no longer in
control. I am sure that you know the difference between the two words
as most readers here would, but I did not want to assume all
understood the dynamic of the shift from an ENTP to an INTP, or worse,
INTJ. You from your professional training may be familiar with these
nuances, but I did not want to assume that either, since I do not know
your exact professional credentials. Maybe I should do some more
googling. In as much as there is only one of you, it is pretty easy!
Luckily for us!



And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries". Of course
that was not the word used, but a Souix language word has been
translated as contraries.
The contrary wasn't particularly mean, but went through life doing
things backwards. He walked backwards, and took dirt baths, and wore
his/her clothes backwards, and even learned to talk backwards. Food
that was normally eaten cold, was eaten hot, and vice versus. You
begin to get the point!

The contraries were actually fearsome warriors, because at the time
the conflicting tribes were not so much interested in killing their
enemy, as in counting coup. In the heat of battle, the bravest would
try to get close enough to the adversary to just touch him, and then
get away. If successful they would then capture a part of the spirit
of the one who was touched.

Well, when the contrary came riding into battle, riding backwards. It
would so freak out the other side, who didn't want anything to do with
him, they would often just flee the battlefield. Lest they get touched
by and become under the influence of the contrary spirit.

Now in our society, we would put these crazy folks away, and lock them
up. However, for his own people at that time, he was treated as a
hero, and lived an elevated position in the tribe. Often times, the
men dressed as women, and the women as men. And they usually expressed
the opposite sexual trait as well. Though even that served an accepted
practice and need in the tribe as well. The Souix did not look down
upon the homosexual, but again elevated him because of his dual
spirit.

Now all this has to do with you, if you are contrary because that is
the way you are, or because of a mean spirit. I hope you are not mean,
and that does not imply that any of the rest of the discription
applies either. We are in a different place and a different time.
However, I believe that there is still lots of latitude for personal
expression!

The above description came from the Souix story book, Hanto Yo, which
was originally written in the Souix Language, on a Buffaloe Skin. It
eventually was translated, for publication. Parts of it does sound
familiar to what has gone on this thread, and others, where a bunch of
contrary nitpicking is going on, as if we are trying to count coup on
the other poster, and we prevail when they all leave when things get
too contrary.


I have no idea as to your stability outside of this forum. It may simply be
your writing style that leaves an unstable impression. To be honest, you
come across as though you are part of some sort of cult.

As far as writing style, I understand, that it may appear unstable,
for you have seen me take different tacks from time to time. I don't
know if you have done any sailing, but tacking is done to make headway
into an opposing and changing wind. And there has been some wild wind
on this thread about wild places. Tacking was necessary, not for the
purpose of deceit, but inorder to arrive where we are today. I know
that I am still the International Man of Mystery, but we are getting
to know each other better, as the mystery is revealed. Yeah...
Baaby!!!!



Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

That particular sig line doesn't help alleviate that impression either.

I would be very interested in your definition of a cult, and what is
your impression of my sig line, how does it bother you?

Respectfully, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/27/04 8:47 AM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol. I realize
that you have not received the post yet that I sent earlier, and this
may pass your response in cyber space. However, this recent post by
you continues to demonstrate the high level of vitrol present in your
post, you need to check your dipstick. High vitrol, leads to
bitterness, resentment and anger, all of which seems to be present. I
hope that you can find a less public dumping ground than a public
forum to work out your issues, though if you choose to continue here,
you are certainly free to do so, and reap the commentary of Retter and
company.

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I misspelled the word "vitriol" above, defined as in caustic quality,
esp. virulence of feeling or of speech. So probably I left you
wondering what I was speaking of when I mentioned "vitrol." I hope
this clarifies what I was talking about. But if it does not, please
let me qualify further. Often times as you respond, it appears that
you are bitter, angry, and resentful. I assume from my googling, that
you are in your 30s, though it is not really important. If you
continue with this vitriol, someday you will be a bitter old man!

The problem was not your spelling.

Now that you have clarified, I thank you for your misplaced concern.

Now having said that, I detect a lowering of the vitriol even in the
last couple of post, and look forward to having a reasonable
conversation.

That would depend on whether or not you will be speaking within the bounds
of reason.


I cherish your civil and professional response which I am sure you are
capable of. The one liners, and childish logic demean your
credentials. Retter needles you as being a fool. I don't perceive you
as a fool, so why do you persist in presenting yourself as one?

Sometimes in order to communicate with a child you need to speak in a
child's language.

I assume you are speaking of your discussions with Retter. I will also
assume the two of you have met before, so you may actually be the best
of friends. For that reason I will not come between you, and will let
you work it out with him.

Uh...how to respond in the positive fashion you crave without reinforcing
the strange conclusions...how's this:

Thank you for understanding that my communications with others are none of
your business.

Even in this last post of yours, you delve into the depths of the
meaning of extro and intro, and totally miss, or should I say ignore
the true meaning of my post.

I found it...odd...that you felt the need to explain what an extrovert is.

I was not pointing out the difference between "extro and intro" so
much as anwering your question as to why Patton is perceived now as
bitter and unstable. His personality shifted when he was no longer in
control. I am sure that you know the difference between the two words
as most readers here would, but I did not want to assume all
understood the dynamic of the shift from an ENTP to an INTP, or worse,
INTJ. You from your professional training may be familiar with these
nuances, but I did not want to assume that either, since I do not know
your exact professional credentials. Maybe I should do some more
googling. In as much as there is only one of you, it is pretty easy!
Luckily for us!

Yeah, great.

And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries". Of course
that was not the word used, but a Souix language word has been
translated as contraries.
The contrary wasn't particularly mean, but went through life doing
things backwards. He walked backwards, and took dirt baths, and wore
his/her clothes backwards, and even learned to talk backwards. Food
that was normally eaten cold, was eaten hot, and vice versus. You
begin to get the point!

The contraries were actually fearsome warriors, because at the time
the conflicting tribes were not so much interested in killing their
enemy, as in counting coup. In the heat of battle, the bravest would
try to get close enough to the adversary to just touch him, and then
get away. If successful they would then capture a part of the spirit
of the one who was touched.

