Doug Kanter wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


I've been in situations where Union work rules just got in the way of
simple tasks that any bozo could do - from electrical cords to
erecting a display booth - silly, stupid things that are only designed
to keep somebody busy.


Like a girls volleyball tournament that was held at the Philadelphia
Convention Center.

Following quoted from Philadelphia Daily News:

Its organizers can set up a complete volleyball court in an hour or less
with eight 14-year-old girls. But not in our Convention Center. Here, it
took six union laborers two hours a court at a cost of $65 per person
per hour. Because the four barrels holding down the volleyball poles are
filled with water, in Philadelphia this means you involve two plumbers
for two hours each to fill and place the four barrels needed for each court.

The bottom line: $135,000 for 30 courts as compared to $15,000 for 54
courts in Baltimore!

"John P Reber" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
...


I've been in situations where Union work rules just got in the way of
simple tasks that any bozo could do - from electrical cords to
erecting a display booth - silly, stupid things that are only designed
to keep somebody busy.


Like a girls volleyball tournament that was held at the Philadelphia
Convention Center.

Following quoted from Philadelphia Daily News:

Its organizers can set up a complete volleyball court in an hour or less
with eight 14-year-old girls. But not in our Convention Center. Here, it
took six union laborers two hours a court at a cost of $65 per person per
hour. Because the four barrels holding down the volleyball poles are
filled with water, in Philadelphia this means you involve two plumbers for
two hours each to fill and place the four barrels needed for each court.

The bottom line: $135,000 for 30 courts as compared to $15,000 for 54
courts in Baltimore!

But didn't you know that the union guys spent 3 years learning about the
hazards of water? And Harry would argue that they filled the barrels with
water better than a non union person could.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Every worker on the site
was wearing steel-toed shows, safety glasses, and a hardhat. Building
trash was picked up off the decks and put in barrels, the crane
operator
had two helpers, the sidewalk was properly controlled. *This* was the
site of a GC who wanted to keep his workers' comp premiums low.

On the other hand, there's Home Depot. I was there two nights ago with
my
500-foot-long list of things for the new house. I turned down the tile
aisle
and saw a guy about to cut some tile for a customer. I wandered over
because
I'd never seen one of those machines in operation. The professional
sales
associate wasn't wearing goggles. The customer said "Hang on a
second....what about goggles?" The PSA says "The machine pretty much
just
throws off water." Pretty much. He starts it up, moves the tile to the
blade, and a small chip zings over his shoulder and makes a little
"clack"
as it hit the girder of the shelves behind us. :-) The guy just kept
going.
The other customer and I just looked at each other and shook our heads.




Maybe your Home Despot sales clerk was a high-tech worker until last
year, when his US employer took advantage of a tax credit to ship his
job overseas. So the fella took advantage of one of those Bush
retraining programs.

We have a wonderful local hardware store that I am fearful will be hurt
next year when a Home Despot is scheduled to open a few miles away. But
maybe not...the store survives on providing knowledge and service, and
you won't find much of either at the big box stores. A couple of weeks
ago, I was up there buying four sacks of fall lawn fertilizer, and got
to the cash register when I realized I had forgotten my wallet. "No
problem, Mr. Krause...just pay for it the next time you are in..."

Try that at Home Despot.

There are two real hardware stores within 5 minutes of HD here. They're both
busier than ever. I use them on weekends, but during the week, they close
early, so HD gets the money.

There was a third store that was the best I've ever seen. It was a 3 minute
walk from my first house. The owners (husband & wife) taught me everything I
know about house maintenance, and probably saved me a few thousand bucks & a
lot of time I would've wasted trying to get advice at Hechinger's.

Unfortunately, the store was on the border of two neighborhoods. There are
black people, and then there are black people whose minds are stuck in the
1960s and who think Al Sharpton is god. That last type - they'd come to the
store and say "You made me these keys yesterday, but I don't need 'em. I
want my money back." They'd get REALLY ****y when he'd point to the sign
saying "No refunds on keys". He'd politely explain that if the key didn't
work, he'd be happy to make them another one, but that usually didn't
satisfy the "customer". I was there one day when a woman of grandma age said
"You cracker asshole! You got a real problem with black folks, don't ya?"
The owner of the gun shop next door heard the ruckus and stopped over, just
in case.....