Well, when the contrary came riding into battle, riding backwards. It
would so freak out the other side, who didn't want anything to do with
him, they would often just flee the battlefield. Lest they get touched
by and become under the influence of the contrary spirit.

Now in our society, we would put these crazy folks away, and lock them
up. However, for his own people at that time, he was treated as a
hero, and lived an elevated position in the tribe. Often times, the
men dressed as women, and the women as men. And they usually expressed
the opposite sexual trait as well. Though even that served an accepted
practice and need in the tribe as well. The Souix did not look down
upon the homosexual, but again elevated him because of his dual
spirit.

Now all this has to do with you, if you are contrary because that is
the way you are, or because of a mean spirit. I hope you are not mean,
and that does not imply that any of the rest of the discription
applies either. We are in a different place and a different time.
However, I believe that there is still lots of latitude for personal
expression!

The above description came from the Souix story book, Hanto Yo, which
was originally written in the Souix Language, on a Buffaloe Skin. It
eventually was translated, for publication. Parts of it does sound
familiar to what has gone on this thread, and others, where a bunch of
contrary nitpicking is going on, as if we are trying to count coup on
the other poster, and we prevail when they all leave when things get
too contrary.

That's all very fascinating, but in a fashion that seems typical for you,
you have failed to consider that it may be you who is riding backwards!

I have no idea as to your stability outside of this forum. It may simply be
your writing style that leaves an unstable impression. To be honest, you
come across as though you are part of some sort of cult.

As far as writing style, I understand, that it may appear unstable,
for you have seen me take different tacks from time to time. I don't
know if you have done any sailing, but tacking is done to make headway
into an opposing and changing wind. And there has been some wild wind
on this thread about wild places. Tacking was necessary, not for the
purpose of deceit, but inorder to arrive where we are today. I know
that I am still the International Man of Mystery, but we are getting
to know each other better, as the mystery is revealed. Yeah...
Baaby!!!!

Have you ever worked for a carpet cleaning company at which time you went by
the name "Tanya?"

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

That particular sig line doesn't help alleviate that impression either.

I would be very interested in your definition of a cult

I'd prefer not to have a discussion about the definition of cults.

From the way you write I picture you with a permanent smile and a vacant
stare.

and what is
your impression of my sig line, how does it bother you?

Respectfully, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

It doesn't "bother" me it just adds to your cultish personality.

Keenan Wellar wrote in message news:BDCE0FAD.12800%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/27/04 8:47 AM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol. I realize
that you have not received the post yet that I sent earlier, and this
may pass your response in cyber space. However, this recent post by
you continues to demonstrate the high level of vitrol present in your
post, you need to check your dipstick. High vitrol, leads to
bitterness, resentment and anger, all of which seems to be present. I
hope that you can find a less public dumping ground than a public
forum to work out your issues, though if you choose to continue here,
you are certainly free to do so, and reap the commentary of Retter and
company.

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I misspelled the word "vitriol" above, defined as in caustic quality,
esp. virulence of feeling or of speech. So probably I left you
wondering what I was speaking of when I mentioned "vitrol." I hope
this clarifies what I was talking about. But if it does not, please
let me qualify further. Often times as you respond, it appears that
you are bitter, angry, and resentful. I assume from my googling, that
you are in your 30s, though it is not really important. If you
continue with this vitriol, someday you will be a bitter old man!

The problem was not your spelling.

Now that you have clarified, I thank you for your misplaced concern.

Now having said that, I detect a lowering of the vitriol even in the
last couple of post, and look forward to having a reasonable
conversation.

That would depend on whether or not you will be speaking within the bounds
of reason.

Reason for one, may be madness for the other, but we can try!


I cherish your civil and professional response which I am sure you are
capable of. The one liners, and childish logic demean your
credentials. Retter needles you as being a fool. I don't perceive you
as a fool, so why do you persist in presenting yourself as one?

Sometimes in order to communicate with a child you need to speak in a
child's language.

I assume you are speaking of your discussions with Retter. I will also
assume the two of you have met before, so you may actually be the best
of friends. For that reason I will not come between you, and will let
you work it out with him.

Uh...how to respond in the positive fashion you crave without reinforcing
the strange conclusions...how's this:

Thank you for understanding that my communications with others are none of
your business.


Keenan, if you post publicly, they become public business. However
being civil, we turn away from someone ****ing in public, to allow
them their public indecency. I will be glad to allow you and any
others to continue your ****ing contest, but I will exercise my
privilege of not having to watch!


Even in this last post of yours, you delve into the depths of the
meaning of extro and intro, and totally miss, or should I say ignore
the true meaning of my post.

I found it...odd...that you felt the need to explain what an extrovert is.

I was not pointing out the difference between "extro and intro" so
much as anwering your question as to why Patton is perceived now as
bitter and unstable. His personality shifted when he was no longer in
control. I am sure that you know the difference between the two words
as most readers here would, but I did not want to assume all
understood the dynamic of the shift from an ENTP to an INTP, or worse,
INTJ. You from your professional training may be familiar with these
nuances, but I did not want to assume that either, since I do not know
your exact professional credentials. Maybe I should do some more
googling. In as much as there is only one of you, it is pretty easy!
Luckily for us!

Yeah, great.

Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg



And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries". Of course
that was not the word used, but a Souix language word has been
translated as contraries.
The contrary wasn't particularly mean, but went through life doing
things backwards. He walked backwards, and took dirt baths, and wore
his/her clothes backwards, and even learned to talk backwards. Food
that was normally eaten cold, was eaten hot, and vice versus. You
begin to get the point!

The contraries were actually fearsome warriors, because at the time
the conflicting tribes were not so much interested in killing their
enemy, as in counting coup. In the heat of battle, the bravest would
try to get close enough to the adversary to just touch him, and then
get away. If successful they would then capture a part of the spirit
of the one who was touched.

Well, when the contrary came riding into battle, riding backwards. It
would so freak out the other side, who didn't want anything to do with
him, they would often just flee the battlefield. Lest they get touched
by and become under the influence of the contrary spirit.

Now in our society, we would put these crazy folks away, and lock them
up. However, for his own people at that time, he was treated as a
hero, and lived an elevated position in the tribe. Often times, the
men dressed as women, and the women as men. And they usually expressed
the opposite sexual trait as well. Though even that served an accepted
practice and need in the tribe as well. The Souix did not look down
upon the homosexual, but again elevated him because of his dual
spirit.

Now all this has to do with you, if you are contrary because that is
the way you are, or because of a mean spirit. I hope you are not mean,
and that does not imply that any of the rest of the discription
applies either. We are in a different place and a different time.
However, I believe that there is still lots of latitude for personal
expression!

The above description came from the Souix story book, Hanto Yo, which
was originally written in the Souix Language, on a Buffaloe Skin. It
eventually was translated, for publication. Parts of it does sound
familiar to what has gone on this thread, and others, where a bunch of
contrary nitpicking is going on, as if we are trying to count coup on
the other poster, and we prevail when they all leave when things get
too contrary.

That's all very fascinating, but in a fashion that seems typical for you,
you have failed to consider that it may be you who is riding backwards!


Again you are correct, as I may appear to be riding backwards to you.
It did not take Einstein to figure out that all is relative, the Souix
had it figured out a long time ago.


I have no idea as to your stability outside of this forum. It may simply be
your writing style that leaves an unstable impression. To be honest, you
come across as though you are part of some sort of cult.

As far as writing style, I understand, that it may appear unstable,
for you have seen me take different tacks from time to time. I don't
know if you have done any sailing, but tacking is done to make headway
into an opposing and changing wind. And there has been some wild wind
on this thread about wild places. Tacking was necessary, not for the
purpose of deceit, but inorder to arrive where we are today. I know
that I am still the International Man of Mystery, but we are getting
to know each other better, as the mystery is revealed. Yeah...
Baaby!!!!

Have you ever worked for a carpet cleaning company at which time you went by
the name "Tanya?"

Tanya sounds like a character, but no, I have never worked for a
carpet cleaning company, and I am not Tanya. In reading, I found that
you have quite a following, between Tanya, Louise, Sharon, and Sandra,
and almost 9000 post, you have made quite a name for yourself. I still
wonder what the secret is for such prolific postings, and that is just
on the usenet, to say nothing of the rest of your posting activity.

You must be the real superman to do this, and then carry on with your
regular schedule as Clark Kent! When do you ever get time to paddle?

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

That particular sig line doesn't help alleviate that impression either.

I would be very interested in your definition of a cult

I'd prefer not to have a discussion about the definition of cults.

From the way you write I picture you with a permanent smile and a vacant
stare.

and what is
your impression of my sig line, how does it bother you?

Respectfully, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

It doesn't "bother" me it just adds to your cultish personality.

You are again so right, I should start a cult where we are happy, and
only look for the good in others, and don't get down on all the
terrible things happening all the time. But instead we are excited to
be alive, and able to live with the faculties we have, to the fullest
of are capabilities. Making no excuses, and laughing allowed when we
screw up. We would even help each other out of the mud and muck of
life, when we fall down, instead of stepping on the neck of a fallen
comrade, and cursing their name. Yeah....Baaby, that's the kind of
cult I would want to belong in. How about you being the first convert,
all you have to do is start smiling! That really bugs people, they
wonder what you have been up to and if you joined some sort of a cult!
Then all you have to do is ask them to join as well. Now if you smiled
at this at all, you are in! and it is an immediate lifetime
membership, no application rejected!

Keep on smiling, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/28/04 1:10 PM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCE0FAD.12800%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/27/04 8:47 AM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol. I realize
that you have not received the post yet that I sent earlier, and this
may pass your response in cyber space. However, this recent post by
you continues to demonstrate the high level of vitrol present in your
post, you need to check your dipstick. High vitrol, leads to
bitterness, resentment and anger, all of which seems to be present. I
hope that you can find a less public dumping ground than a public
forum to work out your issues, though if you choose to continue here,
you are certainly free to do so, and reap the commentary of Retter and
company.

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I misspelled the word "vitriol" above, defined as in caustic quality,
esp. virulence of feeling or of speech. So probably I left you
wondering what I was speaking of when I mentioned "vitrol." I hope
this clarifies what I was talking about. But if it does not, please
let me qualify further. Often times as you respond, it appears that
you are bitter, angry, and resentful. I assume from my googling, that
you are in your 30s, though it is not really important. If you
continue with this vitriol, someday you will be a bitter old man!

The problem was not your spelling.

Now that you have clarified, I thank you for your misplaced concern.

Now having said that, I detect a lowering of the vitriol even in the
last couple of post, and look forward to having a reasonable
conversation.

That would depend on whether or not you will be speaking within the bounds
of reason.

Reason for one, may be madness for the other, but we can try!

Indeed.


I cherish your civil and professional response which I am sure you are
capable of. The one liners, and childish logic demean your
credentials. Retter needles you as being a fool. I don't perceive you
as a fool, so why do you persist in presenting yourself as one?

Sometimes in order to communicate with a child you need to speak in a
child's language.

I assume you are speaking of your discussions with Retter. I will also
assume the two of you have met before, so you may actually be the best
of friends. For that reason I will not come between you, and will let
you work it out with him.

Uh...how to respond in the positive fashion you crave without reinforcing
the strange conclusions...how's this:

Thank you for understanding that my communications with others are none of
your business.


Keenan, if you post publicly, they become public business.

Let me restate.

While you are obviously free to offer comments on anything you see here, the
idea that you might or might not come between myself and another, and that
you will "let me work it out" with someone else is a rather pompous
offering, in that I never asked you to mediate said communications, not did
I ever consider requesting such a contribution from you.

However
being civil, we turn away from someone ****ing in public, to allow
them their public indecency. I will be glad to allow you and any
others to continue your ****ing contest, but I will exercise my
privilege of not having to watch!

There are different forms of ****ing. I suggest your urine has soaked this
newsgroup rather thoroughly.

Even in this last post of yours, you delve into the depths of the
meaning of extro and intro, and totally miss, or should I say ignore
the true meaning of my post.

I found it...odd...that you felt the need to explain what an extrovert is.