Once, he explained to another key return customer that he was a licensed
locksmith, and that if he took the time to examine returned keys, he could
probably find a few that he could reuse, but with a busy store, that wasn't
likely to happen. The customer said "That's bull****!" and stormed out the
door. Another time, I watched as a woman pulled out one of those
multi-compartment drawers full of assorted washers, let it dump on the
floor, smiled, said "Oops!" in a really snotty way, and walked out the door.
My son was with me that day. He was 4 at the time, so he was close to the
ground. He sorted out the washers and put them back in the drawer.

Finally, the owner and his wife had enough and closed the place.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:16:19 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
. ..
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:07:34 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
.. .

I've been in situations where Union work rules just got in the way
of
simple tasks that any bozo could do - from electrical cords to
erecting a display booth - silly, stupid things that are only
designed
to keep somebody busy.

That stuff's just plain stupid. The audio store where I used to work
would
have a booth at the car & boat shows here. The convention center rep
gave
us
a speech about how we weren't supposed to plug in our equipment. An
electrician had to do it. Once, one of us wired a fat car amp to the
display
speakers with 18 gauge speaker wire. The boss told him to use the
fancy
Monster Cable. Someone came over and said we had to wait for an
electrician.
He turned out to be wrong (because it didn't involve an AC line), but
the
guy still acted like the world was about to end.

The funny thing is that we were all installers with 10 years' of
experience.
The electrician probably would've burned his car down installing some
of
that stuff.

Speaking of which, we once had a car come in for repair. The old lady
said
the radio kept cutting off & on. It was an aftermarket unit. When I
got
under the dash, I found all sorts of nasty stuff, obviously the work
of a
slob. I cleaned it all up in about 10 minutes. Then, I told the lady
"Whoever did this was a real hack. Totally incompetent. Don't let him
touch
your car again". She gives me this look and says "My son did it, and
I'll
have you know he's an engineer with NASA".

Oh boy. I didn't charge her. :-)

Some day we'll have to get together over pizza and swap stories about
engineers and other highly skilled technical people. :)

I've got a ton of them.

I require anchovies.

You can have anything you want on yours.

Later,

Tom




If you guys decide upon Pepe's on Wooster Street in New Haven...I might
join you. Pepe's has the pizza worth burning the roof of your mouth
upon, to coin a phrase.

Only if there's a strip club nearby. And, if you invite JohnH, I'll kill
you, Harry. I'll cut your heart out with the sharp edge of the pizza crust.

:-)

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:11:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

Finally, the owner and his wife had enough and closed the place.

Your story is the elephant in the living room.

What????

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:27:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"WaIIy" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:11:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

Finally, the owner and his wife had enough and closed the place.

Your story is the elephant in the living room.

What????


Reading your story was interesting and not uncommon from what I've seen
and heard around here.
The elephant in the living room is the main theme of your story that
many people deny.

Oh...OK. Actually, even black leaders including our excellent mayor are
talking about it here lately, which is refreshing.

"JimH" wrote in message ...
"Harry Krause" piedtypecase@a href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=yahoo%20com" onmouseover="window.status='yahoo.com'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"yahoo.com/a wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
This week, we had about 1000 square feet of the lower level of our
house
tiled in a href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=ceramic%20tile"
onmouseover="window.status='ceramic tile'; return true;"
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"ceramic tile/a. This is
the area that comprises my a
href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=home%20office"
onmouseover="window.status='home office'; return true;"
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"home office/a.


*Lower level* of your house? So you had your basement tiled. Why not
just
say so.

And it sounds like your first quote was off base. I would guess even a
non
union company would have beat it.

What is so special about laying tile that you need to be union?

Just my guess: How about the presence of formal training (apprenticeship)
arrangements? That means something. Otherwise, you could end up hiring
someone who, after discovering they were pretty good at it after doing
their
own home, decided to open a business.

Union tilesetters undergo a formal, three-year apprenticeship program. A
lot of that training has to do with the safe handling of various
chemicals that are rarely, if ever, used during tilesetting or
maintenance in single-family homes.

Pure bull****.