I was not pointing out the difference between "extro and intro" so
much as anwering your question as to why Patton is perceived now as
bitter and unstable. His personality shifted when he was no longer in
control. I am sure that you know the difference between the two words
as most readers here would, but I did not want to assume all
understood the dynamic of the shift from an ENTP to an INTP, or worse,
INTJ. You from your professional training may be familiar with these
nuances, but I did not want to assume that either, since I do not know
your exact professional credentials. Maybe I should do some more
googling. In as much as there is only one of you, it is pretty easy!
Luckily for us!

Yeah, great.

Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries". Of course
that was not the word used, but a Souix language word has been
translated as contraries.
The contrary wasn't particularly mean, but went through life doing
things backwards. He walked backwards, and took dirt baths, and wore
his/her clothes backwards, and even learned to talk backwards. Food
that was normally eaten cold, was eaten hot, and vice versus. You
begin to get the point!

The contraries were actually fearsome warriors, because at the time
the conflicting tribes were not so much interested in killing their
enemy, as in counting coup. In the heat of battle, the bravest would
try to get close enough to the adversary to just touch him, and then
get away. If successful they would then capture a part of the spirit
of the one who was touched.

Well, when the contrary came riding into battle, riding backwards. It
would so freak out the other side, who didn't want anything to do with
him, they would often just flee the battlefield. Lest they get touched
by and become under the influence of the contrary spirit.

Now in our society, we would put these crazy folks away, and lock them
up. However, for his own people at that time, he was treated as a
hero, and lived an elevated position in the tribe. Often times, the
men dressed as women, and the women as men. And they usually expressed
the opposite sexual trait as well. Though even that served an accepted
practice and need in the tribe as well. The Souix did not look down
upon the homosexual, but again elevated him because of his dual
spirit.

Now all this has to do with you, if you are contrary because that is
the way you are, or because of a mean spirit. I hope you are not mean,
and that does not imply that any of the rest of the discription
applies either. We are in a different place and a different time.
However, I believe that there is still lots of latitude for personal
expression!

The above description came from the Souix story book, Hanto Yo, which
was originally written in the Souix Language, on a Buffaloe Skin. It
eventually was translated, for publication. Parts of it does sound
familiar to what has gone on this thread, and others, where a bunch of
contrary nitpicking is going on, as if we are trying to count coup on
the other poster, and we prevail when they all leave when things get
too contrary.

That's all very fascinating, but in a fashion that seems typical for you,
you have failed to consider that it may be you who is riding backwards!


Again you are correct, as I may appear to be riding backwards to you.

Or, you may in fact be riding backwards.

It did not take Einstein to figure out that all is relative, the Souix
had it figured out a long time ago.

Yes, a clever bunch.

I have no idea as to your stability outside of this forum. It may simply be
your writing style that leaves an unstable impression. To be honest, you
come across as though you are part of some sort of cult.

As far as writing style, I understand, that it may appear unstable,
for you have seen me take different tacks from time to time. I don't
know if you have done any sailing, but tacking is done to make headway
into an opposing and changing wind. And there has been some wild wind
on this thread about wild places. Tacking was necessary, not for the
purpose of deceit, but inorder to arrive where we are today. I know
that I am still the International Man of Mystery, but we are getting
to know each other better, as the mystery is revealed. Yeah...
Baaby!!!!

Have you ever worked for a carpet cleaning company at which time you went by
the name "Tanya?"

Tanya sounds like a character, but no, I have never worked for a
carpet cleaning company, and I am not Tanya.

You may wish to google on Seinfeld episodes in order to understand this
reference.

In reading, I found that
you have quite a following, between Tanya, Louise, Sharon, and Sandra,
and almost 9000 post, you have made quite a name for yourself. I still
wonder what the secret is for such prolific postings, and that is just
on the usenet, to say nothing of the rest of your posting activity.

I tend to keep my posts a bit more to the point than yourself.

You must be the real superman to do this, and then carry on with your
regular schedule as Clark Kent! When do you ever get time to paddle?

Sadly, I did not get out much this year. My posts will no doubt go down next
year as Julie and I are moving to the waterfront, and thus will surely
paddle on a frequent basis.

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

That particular sig line doesn't help alleviate that impression either.

I would be very interested in your definition of a cult

I'd prefer not to have a discussion about the definition of cults.

From the way you write I picture you with a permanent smile and a vacant
stare.

and what is
your impression of my sig line, how does it bother you?

Respectfully, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

It doesn't "bother" me it just adds to your cultish personality.

You are again so right, I should start a cult where we are happy, and
only look for the good in others, and don't get down on all the
terrible things happening all the time. But instead we are excited to
be alive, and able to live with the faculties we have, to the fullest
of are capabilities. Making no excuses, and laughing allowed when we
screw up. We would even help each other out of the mud and muck of
life, when we fall down, instead of stepping on the neck of a fallen
comrade, and cursing their name. Yeah....Baaby, that's the kind of
cult I would want to belong in. How about you being the first convert,
all you have to do is start smiling!

I spend a lot of time smiling and laughing, but not everything I see is
funny, and serious issues require a serious response from those who believe
that it takes more than "more guns and/or more jesus" to make the world a
better place.

Keenan Wellar wrote in message news:BDCFB1C5.12892%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/28/04 1:10 PM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCE0FAD.12800%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/27/04 8:47 AM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol.
snipped

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

In another discussion, that I tracked down, you were stating that you
were not fluent in French, to which the response was that they doubted
you were fluent in English as well. I begin to wonder the same thing!
At one time, I thought you were Clueless in Canada, now I just wonder!

snipped

look forward to having a reasonable conversation.

That would depend on whether or not you will be speaking within the bounds
of reason.

Reason for one, may be madness for the other, but we can try!

Indeed.

We don't have to try, but yes, we can indeed try, if you would like?

snipped

none of your business.


Keenan, if you post publicly, they become public business.

Let me restate.

While you are obviously free to offer comments on anything you see here, the
idea that you might or might not come between myself and another, and that
you will "let me work it out" with someone else is a rather pompous
offering, in that I never asked you to mediate said communications, not did
I ever consider requesting such a contribution from you.

Keenan, Pompous? You should know about being pompous! As if I would
even want to mediate any communications for you. Retter was doing just
fine calling you the fool, and certainly did not need any help from
me. My only offer was to have a resonable conversation myself, with
someone that I thought was capable of entering into something more
than a ****ing contest. What you do with Retter, is your business, and
I am strictly hands off. There is no might about it, in the future,
you two are on your own.




However
being civil, we turn away from someone ****ing in public, to allow
them their public indecency. I will be glad to allow you and any
others to continue your ****ing contest, but I will exercise my
privilege of not having to watch!

There are different forms of ****ing. I suggest your urine has soaked this
newsgroup rather thoroughly.


And now, you get down and personal with me, and accuse me of soaking
this newsgroup. Hardly, judging from your style, are you in a position
to judge. Check out the following,

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...rovided%2540ho

Who smothers news groups with there ****ing style? Claiming on one
hand to not be able to understand what is clearly said, and then
acting insulted because anyone would question your higher knowledge
and intelligence. Countering and contradicting every point make by
anyone and everyone. I wonder if that is what the experienced posters
were warning me about?


snipped

totally miss, or should I say ignore the true meaning of my post.
snipped

Yeah, great.

Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

It seems that many are confounded by your posting style, not just me!
and I am trying real hard to give you benefit of the doubt, since we
have just met.


Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

Cyberstalking, again pompous on your part, thinking that I would even
care to stalk you. No, I was encouraged to research those who are
participating in a particular discussion. Prior to that I had been
willing to take, and respond to specific statements made in a
discussion thread, at face value, independet of who was making them.
Obvious to me now, is that those who encouraged me to know my
atagonist, had probably had experience with the atagonist before. They
were probably trying to save me from a fruitless discussion.

I may be the fool, to think that there ever was, or still is hope for
a converstion with real content. But then this is the first time that
I have met you on this or any board, so this discussion has been more
of a curiosity to me than anything else. Cyberstalking, not a chance,
just getting my ducks in a line.

What makes Keenan tick? To get to know you as a person, not just an
impersonal post, disassociated from your environment, and all that you
contribute to that environment. I had no previous knowledge or
experience with you, so I researched. Next time, will be different.
Probably I will have to check out someone else. You will not be the
Belle of the Ball!

Besides, there is that word you don't want to discuss, "cult." Is that
your last line of defiance, to throw that word into a discussion, like
a grenade. A power word, from which I should just run and hide, and
coware because Keenan used the word "cult." Sorry, doesn't work for
me! Nice try, but you are going to have to find something else,
bigger, better, faster, stronger, Man of Steel.


And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries".

snipped

That's all very fascinating, but in a fashion that seems typical for you,
you have failed to consider that it may be you who is riding backwards!


Again you are correct, as I may appear to be riding backwards to you.

Or, you may in fact be riding backwards.

It did not take Einstein to figure out that all is relative, the Souix
had it figured out a long time ago.

Yes, a clever bunch.

And some with higher education, haven't figured it out yet! Go figure.



snipped

Have you ever worked for a carpet cleaning company at which time you went by
the name "Tanya?"

Tanya sounds like a character, but no, I have never worked for a
carpet cleaning company, and I am not Tanya.

You may wish to google on Seinfeld episodes in order to understand this
reference.

Well my education continues, I will definitly Google Seinfeld.


In reading, I found that
you have quite a following, between Tanya, Louise, Sharon, and Sandra,
and almost 9000 post, you have made quite a name for yourself. I still
wonder what the secret is for such prolific postings, and that is just
on the usenet, to say nothing of the rest of your posting activity.

I tend to keep my posts a bit more to the point than yourself.

But then the point always remains. What is your point, here and
elsewhere?
What makes you tick? After 9000 post does anyone know, including
yourself?


You must be the real superman to do this, and then carry on with your
regular schedule as Clark Kent! When do you ever get time to paddle?

Sadly, I did not get out much this year. My posts will no doubt go down next
year as Julie and I are moving to the waterfront, and thus will surely
paddle on a frequent basis.

Hey, we're on topic, the waterfront move sounds great. I assume you
mean in Ottawa, what do you mean by water front. Do you have frontage
on a river or lake, or are you just close by? Either way it sounds
great, though I expect that it is pretty cold up there now, and not a
lot of kayaking today.

I googled Ottawa, to learn about your beautiful city, and exactly
where it is located. I know, another dumb American, but I am getting
smarter! I have really never traveled in NE US, so not real familiar
with the geography, and never been able to get to Canada. I can
visualize the St. Lawrence river, but it appears that Ottawa is
located off of the SLR. Are sea going ships able to get into the city
harbor? Does it stay free of ice, or does it ice up? I suppose it
would still be pretty cold water?

When you go kayaking locally, do you go in the Ottawa river, or one of
the other smaller rivers? Seems that dodging big ship could be very
exciting in a very small kayak. It appears that there is water
everywhere you look on the map of that area. You could probably kayak
forever and not see or go everywhere.

Living here in Denver, on the High plains, which is basically a
desert, we have the reservoir, year around, but the river all but
dries up. Of course most of the WW kayakers go up in the mountains
rivers and creeks. But the last few years even that season has been
short, with continuing drought, and low water. There are some other
lakes up in the mtns, that I hope to check out with the Folbot, and do
some camping. But I definitely envy you with all your opportunities
close by.

Keep us posted, and I'll look for pictures and reports on your
website.


Now doesn't that feel much better?


snipped

being the first convert, all you have to do is start smiling!

I spend a lot of time smiling and laughing, but not everything I see is
funny,

Well welcome to the club, er I mean cult then. Now that we got two
members, we need to have a business meeting and come up with a name.
Not really, just joking!

and serious issues require a serious response from those who believe
that it takes more than "more guns and/or more jesus" to make the world a
better place.

Now on a more serious note, just for you. I don't think, that I said
anything about guns, and two, I don't know that Jesus would make the
world a better place. I don't think I said that either. I would say
that Jesus would make you a better person. I do not believe that
religion would do anything for you or anyone, except make you feel
better maybe for a while. What Jesus offers is forever! Two totally
different issues. Religion in whatever form is man reaching up to
"God", Christianity, is God reaching down to man! How high can you
reach?


KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCFB1C5.12892%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/28/04 1:10 PM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in
message
news:BDCE0FAD.12800%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom
at
wrote on 11/27/04 8:47 AM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in
message
news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article ,
Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol.
snipped

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

In another discussion, that I tracked down, you were stating that you
were not fluent in French, to which the response was that they doubted
you were fluent in English as well. I begin to wonder the same thing!
At one time, I thought you were Clueless in Canada, now I just wonder!

Sounds incredibly relevant Tom, whatever the hell it is you are talking
about now.

snipped

look forward to having a reasonable conversation.

That would depend on whether or not you will be speaking within the
bounds
of reason.

Reason for one, may be madness for the other, but we can try!

Indeed.

We don't have to try, but yes, we can indeed try, if you would like?

snipped

none of your business.


Keenan, if you post publicly, they become public business.

Let me restate.

While you are obviously free to offer comments on anything you see here,
the
idea that you might or might not come between myself and another, and
that
you will "let me work it out" with someone else is a rather pompous
offering, in that I never asked you to mediate said communications, not
did
I ever consider requesting such a contribution from you.

Keenan, Pompous? You should know about being pompous! As if I would
even want to mediate any communications for you. Retter was doing just
fine calling you the fool, and certainly did not need any help from
me. My only offer was to have a resonable conversation myself, with
someone that I thought was capable of entering into something more
than a ****ing contest. What you do with Retter, is your business, and
I am strictly hands off. There is no might about it, in the future,
you two are on your own.

Then why comment on it?

However
being civil, we turn away from someone ****ing in public, to allow
them their public indecency. I will be glad to allow you and any
others to continue your ****ing contest, but I will exercise my
privilege of not having to watch!

There are different forms of ****ing. I suggest your urine has soaked
this
newsgroup rather thoroughly.


And now, you get down and personal with me, and accuse me of soaking
this newsgroup.

You went first, Tom. I didn't introduce the ****ing, you did, remember?

Hardly, judging from your style, are you in a position
to judge. Check out the following,

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...rovided%2540ho

A discussion about inflation and oil prices? Geezus Tom, if you wanted to
establishing that I can act ****y when posting on usenet, I could have given
you a post ten times better than that one!

Who smothers news groups with there ****ing style? Claiming on one
hand to not be able to understand what is clearly said

Ah. So whatever you say, however you say it, the other person is at fault if
your intent is not both clearly understood and appreciated. Interesting.

and then
acting insulted because anyone would question your higher knowledge
and intelligence.

Are you talking about the time you babbled on about the meaning of
"extrovert" by chance?

Countering and contradicting every point make by
anyone and everyone. I wonder if that is what the experienced posters
were warning me about?

Oooo....the experienced posters were warning you, were they? Of what,
exactly? That I would surf all over the net trying to find out things about
you so that I could introduce unlimited irrelevancy into the discussion here
on rec.boats.paddle?

snipped

totally miss, or should I say ignore the true meaning of my post.
snipped

Yeah, great.

Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

It seems that many are confounded by your posting style, not just me!

Why does it seem that way? Who is confounded?

and I am trying real hard to give you benefit of the doubt, since we
have just met.

The benefit of what doubt?

Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

Cyberstalking, again pompous on your part, thinking that I would even
care to stalk you. No, I was encouraged to research those who are
participating in a particular discussion.

Encouraged...by whom? Your cult masters? Is something controlling you, Tom?
If so, is there a chance for you to get away from them? How can we help?

Prior to that I had been
willing to take, and respond to specific statements made in a
discussion thread, at face value, independet of who was making them.

OK...

Obvious to me now, is that those who encouraged me to know my
atagonist, had probably had experience with the atagonist before. They
were probably trying to save me from a fruitless discussion.

It sounds like an awful lot of people are concerned about you, Tom.

I may be the fool, to think that there ever was, or still is hope for
a converstion with real content. But then this is the first time that
I have met you on this or any board, so this discussion has been more
of a curiosity to me than anything else. Cyberstalking, not a chance,
just getting my ducks in a line.

What ducks?

What makes Keenan tick? To get to know you as a person, not just an
impersonal post, disassociated from your environment, and all that you
contribute to that environment. I had no previous knowledge or
experience with you, so I researched. Next time, will be different.
Probably I will have to check out someone else. You will not be the
Belle of the Ball!

Resarching by googling in newsgroups is likely to be a very limited means of
getting to know someone, Tom.

Besides, there is that word you don't want to discuss, "cult." Is that
your last line of defiance, to throw that word into a discussion, like
a grenade. A power word, from which I should just run and hide, and
coware because Keenan used the word "cult." Sorry, doesn't work for
me! Nice try, but you are going to have to find something else,
bigger, better, faster, stronger, Man of Steel.

Tom, I can promise you 100% that I was in fact certain that you would not be
the least bit troubled by it.


And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I
do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that
presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject.
Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in
the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries".

snipped

That's all very fascinating, but in a fashion that seems typical for
you,
you have failed to consider that it may be you who is riding
backwards!


Again you are correct, as I may appear to be riding backwards to you.

Or, you may in fact be riding backwards.

It did not take Einstein to figure out that all is relative, the Souix
had it figured out a long time ago.

Yes, a clever bunch.

And some with higher education, haven't figured it out yet! Go figure.

Not surprising in the least.

snipped

Have you ever worked for a carpet cleaning company at which time you
went by
the name "Tanya?"

Tanya sounds like a character, but no, I have never worked for a
carpet cleaning company, and I am not Tanya.

You may wish to google on Seinfeld episodes in order to understand this
reference.

Well my education continues, I will definitly Google Seinfeld.

Excellent!

In reading, I found that
you have quite a following, between Tanya, Louise, Sharon, and Sandra,
and almost 9000 post, you have made quite a name for yourself. I still
wonder what the secret is for such prolific postings, and that is just
on the usenet, to say nothing of the rest of your posting activity.

I tend to keep my posts a bit more to the point than yourself.

But then the point always remains. What is your point, here and
elsewhere?
What makes you tick? After 9000 post does anyone know, including
yourself?

It would depend on the topic at hand, Tom.

You must be the real superman to do this, and then carry on with your
regular schedule as Clark Kent! When do you ever get time to paddle?

Sadly, I did not get out much this year. My posts will no doubt go down
next
year as Julie and I are moving to the waterfront, and thus will surely
paddle on a frequent basis.