Very few union tilesetters work single-family residential, although I
have foudn the crews I've hired in my minor-league homebuilding ventures
to be more skilled and efficient than the non-union crews.

It is kind of humorous that Hertvik is commenting here...if you saw a
photo of his house, you'd conclude that no one with a sense of design,
taste or construction skill was involved...but, hey, taste is
subjective,eh?


We have a 4,000 square foot house constructed in 1992. If you have a
picture to post please do. I have no idea how you would have obtained it,
but as you have been stalking me recently I guess nothing is beyond belief
with you.

Tile setting is not difficult. No need for a 3 year apprenticeship program
unless one is mentally challenged.

As usual, you are wrong. Dead wrong. Look below, taken from
http://www.calmis.cahwnet.gov/file/occguide/TILESET.HTM



ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS AND TRAINING

Tile Setters usually begin as helpers until they enter an
apprenticeship
program. After completing a three or four-year program that includes
both
practical and classroom education, the apprentice can advance to full
journey-level status. An apprenticeship program usually consists of
on-the-job training and related classroom instruction in blueprint
reading,
layout, and basic mathematics.

To become an apprentice, a candidate must be at least 18 years old and
be
physically able to perform the work of the trade. Good vision, color
perception, and manual dexterity are important assets.

Though there are no formal educational requirements, employers usually
prefer high school graduates. Job applicants should know basic math
and
be able to read and write. Helpful high school classes include shop
and
mechanical drawing. The ability to read blueprints is also a
desirable
skill.

In areas where there are no union apprenticeship programs, many Tile
Setters acquire skills informally by working as helpers to experienced
workers.


So, as you can see, you, again, don't have a damned clue what you are
talking about.

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"JimH" wrote in message
...
"Harry Krause" piedtypecase@a
href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=yahoo%20com"
onmouseover="window.status='yahoo.com'; return true;"
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"yahoo.com/a wrote in
message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
This week, we had about 1000 square feet of the lower level of our
house
tiled in a
href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=ceramic%20tile"
onmouseover="window.status='ceramic tile'; return true;"
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"ceramic tile/a. This is
the area that comprises my a
href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=home%20office"
onmouseover="window.status='home office'; return true;"
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"home office/a.


*Lower level* of your house? So you had your basement tiled. Why
not
just
say so.

And it sounds like your first quote was off base. I would guess even
a
non
union company would have beat it.

What is so special about laying tile that you need to be union?

Just my guess: How about the presence of formal training
(apprenticeship)
arrangements? That means something. Otherwise, you could end up hiring
someone who, after discovering they were pretty good at it after doing
their
own home, decided to open a business.

Union tilesetters undergo a formal, three-year apprenticeship program.
A
lot of that training has to do with the safe handling of various
chemicals that are rarely, if ever, used during tilesetting or
maintenance in single-family homes.

Pure bull****.


Very few union tilesetters work single-family residential, although I
have foudn the crews I've hired in my minor-league homebuilding
ventures
to be more skilled and efficient than the non-union crews.

It is kind of humorous that Hertvik is commenting here...if you saw a
photo of his house, you'd conclude that no one with a sense of design,
taste or construction skill was involved...but, hey, taste is
subjective,eh?


We have a 4,000 square foot house constructed in 1992. If you have a
picture to post please do. I have no idea how you would have obtained it,
but as you have been stalking me recently I guess nothing is beyond
belief
with you.

Tile setting is not difficult. No need for a 3 year apprenticeship
program
unless one is mentally challenged.

As usual, you are wrong. Dead wrong. Look below, taken from
http://www.calmis.cahwnet.gov/file/occguide/TILESET.HTM



ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS AND TRAINING

Tile Setters usually begin as helpers until they enter an
apprenticeship
program. After completing a three or four-year program that includes
both
practical and classroom education, the apprentice can advance to full
journey-level status. An apprenticeship program usually consists of
on-the-job training and related classroom instruction in blueprint
reading,
layout, and basic mathematics.

To become an apprentice, a candidate must be at least 18 years old and
be
physically able to perform the work of the trade. Good vision, color
perception, and manual dexterity are important assets.