Hey, we're on topic, the waterfront move sounds great. I assume you
mean in Ottawa, what do you mean by water front. Do you have frontage
on a river or lake, or are you just close by? Either way it sounds
great, though I expect that it is pretty cold up there now, and not a
lot of kayaking today.

Our back yard (or front yard depending on one's perspective) will in fact be
on the Ottawa River. Very exciting. I intend to paddle until the water
freezes up, at which point a rink will be made and I'll play hockey on it
instead.

I googled Ottawa, to learn about your beautiful city, and exactly
where it is located. I know, another dumb American, but I am getting
smarter! I have really never traveled in NE US, so not real familiar
with the geography, and never been able to get to Canada. I can
visualize the St. Lawrence river, but it appears that Ottawa is
located off of the SLR. Are sea going ships able to get into the city
harbor? Does it stay free of ice, or does it ice up? I suppose it
would still be pretty cold water?

No sea ships. There are a number of areas on the Ottawa that are currently
impassible, although from time to time a plot surfaces to make it fully
navigable.

When you go kayaking locally, do you go in the Ottawa river, or one of
the other smaller rivers? Seems that dodging big ship could be very
exciting in a very small kayak. It appears that there is water
everywhere you look on the map of that area. You could probably kayak
forever and not see or go everywhere.

Tom, I thought you'd been to my kayaking website! Perhaps you should have
spent more time there instead of googling my participation on usenet.

Living here in Denver, on the High plains, which is basically a
desert, we have the reservoir, year around, but the river all but
dries up. Of course most of the WW kayakers go up in the mountains
rivers and creeks. But the last few years even that season has been
short, with continuing drought, and low water. There are some other
lakes up in the mtns, that I hope to check out with the Folbot, and do
some camping. But I definitely envy you with all your opportunities
close by.

Interesting...this is a pretty good whitewater area. I am a "sea kayaker"
myself so often a bit of a trip is in order to get full enjoyment.

Keep us posted, and I'll look for pictures and reports on your
website.

Now doesn't that feel much better?

I was aware that I wasn't feeling well. But if you feel, better, that's
good!

snipped

being the first convert, all you have to do is start smiling!

I spend a lot of time smiling and laughing, but not everything I see is
funny,

Well welcome to the club, er I mean cult then. Now that we got two
members, we need to have a business meeting and come up with a name.
Not really, just joking!

Funny, Tom.

and serious issues require a serious response from those who believe
that it takes more than "more guns and/or more jesus" to make the world a
better place.

Now on a more serious note, just for you. I don't think, that I said
anything about guns, and two, I don't know that Jesus would make the
world a better place.

Sorry Tom, that was actually a generic comment.

I don't think I said that either. I would say
that Jesus would make you a better person. I do not believe that
religion would do anything for you or anyone, except make you feel
better maybe for a while. What Jesus offers is forever! Two totally
different issues. Religion in whatever form is man reaching up to
"God", Christianity, is God reaching down to man! How high can you
reach?


KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

Tom, take it slow, you are sounding scary again.

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
And now, you get down and personal with me, and accuse me of soaking
this newsgroup. Hardly, judging from your style, are you in a position
to judge. Check out the following,

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...rovided%2540ho


Umm, Tom, I'm going to put on my 'guide' hat here, because you need one at
this point.

If you insist on pasting single snippets from other threads (which is
generally frowned upon in Usenet, (see below)), or if you want to paste long
URLs, use a shortcutting site. For example, go to www.tinyurl.com or
www.makeashorterlink.com and paste the monster link in, and it will give you
a shortcut to the same site. The entire above link was abbreviated to
http://tinyurl.com/55543, for example.

Everything you post on usenet is replicated on millions of servers
worldwide. The long URLs are considered a tremendous waste of bandwidth;
doesn't seem like much, but when you multiply it by all the times it happens
on all newsgroups, times all the computers it happens on, times all the days
and all the years it happens, you get the idea of why there are protocols.

That's also the reason people usually cut threads down instead of just
replicating the entire thread each time. Its not to be rude, and shouldn't
be to be deflective (although granted, it often gets used for that), but to
be efficient.


Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

It seems that many are confounded by your posting style, not just me!
and I am trying real hard to give you benefit of the doubt, since we
have just met.


Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

Cyberstalking, again pompous on your part, thinking that I would even
care to stalk you. No, I was encouraged to research those who are
participating in a particular discussion. Prior to that I had been
willing to take, and respond to specific statements made in a
discussion thread, at face value, independet of who was making them.
Obvious to me now, is that those who encouraged me to know my
atagonist, had probably had experience with the atagonist before. They
were probably trying to save me from a fruitless discussion.


Umm, that would be me that encouraged you. Let me be more specific, because
I was definately not trying to warn you away from a fruitless experience
with an antagonist, be it Keenan, Wilko, me or anyone else. I was trying to
help YOU from becoming a clueless newbie, repeating rather common newbie
errors, and unwittingly (or otherwise) finding yourSELF as the antagonist.

(Now, I know you can split hairs and say "I said "MY antagonist", etc, but
my message is the same: you are misconstruing why I encouraged you to
research people.)

First of all, what you are doing to Keenan, as much as you might not intend
it to be, IS a form of Cyberstalking. What makes it so is that your intent
is to cause him harm: in specific, you are trying to discredit or compromise
him by researching his previous posts and using what he said against him. If
he goes a single step further and asks you to cease, you are legally (in the
US, at least) required to do so. Otherwise, you can be reported to net.abuse
sites, and your Usenet priviledges will be revoked. There are many faqs out
there with advice on how to use Usenet and avoid common pitfalls like how to
avoid cyberstalking, how to avoid plagarizing people, when you can and
cannot repost what people have written (for example, you should not post
content of private emails to you), and how to conduct reasonable
conversations. It may SEEM like a people are arguing a certain way here, but
the truth is that you are crossing all sorts of lines regularly, and
apparently (I hope) not even knowing it. There is a great difference between
'researching' and 'cyberstalking'.

What you are intending to do seems reasonable on the surface: to find out
about who he is from his previous posts. But, as you said, with 9000+ posts
under his belt, taking a few phrases out of context is at best bad form, and
at worse, really really bad form. Now, in your defense, I will acknowledge
that this is a common thing to do with some things like Biblical references:
people go nuts over things like "In 5th Thessalations, chapter 9, verse 6,
subparagraph b, clause 6, the Great Poohbah used the word "OUT" instead of
"OUTSIDE", which clearly means that he is referring to....." etc etc.
But in usenet (and in real life), this type of nitpicking detail is pretty
obtruse and inaccurate. Someone could come in, and just from your own dozen
or so posts (note the difference: I'm guessing you have a dozen or so posts
which clearly means I have not spent the evening pouring over statistic
sites, trying to find out as much about you as possible to be used against
you in some argument, but instead am just tossing out a polite
conversational approximation...very different imagery, no?) Anyway, in your
own dozen or so posts, before you reconsidered your rocky arrival here,
there is PLENTY of harvestable fruit for someone to throw at you, in detail,
to win some lame argument later on. And if someone DID do that, you'd pretty
quickly see how offensive and especially how inaccurate it is.



I may be the fool, to think that there ever was, or still is hope for
a converstion with real content. But then this is the first time that
I have met you on this or any board, so this discussion has been more
of a curiosity to me than anything else. Cyberstalking, not a chance,
just getting my ducks in a line.

What makes Keenan tick? To get to know you as a person, not just an
impersonal post, disassociated from your environment, and all that you
contribute to that environment. I had no previous knowledge or
experience with you, so I researched. Next time, will be different.
Probably I will have to check out someone else. You will not be the
Belle of the Ball!


See, there it is again. You just crossed the line again: you are making a
'threat' (although you don't see it that way, I'm sure) to 'Cyberstalk'
someone else. Yes, you *should* research people: not knowing Wilko was from
outside the US was a stupid error on your part, especially as you flamed him
for something, assuming he was American. By 'research', I mean to learn
about people so you know who you are discussing, not to gather picayune
'ammo' to later throw at them to try to win some argument points. And
especially not to go LOOKING for ammo that fits whatever specific argument
that you are currently having. When you were accused of being 'contrary',
Keenan was trying to point out to you that you are doing all sorts of things
(here in rbp, at least) that are way contrary to convention and protocol,
and worse yet, you don't even know it. Your response was to continue doing
it.

And even more, you are doing the exact thing that you claim to despise in
the 'elite intellectual liberal': you are taking a small amount of
knowledge, accurate or not, and twisting it to serve your purpose, and
defiantly digging in with your point of view (in this case, your use of
quotations and your posting style).

You need to read some Usenet faqs, and you really ought to consider what you
are really here for. Its looking like you are trying to learn about arguing
on Usenet, but (maybe in typical ENTP style?) by creating your own set of
rules, roughly shaped on twisting the advice of others and your own
observations to your own advantage. All your discussions so far have the
same imagery to me, like seeing someone who is obviously new at something
standing in a crowd, yelling their own 'expert' opinion at the top of their
lungs, while pretty much everyone around them is rolling their eyes at the
newbie with the big ego and poor skills.

Just trying to help out; whatever point you are trying to make with Keenan
is lost in the noise.

YMMV.
--riverman

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...

Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,
http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

I think your cyberstalking may have offended the individual who made the
creations that you linked from. It's just not a good practice, and if you
continue it, I suspect you will offend others as well.

Tinkerntom wrote:

In another discussion, that I tracked down,

Wow! What is your secret weapon? Are you the Internet Administrator? You
are all powerful, no?

you were stating that you
were not fluent in French, to which the response was that they doubted
you were fluent in English as well. I begin to wonder the same thing!

At one time, I thought you were Clueless in Canada, now I just wonder!

Yes, well let me help you: The "R" on your shoe stands for "Right"...I'll
give you 24 hours to figure out what the "L" stands for.



Keenan, Pompous?

No, Keenan Wellar...are you stupid?

You should know about being pompous! As if I would
even want to mediate any communications for you.

Yet being antagonistic and petulant is more productive?

Retter was doing just
fine calling you the fool, and certainly did not need any help from
me.

Then shut the **** up, why don't you?

My only offer was to have a resonable conversation myself, with
someone that I thought was capable of entering into something more
than a ****ing contest.

Yes, well all your name-calling certainly supports that staement! You are a
master of debate!

What you do with Retter, is your business, and
I am strictly hands off. There is no might about it, in the future,
you two are on your own.

Again, please shut the **** up then.


And now, you get down and personal with me, and accuse me of soaking
this newsgroup.

Yes, that was such a personal shot! You should call his ISP and get him
kicked!


It seems that many are confounded by your posting style, not just me!
and I am trying real hard to give you benefit of the doubt, since we
have just met.

OK, go back and finish Grade 7, then try reading it again, dip****.



Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

Cyberstalking, again pompous on your part, thinking that I would even
care to stalk you.

Yet you reply to each and every one of his posts...methinks you're in love!

What makes Keenan tick? To get to know you as a person, not just an
impersonal post, disassociated from your environment, and all that you
contribute to that environment. I had no previous knowledge or
experience with you, so I researched. Next time, will be different.

What the ****? Are you really that self-important. What does any of this
have to do with boating anyways?

Probably I will have to check out someone else. You will not be the
Belle of the Ball!

Oh, a stalker scorned!


Besides, there is that word you don't want to discuss, "cult." Is that
your last line of defiance, to throw that word into a discussion, like
a grenade.

Like 'pompous' and '****y', the way you have been doing? How's the view
from so high on your horse?

A power word, from which I should just run and hide, and
coware because Keenan used the word "cult." Sorry, doesn't work for
me! Nice try, but you are going to have to find something else,
bigger, better, faster, stronger, Man of Steel.

You are clearly delusional.



And some with higher education, haven't figured it out yet! Go figure.

Are you still talking about your english comprehension skills? Boy, you are
hard on yourself.



Well my education continues, I will definitly Google Seinfeld.

I'm surprised you can spell "Google"


But then the point always remains. What is your point, here and
elsewhere?
What makes you tick? After 9000 post does anyone know, including
yourself?

I think you have a crush on Keenan...

KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

You mean POS?

Boatin' Buddy!