Though there are no formal educational requirements, employers usually
prefer high school graduates. Job applicants should know basic math
and
be able to read and write. Helpful high school classes include shop
and
mechanical drawing. The ability to read blueprints is also a
desirable
skill.

In areas where there are no union apprenticeship programs, many Tile
Setters acquire skills informally by working as helpers to experienced
workers.


So, as you can see, you, again, don't have a damned clue what you are
talking about.

I never disputed the fact that they had a 3 year apprenticeship, only that
the trade is certainly not one requiring 3 years of training as tile setting
is not a skilled trade imo.

Try reading for content next time and stick to the issue 'Bassy.

"JimH" wrote in message
...

only that
the trade is certainly not one requiring 3 years of training as tile
setting
is not a skilled trade imo.

That's rich. Ever seen a tile job that falls into the category of cob job,
like you see in perhaps 90% of hotel bathrooms and 50% of homes?

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"JimH" wrote in message
...
"Harry Krause" piedtypecase@a
href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=yahoo%20com"
onmouseover="window.status='yahoo.com'; return true;"
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"yahoo.com/a wrote in
message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
This week, we had about 1000 square feet of the lower level of
our
house
tiled in a

href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=ceramic%20tile"
onmouseover="window.status='ceramic tile'; return true;"
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"ceramic tile/a. This is
the area that comprises my a
href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=home%20office"
onmouseover="window.status='home office'; return true;"
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;"home office/a.


*Lower level* of your house? So you had your basement tiled. Why
not
just
say so.

And it sounds like your first quote was off base. I would guess
even
a
non
union company would have beat it.

What is so special about laying tile that you need to be union?

Just my guess: How about the presence of formal training
(apprenticeship)
arrangements? That means something. Otherwise, you could end up
hiring
someone who, after discovering they were pretty good at it after
doing
their
own home, decided to open a business.

Union tilesetters undergo a formal, three-year apprenticeship
program.
A
lot of that training has to do with the safe handling of various
chemicals that are rarely, if ever, used during tilesetting or
maintenance in single-family homes.

Pure bull****.


Very few union tilesetters work single-family residential, although I
have foudn the crews I've hired in my minor-league homebuilding
ventures
to be more skilled and efficient than the non-union crews.

It is kind of humorous that Hertvik is commenting here...if you saw a
photo of his house, you'd conclude that no one with a sense of
design,
taste or construction skill was involved...but, hey, taste is
subjective,eh?


We have a 4,000 square foot house constructed in 1992. If you have a
picture to post please do. I have no idea how you would have obtained
it,
but as you have been stalking me recently I guess nothing is beyond
belief
with you.

Tile setting is not difficult. No need for a 3 year apprenticeship
program
unless one is mentally challenged.

As usual, you are wrong. Dead wrong. Look below, taken from
http://www.calmis.cahwnet.gov/file/occguide/TILESET.HTM



ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS AND TRAINING

Tile Setters usually begin as helpers until they enter an
apprenticeship
program. After completing a three or four-year program that includes
both
practical and classroom education, the apprentice can advance to full
journey-level status. An apprenticeship program usually consists of
on-the-job training and related classroom instruction in blueprint
reading,
layout, and basic mathematics.

To become an apprentice, a candidate must be at least 18 years old and
be
physically able to perform the work of the trade. Good vision, color
perception, and manual dexterity are important assets.

Though there are no formal educational requirements, employers usually
prefer high school graduates. Job applicants should know basic math
and
be able to read and write. Helpful high school classes include shop
and
mechanical drawing. The ability to read blueprints is also a
desirable
skill.

In areas where there are no union apprenticeship programs, many Tile
Setters acquire skills informally by working as helpers to experienced
workers.


So, as you can see, you, again, don't have a damned clue what you are
talking about.

I never disputed the fact that they had a 3 year apprenticeship, only that
the trade is certainly not one requiring 3 years of training as tile
setting
is not a skilled trade imo.

Try reading for content next time and stick to the issue 'Bassy.

Asslicker ought to read his own posts......

"In areas where there are no union apprenticeship programs, many Tile
Setters acquire skills informally by working as helpers to experienced
workers."

Pretty much sums up your point that there is no NEED for an apprenticeship
program.

ONce again, asslicker shows why he retains the crown as "King of the NG
idiots"